body contact

[Nina]

I know that it could sound a little stupid, but when I started my MA, and I also heard the same from other beginners, I had problems to do some stuff with male students...Maybe male students cannot follow that kind of thought, but I guess it is very common.
Do you think that there are things that would be better trained with the same sex? I hate that seperation but today I was reminded of that in training...

[Nadine]

Where is the question?

[CEB]

I know that it could sound a little stupid, but when I started my MA, and I also heard the same from other beginners, I had problems to do some stuff with male students...Maybe male students cannot follow that kind of thought, but I guess it is very common.....

I follow it fine. The feeling is often mutual or I think it was with my generation. I was always taught as a boy not to hit girls. That girls are the fairer sex. Female are very delicate you know. :)

We used to have seperate classes for women 30 years ago. It just isn't feasible to do that anymore and not much reason to do that in our dojo. We are all a bunch of OLD married people now. In our dojo we have as many women as men. We pair up by size so usually women work with each other. It just works out that way.

[Nina]

:rolleyes:
I was always taught as a boy not to hit girls.
And girls are normally taught to hit noone at all...

[CEB]

But you know in 30 years of playing music in bars most of the best fights were between women. :laugh:

[KZMiller]

I personally prefer to train with anyone. If I'm uncomfortable working with men in a dojo setting where everything is safe, how can I expect to stand up to a man in the everyday world?

[loki]

It's not stupid, it's normal. I see it all the time during self defense instruction. Two basically decent people who don't know each other or know each other very little start assuming roles of bad guy and 'victim' and get into positions where lots of body contact and personal space invasion occurs.

That takes a lot of trust in your self and your training partner. That takes time (for both) to develop. AND, it starts all over again whenever there is a new person, new technique, new anything....

Basically, we rotate partners like a school social dance. You have to train with everyone on the floor at least once. We operate with the "adults in the room" lamp lit, which means that the goal is to get over the heeby jeebies, but it doesn't have to be all in one session, so we usually have a progression of contact for the techniques whenever possible. But, in the long run, all those concerns have to become secondary to the objective of self defense...in the long term.


I know that it could sound a little stupid, but when I started my MA, and I also heard the same from other beginners, I had problems to do some stuff with male students...Maybe male students cannot follow that kind of thought, but I guess it is very common.
Do you think that there are things that would be better trained with the same sex? I hate that seperation but today I was reminded of that in training...

[Nina]

I personally prefer to train with anyone.
Me normally,too.


If I'm uncomfortable working with men in a dojo setting where everything is safe, how can I expect to stand up to a man in the everyday world?
But you wouldn`t feel comfortable outside too.

[edosan]

Nina,
I understand your feeling as well. I am an Aikidoka and as is well known men and women pretty much always train together. On our mat there is no spoken distinction between the sexes. One of the things that I like about Aikido is that since it is really taught via touch, it provides a safe way for men and women to touch with no implications. Sensei Terry Dobson once said (and I am paraphrasing here) that Aikido creats a way for men to women, men to men, women to women to interact in a non sexual, non intimidating way that respects each person.

That being said, there are some techniques in which the contact could be "too personal" and fortunately in my experience all the people I have trained with are VERY respectful of our anatomical differences. I think some of this comes from Aikido's philosophy of protecting your attacker as well as yourself. I have never heard a female in class speak about being inappropriatly touched or having to touch a man in a way that made them uncomfortable. I can imagine that this might not be the case in all arts. If a female were to ask me about MA training I would definately suggest that they go watch a class or even two before they start to make sure they would be comfortable with it. In that instance, I feel each person has to make their own choice of arts and once you pick one then you are obligated to acccept the "standard" training method, whatever it may be. One is always free to choose a different art if one does not like the contact of one particular style. Each must choose his/her own path.

I speak only for myself,
Respectfully:bow:
Edo-san

P.S. I should mention that my Sensei is a woman.

[Erik]

But you know in 30 years of playing music in bars most of the best fights were between women. :laugh:
Ain't that the truth....

Women fight like they mean it.

[Erik]

I used to teach submission wrestling (jiu jitsu without a gi) to a group of women. Recall that much of this sport is spent in the guard position (i.e. missionary).

People were a little nervous until I finally said someting along the lines of - "I know it feels awkward but this is how this sport is, this is why guard exists and what it is used for, and we can either get past feeling awkward and train or not. There's nothing more I can do."

That seemed to work well.

Of course, I had some awesome fighters as students - very proud of them.

[Eliz]

I know this same question as been around a time or two, but frankly I think it is a GREAT question and well worth re-visiting.

Not only were the guys raised not to hit girls, but girls were raised that they should NEVER tolerate being hit by a man. It goes both ways.

I guess in my mind it was never an issue because we are working within a sterile training environment. It is not about girls and guys hitting each other in anger....it is about training to prevent such an encounter or to properly defend myself in such an encounter.

[Nina]

I guess in my mind it was never an issue because we are working within a sterile training environment.
Sterile???:eek:

[Eliz]

Sterile???:eek:

:lmao4: :lmao4:

Sorry.....controlled would have been a better word.

That was funny!

[dao]

Nina, I hope you don't mind, I have a similar qustion. Has anyone trained with a specific person of the other sex that of the other sex that made them nervous and jumpy? I've had my share of awkard moments, but generally training with the oppisite sex has been no big deal. There is this one guy that just makes me nervous and it bugs me that I react this way.

[Nina]

Nina, I hope you don't mind, I have a similar qustion. Has anyone trained with a specific person of the other sex that of the other sex that made them nervous and jumpy? I've had my share of awkard moments, but generally training with the oppisite sex has been no big deal. There is this one guy that just makes me nervous and it bugs me that I react this way.
I guess that about one third of the newbies fall in love with seniors...
Hey Dao, I thought you are married?

[dao]

:laugh: I think this was more akin to fear then love actually. And an unreasonable fear a that.

[Redcat]

Nina, I hope you don't mind, I have a similar qustion. Has anyone trained with a specific person of the other sex that of the other sex that made them nervous and jumpy? I've had my share of awkard moments, but generally training with the oppisite sex has been no big deal. There is this one guy that just makes me nervous and it bugs me that I react this way.
In my school, I am usually the only female in class, and I have NO problems with most of the guys. We do have a new guy who skeeves me out; I have no problems sparring with him but I cannot see myself rolling with him. Fortunately I am not the only person who thinks this guy is off.

To the OP, I do think there is value in women only classes, especially for more timid beginners. Anything to give people a leg up/confidence... so long as the goal is co-ed classes. IMO it does not behoove a woman to avoid training with men, as we are most likely to be attacked by men.

[Oelier]

There is this one guy that just makes me nervous and it bugs me that I react this way.

If you're nervous, there's usually a reason. Especially if other guys don't cause you to react the same way, and most especially if others react the same way you do. I'm not saying the best thing to do is to avoid him, but don't discount your nervousness. Remember, just because something's not aimed at you doesn't mean everything's fine. Depending on the situation, he may not even be the source, but the target.

[Eliz]

If you're nervous, there's usually a reason. Especially if other guys don't cause you to react the same way, and most especially if others react the same way you do. I'm not saying the best thing to do is to avoid him, but don't discount your nervousness. Remember, just because something's not aimed at you doesn't mean everything's fine. Depending on the situation, he may not even be the source, but the target.

Well said, Shandy!

Some people are just creepy....it is not gender specific.

[wingchundo.girl]

My sisters and I call it the "creep" factor. Whether it is a work or school, or even when your shopping. You feel some kind of radar or alarm go off when you are around certain guys. You don't usually know why you feel like this, so you start to doubt your feelings because it is not based on too much.

But during one of our "diva" nights we were talking about it and we come to the conclusion that our instincts were usually right on.

Here is our theory, after a few mimosas of course, that just like the primordial instinct of fight and flight, that women have developed over the millennia another instinct. Considering the history of the relationships between men and women, women being able to be as free as she is in western culture, which is actually quite a new concept in the last few generations, that we all hold a gene developed over thousands of years.

So don't discount those feelings ladies, it just might be genetic. Pass the mimosa.

[TonyU]

I hate to break it to you ladies but it's just not women that get those "senses". And it not only against guys either. It can be a feeling of something slightly off in anyone.

[DragonMind]

Not only were the guys raised not to hit girls, but girls were raised that they should NEVER tolerate being hit by a man. It goes both ways.Maybe it is just the populations we move in but in my experience most women, particularly the more religious ones, are taught to tolerate abuse; especially spousal abuse. I see it over and over in self protection classes, that the women have a very difficult time giving themselves permission to react with violence -- even up to their own death. I have had to resort to threatening their children to get some women to break through that barrier.

[Eliz]

Maybe it is just the populations we move in but in my experience most women, particularly the more religious ones, are taught to tolerate abuse; especially spousal abuse. I see it over and over in self protection classes, that the women have a very difficult time giving themselves permission to react with violence -- even up to their own death. I have had to resort to threatening their children to get some women to break through that barrier.

So I guess that equally cancels out Ed's comment to? ;)


I was always taught as a boy not to hit girls. That girls are the fairer sex. Female are very delicate you know.

If you work with battered women then you know that many were raised on the same standards of tolerance ..... male family members were just excluded from the equation. Many of these women grew up witnessing their fathers abuse their mothers, suffered abuse themselves at the hands of their fathers, brothers, etc. And all the while were told to never tolerate abuse. :confused:

[dao]

If you work with battered women then you know that many were raised on the same standards of tolerance ..... male family members were just excluded from the equation. Many of these women grew up witnessing their fathers abuse their mothers, suffered abuse themselves at the hands of their fathers, brothers, etc. And all the while were told to never tolerate abuse. :confused:

Children being told one thing while witnessing or experiencing something completely different is not that uncommon - the "do as I say not as I do" phenomenon. Though people are more apt to mimic what they see instead of what they hear.

Also in some families men believe that it is "natural" that they own women; and women are actively taught and treated like they property.

[DragonMind]

It is definitely a hard concept to both understand and break through. I have to keep reminding myself when I'm trying to use rational approaches in an irrational situation. Its usually the out of left field ideas that finally produce the breakthroughs. I'm convinced that it is a visceral thing after so many years and talking to the person is just being Charlie Brown's teacher (wah wah wah wah). I remember one class where a young BB was trying to get a woman to even hit him lightly hoping that would start the ball rolling. Nothing worked. Finally we told him to whisper something in her ear. Next thing he knew she had thrown him to the ground, straddled him, had an ear in each hand and was dribbling his head like Larry Byrd. We had to rescue the poor kid amid our tears of laughter. She "broke through" all right...:laugh:

What did he whisper? "After I kill you I'm going to have your daughter until I'm tired and then slit her throat."

[JMC]

I note that all the responses except Nina are from the USA. I'd be interested in how other cultures / countries view this question (e.g. Israel vs. Brazil vs. Thailand). Anybody have any input on how women fare in other countries when / if they attempt studying MA?

[Nina]

In my opinion there is a very big difference between kids and adults who experienced violence. Woman who tolerate it, maybe know it`s "wrong", children in contrast experience it as some kind of normality.

[Mike Panebianco]

A good point of reference can be found in Gavin DeBecker's excellent book, "The Gift of Fear". I have bought this book for every woman that means something to me. The intuition signal is in us all, and it does not lie. What we choose to ignore from this signal may come back to haunt us.

I train self defense only now, and with my female students I only recommend that they consider the ramifications of "softball" training. A fellow housewife will likely not be the one attacking them, so moving on to a real badguy is key.

I have a favorite badguy that I use for the ladies classes. He is a great roleplayer, gives good bodylanguage, and understands that he will not help the ladies learn if he sells out their training. False confidence is more a disservice to ladies than no training at all. When they learn that their tools only work against a non violent soccermom training partner in a low intensity setting, what does that do to their mindset when the dude dressed as a UPS driver kicks the front door in and pins her to the floor in her bathrobe?

The mind leads the body, and if you cant get your mind past your training partner, how will you act when you need to when it really counts?

I guess it is all dependant on the reasons you train, and wether street credible training is what you seek. Its not a judgement, just an observation. Context is everything when you train.

[EvaL]

I personally prefer to train with anyone. If I'm uncomfortable working with men in a dojo setting where everything is safe, how can I expect to stand up to a man in the everyday world?

I agree. Very well said.

[KnghtAzrael]

I know I'm coming into this topic late but I did a seminar the other day after having been out of training for a while and it brought up some stuff I felt fit here. During the seminar my training partner was a teenage girl. Some of the stuff involved using shoves for the person to do a technique off of. Now when called up by my sensei to help him demonstrate I had no problem laying into his chest with a good shove. However when it came to my training partner I could help but adjust my aim to the shoulder where normally I wouldn't shove someone. Same things with bear hugs and matt techniques I was always concious of watching hand placement.

Now I've always been taught in training not to treat the female students differently from the male students. Looking back however I find that I have always modified training with a female partner. I know from experience as a teen that in a real situation this isn't something I've done but in training I don't seem to be able to help it. So for me at least it seems females aren't the only ones who have body contact issues.

[Eliz]

Thanks for sharing, Raymond
Teenaged girls are teenaged girls. They are young and very body conscious and it can be a very sensitive time (both physically and emotionally) for them. Frankly I adjust my attacks when working with teenaged girls. I do not necessarily power down but, as you said, I will aim my attacks more towards the shoulders.