Dog Brothers

[Erik]

I was invited to a DB training/fight near San Francisco tomorrow.

I'm a dead man. :fear:

Anyone know how they usually train? By that, I mean what a workout is like. I know it's Eskrima with MMA, of course, but what should someone expect at practice?

[Cliff Hargrave]

:) make sure someone video tapes it

[Erik]

You'd enjoy that, huh? :laugh:

I haven't trained since the kid was born - 8 months ago. I'm 215, feel and look about the worst I ever have. And after a day of writing software... not the quickest reflexes.

I'll see if I can post myself getting the living tar beaten out of me.

Gints (Baltic Dog) says it is 100% sparring - no drilling, no lessons, just sparring. I wonder how they build skills if it is all competitive sparring? We'll find out, huh?

:laugh: I'm a dead man... :laugh:

[jwinch2]

Erik,

I actually saw a documentary on them on neo geo a while back. I think they train their fundamentals outside of the "gatherings of the pack". For those they only spar. It is my understanding that you are not required to fight and that all fights are set up by the attendees rather than them scheduling anything. You can choose your type of match, H2H, blades, sticks, etc., pretty much anything as long as you can find someone who is willing to fight you under those conditions.

[CEB]

Two men enter. One man leaves. :laugh:

[Tony Dismukes]

We expect a full report when you get back.

I'm really interested in this myself. I used to have some of the Dog Brothers instructional tapes and I learned a lot from them. I've never seen what their regular practice sessions look like, though.

[Erik]

We expect a full report when you get back.


Two men enter. One man leaves.

If I get back.... :laugh:

[sooner_sadiq]

Usually they will wear head gear and arm pads and go full bore. If you fight expect lots of bruises and they probably wont take it easy on you. My current instructor and his instructor both fought at the dog brothers. They both won so there is some tension. From their personal experience they (DB) like close range and then bringing the fight to the ground. They will take a hit if thats whats required. Keep your long range distance and use the full arena to your advantage. Hope this helps and good luck. You should learn a lot about yourself and your skills.

[Aaron T Fields]

Erik,

I will say a prayer....:D

Aaron Fields

[Erik]

Jerry - I'm a Judo/BJJ guy! I have no long-range!

Aaron - thanks for the prayer. Oh, before I go die tomorrow - just saw a movie called Mongol that I think you would LOVE.

[FunSPE]

Youll probably do some two man functional drills and maybe some sparring. You'll be fine :). If you do spar just do what Rigan Machado did when he fought Top Dog: get hit in the hand really hard then get the Double Leg and finish with a submission :). You'll have a good time. Who are you traning with? A friend of mine Chuck Blanchard is training out there. If he's there, tell him little Robert from Alvis' school said hi. He's a good guy but be careful he hits HARD! Have fun!

Robert

[Jonathan Randall]

You'd enjoy that, huh? :laugh:

I haven't trained since the kid was born - 8 months ago. I'm 215, feel and look about the worst I ever have. And after a day of writing software... not the quickest reflexes.

I'll see if I can post myself getting the living tar beaten out of me.



Just be careful. Remember that you are out of shape and don't let your body become dangerously stressed.

Other than that; have fun. Oh! You asked how they train? HARD!!! :wink2:

[DaNinjew]

Erik,

I actually saw a documentary on them on neo geo a while back. I think they train their fundamentals outside of the "gatherings of the pack". For those they only spar. It is my understanding that you are not required to fight and that all fights are set up by the attendees rather than them scheduling anything. You can choose your type of match, H2H, blades, sticks, etc., pretty much anything as long as you can find someone who is willing to fight you under those conditions.

I also caught this special...uhh...ouch...it was pure adrenalin...but you're in luck, it appears a couple of the local paramedics participate in the fun. I suggest you introduce yourself to them BEFORE you fight. Good luck and I hope they don't 'jump' you in. :O

[Koshu]

. . . I'm a Judo/BJJ guy! I have no long-range! . . .
Erik --- How do you feel your exposure to Sayoc Kali will factor in if you choose to spar?

[sooner_sadiq]

actually there is usually no paramedics there so bring sure to bring your own suture kit. If you know what your doing bring extra, and sale your services. You will make a fortune. If you a grapplers should be no problems as they will enter your range. Just be aware of being choked or locked with the other persons weapon. Either way, good for you Erik most people dont have the b*lls anymore to train in that way. The will try use angles against you or rush most of the time.. GL.

[loki]

I know this was not meant as a serious comment, but the 'no paramedics' idea is what I am generally critical of when it comes to Dog Brothers or any other 'balls out' training such as this.

In truth, yes, I agree that realism is what counts, but there is the basic risk vs. reward aspect to it as well. Martial arts in America is basically a hobby/recreational activity. I am not about to risk brain damage or lost of limb for a hobby under those kind of circumstances when I have a career, family, future that includes martial arts but is not dependent on martial arts.

For me, it isn't ballsie to train hard w/o the forethought of safety and preparation to be considered and if they are not providing any safety measures such as medical support, what other safety considerations, as an event host are not being covered?




actually there is usually no paramedics there so bring sure to bring your own suture kit. If you know what your doing bring extra, and sale your services. You will make a fortune. If you a grapplers should be no problems as they will enter your range. Just be aware of being choked or locked with the other persons weapon. Either way, good for you Erik most people dont have the b*lls anymore to train in that way. The will try use angles against you or rush most of the time.. GL.

[Nick L.]

Hey! Somtimes you just got to throw them up on the table, I just hope yours don't get stepped on :D ! Grab anything you can and use your grappling, give someone a noogie for me and good luck.

[Erik]

Erik --- How do you feel your exposure to Sayoc Kali will factor in if you choose to spar?
Good question. Probably won't. I think the eskrima might, though. I was reasonably competent with that (though hardly expert). I got past the point where I'd hit my own head with a stick while doing sinawali, at least. :o

The Sayoc I did (and our Debra, too) was close-range with a blade and digging in pretty nastily. If the knives were at all sharp we'd wind up evicerating each other. It was great but not armed-MMA, if that makes any sense.

The eskrima I did in SLO and JKD (one's a place, the other an MA :wink2: ) was more footwork, sparring, etc. They were pretty different. I think the latter will play out more. We'll see.

The guy running the show, Gints (Baltic Dog) seemed to me to be the opposite of psycho. He's a SW engineer (like me) and understands the need not to get a brain-damaging concussion and to keep the fingers working for programming. He was very careful to emphasize that it's for fun, not for a "terminator beat down" [sic], so it ought to be fun. He also just had a baby 2 months before mine so coming home not dead makes sense to him. :laugh:

If we go knives then I'm not worried. It's the sticks that concern me.

I'll fill you guys in as best I can. I think this will be a good experience.

Now, to loose those 25 pounds....

[loki]

It ain't for me to judge, only state my opinions. I've done my fair share of 'stupid' (please read calculated risk taking) stunts in my day too....and my 'days' aren't done yet :D , just ask my wife :hot: .

Each of us calculates risk vs. reward for ourselves, that's the joy of being an American I guess.

Have fun, don't get broke, and 'be careful out there' as they use to say on Hill Street Blues.


Good question. Probably won't. I think the eskrima might, though. I was reasonably competent with that (though hardly expert). I got past the point where I'd hit my own head with a stick while doing sinawali, at least. :o

The Sayoc I did (and our Debra, too) was close-range with a blade and digging in pretty nastily. If the knives were at all sharp we'd wind up evicerating each other. It was great but not armed-MMA, if that makes any sense.

The eskrima I did in SLO and JKD (one's a place, the other an MA :wink2: ) was more footwork, sparring, etc. They were pretty different. I think the latter will play out more. We'll see.

The guy running the show, Gints (Baltic Dog) seemed to me to be the opposite of psycho. He's a SW engineer (like me) and understands the need not to get a brain-damaging concussion and to keep the fingers working for programming. He was very careful to emphasize that it's for fun, not for a "terminator beat down" [sic], so it ought to be fun. He also just had a baby 2 months before mine so coming home not dead makes sense to him. :laugh:

If we go knives then I'm not worried. It's the sticks that concern me.

I'll fill you guys in as best I can. I think this will be a good experience.

Now, to loose those 25 pounds....

[Cliff Hargrave]

Bring some ice, have fun!

[CEB]

I know this was not meant as a serious comment, but the 'no paramedics' idea is what I am generally critical of when it comes to Dog Brothers or any other 'balls out' training such as this.

In truth, yes, I agree that realism is what counts, but there is the basic risk vs. reward aspect to it as well. Martial arts in America is basically a hobby/recreational activity. I am not about to risk brain damage or lost of limb for a hobby under those kind of circumstances when I have a career, family, future that includes martial arts but is not dependent on martial arts.

For me, it isn't ballsie to train hard w/o the forethought of safety and preparation to be considered and if they are not providing any safety measures such as medical support, what other safety considerations, as an event host are not being covered?

Don't be a sissy.

[sooner_sadiq]

Its not like its going to end up a mangled body show, but maybe some cuts and bruises. Check out their website they usually post some of there sparring sessions regularly.

[dao]

Do they allow spectators? :cool2:

[Erik]

Do they allow spectators? :cool2:
Hi Deb! I'll check. If so, you're welcome to come with me. You'd do fine there, too. They are sensible, not psycho.

The tempo is like randori - partners train like they want to be invited to train again, not like they have something to prove. That's great.

I went 4 times (more than anyone there, I think). 1st was the 1st fight so I had no idea what to expect. Went knife on knife. I started strong, got some good stabs in and parried well. Then he started improving and I felt less strong. I learned that I simply can't hold my lead hand out there as if we were boxing. DUH!!!!!

Second round was against Gints himself (17 years kajikembo so his standing game is good - plus he has 5" on me and is fitter). We used magazines with a weight in them. That was a great match - at first.

I got a great head-and-arm throw loaded, knew I had it (as did Gints), and since we were on cement and I did not know how he could land such a throw, I didn't take it. I tied his weapon arm up reasonably well but was exposed to some excellent clinchwork. My chin is visibly swollen from a knee I ate.

Somewhere in there I took a few roundhouses to the charliehorse spot on my upper leg. I feel I checked those reasonably well but not brilliantly.

I took a few hard kicks to the cup which really, really hurt. I kept going but I could feel my technique falling apart and, being mindful of this:


Just be careful. Remember that you are out of shape and don't let your body become dangerously stressed.

I called a stop toward the end. Wow, the groin hurt and I could feel myself loosing it a bit. I didn't want to be injured so I wussed out a bit. I am comfortable with that decision.

Third match was with these strange weighted shower scrubbers (!!!!!!!) to be used as improvised weapons. They both broke at the start of the match. The other guy was pretty good and I ate a few hits. The *@#$@%@# masks kept me from getting the guillotine and the standing rear naked chokes that are my bread and butter. Really, really frustrating.

Last match was one guy with a knife vs. two of us. This was interesting. The guy kept changing knife hands and twice I screwed up by attacking the wrong arm.

I took him down safely and tied him up - it was simple, academic, except that he switched knife hands so while I was being careful not to hyperextend his L elbow while converting him from all 4s to side control, he switched hands and reached in back and stabbed the base of my trap and neck. Whoops.

He did the same thing at the end of the match while standing.

Dangit! Both times I owned his knife arm but he switched and I did not notice until too late.

A magnificent lesson learned there, though!!

In all cases I felt I did better while watching the video during debrief than I felt I did during the match. There's a lesson there, somehow.

A couple times I kicked to open gaps when a clinch wasn't going my way. I need to practice my kicks as they were really just feints. I thought of them that way and missed deliberately, afraid to connect. Stupid, stupid, stupid. I should have used them and kicked the guy for real. I have no idea why I do that. It looked idiotic but the "kicks" did the job - they feinted and opened gaps so I could reposition. Still, why not actually use them as kicks?!?!?!?! DUH!!!!!!

Realized something interesting - when in a totally new, strange, weird situation, one fights like he trains. I left my crotch wide open, not being worried about being hit there in practice. I went to tie up, set up a takedown, and so on. Looked for chokes and armlocks that couldn't be achieved with the helmets or with the guy switching knife hands. Parried lightly (which was okay) and ignored footwork (not okay). I need to adjust my game.

I also realized something horrible - I have allowed myself to become more out of shape than I have ever been. I felt alright but when I saw the video I was horrified. Sunken chest, gut hanging over my belt, neck fat enough that it goes straight down from my ears. Weak arms that look like strings from the sleeves. Legs too thick for some of my pants.

I was a college athlete! I have never been this disgusting. I am humiliated and would use a pocket knife to do my own liposuction if I thought it would actually work. Horrible, horrible, horrible.

I put on about 15-20 pounds in 2 months. Don't know where this came from (okay, from food, but you know what I mean).

For this reason I don't want to post a video. I am too embarrassed.

[loki]

There's a difference between sissy and good sense.


Don't be a sissy.

[loki]

I thought you mentiond a newborn in the house. That will definitely mess with your schedule in all kinds of ways.

Just one of those sacrifices of self indulgence that we make for the family. I am fighting back from the same thing for the same reason. Whenever I get too frustrated and want to complain, I just remember what my wife put up with and is still doing to try and maintain some kind of sanity and shut up real fast. :bow:





I put on about 15-20 pounds in 2 months. Don't know where this came from (okay, from food, but you know what I mean).

For this reason I don't want to post a video. I am too embarrassed.

[Nick L.]

Erik,

Come on', post the video we will not make fun of your programmer physique Promise :D

[Erik]

...I just remember what my wife put up with and is still doing to try and maintain some kind of sanity and shut up real fast. :bow:
She's still hot. :D

Video belongs to Gints. I'll see what I can do.

It's embarrassing. I can already hear Tony U. making fun of my non-kicks, Cliff of my piss-poor fitness, and Barry of my knife work. Dennis will find something, too... :laugh:

[Tony Dismukes]

I thought you mentiond a newborn in the house. That will definitely mess with your schedule in all kinds of ways.

Just one of those sacrifices of self indulgence that we make for the family. I am fighting back from the same thing for the same reason. Whenever I get too frustrated and want to complain, I just remember what my wife put up with and is still doing to try and maintain some kind of sanity and shut up real fast.


She's still hot.

Having recently had the opportunity to meet Erik & family in person, I can testify that he has a totally adorable little baby and a smoking hot wife. Between the two of them, I guess he has some excuse for getting away from training for a while.

Tell you what, Erik - if you post the video I promise to only make fun of whatever elements the others forget to criticize. :)

(Seriously, I admire your guts for diving into that sort of training situation after being away from your workouts for so long. I would be a bit intimidated to try it without getting myself back in shape first.)

[loki]

Nice "Husband Speak", be sure to get her to read it for points. After enough points, you might be able to get out of mowing the lawn once.....ONCE :rolleyes:

You had the guts to get on the floor and do this when you didn't feel 100% (which is MORE gutsy IMO than someone who feels totally confident BTW), so I'd say keep the momentum going by showing the video. Any picking will be 'locker room humor' at the most serious by folks who respect you enough to mock you :up:

Seriously, I know I posted a criticism of the Dog Brother format, and I do believe in 'measured risk' in training (and for me this approach doesn't measure up) but you took a step that you thought was worth it and that's cool.

The best thing that came of it, IMO, would be any personal reflections/opinions on how capable you feel right now (out of shape and all) to defend yourself or your family? That self doubt that might have come from being in 'the worst shape ever' could have hindered things otherwise, God forbid, you were to have to step up. At least, now, you know that you still 'have it' even though you aren't where you have been in the past.


She's still hot. :D

Video belongs to Gints. I'll see what I can do.

It's embarrassing. I can already hear Tony U. making fun of my non-kicks, Cliff of my piss-poor fitness, and Barry of my knife work. Dennis will find something, too... :laugh:

[Erik]

At least, now, you know that you still 'have it' even though you aren't where you have been in the past.
The older I get, the tougher I was. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Thanks, Tony, by the way! You guys were fun, too - your wife is darling and I really enjoyed talking aviation with your brother. The visit was too short and too late in an exhausting day. I hope you come back out to SF again (and bring the relatives!)

I'll see if I can get the video. It was awful, though. The worst part is the non-kicks, not parrying the attacking hand like I used to practice (DUH!!!!!!!!!! Poor judgement there!) and looking at myself like an elephant trying to dance. Humiliating.

That being said, I think I achieved about the same level of effectiveness (certainly not athleticism or grace) as most of the other guys.

Oh yeah - forgot to mention: elbow bled all over the place from the abrasive cement and I just discovered a nice juicy gash on my back/shoulder right where you get sunburned from that sneaky little guy who (sensibly) kept switching knife hands.

Actually, a few things I'm proud of - I didn't injure anyone, I controlled an armlock that could have injured the elbow pretty seriously if I had allowed myself to slip and drop my weight (that's when I got that stab on the back from over the top), and I called the round done after my brain fuzzed up from taking two gnarly kicks to the groin. I did not want to find myself hurt any further due to loosing my concentration. That was a triumph of good sense over ego.

[Erik]

I guess this is why I stopped the round where I took two kicks to the groin. :eek:

This is my upper inner leg, as close to my "daughter's future siblings" as is decent to photograph and post on the internet. :up:

Dang, that hurt at the time. And I didn't notice until this morning. I must be a moron.

[loki]

Not a moron, just coming down off of the natural high of fight or flight...

It's the adrenaline equivalent to waking up the morning after a night of 'a few too many sodas' and saying "Ouch! When did I get a tatoo on my stomach?!" or "Why the H(#& did I get THAT pierced..."




I guess this is why I stopped the round where I took two kicks to the groin. :eek:

This is my upper inner leg, as close to my "daughter's future siblings" as is decent to photograph and post on the internet. :up:

Dang, that hurt at the time. And I didn't notice until this morning. I must be a moron.

[Erik]

...edit - photos didn't upload. I'll try again later.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hey Eric,

Glad you enjoyed a trip on the wild side. It can get even more wilder if
you really want it to. :eek: