View Full Version : I'm interested in learning Aikido but I'm a little concerned.
I discovered that there are a few dojos located in my area. My concern is whether or not this are will work in terms self-defense.
I did some research and love what this art represents, promoting love and peace, defending yourself as well as the protecting the attacker (not seriously injuring him/her). It all seems too good.
Will this art work in a real situation? Can I apply it against other styles and on the street? Or is this style just eye candy? I have heard many mixed opinions concerning this issue, however many seemed biased. I want an honest answer.
Jonathan Randall
08-26-2008, 23:26
Like any martial art, it depends upon how well it is taught by the instructor and how well it is studied by the student. There are quicker routes to basic self-defence out there, but Aikido can be a very rich and rewarding art for the long term. I would disregard the posturings of the "aliveness" crowd on some forums as few at such places have studied a traditional art long enough to come to an informed opinion. Also, do remember that we live in an age of firearms and, thus, any unarmed system has severe limitations.
Prince Loeffler
08-26-2008, 23:27
I discovered that there are a few dojos located in my area. My concern is whether or not this are will work in terms self-defense.
I did some research and love what this art represents, promoting love and peace, defending yourself as well as the protecting the attacker (not seriously injuring him/her). It all seems too good.
Will this art work in a real situation? Can I apply it against other styles and on the street? Or is this style just eye candy? I have heard many mixed opinions concerning this issue, however many seemed biased. I want an honest answer.
I believed that the only person that can truly answer this question is YOU. As for the effectiveness of the art, There will always be detractors regardless.
Personally, Aikido is not the only ultimately art for self defense, there are many others that caters to one area of the martial arts that you're looking for.
I have spoken to some law enforcement officer, security guards and bouncers who takes Aikido / Hapkido / Juijutsu or any other non-striking art due to the legal ramnification when it comes to subduing a the dreg of this society...errr I mean suspects or drunk patrons.
as an art, its not my cup of tea even though I dabbled in it for a while.
I believed that the only person that can truly answer this question is YOU. As for the effectiveness of the art, There will always be detractors regardless.
Personally, Aikido is not the only ultimately art for self defense, there are many others that caters to one area of the martial arts that you're looking for.
I have spoken to some law enforcement officer, security guards and bouncers who takes Aikido / Hapkido / Juijutsu or any other non-striking art due to the legal ramnification when it comes to subduing a the dreg of this society...errr I mean suspects or drunk patrons.
as an art, its not my cup of tea even though I dabbled in it for a while.
Interesting answer. I guess it depend on the intensity of the training as well as my willingness to perfect the art. But still, it depends partially on the art as well. Has far as any other art, Aikido is the only one that is in my reach aside from Karate and I'm unable to do that right now.
I'd like to hear some more feed back on this matter.
Jonathan Randall
08-27-2008, 01:48
Interesting answer. I guess it depend on the intensity of the training as well as my willingness to perfect the art. But still, it depends partially on the art as well. Has far as any other art, Aikido is the only one that is in my reach aside from Karate and I'm unable to do that right now.
I'd like to hear some more feed back on this matter.
I took a ten week course at the school where I studied Tai Chi. Even though I did not, and could not realistically have in such a short period of time, obtain any proficiency with the art, it did really help me with my falling skills. Seriously; try it, and after a few months if it isn't for you, the worst that will have happened is that you have dramatically improved your breakfalls (always a good thing) and have gotten some idea of what the art is like.
I took a ten week course at the school where I studied Tai Chi. Even though I did not, and could not realistically have in such a short period of time, obtain any proficiency with the art, it did really help me with my falling skills. Seriously; try it, and after a few months if it isn't for you, the worst that will have happened is that you have dramatically improved your breakfalls (always a good thing) and have gotten some idea of what the art is like.Your right. I found a great school that's the same distance from my house to my work place so it's in my range. (Google Maps is a great tool.) It's afford at $80; I figure I can save $20 a week because I spend that much on junk anyway. And the hours cater to my schedule; the school opens 3 days a week and 2 of the days is a given. I'm checking this place out tomorrow for sure.
Darthmaul
09-30-2008, 10:00
i dont like the term self defence I would prefer street survival. If you want to learn something that might keep you alive check out someone like your own (USA) tony blauer...
Dear Deep,
You have already been given some excellent answers. This is a complex answer from my limited view point. The thing about Aikido is that the techniques are not REALLY Aikido, and the way you train and in what dojo makes a huge difference. Some dojos only teach the soft "dance" version of Aikido. Others do emphasize a practical approach and application. Finding the right dojo is key, but beyond that understanding that Aikido is quite different than many other arts is really improtant. Aikido take a very long time to master enough to use it in a VERY practical way, once done however my humble opinion is that it is extremely practical if for no other reason than you learn how not to get hurt yourself. Of course the techniques have practical application also but not in the way we learn them in the dojo. There is a difference between the "street" version and the dojo version; it is the underlying concepts that are Aikido, not the techniques themselves. The techniques are tools one uses to to learn what Aikido really is. The statement " the Tao that can be explained is not the Tao" comes to mind. Only through experiencing Aikido can it be understood and for many people it take several years of study to reach this point of enlightenment. After that it take many years of study for the body to master what the brain intuits.
Many of the techniques of Aikido are used by law enforcement, and are supplemented with other combat techniques also. For those people who have a real life need of fighting techniques, a more well rounded approach to the combative arts is recommended and they study many forms of fighting. My old Sensei used to tell us all the time "there are no superior martial arts...only superior martial artists" I humbly propose that there is no one art that will ALWAYS be victorious over all the others. I have it on good authority form those who do work in law enforcement or are in the military, that in true combat (or self defense) you need a wide range of skills to draw from.
The truth of the matter also is that Aikido is best studied as an adjunct to other fighting arts. The hardest thing in Aikido to do is teach someone Aikido who has never trained in any other martial art. For me it was VERY helpful to have studied karate-do first, so I already knew basic punches and blocks, foot movement and kicks. Aikido has helped me learn to close the distance and control the situation, rather than exchanging blows. One question you may want to ask yourself is "how much danger and I really in on a daily basis" I have studied martial arts for over 30 years and have fortunately never needed it to defend my life, but have fallen a number of times and Aikido rolls . The answer may help drive your decision.
So in short from my limited point of view, the answer to your question "is Aikido practical?" is YES it can be devastatingly effective and NO, because it take so much dedication to stick with it and truly understand the fundamental concepts. I wish you luck and if you are still interested in Aikido, try looking for a dojo associated with the Aikido Schools of Ueshiba. They seek to ensure you learn the practical while still teaching the harmony and peaceful nature. Or perhaps school that is associated with the late Shioda Sensei (Yoshinkan Aikido) who also taught a very combative form of Aikido. In the long run only you can decide if Aikido is for you, but it is certainly worth the exploration, and I’ll add very mentally and physically challenging; therefore… a great deal of fun.
Respectfully submitted :bow:
doubleouch
11-09-2008, 13:08
Really well thought out answer Ed. It's cool that this didn't get into an Aikido bashing thread. I'm always amazed and proud when someone can look at their own art with a real objective eye. Good for you for being able to do that. It's more rare than it should be.
Have you inquired about the affiliation of your dojo? There are a few organizations that teach aikido.
I have been involved with the Seishinkan dojo located in Dickinson, Texas under godan Sensei Walter Marker PhD (also a NASA scientist).
http://www.seishinkan.net/
http://www.bayareacenter.net/index.php?submenu=Martial_Arts&src=gendocs&ref=Aikido&category=Martial_Arts
Here are some videos of the Nidan test for sensei Mike Jones and his son Ryan
http://bayareacenter.ning.com/video
The dojo was/is affiliated with the Aikido Association of America (Chicago), Toyoda shihan, and claims ties to the Ueshiba family.
http://www.aaa-aikido.com/
I am presently training with yodan sensei John Malone who is currently independent, but who trained first in UK and then in Canada with Ki Society and Aikikai.
It is a good thing to inquire about the roots of your dojo and that of the trainers.
uchi_deshi
11-19-2008, 17:22
i dont know why the ones who study or teach aikido didnt say the words... it takes 3 months just to find out if it is for you. this is what my teacher says at times to some people.
they should have also said the the ki and aikikai groups train really soft when you compair it to yoshinaki. i do know the reason behind this. if you want to go to the oldest group of aikido... then you go to aikikai.. if you want some realism to the training you go to yoshinakai.
far as law enforcement goes yoshinakai is wat is used in tokyo and police department in some canada citys and the RCMP...
it all depends on what type of school your looking for...just as the end of it all it takes 3 months in any martial art to know if it is for your self...
I recall the times that I have seen a brown or a black belt candidate fending off multiple ukes who are jumping him during his test....and wonder what the heck are they talking about when I read someone chat about "soft" aikido.....Being a student of both jujutsu and aikido, gives me a fair idea of what "hard" and "soft" might mean but aikido can be applied on the street just as hurtful and/or as deadly as the situation could deserve it. It is true, though, that in the dojo, both ukes and toris (nage) want to go to work or school the next day without having to visit the hospital.
uchi_deshi
11-25-2008, 15:03
to really understand it is to train with them both. i know that aikikai group does not like to train with yoshinkan group. reason being the yoshinkan throws are way harder on the body. you got to look at the history of each aikido style. the first style of aikido that was out there is aikikai group this is when O-Sensei was in his about 60's. by this time his body was losing strenght. yoshinkan came about when he was still in about his 30's. this is when everything O-Sensei was doing is still hard.
this is the start of the difference between the hard and soft in aikido between the 2 systems. aikido is all the same, but to really see the differences you got to look at each system as it is done. the whole thing starts in the history of it all. i do understand it but it take a long time to explain it on here..
De_Franza
11-25-2008, 16:32
Great thread!
Ross, any verdict?
Tried it? if so, how do/did you like it?
Just being nosy. :D
uchi_deshi
11-25-2008, 20:28
who are you talking to...
David Craik
11-26-2008, 04:38
Since the person who started the thread is the only one with 'Ross' in his name and the only one trying Aikido for the first time, probably him.
Just a guess.
These sorts of threads always slay me! "Hard" vs. "soft"...Aikikai vs. Yoshinkan...is Aikido an effective system self-defense? Blah, blah, blah.
First, the Aikikai isn't a "style" of Aikido...it's an international organization (properly as the IAF). As such, it's an umbrella organization with all sorts of diverse styles & training methodologies. Certainly, some are quite "soft" and there isn't much emphasis placed upon realism...this mainly due to "Dan inflation" and the fact that an increasing number of Aikido instructors lack any substantive experience in another martial art.
Others are very "hard" and place considerable emphasis upon not only practical self-defense...but even combat effectiveness. The particular organization I belong to (the Makoto Aikido Kyokai) is affiliated with the Aikikai and is quite "hard." No blathering on about Ki or the Force or love and crunchy granola goodness. "Aiki as Love" is understood in our organization as choosing not to crush their joints. My instructor was a SWAT officer for 15 years...and he brings that experience directly onto the mat. No telescoping punches, no throwing yourself on the ground, no nonsense.
"Dojo Aikido" is vastly different than "real Aikido." Those in the know know the difference between the two. "Dojo Aikido" is martial arts that only work in controlled environments (i.e. dojo) and with compliant training partners. Indeed, it deserves to be roundly mocked.
In my mind, the main deficiency of Aikido is (as I mentioned earlier):
1) "Dan inflation"...that is, awarding people rank and instructor status that truly don't deserve it, but who have merely fulfilled their required mat time and time in grade. This, of course, is not unique to Aikido...
2) Lack of substantive exposure to other martial arts systems (to which I also include Western boxing and graeco-roman wrestling). Thus, when you have training partners who don't know how to punch, kick or clinch...it's very hard to learn how to defend against someone who actually does. So, when you have a dojo full of such people (including the instructors themselves)...you get the idea.
IMHO, a lot of the "soft" aikido chat is mythology and urban legend. Aikido itself is not "soft" or "hard" but the person demonstrating it or teaching it might be giving either the "soft" or "hard" versions of it.
Take Seagal in his movies, he gives a "hard" cinematographic version that is highly coreographed for the sake of the stuntmen. However, in the dojo, Seagal would probably demonstrate the "softer" version. Isn't that the case for every martial art school? Or, are the other arts killing or maiming their students these days?:D
IMHO, a lot of the "soft" aikido chat is mythology and urban legend. Aikido itself is not "soft" or "hard" but the person demonstrating it or teaching it might be giving either the "soft" or "hard" versions of it.
Take Seagal in his movies, he gives a "hard" cinematographic version that is highly coreographed for the sake of the stuntmen. However, in the dojo, Seagal would probably demonstrate the "softer" version. Isn't that the case for every martial art school? Or, are the other arts killing or maiming their students these days?:D
And that's a very good point. You touch on one of the more obvious reasons that often seems to escape the not-so-keen minds of the Bullshido-type crowd of critics.
I also train in Iai, and I often hear unfounded criticism from some chuckleheads about how it's not a "real" martial art or nobody would attack "that way" with a sword...or at least they wouldn't (because, of course, their expertise comes from anime and Hollywood movies:wink2:). My response: "Would you prefer me to use a shinken instead of a bokken? How much confidence would you have in your swordmanship then?" Iai is about anticipating an attack...not waiting for it.
De_Franza
11-26-2008, 09:27
Since the person who started the thread is the only one with 'Ross' in his name and the only one trying Aikido for the first time, probably him.
Just a guess.
Impeccable Logic, David.
uchi_deshi
11-26-2008, 11:09
first thing is when i said soft and hard i dont mean as in internal...i never said aikikai was a style. i said a group/club... last thing i was saying was all aikido is the same other then one trains softer then the other...
i have trained with an aikikai group in the past even one guy came from the group...all his movements were really soft. just like at the school i visted and trained in for that day...i dont know about all but from what i seen and know the uke does not really attack the shite very good so the waza gets the real feel to it... i say this from experience as well. i seen a 5th dan on the MCBH (marine corps base hawaii) in hawaii. i was the only yoshinkan teacher in hawaii. it was really bad for his lvl.
im not trying to get in a debate with this...i just wanted to give my point to help him pick a group
..... Bullshido-type crowd of critics. :D
..... ... Iai is about anticipating an attack...not waiting for it.And I thought that it was the art of drawing the sword and cutting with it immediately!:bow:
A.J. Bryant
11-27-2008, 08:25
I also train in Iai
Brian,
Nice to see you finally found an Iaido dojo to study at. Where did you eventually go? Kansas City, Chicago, Memphis?
Happy Thanksgiving all!
And I thought that it was the art of drawing the sword and cutting with it immediately!:bow:
That too...:wink2:
Brian,
Nice to see you finally found an Iaido dojo to study at. Where did you eventually go? Kansas City, Chicago, Memphis?
Happy Thanksgiving all!
Kansas City. Studying MJER (Seitokai) with a yondan who relocated to KC about 2 years ago.
uchi_deshi
12-02-2008, 05:29
i also study Iaido as well... iaido is the art of drawing the sword but when you add an other cut its no longer iaido it becomes batto ho...
then you can not forget about iai-jitsu. this is when both swords are out.
SteffenBerg
12-02-2008, 12:27
then you can not forget about iai-jitsu. this is when both swords are out.
:confused:
Not to open up a can of worms but...
I didn't know there was a difference between iaido / iaijutsu... I was under the impression that the use of the suffix -do and -jutsu would depend on the school.... And even when a ryu is an "iaijutsu" tradition, I've heard teachers refer to it as Iaido... and use the terms interchangeably (except for when discussing Seitei...)...
Just my 2 yen.
Steffen
Thanks for the insight guys. I did find a local dojo that is associated with the ASU. I paid them a visit in October and I was impressed with what I saw. It was only one class so I plan on taking another visit. The dojo was well kept and the class looked fun and very formal at the same time. There was about 10-12 student in that class alone and I think thats a good turn out. The intructer was very serious about getting techiniques right and amde sure every learned them correctly. Supposedly he trained under a man who trained under Ueshiba himself with is a good thing, me thinks. As far as pricing its as fair s it gets. $80 a month for 3 classes a week/2 hours a class and $35 a year for being a member of the ASU. The website below. Tell me what you guys think.
http://www.westhartfordaikikai.com/
uchi_deshi
12-09-2008, 08:46
there is a difference between the iaido and iai-jitsu...
iaido is mainly just drawing the sword out in a kata type of pattern...being the it does mean the art of drawing the sword out...
iai-jitsu is when the swords are out... there is over 100 movements to this. the first 10 is simular to the ones in aikido's 10 movements with the sword. if i remember after the movement 15-20 becomes 2 swords. id have to look at my notes...
what your talking about is the same way back in the 70's and 80's that all martial arts is karate. that it is one system
there is a difference between the iaido and iai-jitsu...
iaido is mainly just drawing the sword out in a kata type of pattern......From my very limited training in iaido, if you are saying that there is no cutting or piercing movements in these iaido forms, I can say that I believe this to be incorrect. The purpose of drawing the sword is to cut, slash or thrust with it, finishing your imaginary foe and then shaking the imaginary blood off the blade before sheathing it into the scabbard. Now, if what you are saying is, that there is no actual cutting of for example, wet straw, then I agree with you.
uchi_deshi
12-10-2008, 01:45
no thats not what i mean... sorry you didnt understand...
iai-jitsu is when both swords are out. kinda like kendo but your training with live blades... the first one if both swords are pointing at each other.. the attacker goes up to jodan to cut...the otehr person thrust into throat... if your useing a live blade or advanced they cut to the neck...
iaido is the sword is not out...the person who is defending the sword is not out. when doing applications...
battoho is adding another cut to it...kinda like chasing the attacker...
David Craik
12-10-2008, 04:37
Each of those statements is absolutely wrong. A case could actually be made that when "both swords are out" you're no longer doing iai at all, you're doing kenjutsu. Steffen Berg is quite correct. MJER 'iaido' and MJER 'iaijutsu' have the same kata/waza and bunkai, for example, the majority of which are performed solo. The 'do' or 'jutsu' suffix is only the preference of the system head, founder, or the association. Many include multiple cuts and other movements, and in fact there is also one where you briefly chase the enemy. Several are also used in the seiteigata. And there are some dojo which perform tameshigiri too.
Battodo is also another name for iai, it is simply the preferred term for certain ryu, such as the Nakamura ryu. There is also 'battojutsu', I believe Ogawa ryu uses this term.
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