Tang Soo Do Dobaks

[Crysto84]

I am doing some research on Tang Soo Do Dobaks. Some schools wear black trim and belts while others wear midnight blue. Was it black or midnight blue in the beginning? Is it a Tang Soo Do dobak or a Moo Duk Kwan dobak or a Soo Bahk Do dobak? Who started the blue and what is the history of the midnight blue dobaks.

I'm a Cho Dan and we wear the black trim. I am debating on whether to use the black or the midnight blue when I open my own school.

I am acutally thinking about using the Tae Kwon Do V-neck dobaks for Gup ranks. I am also thinking about requiring black belts to have 2 dobaks. One a TKD black trim V-neck for working out and I was thinking about using the midnight blue trim and belt for a formal dobak like for exams and siminars and such. The thing I like about the v-necks is that you don't have to worry about fixing them like the traditional dobaks. Especially with children. Kids always are having troubles with keeping the dobaks together.

[pennmartkd]

I've seen both in TSD. And I've heard a number of interpretations of what the significance of colors means and their origin. For me the most relevant is that the black signifies a completion with all colors coming together to make black, whereas the midnight blue being not completely dark signifies that there is still much to learn, and therefore our training is a continuous journey that is never technically "complete."

When I did TSD black belts wore black pants with white tops trimmed in midnight blue and the belts were midnight blue.

I think it's really a matter of preference. When it comes to your own school, I'd say not to get too caught up in the dressings and focus more on the content of what you teach.

Example: I have Dan ranking in Tang Soo Do and Hap Ki Do, but teach Tae Kwon Do as that is my primary art. My students wear a traditional black dobok(not V neck). Black belts have the option of a white top with black trim but it's not mandated. I personally wear an all black dobok. It's simple and we don't really get too caught up in it.

Always remember, it's not the uniform that counts, it's the one wearing it.

[Crysto84]

Thanks for the information. Martial Arts is really about the training. Not the uniform and not the belt. We just use uniforms and belts as identification. If you take a black belt student he is still a black belt regardless if is wearing a uniform and belt. You can also identify a students level of training and experience by observing them. We just use those uniforms and belts to be more organized. I do think people get to wrapped up in belts. They end up training for the belt and not for the training. So when they get to black belt where you have to wait a few years to earn your next rank they tend to quit.

[Eliz]

One of the TSD schools in this area uses Midnight Blue trim dobaks and belts as well. On one occasion I asked the owner (a former TKD student of mine) what the significance was and he told me straight up he likes the look of it and nothing more.

[jjaje]

When I started Tang Soo Do in 1985, It was with the Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do system under I believe Kim's Karate. Dan ranks there were midnight blue. Reason given was as others mentioned, black was a "finished" color, or a place where you could go no further.

However, it could simply be that the first shipment of belts were blue instead of black, so the association just went with it. This may sound ridicules but I recall a story about how another art got orange belts that way. The yellow belt order was messed up, and they came out orange, and a real good deal was made for them.

We eventually switched to the WTDSA (World Tang Soo Do Association) under Jae Chul Shin, which uses Black colored dan ranks.

As I recall, Green and Red belts wore matching lapel trim. (In MDKTSD that would be 6th-1st gup). Dan ranks wore full trim (Lapels, sleeves and bottom of dobahk). In WTSDA, there is a brown and blue. Brown also wears trim. Blue is Cho Dan Bo and is "Black Belt Candidate" and wears no trim.

Personally, I don't like the white uniform tops, with black trim matched with a colored gup rank belt. It just looks like bad color coordination. I've never used a V-neck top, but my opinion is if you go with a pullover, might as well be any pullover.

[pennmartkd]

I agree with the fashion police statement about black trim being rather hideous with a green or red belt. For me, if you're going with trim, make it uniform to the color of the belt so there isn't confusion to an outsider looking in. Not so much for the clashing colors aspect(though it is indeed very present), but for the consistency piece.

One of the things I always thought cool in my TSD training was that there were relatively few belt colors, just levels within the belt. I think in terms of a student liking the novel "look" of the uniform or belt, allowing the green or red trim works since the color is worn for such an extended period of time.

Along these lines, my kids when they get black belt have black with a white stripe through it. They work through additional colors to fill out techniques in the older curriculum until they get solid black. At solid black they have the option(though not mandated) to have some embroidery on it. I actually discourage anyone from embroidering the belts with the stripe through the middle as it's worn for a relatively short time as opposed to the solid black which is worn for quite a while

[Crysto84]

I am planning on using the White v-neck for Gup ranks and black v-necks for Dan ranks. For Dans they will have two dobaks. A work out dobak which will be the Black v-neck. They will wear a black belt with a horizontal stripe down the middle according to their Dan Rank. White for 1st, yellow for 2nd, green for 3rd, and red for 4th and up. They will also have a formal dobak. Which will be the traditional dobak with Midnight blue trim. They will have a midnight blue belt. Rank will be shown with white tape. 1st-3rd will be the white tape on the end of belt. 4th and up will be a midnight blue belt with a horizontal red stripe down the center.

The work out dobak will be for classes and such. The formal dobak will be for exams, siminars, and so forth. So I guess I will be using both Black and midnight blue.

[rick_tsdmdk]

Sounds like you are going to have more uniforms than the military.

I would give serious thought to sticking with one type.

[Crysto84]

Sounds like you are going to have more uniforms than the military.

I would give serious thought to sticking with one type.
I understand what you're saying. I would be using a total of 3 different dobaks. When students become a black belt they would need to buy just the tops for the black v-neck and the blue trim. They would keep their white pants. If they want to buy another pair of pants thats optional. You can get just the tops for a fairly low price. I found a place you can buy just the top for about $15. Thats for the V-necks. The traditional black or blue trim jackets are about $35 just for the top. Its because they are basically a specialty item that is custom made.

A lot of Tang Soo Do schools use a white traditional dobak. When a student reaches green belt they get a green trim dobak and then when they get their red belt they get a red trim dobak. Then when they get their dan rank they either get black trim or blue trim. So thats about 4 dobaks. Thats more than I would have.

They school I currently train at uses white traditional dobaks and then you get red trim for red belt and then black trim for black belt. so thats three dobaks there.

It might be cheaper to put the trim yourself on the white dobak but it becomes a hassle if you ask me.

How many dobaks does your dojang use?

[jjaje]

..snip..
A lot of Tang Soo Do schools use a white traditional dobak. When a student reaches green belt they get a green trim dobak and then when they get their red belt they get a red trim dobak. Then when they get their dan rank they either get black trim or blue trim. So thats about 4 dobaks. Thats more than I would have.

..sbip..

How many dobaks does your dojang use?

Actually, the green and red trim (Brown too if applicable) was sewn onto a regular white uniform by my mother. All the students back then in our club did it that way. You couldn't buy uniforms with trim other than black (the midnight blue trim was done by hand also). So it didn't require so many uniform purchases. Unless you bought the really inexpensive dobak, you'd end up replacing it regularly as they didn't hold up so well.

Personally, I'm not entirely keen on the idea of paying someone my hard earned money to have them tell me how many uniforms I have to buy. I wouldn't be too keen, as a paying customer, to be told I need two new uniforms once reaching dan rank, including two different belts. Plus a new belt for every new dan rank. However, I understand some people do prefer that kind of thing, and that's good for them. Since I do believe in capitalism, that's great to meet the needs of that group.

[Eliz]

How many dobaks does your dojang use?

One.

HKD - Heavy white Judo style jacket with whatever pants you want (white or black)

TKD - White competition style V-neck. Black belts can have black trim on the V-neck if they choose. No patches, no school logo, no identifying marks whatsoever except the manufacturers logo.

In previous TKD schools the instructors could wear all black heavy weight - Ironman style dobaks. The current school I teach in the instructor can show up wearing sweat pants and Body Armor style shirts. :D I like this school!

I am a little concerned about the prices you quoted.

The only dobaks I know of in that price range will not hold up well at all. Although I admit they are ideal for very young students as they will grow more rapidly and need to replace dobaks more frequently, I would NEVER recommend them for teens or adults.

Think torn, frayed and covered in sweat stains in no time flat. :(

[rick_tsdmdk]

I wear a black uniform, my students wear either black or white.

At Dan level, they can wear the traditional trimmed uniform if they choose to.

[Crysto84]

Well I am still tossing it around. The first Tang Soo Do uniform I got 8 years ago was all white. It is a middleweight uniform and it only cost $35. It is still in good condition. As far as uniforms for Judo and other grappling exersises I wouldn't recommend it. But for regular exercises such as blocking, kicking, punching, hyungs and so for they are fine. I won't be teaching a lot of grappling at least not at the beginning. As for prices of uniforms for grappling you will pay high prices around $100 and up for good uniforms. It all depends what you want to use the uniforms for.

[Ken Marsh]

I think at this point in the history of Tang Soo Do, it depends on how traditional you want to portray the style. As indicated in earlier posts, some schools/organizations have went to Black Trim and belts. Thorugh discussions with ealy members of JC Shin's organization he originally used Blue and changed, about the same time he introduced standard One-steps and Hol Sin Sols. They commetned it was to help with the marketing and acceptablity within the US Market.

I had discussed this matter with Grandmaster Jae Joon Kim, Dan #38, World Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo D Federation, prior to his death. As you can tell by his dan number, he was one of the earlier TSD black belts. He shared that he was in on the original conversations with GM Hwang Kee. This is what he told me.
1) As posted earlier, the thought was Black was all inclusive and could not absorb anything else. This was not was what they wanted to convey.
2) Black was being used by all the Japanese styles, I guess there is no need to explain this one.
3) Black is associated with death, (clothing worn during morning) and they did not want to be associated with that either.

His organization , World Traditional Tang Soo Do Federation, headed by his son GM Saul Kim, still wears Blue to this day. They don't plan to change to the V-neck either.

Don't know how that will affect your decision, but for me, a traditionalist.... I wear the Midnight Blue. At least when people see it, they either know it is TSD or they ask .. then I get to share with them.

Respectfully
Ken Marsh

[torbjork]

I've been told (although it's pretty much unsubstantiated and might very well be untrue) that the midnight blue belts, and consequently the midnight blue trim, in Moo Duk Kwan came about because Hwang Kee received a lot of heat from Japanese Shotokan leaders at the time for a) using their kata in his art and b) awarding black belts in something that looked a lot like Shotokan karate without (in their view) having the authority to do so. Solution, award blue belts and change the forms.

Just stirring the pot ;)

By the way, if you have a decent workout, you'll still have to "fix" even a V-neck. Sometimes I find that the MDK uniform stays in place better, as the cloth is much stiffer and heavier.

Any student with more than 6 months training experience would be wise to have two doboks, so that they always have a clean one on hand. I don't really see the point of a "formal" dobok, if you have an event that's really hoity-toity make them wear business suits instead. A dobok is for working out in, not to appear at a formal event, Kuk Sool Won uniforms notwithstanding :D

[BUDO BULLDOG]

Hello,

To add in my dobak in to the conversation:

[1] We were the traditional white dobak, for all students
[2] Black belts can wear combination of black and white
[3] The black belt dobak has black trim
[3] V-Necks are optional – we usually recommend this option for the women or for students that have health issues (i.e. colostomy)
[4] Because we do a large quantity of throws, locks and chokes – the thicker Yudo dobaks are optional.

For the Black vs. Blue trim debate, I was given the same rational for the color difference, as stated by torbjork.

As the Korean arts began the process of creating distinction between themselves and the Japanese Martial Arts – this is a logical and simple first step.

Happy New Years to you all!

Ed Barton
An Old American TKD MDK

[BUDO BULLDOG]

Sorry about the spelling mistakes - here is another try

Hello,

To add in my dobak in to the conversation:

[1] We wear the traditional white dobak, for all students
[2] Black belts can wear combination of black and white
[3] The black belt dobak has black trim
[3] V-Necks are optional – we usually recommend this option for the women or for students that have health issues (i.e. colostomy)
[4] Because we do a large quantity of throws, locks and chokes – the thicker Yudo dobaks are optional.

For the Black vs. Blue trim debate, I was given the same rational for the color difference, as stated by torbjork.

As the Korean arts began the process of creating distinction between themselves and the Japanese Martial Arts – this is a logical and simple first step.

Happy New Years to you all!

Ed Barton
An Old American TKD MDK

[Fuzbuckle]

Originally in Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan as founded by Great Grand Master Hwang Kee from which most contemporary Tang Soo Do stylists trace their lineage, there were only 4 belt colors. White, Green, Red and Midnight Blue.

Each color had a related season.

White - Winter
Green - Spring
Red - Summer
Midnight Blue - Autumn

Matching lapel trim is was used on Green and Red with Trim on the lapel, bottom and sleeve cuffs of Midnight Blue Belts.

The idea behind this color scheme was that in winter your training experience is covered by the pure white snow and has not yet been touched by the experience or knowledge of Tang Soo Do.

As a green belt you will begin to see growth in your skill much like a plant in spring time.

As a red belt you continue to see your skills blossom as the flowers of summer.

As a Yu Dan Ja - Junior Dan Holder - Your skills have matured and are ready to be harvested and shared with others.

Consequently the Tang Soo Do Master's belt is midnight blue with a red stripe through the center which represents the fullness of the um yang, duality in balance and harmony.

Hope this helps.

I currently train within the International Tang Soo Do Federation which has added yellow and orange belts as additional steps between white and green, but maintains the midnight blue belt for Yu Dan Ja and the midnight blue with a red stripe through the center for Ko Dan Ja.

Tang Soo!