Seven Animals

[drosera99]

Hi Everyone.

I was wondering if anyone here has heard of a seven animals style of Kung Fu?

I am curious because in a recent conversation, someone who studies the same style of karate mentioned a seven animal style that includes Cobra (in addition to Snake). I've never heard of this before and, while I don't have a very deep knowledge of Kung Fu history, technique, or style, I have read enough that I imagined that I would have at least heard of this.

Cheers,

Jeffrey Luz-Alterman

[Badjer]

I am not sure what you are asking exactly except whether or not any of us have heard of 7 animal styles in gung fu. So to answer that part of your question yes I have heard of seven animal styles in gung fu. However, it should be pointed out that just because one stlye of gung fu uses 7 particular animals does not mean another style uses those same animals.
You say you were talking to someone in the same style of karate that had 7 animal styles including cobra on top of the snake. Firstly, comparing his style of karate to gung fu does not mean anything. I do not know that much about the animal styles of karate so it could be true. As for gung fu I have not heard of a style practicing cobra on top of snake which belongs to the same animal family, and considering them 2 separate animals. However, at the same time, I have heard of styles that include the tiger and the leopard as separate animals even though they both belong to the cat family. A lot of it might depend on what characteristics they are taking from the animals. Anyways, even though I have not heard of it does not make it true. It is quite possible.
As for you reading a lot and never hearing of it before that does not mean much. There are lots of styles you can read about but just because you do not read about it does not mean it does not exist. There are many reasons for this but one obvious reason is that some styles have been passed within a family from one generation to the next. They never taught to anyone outside of the family and lots of times no one outside the family even knew they had a family gung fu system. It used to be like this all over China but things have changed where even outsiders, and non-Chinese, are taught. However, it would be within reason to think that some families do it in the old way. My style of gung fu has animals not heard of much in gung fu and others that are and stayed in the family until very recently.
I hope that helps answer your question though your question is unclear except for verification if it exists. Although I don't know him personally another member on this forum by the name of Sean Stoneheart knows a lot about gung fu (as well as numerous others) and might be able to add their own info to this thread.
Cheers!

[drosera99]

I am not sure what you are asking exactly except whether or not any of us have heard of 7 animal styles in gung fu.

That's exactly what I was asking. The other half of the question is has anyone heard of Cobra stylists.


However, it should be pointed out that just because one stlye of gung fu uses 7 particular animals does not mean another style uses those same animals.

Fair enough. Could you tell me where?


Firstly, comparing his style of karate to gung fu does not mean anything.

We weren't making comparisons. We were talking about Kung Fu. The topic of our conversation isn't really relevant, but he was saying that our style is descended from a seven animal system whereas I have always been taught that it was derived from a three animal system. So, I'm doing a bit of inquiry.



As for you reading a lot and never hearing of it before that does not mean much. There are lots of styles you can read about but just because you do not read about it does not mean it does not exist.

That's exactly why I asked here. Don't misunderstand me. I don't know a great deal about Kung Fu. I know a fair amount about the common styles, systems, and general history. I would never claim to have the expertise to allow me to make this evaluation without further research.

Thank you for your response. Everything is helpful and appreciated.

[Badjer]

Before I go on might I ask what style the two of you are studying that you are debating whether or not it comes from 3 or 7 animals? That might help me to try help you and would also give a stepping stone for anyone else that might want to jump in here and lend a hand. Also, if you are debating which animals it is derived from, you could simply ask your instructor, unless perhaps you are in a situation where you aren't receiving lessons anymore?
Anyways, you asked whether or not anyone has heard of Cobra Gung Fu or cobra stylists and the answer to that is yes I have.

[drosera99]

Before I go on might I ask what style the two of you are studying that you are debating whether or not it comes from 3 or 7 animals? That might help me to try help you and would also give a stepping stone for anyone else that might want to jump in here and lend a hand.

Yes. I study Uechi-ryu Karate-do.


Also, if you are debating which animals it is derived from, you could simply ask your instructor, unless perhaps you are in a situation where you aren't receiving lessons anymore?

No, no. I'm still training. The problem is, all of the information is oral history. Everything I've ever been told (even by quite high ranking people) is that the system is based off of three animals (Tiger, Crane, and Dragon). All the techniques in the system seem to be from one of these animals. But apparently, a senior instructor on Okinawa says that Kanbun Uechi (style's founder) said that the style he was taught in China was a seven animal form. Now, there's also some rather complex ambiguity about the relationship between this instructor (the one making this claim) and Uechi Sensei that I'm not really going to discuss online, but factor into trying to determine the voracity of these claims.

The bottom line is, it's very difficult to sort through all of this without any kind of additional information on CMA or any hard evidence. All I've got right now is oral tradition (hearsay essentially), which while valuable, is always subject to people misunderstanding things, misremembering things, accidently omitting things, or exaggerating things with each retelling of the story.

Making it more complicated, there is no known line of the original Kung Fu style still existing in Fukien.


Anyways, you asked whether or not anyone has heard of Cobra Gung Fu or cobra stylists and the answer to that is yes I have.

Could you be more specific please?

Thanks again.

[Badjer]

I have looked a bit into your art and I see what you mean. Everything about its origins are very vague and even the temple that he supposedly learned from did not exist, although this could simply be one version. When I looked into the art the two animals I found that influenced it were the tiger and the crane plus a style of chi gung that no one ever knew the name to. So in researching you could look up what animal styles are in chi kung. I have very basic knowledge in this area so I won't bother offering anything in that regard.
I could be more specific about cobra gung fu but I am not sure what you are wanting to know, especially in relation to your karate-do. I have found endless things in cobra gung fu on the net so you could always check that way. Here is one description:
"The cobra system is a strange, nearly dead system. Its basis is a stance that resembles a cobra risen from the grass with spread hood. The maneuvers are strictly defensive in nature, devastatingly effective and swift. Cobra is designed for speed and tenacity for once the reptile strikes, it hangs on and makes certain that its opponent will die. Most of its techniques are hand maneuvers aimed at the eyes and throat. It is primarily a dim mak style."
Another description from a different site is: "The cobra has the fastest strikes of any of the fighting animals. It is known for fang strikes, hood strikes, and percussionary strikes. It uses what is called a circling pagoda motion, a motion totally unique to the cobra. The fact that the strikes of the cobra rebound from one to the other makes them incredibly fast. Each strike adds more power to the next as energy is rebounded off of the opponent into the next strike"
However, as I said before, what one style copies from an animal another might copy different characteristics from the same animal. Also, my gung fu does the snake as one of its animal styles although for us we do not consider the cobra as a separate animal from the snake. For us the snake is very fast and unpredictable. It contains a lot of grappling where you immobilize your opponent's limbs and go to strangulations. This part would be more like the constrictor snakes. When you block an attack you would then follow along that limb, slipping past everything until you reached your target. Also, since some of the snakes are venomous the targets are usually nerve clusters and/or pressure points. These types of movements would more closely reflect the snake family you are looking at such as the cobra.
I know of some practitioners of snake gung fu that do not copy the snake in such a way but rather use their principles of breathing based on the snake.
You also mentioned a 7 animal style of gung fu so I have found a web site that has 7 animals listed although it does not list the cobra as a separate animal from the snake. Also, what it lists as some of the characteristics we have different ones driving home my point of the differences based on animals. I cannot verify whether this is good or not so read it and take it as you will. I am not verifying anything there one way or the other and do not wish to open a can of worms. Here is the site: http://www.shengchikungfu.com Also, if you look around you will find other sites with 7 animals easily enough but I will leave that up to your research.
I might also suggest one other thing for you, though. You have listed this thread under kung fu and I understand your reasonings since you are trying to find out about these Chinese kung fu influences. However, you might want to also consider opening a thread under the karate section of this forum and find out more about your history from other practitioners of Uechi-ryu Karate-do. They might know things about its history that the CMA community will not and be able to help you more. If you post a thread there a Uechi-ryu Karate-do practitioner will be more likely to see the thread and thus add his/her own tid bits.
Good luck in your research.
Cheers!

[drosera99]

Thanks. You've been very helpful with the Kung Fu information.

[TonyU]

A bit of warning, opening another thread on the same subject is against our rules. I've been following this thread and as Mr. Alterman asked about seven animals and kung fu more so about the origins of Uechi ryu I feel the thread is in its appropriate area.
Now on that note, I know our resident Uechi Ryu expert, Jabonn, will eventually come across this thread and may offer his insight. You may have to be patient though as he is currently stationed overseas.

[Badjer]

You are welcome for the help about gung fu although I am not sure how much help the info that I have provided is. At the very least perhaps it will give you a starting point with your research.
Also, I would still talk to your head instructor about your history if you are interested in that kind of thing. I realize it might be all oral but he might have a better understanding than you do at this point in time. At the very least you could ask about your 3 animal and 7 animal theory and get his view on the matter. Even if he doesn't have all the answers you will have opened a dialogue and might even get him looking more into it. Can not hurt to ask, right?
As for starting another thread being against the rules sorry about that. I was not meaning to suggest you to break the rules. I wasn't exactly meaning for you to ask about the 3 animals or 7 animals in that thread as well. I was referring to you asking more about its history so that you might have a better scope of your art. However, if the moderators think that might be a conflict then by all means stick to this thread that you have started. As Tony has also pointed out there are other members here that practice your art that may be able to provide more insights for you.
I am afraid, though, that since most sources are unaware of where your art comes from then you may never know 100%. I will point out, though, that even though it is nice to know where your art comes from the important part is knowing how to perform your art and its principles.
Cheers and happy researching! I wish the best for you.

[drosera99]

A bit of warning, opening another thread on the same subject is against our rules. I've been following this thread and as Mr. Alterman asked about seven animals and kung fu more so about the origins of Uechi ryu I feel the thread is in its appropriate area.

I'm sorry. Is this thread redundant in some way?

Again, this thread is not about the origins of Uechi-ryu but specifically about a particular point of confusion and discussion regarding the Chinese origins of the style.

EDIT: Never mind. I see what happened with the new thread thing.

As for talking with my teacher, I have in the past. The problem is, this person I'm discussing this with believes that the commonly accepted version of events is inaccurate with regards to the early history of our tradition. The version that I've been told (and the one that I believe right now) is the same one that most American practitioners have been told. It's also difficult to independently verify, especially while living in the US and without knowing Japanese.

[Badjer]

As for talking with my teacher, I have in the past. The problem is, this person I'm discussing this with believes that the commonly accepted version of events is inaccurate with regards to the early history of our tradition.

So the person that you are discussing this with that believes the commonly accepted version is inaccurate is your instructor? Or is this your friend? I am just wondering why you might doubt your instructor unless it is not your instructor. Regardless, if the person that doubts the commonly accepted version has a different idea, is this based on any facts or research? Or is this simply something that he believes without any factual evidence?

By the way what is the common version? Is that the one where you believe they are based on three animals being: tiger, crane and dragon? Also, what attributes are you giving these animals? You've peaked my curiosity after talking about this art for a bit with you.
As for verification I am sure some people here will jump in that have more first hand knowledge about your art such a Jabonn, as Tony said, and others here as well since I am sure there would be more that one practitioner of your art in such a large forum. If you truly do want to research it then you might want to find out what attributes your 3 animals and the 7 animals have. If these 7 animals have attributes that your style does not adhere to then that would raise questions in my mind. I am not trying to tell you what to do, mind you. Just a suggestion as to where I would start if I were in your shoes.
Might I also ask what level you are in your style and how long you have been doing it?
Cheers.
Cheers!

[drosera99]

So the person that you are discussing this with that believes the commonly accepted version is inaccurate is your instructor? Or is this your friend?

It's my friend.


Regardless, if the person that doubts the commonly accepted version has a different idea, is this based on any facts or research? Or is this simply something that he believes without any factual evidence?

He makes the claim on the basis of what a certain high ranking instructor in Japan has said. He also says their is a reference in the Kyohon but I don't speak Japanese so I couldn't find it even if I had a copy.


By the way what is the common version? Is that the one where you believe they are based on three animals being: tiger, crane and dragon? Also, what attributes are you giving these animals? You've peaked my curiosity after talking about this art for a bit with you.

Yes. The common version is that Uechi left Japan to avoid fighting in WWII and went to Fukien province where he studied a small (perhaps a family style?) Kung Fu system called Pangainoon under Chou Tzu Ho (Shushiwa in Japanese). He taught for a while in China before returning to Japan in 1910. He later began teaching Pangainoon. After his death, his style was renamed Uechi-ryu Karate-do in his honor.


As for verification I am sure some people here will jump in that have more first hand knowledge about your art such a Jabonn, as Tony said, and others here as well since I am sure there would be more that one practitioner of your art in such a large forum. If you truly do want to research it then you might want to find out what attributes your 3 animals and the 7 animals have.

For the three animals, it's not to complicated. I have been taught their attributes and which techniques come from which animal. That's one of the reasons why the seven animal hypothesis is, in my view, rather unlikely.


Might I also ask what level you are in your style and how long you have been doing it?

I have Sandan (3rd degree black belt) and I've been doing it for just over ten years.

[Badjer]

Alright then. That was the name that I needed. Pangainoon Gung Fu. I searched that through google and there is tons there so if you want to search it go for google and put in Pangainoon Kung Fu and read to your heart's content.
I must tell you, though, that the 7 animal style comes up a bit when talking about Pangainoon Kung Fu. It is basically the same document from what ever site is talking about the 7 animals but here is a pdf you can read: 3467
However, there is also another version which has 5 animals instead of 7. Here is an example site in the context you are talking about: http://chatandojousa.com/h/Historylong.htm
I must point out that this last reference I gave you with the 5 animals is a pretty standardized system of 5 animals. I do not study this particular one myself but I always hear of those 5 animals together. Since it is so common it might be more likely that he would have ran into those animals when he was in
China as opposed to the 7 animals. Actually, I think it is part of the Ching-I/Harmony system which is in turn part of chi kung which we mentioned earlier. Do not quote me here though. As I said before chi kung is not my area. I am not an expert on Pangainoon Kung Fu so remember this would be speculation on my part.
I hope that helps a bit more. Remember to google it because it has endless pages. I do not want to read all of them but you might have a motivated reason to. Also, you could always ask people here about Pangainoon Kung Fu. You might be surprised what some people might know.
Anyways, I am sure this will fill in the gaps for you or perhaps give you more questions. I think I have run out of things to help with but if you need further help I will do my best. Take care.
Cheers.

[drosera99]

Alright then. That was the name that I needed. Pangainoon Gung Fu. I searched that through google and there is tons there so if you want to search it go for google and put in Pangainoon Kung Fu and read to your heart's content.

Yeah. I've read a lot of that stuff. The problem is, while there's pages and pages of stuff, it's all pretty much the same because the only source on Pangainoon is what's been passed on through Uechi-ryu. There are no surviving practitioners (that have been found) in China. Also, a splinter group left Uechi-ryu and founded "Pangainoon-ryu" which is not real Pangainoon but basically another group doing modified Uechi-ryu.


I am not an expert on Pangainoon Kung Fu so remember this would be speculation on my part.

Don't worry! I don't think such a thing exists anymore!

Thanks for the assistance.

[Badjer]

Pangainoon Kung Fu might not exist anymore but those 5 animal kung fus do. In those pages I was reading through google it shows Pangainoon Kung Fu still existing. I believe one of the sites linked here to budoseek on a past thread. You could also do a search here for it.
It's been my pleasure helping you or, at least, as best as I can. Good luck in your research.
Cheers!

[drosera99]

In those pages I was reading through google it shows Pangainoon Kung Fu still existing.

Yeah... It's not real. It's a Uechi-ryu split off. No original Pangainoon Kung Fu exists in China (that is known) nor anywhere else in the world.

Again, thanks for the help!

[TonyU]

Btw, Jeff, Uechi left Okinawan for China not Japan. Big difference.

[drosera99]

Btw, Jeff, Uechi left Okinawan for China not Japan. Big difference.

Yes...

I don't think I said otherwise. If I did, I clearly meant China. He went to Fukien province in Southern China.

[TonyU]

Yes...

I don't think I said otherwise. If I did, I clearly meant China. He went to Fukien province in Southern China.
I meant he left Okinawa not Japan for China. He was born and lived in Okinawa, Shuri to be exact. Okinawa, while part of Japan, was and is a whole different environment and culture which played a large part of the development of karate as we know it. That plays a big part on the difference between Okinawan and Japanese karate.

[drosera99]

I meant he left Okinawa not Japan for China. He was born and lived in Okinawa, Shuri to be exact. Okinawa, while part of Japan, was and is a whole different environment and culture which played a large part of the development of karate as we know it. That plays a big part on the difference between Okinawan and Japanese karate.

He left Okinawa. But Okinawa is part of Japan (in terms of sovereignty) and he left to avoid being conscripted into the Japanese army. To be more precise, he left Okinawa for Fukien Province, in China in 1898.

There is certainly a huge difference between Japanese and Okinawan martial arts, but when dealing with the location of people and place, it is not at all inaccurate to say that he left Japan.

[Badjer]

Yeah... It's not real. It's a Uechi-ryu split off. No original Pangainoon Kung Fu exists in China (that is known) nor anywhere else in the world.

Again, thanks for the help!


Well, sorry to hear that the Pangainoon Kung Fu you are referring to does not exist anymore that you are aware of.
You are more than welcome for the help though I don't think I helped out that much. Just left more questions but at least you are furhter than you were before.
As I said before good luck in your search.
Cheers.

[drosera99]

To be more precise, he left Okinawa for Fukien Province, in China in 1898.

Correction: 1897.

[Kyuusaku]

I have never heard of any Chinese style of 7 animal forms.

(There are usually 1 animal, 2 animals, or 5 animals; but not 7.) It also seems redundant to have a snake style and a cobra style (as the Chinese word for "cobra" includes the word for snake in the name, anyway).

But who knows? There might be one somewhere.

[sean_stonehart]

I have never heard of any Chinese style of 7 animal forms.

(There are usually 1 animal, 2 animals, or 5 animals; but not 7.) It also seems redundant to have a snake style and a cobra style (as the Chinese word for "cobra" includes the word for snake in the name, anyway).

But who knows? There might be one somewhere.

My thoughts too... Coming from an art that is based on the "famous 5" and has another "not so famous 5" within it, 7 seems an odd number. There's a Viet style named "7 Mountains Fist" or something like that, but it's way removed from the area of Okinawa & SE China coast.

I've seen singles (Eagle Claw, Tiger, mantis, some bagua etc...), doubles (Bak Mei, Baji), 8 (Bagua), 10(Xinyi & Muslim Xingyi) & 12 (Xingyi) but no sevens.

Jabonn & I had a discussion one time about Uechi & its roots. I'd look to Fukinese based/developed arts like YongChun Bai He, Fuzhou Bai He (no so much though), Ngo Cho Kuen a little & even a little Lung Ying Kuen for slight structural simularities.

[drosera99]

Thanks.

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one to not have heard of a seven animal style!