View Full Version : Takagiyoshinryu Sword, Stick, "Chain", and Unarmed Combat with Kacem Zoughari NYC Oct
Bujinkan New York City Benevolent Heart Dojo (http://www.bujinkanNYC.org) is pleased to announce a weekend seminar with Kacem Zoughari. The seminar will focus on Takagiyoshinryu Kodachijutsu, Jojutsu, Nawajutsu, and Jutaijutsu (High Tree - Raised Heart School: Small Sword, Walking-Stick, Rope, and Flexible Body Technique).
http://www.bujinkannyc.org/splash/kacem_seminar_splash.jpg
Mr. Zoughari is a well known Japanese History and Martial Arts researcher and practitioner. Born in Paris, France he began studying Martial Arts as a teenager and quickly began visiting Japan to further his studies. He has practiced Ninjutsu for over 20 years and is a personal student of Hatsumi Masaaki Sensei and Ishizuka Tetsuji Sensei.
Mr. Zoughari began his Ninjutsu training in 1986 in France. In 1989 he made his first trip to Japan where he trained with Ishizuka Sensei. From that point on he began spending a few months of every year living and training in Japan. Over the ensuing years Kacem became a personal translator for Hatsumi Sensei, acted as a translator for the Quest Video Company, and became a member of the Nihon Budo Gakkai (Japanese Martial Arts research organization).
Between 2001 and 2003 his role as the Lavoisier grant recipient allowed him to study full time in Japan and his research brought him into contact with many of the most well known martial artists in Japan including:
* Kuroda Tetsuzan
* Kono Yoshinori
* Sakai Eiji
* Hirakami Nobuyuki
* Yagyu Nobuharu
Academic Background:
Mr. Zoughari is currently a Ph.D. candidate in Japanese History and Culture at INALCO in Paris, France. INALCO is the National Institute of Oriental Language and Civilization. He has his Masters in Japanese from INALCO where his thesis was titled: Ninjutsu: Its Form, History, and Essence. His principle areas of study include:
* Japanese History
* Martial Arts History
* Weapons and techniques of the Edo era police
* Evolution of Martial Art form and movement
Publications:
Ninpo, Ninjutsu: L'Ombre de la lumičre by Kacem Zoughari Mr. Zoughari has published more than 25 articles on the topics of Japanese history and martial arts. These articles have been published in French, Japanese, Spanish, English, and many other languages.
A few of the publications in which these articles have been printed in include:
* Arts Martiaux Traditionnels d`Asie
* Hiden, Budo Bujutsu
* Karate-bushido
In November of 2003 his first book: Ninpo, Ninjutsu: L'Ombre de la lumičre was published by Guy Trédaniel in French. It was subsequently translated into Portuguese under the title A Arte do Ninja - Entre Ilusăo e Realidade .
New Book
His newest work, entitled Ninjutsu - Beyond the Shadows is expected from Tuttle Publishing in Spring of 2008. This book is written in English and promises to be the most thorough review of the history of Ninjutsu ever published outside of Japan. We will post additional information as soon as it is available.
Lectures & Seminars:
Mr. Zoughari has given lectures and seminar tours in over 15 countries and is a highly sought after teacher. The list of universities and organizations he has spoken at include:
* University of Cambridge
* Georgetown University
* American University
* Universityof Montreal
* University of Vienna
* University of Wellington
* SFEJ (French society of Japanese research)
* Osaka University
* Tsukuba University
* Gaikoku-go University
* Kogô University
Kacem continues to travel the world giving lectures and seminars. He is preparing to defend his dissertation, putting the finishing touches on his new book, and living with his family in Paris, France.
http://www.bujinkannyc.org/splash/Kacem_TYR_NYC_Banner_01a.jpg (http://www.bujinkannyc.org/splash/kacem_seminar.html)
This is going to be a fun, exciting, seminar!
SPACE IS LIMITED SO PLEASE RESERVE A SPOT OR REGISTER SOON.
For more information and details please visit our website:
http://www.BenevolentHeart.org
and/or check out the video:
http://www.youtube.com/v/t71rEyh7GYM&hl=en&fs=1
Webmaster
09-05-2008, 11:56
Josh, I hate to be rude, but after watching the video (and several others on the internet) of Mr. Zoughari, I have to honestly ask what makes him so special? His throws suck (the average Judo yellow belt looks better), no kuzushi or way too much reliance on strength for it, and his ukes look as if they are tanking for him. I won't comment on the sword work as I am not qualified to do so (I am sure others will) , but what I saw looked quite unrealistic.
Also, it is my understanding that Mr. Zoughari is no longer associated with the Bujinkan?
Anyway, sorry to rain on the parade, but I am sure the participants will have a good time.
His throws suck (the average Judo yellow belt looks better),
These aren't Judo throws. I've done Judo. If you are looking at the throws through the eyes of a modern Judoka (or jujitsuka) then you won't understand what he is doing. There are techniques that you need to see and feel first hand to understand. His movements lie outside of your understanding.
no kuzushi or way too much reliance on strength for it,
Having been his “uke” many times and out weighing him by about 50lbs (or more) and being stronger than him I'm sure that he isn't relying on strength. I also have a Judo background before starting in the Bujinkan.
and his ukes look as if they are tanking for him.
I can’t speak for all his “uke” but I know I try to knock his head off when I train with him. I also know most of the “uke” in the videos and I’m pretty sure they do their best too. Kacem does not use one “uke” but many in a seminar. He also picks people with a lot of experience. People that can hopefully push him and make him better by challenging him as much as possible.
I won't comment on the sword work as I am not qualified to do so (I am sure others will) , but what I saw looked quite unrealistic.
You start your sentence stating what you won’t do and stating that your are unqualified to comment. Then you continue your sentence and make an unqualified comment.
Also, it is my understanding that Mr. Zoughari is no longer associated with the Bujinkan?
Please clarify from whom you have heard this. You understanding is wrong.
Anyway, sorry to rain on the parade, but I am sure the participants will have a good time.
Wow, are you always this passive aggressive? In real life too?
Josh, I hate to be rude, but after watching the video (and several others on the internet) of Mr. Zoughari, I have to honestly ask what makes him so special?
From the deprecatory, stubborn, tone that you have throughout your post, I am doubtful that you have any interest in what does make him special nor will any of my words be persuasive to you. However, if you really want to know, I invite you to come to the seminar and find out for yourself.
What I am very curious about is why you are so cantankerous? What is your agenda? Who in your life has influenced you to write something so passive aggressive and rude?
starkjudo
09-05-2008, 13:42
These aren't Judo throws. I've done Judo. If you are looking at the throws through the eyes of a modern Judoka (or jujitsuka) then you won't understand what he is doing. There are techniques that you need to see and feel first hand to understand. His movements lie outside of your understanding.
"Outside your understanding" is usually code for "I can't explain it."
The human body only moves so many ways. You can't tell us that we wouldn't understand what he's doing and not expect that to be taken as total BS.
Webmaster
09-05-2008, 13:50
"Outside your understanding" is usually code for "I can't explain it."
The human body only moves so many ways. You can't tell us that we wouldn't understand what he's doing and not expect that to be taken as total BS.
Thank you Rob, I could not have said it better.
Webmaster
09-05-2008, 13:53
What I am very curious about is why you are so cantankerous? What is your agenda? Who in your life has influenced you to write something so passive aggressive and rude?
No agenda, just the techniques in the video look like crap. However, if you would like, I would be happy to lie and say how wonderful he looks and drink the Kool-Aid right along with you.
"Outside your understanding" is usually code for "I can't explain it."
I don't use code, I hardly post on the internet. I'm speaking from experience.
The human body only moves so many ways. You can't tell us that we wouldn't understand what he's doing and not expect that to be taken as total BS.
You may take it anyway you would like to. When I met Kacem, with 15 years of Bujinkan experience and 10 years of other martial arts experience I didn't understand half of what he was doing when he did techniques on me. His teacher is even harder to grasp. After knowing him and training with him as much as possible over the last 2+ years I still don't understand a great deal of what he does because he is at such a higher level than I. Simple enough for you? Other martial arts experience will not enable you to understand at least half of what Kacem is able to do.
No agenda, just the techniques in the video look like crap. However, if you would like, I would be happy to lie and say how wonderful he looks and drink the Kool-Aid right along with you.
You set a very poor example for the members of the martial arts community. You are entitled to your own opinion, but the way you express yourself shows little class and less maturity. Good thing there quite a few other martial arts communities and forums for non-aggressive, intelligent discourse.
Webmaster
09-05-2008, 14:11
You are entitled to your own opinion,
Gee, thanks Josh for acknowledging that I have the right to have an opinion!
Good thing there quite a few other martial arts communities and forums for non-aggressive, intelligent discourse.
I am sure that there are plenty that will drink the kool-aid right along with you.
Webmaster
09-05-2008, 14:18
You may take it anyway you would like to. When I met Kacem, with 15 years of Bujinkan experience and 10 years of other martial arts experience I didn't understand half of what he was doing when he did techniques on me. His teacher is even harder to grasp. After knowing him and training with him as much as possible over the last 2+ years I still don't understand a great deal of what he does because he is at such a higher level than I.
You've got 25 years of experience (I've got 36 years BTW) and you still cannot grasp what he is doing? Are you joking? Either that means he is a poor teacher or your own knowledge is very lacking.
Other martial arts experience will not enable you to understand at least half of what Kacem is able to do.
So he uses telekinesis or the Vulcan mind meld to do that which we will not understand? Paah-leeese! Tactics and strategy may be different from one art to another, but basic principles remain the same. Like Rob said, there is only so many ways to that a human body can move and that means that there are only so many ways to break balance (unless you are using telekinesis), lock/twist a joint, or throw another human to the ground. :rolleyes:
starkjudo
09-05-2008, 14:34
Every competent instructor I've ever seen was able to explain what he was doing in a way I understood it, since I was white belt. If you can't understand the technique, either there's something wrong with you, the instructor is a poor teacher, or he's BS-ing you. In any case, something's damaged.
nismophreek
09-05-2008, 14:44
You set a very poor example for the members of the martial arts community. You are entitled to your own opinion, but the way you express yourself shows little class and less maturity. Good thing there quite a few other martial arts communities and forums for non-aggressive, intelligent discourse.
This is one of the nicest, least aggressive forums out there. It is, however, very knowledgeable and straight forward. Don't expect to put media out with the high praises of someone and not expect criticism.
Interesting point Rob. From a purely pedagogical standpoint, I fail to understand how knowledge is going to be passed on by an instructor, and one would gain competency as a student, in a concept that cannot be communicated effectively.
I have no knowledge on this style of MA or the individual in question so I am certainly not qualified to comment on his technique. However, the idea that the knowledge is so esoteric that it cannot be communicated bothers me.
Tony Dismukes
09-05-2008, 15:06
Interesting point Rob. From a purely pedagogical standpoint, I fail to understand how knowledge is going to be passed on by an instructor, and one would gain competency as a student, in a concept that cannot be communicated effectively.
I have no knowledge on this style of MA or the individual in question so I am certainly not qualified to comment on his technique. However, the idea that the knowledge is so esoteric that it cannot be communicated bothers me.
It's been a long time since I trained in the Bujinkan, but I remember seeing a number of instructors who had legitimate physical skills but who seemed to have no idea of how to teach in a systematic way so that their students could gain the same skills as quickly as possible. Hatsumi himself seems to regard each demonstration as an intuitive "jazz" moment of artistic expression and leaves others to try figuring out what he is doing by imitation.
David Craik
09-05-2008, 15:54
Usually a person well-versed in a particular specialty of technique can look at techniques with the same purpose with a critical eye. A seasoned western style boxer can look at punches thrown by a Muay Thai fighter and judge whether they would be effective or not, there are only so many ways to apply one's fist to an opponent. An accomplished gymnast could likely look at XMA, parkour, cheerleading, and the 'Ninja Warrior' show and have something to share.
Similarly, an experienced student or teacher of one sword ryu can (and often do in an official capacity) judge the techniques of another - there are many similarities. If he is not aware of the bunkai of a kata he may not understand the movements of the body, but cutting is cutting. Tenouchi and hasuji are the same. Like jujutsu, the principles of effectively arriving at the same result - whether cutting or throwing - have been worked out hundreds of years ago. There should be nothing inherently mystical or hard to grasp about techniques designed to put a standing human on his back for a person with decades of experience of doing same. If uke is willingly being thrown it is obvious, regardless of style.
Robert has been throwing people for a long, long, time in many ways. He is a highly accomplished jujutsuka, and well understands the principles of kazushi. I cannot believe for a second that someone can come up with some new, magical way of flinging a human to the ground and Robert would not be familiar with the principles behind it.
As for me, I'm not a jujutsuka or judoka. But I will say that the brief sword work displayed strikes me as very unusual and leave it at that.
I can only say that if one has been training with this gentleman for over two years and he can not effectively explain how the techniques work, how much value is there to be gained from a weekend seminar?
Just some thoughts.
You've got 25 years of experience (I've got 36 years BTW) and you still cannot grasp what he is doing?
I find it unfortunate for you that have not found a teacher that is strong and knowledgeable enough in the martial arts that you don't understand what he is doing.
It was so refreshing, for me, to meet someone who could teach me the vastness of what I don't know.
Are you joking? Either that means he is a poor teacher or your own knowledge is very lacking.
He is an incredible teacher. I have learned more from him (and his teacher) in the short while I have known him than I have learned from everyone else put together. My knowledge is very lacking, especially when compared to his. However, I know I lack knowledge(/ability) and I'm doing my best to learn from someone who clearly knows a lot more than I do.
So he uses telekinesis or the Vulcan mind meld to do that which we will not understand? Paah-leeese!
Again, your posts lack decorum. As the operator of this website you should really try to set a good example for others.
Tactics and strategy may be different from one art to another, but basic principles remain the same. Like Rob said, there is only so many ways to that a human body can move and that means that there are only so many ways to break balance (unless you are using telekinesis), lock/twist a joint, or throw another human to the ground.
There are ways to to move and break balance that you do not understand and that I cannot explain to you. So in order to try to give you an idea as to what you do not understand I will draw upon Kacem’s writing.
This is how Kacem Zoughari explains the basic movement of modern martial artists (in one of his published works):
(I will use {} to help with the translation from French and to focus the quote on your issues.)
The transfer of body weight to take a step in daily movement occurs automatically: The center of gravity is directed forward, at the same time we are propelled by our right leg {could equally well be your left leg} as it remains behind us. In this type of movement we create an impulse{force} against the ground to move forward. {or for example to throw someone, in most Judo throws}
To simply outline: The force creating the horizontal displacement {and the vertical displacement when it comes to throws} is the resultant of two vectors; the strike from the leg against the ground and the weight of the body. The dynamic is such that, to produce a movement we must exert a force that goes against {gravity}. This model, as obvious as it is, forms in Japan and elsewhere, the basis for modern physical skills and acts as an explicative model for the traditional skills accounting for the differences in performance and intensity. This type of displacement is present in all of the sporting activities such as kendo, judo, aikido, jodo, etc.
The above quote illustrates the movement that you understand from modern martial arts. Your eyes and mind are trained to see this movement. What you appear not to know is:
…the principle employed in the classical schools, which is generally unknown… This principle allows us to improve the speed of movement all the while concealing the transfer of the body weight and increasing the power of execution of the technique. To the observer, the application of this principle is masked either by its slowness or blazing speed… At the instant of movement, instead of creating a force against the ground, we release, we take away any muscular tension from the legs to allow our body weight to come into play and in doing so we transform the force into a horizontal displacement under the control of body weight {to help you, maybe think of a three or more "one-inch punches" (strikes or locks), simultaneously directed at weak points in balance and structure, sometimes resulting in a "throw"}.
The above principle is what I cannot teach you. I am using Kacem’s words with a few additions. However I’m quite sure it isn’t enough to describe these principles in words. You will draw upon your own previous experiences (perhaps not entirely different from the ones I had before meeting Kacem) and try to understand what is written from your limited framework. If today’s posts are any indication. you will with little decorum and much hostility and a fair amount of misconstrued opinions try to argue the explanation above.
The only way for you to really understand what he does is to experience it. Advanced martial arts cannot be taught on paper(or on forums).
There is a reason why there are classes and seminars to learn martial arts. An internet forum is perhaps the worst place to learn and to explain techniques and principles from.
Can we please leave it as it is? Your lack of experiential openness and lack of politeness really limits the constructiveness of continuing any conversation with you or your minions. If you want to learn something, go to one of his seminars. Otherwise leave it be, as something you don't understand. Guess what that's ok. You don't have to know everything and you don't have to criticize everything. It's a waste of time and energy for everyone involved.
Also, it is my understanding that Mr. Zoughari is no longer associated with the Bujinkan?
I answered your questions to the best of my ability. Please attempt to answer my questions. I repeat, from whom did you hear that Mr. Zoughari is no longer associated with he Bujinkan? This is incorrect. (PERIOD)
starkjudo
09-05-2008, 16:07
Quick question for you Josh: If you cannot teach it, how has it been passed down?
Jay Bell
09-05-2008, 16:07
Minion? -_-
I was part of the Bujinkan for 10 years. I do understand (having also been heavily part of Systema for some years), the idea of "It can't be explained, you have to feel it.".
I'm going to let this lie for the time being. I'm interested in other people's perspectives on both sides of the debate.
Usually a person well-versed in a particular specialty of technique can look at techniques with the same purpose with a critical eye. ...
Robert has been throwing people for a long, long, time in many ways. He is a highly accomplished jujutsuka, and well understands the principles of kazushi.
Exactly he has been throwing people (in a sports way) for a long, long, time. So his "critical eye' views everything from a sports manner on how to throw people. In general, in Kacem's movement there are no throws, the "throw" is Kacem allowing the opponent out of a situation in which several joints/bones would be broken if he does not allow the person to take ukemi.
A modern trained martial artist will not understand this movement without lots of training in a different way of moving. It seems the expert eye is actually a blind eye.
Webmaster
09-05-2008, 16:16
Originally Posted by Mr.Zoughari
…the principle employed in the classical schools, which is generally unknown… This principle allows us to improve the speed of movement all the while concealing the transfer of the body weight and increasing the power of execution of the technique. To the observer, the application of this principle is masked either by its slowness or blazing speed… At the instant of movement, instead of creating a force against the ground, we release, we take away any muscular tension from the legs to allow our body weight to come into play and in doing so we transform the force into a horizontal displacement under the control of body weight {to help you, maybe think of a three or more "one-inch punches" (strikes or locks), simultaneously directed at weak points in balance and structure, sometimes resulting in a "throw"}.
Sorry Josh, but there is nothing new here and whether you wish to acknowledge as such or not, there is absolutely nothing special about it. This is all just kihon as expressed in dozens of arts. I've learned exactly what he describes and I know LOTS of modern budo and koryu folks that teach these principles. Despite your insistence otherwise, this is not exclusive to the ancient arts nor any particular school of teaching.
Can we please leave it as it is? Your lack of experiential openness and lack of politeness really limits the constructiveness of continuing any conversation with you or your minions.
Sure, but it was you that immediately went on the defensive and assumed that others are unwashed ignorant barbarians who lack the understanding of basic principles. I was already a shodan in Jujutsu and Judo before your mother had you potty trained. :D
Webmaster
09-05-2008, 16:17
Quick question for you Josh: If you cannot teach it, how has it been passed down?
Ninja (stolen from the Vulcans) Mind Meld. :laugh:
Webmaster
09-05-2008, 16:18
I answered your questions to the best of my ability. Please attempt to answer my questions. I repeat, from whom did you hear that Mr. Zoughari is no longer associated with he Bujinkan? This is incorrect. (PERIOD)
I have my sources.
Webmaster
09-05-2008, 16:21
Exactly he has been throwing people (in a sports way) for a long, long, time. So his "critical eye' views everything from a sports manner on how to throw people. In general, in Kacem's movement there are no throws, the "throw" is Kacem allowing the opponent out of a situation in which several joints/bones would be broken if he does not allow the person to take ukemi.
You obviously don't know jack about me! :laugh: I am not just a Judoka (I actually do very little Judo in our dojo) and my students would get a charge out of this "sports way" nonsense.
starkjudo
09-05-2008, 16:21
Exactly he has been throwing people (in a sports way) for a long, long, time. So his "critical eye' views everything from a sports manner on how to throw people. In general, in Kacem's movement there are no throws, the "throw" is Kacem allowing the opponent out of a situation in which several joints/bones would be broken if he does not allow the person to take ukemi.
A modern trained martial artist will not understand this movement without lots of training in a different way of moving. It seems the expert eye is actually a blind eye.
This alone suggests you've totally bought in and drunk the Kool-Aid. You have my pity.
Webmaster
09-05-2008, 16:31
I do understand (having also been heavily part of Systema for some years), the idea of "It can't be explained, you have to feel it.".
I actually agree with this. However, just because something "cannot be explained, but has to be felt" does not mean it cannot be taught. There are definitely things that are better conveyed (like about 95% of martial arts) in person and by touch and feel than the written or spoken word. On the other hand, a trained eye can pick up more than the untrained one, and the BS meter tends to be calibrated quite a bit lower.
Quick question for you Josh: If you cannot teach it, how has it been passed down?
Please be more specific. What is it?
Jay Bell
09-05-2008, 16:45
And there it is...what I was waiting for..
People that train in Bujinkan, especially when having no other deep experiance with other budo, often believe (as they are told this) that they have a much deeper understanding of movement, nage, kuzushi, etc then most other forms of budo...both gendai and koryu.
This. Isn't. True.
I believed for years that we were a notch above what other people were doing with movement..and it was very jaded.
I studied with other Budoka, post-Bujinkan and learned something. All in all, more than one high level Budoka that I spoke with, that were familiar with Hatsumi sensei's budo, thought his Jujutsu was weak and that his sword work was nice. Note...nice. Not revolutionary, not particularly special.
I worked with a handful of teachers following my time in the Bujinkan. It made a few things stand out. There are some impressive people in the Bujinkan who are incredibly knowledgable and talented. There are floods of people who are not, who give the impression to their students that they "get things" as far as body movement that others are lacking. I found out pretty quick that it just wasn't the case.
David Craik
09-05-2008, 16:54
Ok, here's some basic things. The position of his hands are backwards on the sword - I assume Mr. Zoughari is left-handed. And the saya is subsequently on his right hip, wrong. Thing is, swords were NEVER used or worn this way in Japan. There simply was no such thing as being left-handed in feudal Japan. Tea isn't poured with the left hand, a brush was never held in the left hand to write, incense was never lit with the left hand. There isn't a single kata or waza performed with a sword held or worn in this way by any koryu, because left-handedness was considered evil and was promptly "corrected". Only a tiny percentage of Japanese identify themselves as "left-handed" to this day, quite possibly the smallest percentage of any nation on earth for this reason. There is no historical precedent for kenjutsu being performed in this way, and is such a tip-off to nonsense technique that it is literally a cliche amongst koryu bujutsuka.
At 0:38 he drops to his knee to cut the leg of an unarmed opponent. Why?
What is going on with the sword flipping at around 0:48 when tori is completely out of range? Is this some odd sort of chiburi?
I have my sources.
What are your sources? Your sources are wrong. Why do you feel a need to hide them?
Webmaster
09-05-2008, 17:02
What are your sources? Your sources are wrong. Why do you feel a need to hide them?
I have LOTS of sources, and I don't need to explain them to you. If you say that Mr. Zoughari is still part of the Bujinkan, I'll take your word for it. It does not change my opinion regarding his waza.
Webmaster
09-05-2008, 17:08
Ok, here's some basic things. The position of his hands are backwards on the sword - I assume Mr. Zoughari is left-handed. And the saya is subsequently on his right hip, wrong. Thing is, swords were NEVER used or worn this way in Japan. There simply was no such thing as being left-handed in feudal Japan. Tea isn't poured with the left hand, a brush was never held in the left hand to write, incense was never lit with the left hand. There isn't a single kata or waza performed with a sword held or worn in this way by any koryu, because left-handedness was considered evil and was promptly "corrected". Only a tiny percentage of Japanese identify themselves as "left-handed" to this day, quite possibly the smallest percentage of any nation on earth for this reason. There is no historical precedent for kenjutsu being performed in this way, and is such a tip-off to nonsense technique that it is literally a cliche amongst koryu bujutsuka.
At 0:38 he drops to his knee to cut the leg of an unarmed opponent. Why?
What is going on with the sword flipping at around 0:48 when tori is completely out of range? Is this some odd sort of chiburi?
Oh, I wish I could use a sword left handed. It's so unfair to us lefties. :)
Anyway, I was wondering about the picture I attached. Why would he be looking at the ground when his opponent was about five feet away (and in partial view in the video)? Is he expecting a hand of the "undead" to grab him from beneath the ground? :p
Late Edit: Added a screen capture of the left-handed sword technique for everyone to see.
Hi Dave,
Maybe I can answer a few questions for you.
1. Kacem is not left handed. In all our densho, everything is practiced right side and left side. Including weapons, for an overall balance of the body and mind. Plus, what are you gonna do if you have your right hand or arm chopped off? You still have to fight.
2. He is dropping to his knee to cut an un-armed opponent to clarify that the strike he was delivering (prior to what you see) is the same motion as a sword cut.
What I think is important to keep in mind here, is that we are losing the context of the movements because we are only seeing a split second of action (which was obviously edited for dramatic effect...it is only, after all a commercial). At his seminars, Kacem explains very thoroughly what he is doing. Especially because what he is demonstrating is usually over-simplified versions of the basics (to drive home important points in movement) along with a few things for "wow" factor. Simple? Yes. Easy? No. Different? Depends on where you are standing. Regardless of experience and "style" he always does his best to humbly and deeply answer anyone's questions or doubts, through academic discussion and physical demonstration. Stand up guy, all the way. After that, it's up to you to work on it and figure it out. Which, is no different than any other type of martial arts practice. In fact, he shares similar points of view on martial arts and the Bujinkan that all of you do. Let us also not forget, he would not have his credentials if he was a moron.
Jay, I remember 7 years back when Vladamir Vasiliev first came out with his Systema training videos. I watched them all and had many doubts and questions. Then I took my time and money to go to Toronto and train with him for a while. He was nothing short of brilliant! I believe this is a similar situation. Nobody's questions will be answered to satisfaction until they go to the source and find out "hands-on" for themselves. Anything else is just rubbish and a waste of energy for all.
I wish you all the best in your training.
As Kacem says in his charming french accent: "Keep the practice"
David Craik
09-05-2008, 17:31
Is he expecting a hand of the "undead" to grab him from beneath the ground?
Maybe the bunkai is that one has detected a ninja beneath the tatami, ready to ram a spear into his anus a la Oda Nobunaga.
Hi Mr. Osmun,
1.) There is no precendent for this. If you had an arm chopped off you wouldn't be able to grasp the sword in both hands as Mr. Zoughari is doing anyway. The feel and motion of a sword held held in both hands is way different than in one hand of either side. Much like while firing a handgun in a Weaver stance makes a lot of sense today, it wasn't done in the distant past. Siege engines would also have made a lot of sense against some jo (castles, not the stick) in Japan, yet they were never made. Swords simply weren't worn or used this way, and as a sword is a historical weapon it should be pursued in a historical context. It's like wearing a Spartan helmet backwards because you can see better that way.
2) Fair enough, though why it would be neccesary to show an unarmed strike as similar to a sword cut is a bit odd to me. Why not just demonstrate the strike, or show how it is the same as a shotgun blast to the kneecap with a Mossberg 500?
Rob,
In the left still, Kacem had just demonstrated a specific Iai from a specific school. The uke simply got out of the way, after the fact, and Kacem ducked his head to make room for the sword coming over. It was playtime after training and he was showing a couple things. Not a serious instructional situation.
In the right still, he is looking at the class and talking.
Webmaster
09-05-2008, 17:36
Hi Dave,
Maybe I can answer a few questions for you.
1. Kacem is not left handed. In all our densho, everything is practiced right side and left side. Including weapons, for an overall balance of the body and mind. Plus, what are you gonna do if you have your right hand or arm chopped off? You still have to fight.
2. He is dropping to his knee to cut an un-armed opponent to clarify that the strike he was delivering (prior to what you see) is the same motion as a sword cut.
What I think is important to keep in mind here, is that we are losing the context of the movements because we are only seeing a split second of action (which was obviously edited for dramatic effect...it is only, after all a commercial). At his seminars, Kacem explains very thoroughly what he is doing. Especially because what he is demonstrating is usually over-simplified versions of the basics (to drive home important points in movement) along with a few things for "wow" factor. Simple? Yes. Easy? No. Different? Depends on where you are standing. Regardless of experience and "style" he always does his best to humbly and deeply answer anyone's questions or doubts, through academic discussion and physical demonstration. Stand up guy, all the way. After that, it's up to you to work on it and figure it out. Which, is no different than any other type of martial arts practice. In fact, he shares similar points of view on martial arts and the Bujinkan that all of you do. Let us also not forget, he would not have his credentials if he was a moron.
Jay, I remember 7 years back when Vladamir Vasiliev first came out with his Systema training videos. I watched them all and had many doubts and questions. Then I took my time and money to go to Toronto and train with him for a while. He was nothing short of brilliant! I believe this is a similar situation. Nobody's questions will be answered to satisfaction until they go to the source and find out "hands-on" for themselves. Anything else is just rubbish and a waste of energy for all.
I wish you all the best in your training.
As Kacem says in his charming french accent: "Keep the practice"
Gee, I wish that Josh would have responded in his reply to my initial post as you have above, rather than in defensive nastiness. It might have avoided the two-pages of this thread.
Thank you for your excellent first post and welcome.
Quick kwestion:
Since when does Takagi ryu have a kusari used in it? Better yet, which branch is this from?
-R
Mekugi,
I'm not sure if the weapons are related to TYR or not. Nor am I sure if he will be teaching these weapons from respective schools, or with the taijutsu of TYR. I think he is teaching them in addition to Takagi Yoshin Ryu.
Hi Dave,
1.) There is no precendent for this. If you had an arm chopped off you wouldn't be able to grasp the sword in both hands as Mr. Zoughari is doing anyway. The feel and motion of a sword held held in both hands is way different than in one hand of either side. Much like while firing a handgun in a Weaver stance makes a lot of sense today, it wasn't done in the distant past. Siege engines would also have made a lot of sense against some jo (castles, not the stick) in Japan, yet they were never made. Swords simply weren't worn or used this way, and as a sword is a historical weapon it should be pursued in a historical context. It's like wearing a Spartan helmet backwards because you can see better that way.
MY ANSWER: All I am doing is relaying the reasons as they were explained to me. I too, along with many others, have heard the same reasoning as you have just explained. Having heard both sides of this theory from various sources, plus the fact that none of us were alive back then to be really sure of it today, I consider it an arbitrary matter. Plus it's not going to hurt anyone to be ambidextrous. Personally, when it comes down to my life being on the line, I'm not going to care which one of my hands is killing the guy who's trying to wipe me out. Long swords were also used one handed, even though Kacem wasn't demonstrating it one handed in that particular clip. I'm sure you also know that using a Daito and Shoto together isn't uncommon (which would put a sword, albeit a short one, in the left hand). Heck, Musashi made it famous. I'm sorry I can't give you a more sufficient answer, because I am not a historian and my knowledge is limited. However if you wish, please ask Kacem the reasons behind this. He is a member of both the Nihon Budo Gakkai in Japan, and INALCO (the National Institute of Oriental Language and Civilization) in France. He is more qualified than I.
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2) Fair enough, though why it would be neccesary to show an unarmed strike as similar to a sword cut is a bit odd to me. Why not just demonstrate the strike, or show how it is the same as a shotgun blast to the kneecap with a Mossberg 500?
MY ANSWER: It is necessary because whether you are holding a weapon or not, the taijutsu is the same. Kacem, along with Hatsumi Sensei, often demonstrate this fact repeatedly to help the students get a clear point of view to what is happening in the movement. This helps fuse the mind and allows quicker advancement in both weapons and unarmed training to show their relationship, instead of believing that techniques with a weapon are different than unarmed techniques. Again, I'm sorry if my answers are not sufficient. Please ask Kacem or Hatsumi Sensei for further details and explanation.
David Craik
09-05-2008, 18:45
Marc, I appreciate your earnest and polite answers. I am not trying to be combative. With regard to #1, I don't really care enough to argue the point with multiple people. They can train however they like and if they find value in their studies good for them. But it is not correct. The sword is an antiquated weapon and if studied should be studied as it was in antiquity - by men who actually used it in battle - in order to be authentic, though I realize there are folks far more knowledgeable than I who do not agree with my point of view. Ni-to is an entirely different structure from using a two-handed tenouchi backwards and FWIW forms only the minority of waza in the Hyoho Niten Ichiryu of Musashi. It would be great to put a laser sight on a musket as well, but this is not authentic.
If the sword is being used as a tool to train ambidextrousness (is there such a word? :)) and other principles as in Aikido then that's great. But it is not kenjutsu.
WRT #2, fair enough. You have answered the question and I was not there to see what was demonstrated. So I accede.
I wish you all the best in your training.
David Craik:
The sword is an antiquated weapon and if studied should be studied as it was in antiquity - by men who actually used it in battle
MY ANSWER: I couldn't agree with you more!
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David Craik:
If the sword is being used as a tool to train ambidextrousness (is there such a word? ) and other principles as in Aikido then that's great. But it is not kenjutsu.
MY ANSWER: Again, it's not just the sword, but all weapons (and unarmed movements) we are told to practice left and right sides. Is it not kenjutsu because of this?...I don't know.
But thank you for your information. I find your point of view valid and interesting. I also wish you all the best in your training. Take care :)
STORMCROW34
09-05-2008, 19:46
In Yoseikan Budo we train in Minoru Mochizuki's interpretation of TSKSR. Master Mochizuki was a high ranking student in that art and actually was a friend and contemporary of Sugino Sensei. I'm not trying to get involved by taking sides, but I just wanted to point out that we practice suburi left and right handed to train for a balanced body. Kata on the other hand, as far as I know, is always right handed.
Just an FYI...
There is one kata I have seen in Shinkage Ryu that switches hand grip so the left is in front and the right is in back. It's a trick, part of an "application" to one technique and it is not the normal way one would grasp the handle of a sword. However, I am uncertain that is what is being demonstrated in the video...simply because I don't recognize this as the aforementioned Shinkage ryu kata.
David Craik
09-06-2008, 09:34
Do you know the name of this kata Russ? I think YSR has kurai known as shiteki sei where the left hand is forward, though I cannot find a kata where this is used (though surely it exists). So I retract my statement that it is never done, however my point remains unchanged. I'm fairly certain that what is being done is not a YSR kata, and within the centuries of koryu development one can find exceptions to nearly any rule. I'd have to do some serious digging, but I seem to recall a kata in one ryu where uchidachi throws his sword at shidachi..definately odd. But it is highly unusual to wear or use a sword in this way. Are there any kata that would start with the saya on the right side? I don't know of any. Walking the streets of Edo in such a way would likely get one a lot of attention, like walking across Ft. Bragg with one's BDU cap on backwards.
But, whatever floats their boat. If that's the way they train then that's the way they train.
Do you know the name of this kata Russ?
Nope. I can ask though. Hold tight (if I remember to do it).
I think YSR has kurai known as shiteki sei where the left hand is forward, though I cannot find a kata where this is used (though surely it exists). So I retract my statement that it is never done, however my point remains unchanged.I'm fairly certain that what is being done is not a YSR kata, and within the centuries of koryu development one can find exceptions to nearly any rule.
Totally. I agree. I just thought it was interesting, and Shinkage ryu is mentioned in the original post...but then again, I don't recognize what he is doing as the same kata.
I'd have to do some serious digging, but I seem to recall a kata in one ryu where uchidachi throws his sword at shidachi..definately odd.
Kukishin Ryu is one I know of....there are a couple others if memory serves....and it doesn't, as I have forgotten the names outright. Yesh.
But it is highly unusual to wear or use a sword in this way. Are there any kata that would start with the saya on the right side?
I don't know of any. Walking the streets of Edo in such a way would likely get one a lot of attention, like walking across Ft. Bragg with one's BDU cap on backwards.
I believe there was one style where the guy did that, it originated around the 17th century. The guy tested it out and was killed immediately, so it is dead now. This was only after being laughed at while having hot miso soup poured on his head; whereas children would run up and stick nori to his face (the dreaded Soup and Nori'ing). ;) I believe the style was called "please-stop-stabbing-me-in-the-liver" Ryu. Apparently he was the cousin to the guy who thought making nunchaku out of swords (Sword-chucks) would be a technical advantage. This was called "No-fingers-Bloody-Palms" ryu This style, for obvious reasons, died out shortly after the ryuso bled to death.
But, whatever floats their boat. If that's the way they train then that's the way they train.
According to Monty Python....woods floats. Ducks float. That means either wood is made out of ducks or ducks are made out of wood. Personally, I have yet to hear a tree quack or see a deck made out of ducks. :)
Gunyo Kogusoku
09-06-2008, 10:26
Do you know the name of this kata Russ?
I'm not Russ, but I do know; Muniken and Ransetsu from the Nanatsu-tachi set. They're aimed at the enemy's thumbs/tendons of the wrists.
David Craik
09-06-2008, 10:33
Nope. I can ask though. Hold tight (if I remember to do it).
I hope you remember, I am genuinely interested. Tadashige Watanabe has made reference to 'left-handed' techniques but I can't find any. I guess one of the pitfalls of an etic perspective.
Kukishin Ryu is one I know of....there are a couple others if memory serves....and it doesn't, as I have forgotten the names outright. Yesh.
I was thinking Maniwa-Nen Ryu or Negishi-Ryu, but my memory is horrible too. It was a long time ago when I came across this....
David Craik
09-06-2008, 10:52
I'm not Russ, but I do know; Muniken and Ransetsu from the Nanatsu-tachi set. They're aimed at the enemy's thumbs/tendons of the wrists.
Thanks Steve. YSR does seem to have a propensity for cutting the wrists. :D
Ah, the problems of being an outsider; I have nothing on a Nanatsu-tachi set, though there is apparently a Tensetsu-ransetsu and Muni-ken in a set called Okugi-no-tachi?
To the point, does anything shown in the video resemble either of these kata, since Yagyu Nobuharu is mentioned in the initial post? Do these kata start with the sword on the right hip for some reason?
Thanks Steve. YSR does seem to have a propensity for cutting the wrists. :D
Ah, the problems of being an outsider; I have nothing on a Nanatsu-tachi set, though there is apparently a Tensetsu-ransetsu and Muni-ken in a set called Okugi-no-tachi?
To the point, does anything shown in the video resemble either of these kata, since Yagyu Nobuharu is mentioned in the initial post? Do these kata start with the sword on the right hip for some reason?
Steve's probably right. I haven't heard or seen the name(s), just watched one. The saya is never worn on the right, though. I suspect it may be in the Shinkage Ryu video the Shunpukan released. I have only seen parts of that, I never have the time to finish it. If you want one.....I have four sitting in my bookshelf.....
Anyway, no I don't recognize anything in the clip from Shinkage Ryu...or at least, none that I have seen.
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