View Full Version : New Member seeking Advice
Hello All,
I'm a new poster so if this topic is in the wrong forum would an admin please move it to the appropriate one? I'll try to keep this short, but it might get a little long-winded...
Here's my situation....2 years ago I started training in a karate class that was held at a local church. The monthly dues at that time were $40 per month, which covered everything offered (weapons, grappling, "bonus classes" belt promotion fees, etc etc).
Six months after joining the dojo was relocated to a commercial building and the fees were increased to $70 per month. A few short months later the dojo was relocated to a larger commerical building and the fee structure was totally revamped. About this time my 9 year old son starting training as well. Needless to say, I was overjoyed. Training with my son, and watching him advance and become more cofident and self assured is something that I've enjoyed beyond words.
With the larger dojo, the new fee "menu" included a variety of memberships:
Basic $75 / month
Basic Plus $80 / month
BLACK BELT TRACK $95 / month (for those students are "really dedicated).
The different memberships include different training options being offered.
I'm currenlty a "basic plus" member, which allows me to attend three 1 hour core classes, along with a "bonus" class per week. It was my understanding that weapons classes were "bonus" classes, but last week when I inquired about attending a weapons class my Sensei informed me that I couldn't because I wasn't a "Black Belt Track" member.
Not wanting to cause a scene at the dojo I respectfully left without offereing any questions. Later that night I sent an email asking for clarification, and observed that as a business owner I was sure Sensei could understand my view as a customer, and asking for clarification in regards to the fee structure.
To make a long story short...Sensei posted a blog on the dojo website discussing the difference between a "customer" and a "student". To paraphrase...customers view training only as a "product" being offered, and students view training as a way of life.
I'm somewhat distraught at this. I realize that one has to be comitted to training, and I'd like to think that I have been for the last two and half years, but on the other hand, there has to be line at some point where the business/financial aspect of training is brought into consideration. I'm getting the feeling from Sensei's correspondence that she was somewhat offended that I'd even bring the subject up.
I've avoided classes this week while trying to decide what to do. I've visited another dojo (a shotokan dojo) and while I think it would be perfect for me, I'm fairly sure my son would not like it at all.
So, the options that it would appear that I have are:
-Shut up about the fees and keep trianing at my current dojo with my son
-Cancel my membership and let my son keep training
-Cancel both our memberships and enroll myself in the Shotokan dojo (I'm sure if this happened my son would quit training).
I feel totally lost about what the right decision is. I don't feel comfortable discussing the issue with my Sensei, and that in itself causes me quite a bit concern.
I'd appreciate any comments or suggestions forum members might have.
Jeff A
nismophreek
08-06-2008, 14:22
I've been dealing with the same situation. I sat my instructor down and had a talk. You don't know what will happen if you don't say something. Do you know for a fact that your son won't like Shotokan or are you just assuming that? What style/styles do you train in now?
....
To make a long story short...Sensei posted a blog on the dojo website discussing the difference between a "customer" and a "student". To paraphrase...customers view training only as a "product" being offered, and students view training as a way of life.
....
There is a difference between a teacher and a salesman also. This McDojo Karate mall multi fee structure stuff is a bunch of crap!
As a teacher you teach a way (an approach). You teach what you think is the right way. The way does not change based on someones due structure. If the way includes weapons training it includes weapons training. If the way includes grappling it it includes grappling. If it doesn't it doesn't.
There is a difference between a teacher and a salesman also. This McDojo Karate mall multi fee structure stuff is a bunch of crap!
As a teacher you teach a way (an approach). You teach what you think is the right way. The way does not change based on someones due structure. If the way includes weapons training it includes weapons training. If the way includes grappling it it includes grappling. If it doesn't it doesn't.
:qft:
Ed is right on in my view. This graduated pay structure sounds from the outside looking in to be a way to entice you to pay more than you originally agreed to and to wrangle more money out of you. In addition, it creates an environment where only those who are in the "blackbelt club" are serious students and others are not working as hard. To me if you teach the art, you teach all of it, not some to those who pay X, more to those who pay Y, and all to those who pay Z. If you were told upfront, "weapons are going to be taught outside of normal classes and there will be an extra charge to those wishing to participate in weapons training" I would not have a problem with that. Unfortunately, that does not seem to be the case in your situation...
Good luck with everything...
STORMCROW34
08-06-2008, 15:06
Sounds like profit margin is getting in the way of teaching and learning. I could be wrong, but it appears your sensei wants you to be a dedicated student. Which is how it should be providing she is a dedicated teacher. But at the same time, she wants you to continue to pay increasing commercial dojo fees without question. That doesn't seem quite right to me. Also one hour per training session seems a little short in my opinion.
You could take your son to the Shotokan dojo for a trial lesson. You never know. Maybe he will like it.
My roots were Shotokan. I started when I was 10 and I loved it. The dojo shut down and I took up Judo as a teenager. I came back to Karate in my 20's.
Gene is right. The biggest problem with a lot of McDojo styles is that they can ruin kids when it comes to real Budo.
Shotokan is good. The pedagogy and demanding stance work is perfect for introducing Karate to children.
Dennis Monk
08-06-2008, 15:33
I also agree with Ed on his point.
You teach what you teach. You shouldn't learn more just because you pay more.
Webmaster
08-06-2008, 15:40
There is a difference between a teacher and a salesman also. This McDojo Karate mall multi fee structure stuff is a bunch of crap!
As a teacher you teach a way (an approach). You teach what you think is the right way. The way does not change based on someones due structure. If the way includes weapons training it includes weapons training. If the way includes grappling it it includes grappling. If it doesn't it doesn't.
Another vote for Ed's take on this. He's dead on with this.
As far as what you do, we cannot decide for you. If I knew a little more about where you train and the alternative (the Shotokan dojo), I could give you a bit more educated opinion. From what you are telling me now, I'd walk. Take your son to the Shotokan dojo and see how he likes it. Tell him it's more serious hardcore Karate and see if that puts a different take on it. You never know, he might just surprise you and tell you that it's more what he wants too!
Another vote for Ed's take on this. He's dead on with this.
As far as what you do, we cannot decide for you. If I knew a little more about where you train and the alternative (the Shotokan dojo), I could give you a bit more educated opinion. From what you are telling me now, I'd walk. Take your son to the Shotokan dojo and see how he likes it. Tell him it's more serious hardcore Karate and see if that puts a different take on it. You never know, he might just surprise you and tell you that it's more what he wants too!
I know that if my Sensei ever were to raise the rates on me, I would have to leave immediately! :D
Webmaster
08-06-2008, 16:25
Hmm, let me guess.... core classes, bonus classes...Keichu Karate brought to you by Grandmaster uber-Soke Dr. Reverend Karl Marx.
http://www.keichudo.info/index.html
Oy.. that Shotokan class is looking better all the time.
STORMCROW34
08-06-2008, 17:01
Hmm, let me guess.... core classes, bonus classes...Keichu Karate brought to you by Grandmaster uber-Soke Dr. Reverend Karl Marx.
http://www.keichudo.info/index.html
Oy.. that Shotokan class is looking better all the time.
Yeah, but that headband looks pretty authentically sweet and tough at the same time.
If that is it then it looks better than I expected. Though I really hate the whole Chanbara thing. Something about weapon training with pool noodles just seems wrong. Hickory oak and steel are much better and helps to develop proper respect for the weapon.
To quote Gene again:
Real martial artist use real weapons. Toy weapons are for toy martial artists.
..... or something close to that.
Judging from the website alone .... I wouldn't train there though but that is just me.
Thanks to all who have replied.
In respect to my Sensei (she is my Sensei so I think she deserves that respect), I'd rather not be specific about my dojo particulars.
The Shotokan class is held in a local community center (Pismo Beach CA, I think it's called "Central Coast Shotokan") and is not a commerical dojo. The Shotokan Sensei's name is Martin McGrail.
Here's the kicker that's absolutely killing me. I went home for lunch today and my son asked is we could have a "man to man" talk. He told me how much he enjoys training at our current dojo and basically begged me to keep going there.
I'm torn. I understand clearly all the points that have been made, but I also know that my son has gained useful and valuable skills over the last year. If it was just myself I'd have no problem walking. The Shotokan dojo is intense, I sure beyond any reasonable doubt that my son wouldn't like. Our current training, if nothing else, is exciting and enjoyable for him. He's comitted himself in a way that I've never seen with anything else.
Ahhhh.....what to do?
Thanks again for all the input.
Jeff A
Webmaster
08-06-2008, 18:29
It's great that your son is so enthusiastic about his training, so I understand your dilemma. Are the classes at the two dojo on separate nights? If so, why don't you start training in Shotokan and let your son stay where he is at...for now. :up: Later, invite him to train with you at the shotokan dojo as "supplemental" training. His/your current sensei may not like that, but if she gets really upset, it should only confirm in your mind that maybe she sees it as a threat to her and what she is teaching is not what it's cracked up to be. Hopefully your son will see what serious and powerful karate Shotokan can be and decide for himself to change his focus.
STORMCROW34
08-06-2008, 19:25
If that is it then it looks better than I expected. Though I really hate the whole Chanbara thing. Something about weapon training with pool noodles just seems wrong. Hickory oak and steel are much better and helps to develop proper respect for the weapon.
To quote Gene again:
Real martial artist use real weapons. Toy weapons are for toy martial artists.
..... or something close to that.
Judging from the website alone .... I wouldn't train there though but that is just me.
I don't know Gene, err Ed, I think foam padded weapons do have their uses. Just like foam padded gloves do. They allow you to mix it up a little bit with power and intent, and without people making frequent trips to the hospital.
But I also think they shouldn't be the main focus. Real weapons definitely need to be primary.
I think foam padded weapons do have their uses. Just like foam padded gloves do. They allow you to mix it up a little bit with power and intent, and without people making frequent trips to the hospital.
The US Army and Marine Corps seem to think they are valuable enough to include in recruit training...
I don't know Gene, err Ed, I think foam padded weapons do have their uses. Just like foam padded gloves do. They allow you to mix it up a little bit with power and intent, and without people making frequent trips to the hospital.
But I also think they shouldn't be the main focus. Real weapons definitely need to be primary.
Yes a lot of people agree with that and I can see that point. When I saw Nishiuchi Sensei about 10 years ago they were doing sparring with those foam thingies. He is definitely a real Kobudo man. However they did all their Matayoshi Kobudo bunkai with real weapons.
I use some fake weapons for self defense training. Fake guns knives and clubs when I do that sort of thing. I studied Jujutsu system does that sort of thing. But I like to keep Kobudo as pure as I can. Kobudo to me is a living antique.
This is just a personal prejudice of mine. My teacher did not use so I do not use. :laugh:
Thanks to all who have replied.
In respect to my Sensei (she is my Sensei so I think she deserves that respect), I'd rather not be specific about my dojo particulars.
The Shotokan class is held in a local community center (Pismo Beach CA, I think it's called "Central Coast Shotokan") and is not a commerical dojo. The Shotokan Sensei's name is Martin McGrail.
Here's the kicker that's absolutely killing me. I went home for lunch today and my son asked is we could have a "man to man" talk. He told me how much he enjoys training at our current dojo and basically begged me to keep going there.
I'm torn. I understand clearly all the points that have been made, but I also know that my son has gained useful and valuable skills over the last year. If it was just myself I'd have no problem walking. The Shotokan dojo is intense, I sure beyond any reasonable doubt that my son wouldn't like. Our current training, if nothing else, is exciting and enjoyable for him. He's comitted himself in a way that I've never seen with anything else.
Ahhhh.....what to do?
Thanks again for all the input.
Jeff A
For starters - welcome to BudoSeek! :)
Next -- your son. A lot of commercial establishments work under the premise of: "Suck in the kids and the parents will stay (or join too)." Lets face it, we as parents will move mountains for our children.
I can almost promise you that your son's experience will eventually sour. Dojo's like this are really caught up on new business.
The fact that this woman answered your inquiry by expounding her mumbo jumbo on her school blog would have had me high tailing it out of there the next day.
Leave your son there, go and do your Shotokan and do not worry....He will be joining you within a year. ;) (and the move will be of his choosing).
Our dojo is kind of funny. We have a lot of parents start Karate because they have childern in the kids class that one of my guys teaches. We don't do fancy stuff and a lot of kids move one but the parents stay.
We are also cheap. $25 a month, $35 for 2 or more.... I think. I don't handle the money. Great to have no rent.
Half of my class are mothers of former students :laugh:
torbjork
08-07-2008, 05:18
I say move, but let your son train at your current school until he himself wants to leave.
The tiered fee structure is one thing, but the way your instructor is doing it sounds like bait & switch to me. "Oh, the class you WANT isn't a bonus class I'm afraid" :rolleyes:
Brian Dugger
08-07-2008, 21:55
Hello All,
. . .
So, the options that it would appear that I have are:
-Shut up about the fees and keep trianing at my current dojo with my son
-Cancel my membership and let my son keep training
-Cancel both our memberships and enroll myself in the Shotokan dojo (I'm sure if this happened my son would quit training).
I feel totally lost about what the right decision is. I don't feel comfortable discussing the issue with my Sensei, and that in itself causes me quite a bit concern.
I'd appreciate any comments or suggestions forum members might have.
Jeff A
It's your time and money or time=money. Your son will have to trust you like he always has regardless of the decision. Protect that relationship first, then re-evaluate the instructor/dojo. It seems like the instructor has made quite a presumption regarding the committment of students with the recent developments. I understand bills, lights, rent etc . . . done it, but does she really believe in that difference of student and customer? If this is the case, tell her KMA. Student, customer we're still people--humans. We're designed to be a service to each other, not benefit at the expense of others. If you want to learn, you will and so will your son. It doesn't have to be here or there. It does have to be where you want, if you want it.
Again, thank you all for replying.
Still not sure exactly what the right path is for me, and I hate that. I'm usually pretty sure of what I should do (even if I hate the idea). This particular instance has got me baffled and it's a very uncomfortable place to be.
My Sensei sent me an email and apologized for the "misunderstanding" about the weapons class/black belt track membership requirement. I appreciate the the effort, but it still boils down to.....pay more and learn more.
My nine year old son is in a constant state of tears and begging me to go back to class. We've missed two classes this week and it's like the end of the world. Hard to keep your focus when the absolute light of your life is bawling and begging you to do something you're not sure about.
I'll update when and if I make a decision about what to do.
Jeff A
nismophreek
08-08-2008, 06:59
Yeah, but that headband looks pretty authentically sweet and tough at the same time.
Isn't that the Karate Kid headband?! :D
STORMCROW34
08-08-2008, 08:03
Again, thank you all for replying.
Still not sure exactly what the right path is for me, and I hate that. I'm usually pretty sure of what I should do (even if I hate the idea). This particular instance has got me baffled and it's a very uncomfortable place to be.
My Sensei sent me an email and apologized for the "misunderstanding" about the weapons class/black belt track membership requirement. I appreciate the the effort, but it still boils down to.....pay more and learn more.
My nine year old son is in a constant state of tears and begging me to go back to class. We've missed two classes this week and it's like the end of the world. Hard to keep your focus when the absolute light of your life is bawling and begging you to do something you're not sure about.
I'll update when and if I make a decision about what to do.
Jeff A
Anyone with children knows how hard it is to say "no" to a crying kid. And it sounds like you two have a great time together at this dojo. I wished I could talk my child into training with me. I think it would be absolutely an incredible bonding experience.
But in the end, as the adult, it's your decision to make. Perhaps you could tell your son that you are thinking about going back, but you want to try this other place out together a couple of time first. Tell him that you talked to some really experienced martial artists (not me, but some of the other posters here have decades of experience) and they thought it was a good idea. Politely inform your old sensei that you are re-evaluating your situation and thinking of trying another school. Don't allow her to pressure you into not going to the new place. Inform the new sensei of your situation and see how it goes. What do you have to lose? Just a friendly suggestion.
Again, thank you all for replying.
Still not sure exactly what the right path is for me, and I hate that. I'm usually pretty sure of what I should do (even if I hate the idea). This particular instance has got me baffled and it's a very uncomfortable place to be.
My Sensei sent me an email and apologized for the "misunderstanding" about the weapons class/black belt track membership requirement. I appreciate the the effort, but it still boils down to.....pay more and learn more.
My nine year old son is in a constant state of tears and begging me to go back to class. We've missed two classes this week and it's like the end of the world. Hard to keep your focus when the absolute light of your life is bawling and begging you to do something you're not sure about.
I'll update when and if I make a decision about what to do.
Jeff A
Take the kid to class! You can set and watch, that in itself would be a statement to where you stand and your kid still gets to attend. You have already been given great advice, start your shotokan and let your son continue where he is and it will all work out. The worst thing you could do is what you are doing, if you continue to refuse to let yourself or your son train because of this it will eventually lead to no training at all. You will have to excuse my bluntness but you asked for advice and you have received it, now do something about it. Emails and forums are not going to settle this for you.
wingchundo.girl
08-08-2008, 21:34
I agree that you should vote with your feet. If you feel any kind of negativity about this arrangement, then I say act on it because life is too short to allow others to work on your psyche. If you can feel positive to let your son continue, then do that too.
There is such a yin and yang aspect to the martial arts industry because of the exact dichotomy of being both a student and a customer. When schools treat you as a customer then the school is labeled a "McDojo" because they are only trying to make money. Duh. This is understandable because martial arts industry has yet another dichotomy to deal with, that of part time instructors and full time instructors, both needing and meeting different needs in their lives and the lives of others whether altruistic or profit minded.
I know that in any business relationship and let's be honest this is a business relationship, there are businesses that treat you like a customer or a client. A student becomes a great student, when he is treated like a client and not a customer. This almost always increases the bottom line.
This is really about customer service. Your instructor instead of giving you excellent service decided to treat you like a customer instead of a valued student. By his own actions he is doing exactly to you what he accuses you of, but in reverse. He then allowed his ego to respond to your request by open forum. This, to me is the real underlying issue that may be bothering you the most. He responded emotionally.
If any other business owner did that, then you would probably never return to their establishment. He should have given you the class, and then explained that the weapons class no longer falls under the category of bonus class because of policy change. Realize that many businesses that you deal with have the disclaimer "can change policy without prior notice." But you should be informed of what constitutes a bonus class and these classes should be available regularly. If they don't, then label it a "McDojo.
Sometimes you feel like a student, sometimes you feel like a customer, sometimes you are treated like a student, sometimes you are treated like a customer. This relationship does set both parties up for a confusing and unclear relationship. The best is when you are treated like a client.
Good luck.
What the school is doing is beyond good business practice. It has McDojo written all over it.
If your kid really loves the school, it can't hurt to let him keep going there, and like Nick said, you don't have to join in. Or does your kid want you to take him there and join him in training (like a father/son bonding thing rather than your son just enjoying the class)? If your son is fine with you just watching him train, then you can just take him to this class and go train with the Shotokan class. (Unless they train on the same day?)
If your son really wants you to join him in the class (in which case, aww, that's sweet :) ), what if you make a deal with him? You join him in one or two classes a week at this dojo then he joins you in one or two classes a week at the Shotokan dojo, and after a couple weeks or so, you can both talk it over and decide what to do then. Maybe by then he will find that the Shotokan dojo is just as enjoyable. Or maybe he'll be fine with you two training in different dojos and you can just find another activity to share with him.
....
There is such a yin and yang aspect to the martial arts industry because of the exact dichotomy of being both a student and a customer. When schools treat you as a customer then the school is labeled a "McDojo" because they are only trying to make money. .....
No. A place gets labeled a McDojo usually because they teach bull ****.
wingchundo.girl
08-08-2008, 23:50
"There is a difference between a teacher and a salesman also. This McDojo Karate mall multi fee structure stuff is a bunch of crap!"
Yes that's true that a McDojo is a school that teaches bull ****. I was just referencing a quote from an earlier response about multi fee structure.
Thanks.
I know that if my Sensei ever were to raise the rates on me, I would have to leave immediately! :D
I left this hanging out there earlier in the thread, hoping to get a response from my sensei, but I didn't. Soooo, I feel the need to clean it up, just to make the rest of you jealous. I pay 5$ a month for excellent instruction in jujutsu and even judo ( occasionally ). We (my son and I) feel blessed to have such an opportunity.
Robert,
I am not trying to blow smoke up your rear! But thank you for keeping us from these situations.
Pay more = Learn More = Pay Less Learn Only Part of What I can teach you = Lousy School. I say this as a MA teacher of over 30 years.
The instructor needs to pay her bills but tiered fee structures should speak to how many hours you can train not what you can train in.
As a father I would probably do what made my kid happy but would not worry a rat's a$$ about upsetting this Sensei as I feel this kind of crap has more of a place in a used car lot than in a MA school.
Peace
Dennis
"There is a difference between a teacher and a salesman also. This McDojo Karate mall multi fee structure stuff is a bunch of crap!"
Yes that's true that a McDojo is a school that teaches bull ****. I was just referencing a quote from an earlier response about multi fee structure.
Thanks.
My Judo teacher was a university history professor. My Karate teachers were 1) a cop and 2) in the Japanese restuarant and resturaunt supply business. All 3 taught for the love of the art only. Mat fess were dirt cheap. The dojo were all ran right.
My Brazilian Jiu Jitsu teacher teaches Gracie Jiu Jitsu for a living. It is his life's profession. The monthly mat fees are costly compared to most martial arts schools. He has probably around 200 paying students currently. I did the math based on what I estimate his cost are and I would not trade pay checks with him ...no way. But he is a good teacher and what I pay is well worth it to me. I can train 6 days a week if I wanted too. Days and evenings. There is a Muay Thai coach teaching there and I could train with them at no additional cost. It may be a business but that dojo is a like a family. Seriously there isn't a tighter group of individuals around anyway.
A teacher teaches a way. He teaches what he thinks is the right way. The way doesn't change. The way is the training.
I'm all fired up now....I got to go teach.
Gambatte Kudasai
A teacher teaches a way. He teaches what he thinks is the right way. The way doesn't change. The way is the training.
I'm all fired up now....I got to go teach.
Gambatte Kudasai
Thanks Ed!
Again, thanks to all who have taken the time to respond. This has been a very difficult time for me and the responses from board members has been greatly appreciated!
I'm going to be very honest here. I may get called to the carpet, but at least I'll feel like I've been true to myself.
My Sensei has responded to some the concerns I've had. I know some people may feel that it's a McDojo (they may be right), but for better or for worse, it's my dojo, it's my Sensei, and I can't get past the feeling of respect that I have. With that being case, here's the latest...
Sensei has responded and informed me that if weapons training is what I want to do she'd be willing to work something out with me, without joining the Black Belt Track club. I honestly feel that my Sensei is a good person and wants to do the right thing. I have an enormous amount of respect for her. Perhaps is not justified, but I can't get around the fact that this is the person who's been teaching me for years and allowed me to progress to the point where I'm at now. Perhaps her viewpoints on how she runs her dojo are not entirely in-line with what my thougths are, but at what point does the student have to submit to the fact that they must follow their Sensei's direction, even if they don't agree with it?
This whole issue has had my stomach in knots for the last week. Compounding the issue is my son's desire to continue training at our current dojo. I said I'd give an update when I'd come to a conclusion. I'm not quite there yet, but I'm seriously leaning towards continuing training with my Sensei, for a variety of reasons, my son's desire being high upon the list.
Is it a McDojo? Perhaps. Does that mean that I won't be able to gain anything useful from it? I don't think so. Could I find better training elsewhere? Again, perhaps. But the bottom line is I'd probably just not train anywhere, so I guess what I've currently got is better than having nothing at all.
thanks again for all the input and suggestions. I truly appreciate them.
Respectfully,
jeffa
Jeff,
You have the most important thing in mind, your son! With that , you will make the right decision. It will all work out, one way or another.
Sensei has responded and informed me that if weapons training is what I want to do she'd be willing to work something out with me, without joining the Black Belt Track club.
Glad to hear about this. :) Best thing would be to find something that'll make both you and your son happy. :)
There is a difference between a teacher and a salesman also. This McDojo Karate mall multi fee structure stuff is a bunch of crap!
As a teacher you teach a way (an approach). You teach what you think is the right way. The way does not change based on someones due structure. If the way includes weapons training it includes weapons training. If the way includes grappling it it includes grappling. If it doesn't it doesn't.
I am quite new to this forum and just came across this post. WOW! This is the sort of person gives the martial arts a real bad taste and smell! This instructor (and I hate to use that term when saleman is more appropriate) has no idea what the martial arts are all about. I suppose to him being committed is to sign over your checking account and that his idea of a way of life is a good profit margin. I would run away from this guy as quick as possible and take your son too. You do not want him to learn anything from this guy. I have trained with my daughter since she was 12 and never have we been charged extra for weapons training, or grappling etc. It is all a part of the broader picture. We have trained in Japan and the USA with some of the top instructors and money was never a pre-requisite, only dedication. Good luck!
Geeze I missed the part where "sensei" was a woman. That disappoints me even more. I'd still gracefully bow out and leave.
Geeze I missed the part where "sensei" was a woman. That disappoints me even more. I'd still gracefully bow out and leave.
You could explain this?
Geeze I missed the part where "sensei" was a woman. That disappoints me even more. I'd still gracefully bow out and leave.
Can you please provide an explanation for that comment or help to put it in context? It looks bad on the initial read. Perhaps it did not come across as intended?
No, suffice it to say I will rephrase it to say I am disappointed with the instructor whatever their gender. OK?
Not OK. You have been asked twice to explain your original post. Please do so.
I am of the opinion that what you stated likely came out the wrong way. No biggie, it happens to me frequently.
A simple explanation will clear things up nicely.
Thank you...,
I guess the best way to say this is that I have had several very negative experiences with sensei who have made a business out of an art, both male and female. I have always felt that most of the women I trained with were more attuned to the artistic side, and less influenced by the monetary. This was not meant as a slam to women martial artists, just the opposite. My closest training partner and the person who corrects my techniques is a woman, my daughter. The reason I did not want to say more is that I was worried this would become more twisted through my inability to make my reasons clear. It was not intended as a sexist post. If that was the take on it then I am more than willing to offer my apologies.
Thank you. Nicely handled in my view and an interesting observation to boot. I had not noticed anything gender specific in that regard but then again, I have only had one actual female who was my primary instructor though I have had several females who taught on a pretty regular basis. I have also been very lucky with regard to my instructors in general in that they have been not at all concerned with money and very concerned with their students.
That being said, I don't have a problem with an instructor who is concerned about money as long as the expectations are not changing all the time. Heck, people have to make a living after all and nothing is free. If you know in advance that certain things are going to cost more, you then can make an informed decision about what you do or do not pay for. Pain in the rear, but not a problem in my view as long as things are out in the open ahead of time. Its when there are hidden fees or things change without prior notice or explanation that it starts to get shady. Unfortunately the situation discussed in this thread sounds like the latter rather than the former...
Thanks again!
Regards,
Jason
tkdman99
09-14-2008, 18:58
Hello All,
I'm a new poster so if this topic is in the wrong forum would an admin please move it to the appropriate one? I'll try to keep this short, but it might get a little long-winded...
Well Jeff I can understand wanting to be paid well for services. I have steadily raised my price over the last 8 years. I did however 'grandfather' a lot of member in at the price they were accustom to.
It is a SERIOUS marketing error for him to charge more for more knowledge. I would assume you feel like he has his hands in your pocket all the time. Also, if you are going to increase price you MUST give back an even greater value that the price of tuition.
My only comment to the posts talking about the McDojo. Yeah, there is some real crap out there, but please don't lump all commercial schools in that phrase. I have seen some horrible community center / back yard schools and clubs also.
Good luck!
Wow there are so many good responses here that you'll be able to make a very educated choice concerning what to do.
The first thing that made alarms go off for me was that the dojo's prices climbed each time a move to another location was made. I can understand that with more rent there would be more overhead... but when different pricing packages became involved I got scared for you. Did the new pricing packages mean that what you paid determined what you would be taught? Then, maybe I didn't read this correctly, the statement was made that a dedicated student paid for a certain program, and if they didn't then the student was a consumer... I'm sorry, so people please be patient with me. If I was told something like this the first thing that I would have done was told the teacher that they have martial arts business confused with the martial arts life. Dedication shouldn't be based on whether you can pay a certain price, but should be measured by how much time and practice you put into the style that you learn.
I can speak from example here; my teacher moved from teaching in his basement, to teaching at the YMCA, to finding a location where he has a partner that he shares the space with in a storefront kwoon (Kung Fu School). The pricing for class has changed very little, and people tell my Sifu that he should be charging more than what he charges for classes. My Sifu is an excellent martial artist and demands the same from his students. If a student can't pay for certain months, he continues to let them train. He has even given free tuition to students with talent that really want to train. Don't let your son be the reason that you stay in Dracula's lair. He is just a child, and can't really make mature choices for himself. All he knows is that he's having fun. Martial arts aren't always meant to be fun as you know. It is hard work. Think about the style also...after your son finishes having fun, it someone tries to abduct him, or if a bully should provoke him, will he be able to defend himself?
My friend...bite the bullet. Take the Shotokan class...It's a great martial art. Take your son to the Shotokan Dojo...let him speak to the Sensei...Don't let him continue to train at this other place. I think they will teach him the wrong values somewhere along the line.
Tajiey
Well....I thought I'd give everybody an update on my dojo situation.
First off, let me say "thank you" to everybody who responded. I appreciate the input.
When this issue came up in the middle of last year I really struggled with it. Even though I had issues I decided to continue my membership and both myself and my son made an agreement to "really dedicate" ourselves to our training. I think we did a great job at it.
However, it soon became apparent to me that my Sensei had some real issues with me. She held a local tournament and made it a "requirement" for all dojo members to participate. I didn't. Things got really bad after that. She was short with me, wouldn't look me in the eye, basically gave me the cold shoulder in class. It was really uncomfortable. She brought in two very senior black belts (who just so happened to be her sons) during a sparring session and they proceeded to basically give me a "butt whuppin" like I've never experienced. I'm a 43 year old blue belt. The two black belts were both very young (I'd guess one of them to be in his late teens and the other to be in his early to mid 20's). My body was so sore the next day that I could barely move.
I still wasn't ready to call it quits. I'm REALLY hard-headed and stubborn when I get riled up. I recenlty had a stripe test, and during the test I had a couple of questions because the requirements were somewhat vague. Sensei made it very obvious that my questions irritated her, and that she didn't think I should be asking anything of her.
And I think the final straw was when she started pushing "fitness packages" (various combinations of hand wraps, gloves, jump ropes, etc). I think this really brought it home to me on exactly how "commercial" the dojo had become. She posted on the website how "really good karate parents" would buy this stuff for their kids. The inference that I got from it was that if you didn't buy this stuff you werent really a "good karate parent".
So to make a loooong story just a little bit shorter, I've withdrawn both my and my son's membership from the dojo. It really has made me sad. We've both got a lot of time and sweat invested there, but it's just time to move on.
We're visiting other dojo's in the area. We're going to go back and re-visit the Shotokan dojo, and we've also scheduled visits to a Isshinryu dojo. There's a Wu Ming Tau Kung Fu class starting at the end of the month. I've talked with the instructor and it sounds interesting. I've never heard of this style and would be interested in any input people might have on it.
The one lesson I've learned from this whole experience is to ask a "lot of questions" before committing. I didn't do that at my old dojo. If I had I probably wouldn't have spent the time there that I did.
So, again....thanks for all the input. I'll check back in and give an update when we find a place to train.
Jeff
Webmaster
01-15-2009, 12:01
Hey Jeff,
Sorry to see that things worked out the way they have at the old dojo, but based on what we were getting from your previous posts, I figured it would come to this.
I have never heard of the style of Kung Fu that you referred to, but might be worth a look, or at least maybe one of our resident Chinese MA types can give you some additional info. The Shotokan dojo that you are planning to revisit would be my first stop, if for no other reason than it was high on your list from last year.
Good luck and let us know where you decide to train!
Sorry it came to that. :(
But for the record, I called it !!! (page 1) :D
I am so happy that you and your son have moved on. So many get disgusted and just quit the MA's altogether. The woman cannot sell her talent and ability, so she sells equipment "packages" instead. Now that is original! :rolleyes:
Best of luck to you both in finding a new "home." I really think you did the right thing by leaving.
Well, just a quick update.
My son and I watched an Isshinryu class. I don't think it's quite the right place for us. Only two adults in the class. Lot's of (rather uninterested looking) youths. I didn't see a lot of instruction from the sensei.
Next up.....we're going to visit the Shotokan dojo next week. I hope my son finds it appealing, I was very impressed when I visited there last year.
Jeff
AlivePFC
01-23-2009, 15:57
As a student and sifu/sensei I can tell you that if the instructor doesn't love what he does then your experience will suffer. Martial arts is about the person and self-perfection just as much as self-preservation. Find a place you enjoy with people you connect with and your martial experience will be the best ever.
Just my thought
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