View Full Version : 2 on 1 sparring
I've never sparred with 2 other people, I was wondering if anyone else had and impressions they got from it, what kinds of rules did you use. It'd be interesting to try it with some sort of MMA rules, see how that 'BJJ is no good for multiple attackers' idea holds out. I was thinking about it and if you had some sort of points, and a round robin system then you could make a competition out of it. A and B fight C, then B and C fight A, then A and C fight B.
Sean Reilly
11-18-2002, 06:39
Skye
A lot of Hapkido & Ju Jutsu schools train in techniques for multiple attackers but I really don't know if they actually sparr.
Cheers
Sean
John Bennett
11-18-2002, 08:34
You can't spar 2-on-1 because it's impossible.
The only training you need for 2-on-1 is "distract / sucker punch / run like hell". That doesn't require any more finesse or technique than heavy bag work.
Anything more fancy than that is gonna get you tackled or stabbed in the kidney.
I've seen the fancy chop-sockey Steven Segal 2-on-1 routines some styles teach. They might work on a movie set, but in real life against anyone with a pulse, they are simply self-deluded bullshyte.
Jeff Burger
11-18-2002, 09:40
We do some training for multiple opponents.
That mostly consist of trying to get them 1 at a time.
Aligning yourself up workwork wise or backing up into a door way.
Once its just a smash brawl on you. You had better be able to hit hard and take some shots.
Lefthook mentioned he has his students do this FULL CONTACT.
Something we do for warm up and play.
Everybody on 1...and worse everybody can hit but not grab, the 1 can only get out of the way and do throws.
Its great fun and exercise with kids and teens.
Lining them up flinging them into one another...definatley looks like bad Segal movie.
Running away to win.
This is actually a taught strategy.
A Chinese method is to run away. You are now fighting them 1 on 1 according to their fitness level. when your down to 1 pursuer fight...repeat until victory...ooh and good luck.
Jeff
williamson
11-18-2002, 10:00
You should train for multiple opponents before single opponents. If you can handle a number of attackers at once, then one on one becomes easier (not to say you still can't lose).
Different ways of training multiple attackers: 2 on 1, 3 on 1, etc., 2 on 2, 3 on 2, etc., free for all (everybody on everybody). Obliviously there are many ways to do this.
Fighting is not about how much you can dish out, it's about how much you can take. Training with multiple attackers delivers just that.
Impossible eh? now I REALLY want to try it.
The problem I have with running away is chances are at least one of them are going to be able to easily outrun you. Then your just going to be dragged down from behind.
I don't really think it's much different from sparring with someone alot better than you, you're never going to really beat them but you learn something.
RA Miller
11-19-2002, 01:47
We do it frequently.
Most commonly we use a two or three on one starting from the "interview". The lone fighter is not to attack until he could legally justify it.
Everyone needs a pretty good grounding, a decent skill level if no armor is used. At higher levels of skill, the students can forgo armor and still keep injuries down.
One of the great pleasures in this job is playing the bad guy for a cell extraction- enclosed space, lots of concrete obstacles and six to eight opponents in full armor who are big, tough and skilled. You can actually go around 80%!!!!
Well in TSD to get your black belt. You have to do 12 kata, two hours of kicks and punches 25 one steps, 25 self defense, 10 cane, 10 knife, a number of breaking techniques. Then a 1 on 1 with the instructor who is a serious full contact fighter for 7 min. A 2 on 1 for five min. A 3 on 1 for 3 min. and by the time you get to that 3 on 1 you better be fighting you but off. If you fall down you will get stomped until you get back up.
There is a method to fighting more than one opponet. You have to keep them falling over each other which requires endurance as well as foot work.
Our school has only produced 8 black belts in 30 years!
Ican'tfeelmylegs
01-09-2003, 00:58
Originally posted by John Bennett
You can't spar 2-on-1 because it's impossible.
The only training you need for 2-on-1 is "distract / sucker punch / run like hell". That doesn't require any more finesse or technique than heavy bag work.
Anything more fancy than that is gonna get you tackled or stabbed in the kidney.
I've seen the fancy chop-sockey Steven Segal 2-on-1 routines some styles teach. They might work on a movie set, but in real life against anyone with a pulse, they are simply self-deluded bullshyte.
no offence wise one, but I've seen people take on more then 2 people and walk away from it.
What makes you say that it's impossible
In the studio i attend, we have multiple attacker FC sparring bouts quite regularly. We mix up the attacker mix quite a bit doing things like 2vs1, 3vs1, and 4vs1, as well as 2vs2, 3vs2, 4/6vs2. And a whole range of other combinations. Sometimes one of the attackers will be given a weapon such as a stick or knife. The more attackers throwen into the mix, the easier it gets because they start blocking eachother off and you always have a body regularly available to throw into another attacker and so on. However the more and more you practice this the more in tuned the attackers get and it becomes compoundedly difficult when two attackers are working together.
I actually learned about defending myself against multiple attackers growing up here in SF. I don't think I have ever been in a fight here with less then 2 people. Why? because the friends always want to help. I have disscussed a few things before about fighting on the street with multiple attackers, but the basis of it is how far are you willing to take it. If the group mentality has cruel intent there is a good chance you can be beaten to death, so take out all the stops and go to seriously hurt, maim or kill your opponents. if the group is a merciful one that will stop once you have been beaten, then don't go for the above options because if you do you can change the mentality of the group to where they will now try to beat you to death.
On the other hand I remember getting out of a situation by seriously hurting one of my attackers. The friends momentarily went to the aid of their friend allowing me the time to get the heck out of there. Like i said it all depends, but my advice is learn to fight with your good friends that you go out regularly with, because if you can fight together you will be able to fend off crowds of attackers with your little army of friends.
-John Stenson
De_Franza
08-05-2003, 06:41
IN the previous school I trained in, they'd do it a lot with the brown belts. Far from impossible, but it gets ugly. I mean downright fugly. but that's what real fights are like too, so that's good.
Often people start to expound on stratagies that involve dropping one attacker in the way of the other so you can pop the second one or flee.
I think it's good practice as in a mugging or whatnot, you're not likely to be in a 1 on 1 situation.
2 on 1 definatly possible.
We do it all the time.
2, 3, 4, 5, 6 opponents at once (it actually gets easier after 6 or so people... they start accedentally kicking and pnching each other)
Russians used to do "wall fights" where up to 10,000 people at once would face off with each other and fight until last-man-standing.
And that was for "sport"
Jeff Burger
08-05-2003, 19:59
"Russians used to do "wall fights" where up to 10,000 people at once would face off with each other and fight until last-man-standing
Damn Id like to see some video of that.
Saw a clip of a several hundred kendo players going at it.
Jeff
We do some "shark sparring" at my school.....mainly only 2-on-1. Like everyone else has said, the key is getting them to where only 1 can attack at a time. Make them block each other.
One of the funniest things i've done was two people in the middle, and a circle around them. The people on the outside could interfere if they could touch the people in the middle. One time during this, I pulled a girl's ponytail when she came near me. At the same time her opponent, who was our instructor was throwing a kick to her head. He thought he actually kicked her and knocked her head back.
Anyway, it's definetly not impossible. It's sometimes easier if the two people you're against can't seem to get coordinated and help each other out. The idea as said before is to make one block the other. I was told try to line them up and fight one at a time.
Originally posted by Jeff Burger
"Russians used to do "wall fights" where up to 10,000 people at once would face off with each other and fight until last-man-standing
Damn Id like to see some video of that.
Saw a clip of a several hundred kendo players going at it.
Jeff
Imagine Red Square filled from one side to the other with men and boys all there to test their skill and show off for friends and onlookers.
This is a translation of a crowd fight account from Sigmund Haberstein, Ambasador to Emperor Maximillian.
"As youth as teenagers, usually gather at holidays in the town on well-known place, many people can see and listen them. They are invited to come by the whistle, it is conventional signal. When they hear a whistle, they immediatly run to this place and begin fisticuffs: firstly they use fists only, but later begin to hit by hands and legs with great fury to any place - face, throat, abdomen and groin. They try to win by any methods, very often they are transported without signs of life. Every man, who can beat more people, remains on the battlefield more time and is able to bear more strikes, is considered as bravo man. Such competitions are used for teaching youths to bear the pain." Kicks to the chest, and even to the face, are not high. We can understand that such kicks were used against failed opponent: there are no any rules.
At police order of 1726 there were words, which became an idiom: "don't allow to beat the lain man". Most fighters considered this order as infringement of their rights, and only many years later this rule began to observe ... from time to time. "Wall fighters" very often used knife, flail or short club. Of course, it was infringement of fisticuffs ethics, but - usual infringement. Opponent had chance only if he had similar weapon. There was no possibility for barehand resisting. Even "insets" - hidden inside mitten or fist weight like copper coins, lead bullets or iron pivots - were enough for big advantage. Dal' in his "Explanatory dictionary" described examples of using flails in "wall vs wall" fights, and wrote that "it is impossible to resist such a man in fisticuffs". Two conclusions are possible. At Dal's time (or not long time before) "wall vs wall" fights used not only fists. Flail is good weapon, but there exist many countermethods against flail - more than against knife. And if "it is impossible to resist" - hence there weren't methods of counter-weapon defence. There exist sole fightings besides "wall formation", but they are more typical for wrestling, not for fist-fighting.
Representatives of all estates participate in such fights, low estates usually don't give in more noble ones.
There were no rules... and even competeing nobility had no advantage in the melee.
Ive seen a few videos of small fights... 20 on 20 or so... brutal.
silverhand
08-06-2003, 00:52
We do 2 on 1 sometimes.
Mostly blackbelts.
The lone fighter can pretty much do anything and everything but leg kicks, groin and throat strikes and punching to the head. But his main object is to make the 2 attackers come at him one on one.
There is quite a bit of "grab attacker one and throw him into attacker 2" but you usually have to say, " hey, you can do that."
Knocking one into the other is a very viable solution... deflected punches or kicks can do serious damage to both people if done right.
Also, try this, when sparring two on one... put one person on the ground between you and the second attacker... watch your second opponents reaction. Study it. You will find alot of very interesting patterns of human psychology and the ways people behave when a friend has been put down in front of them.
Jeff Burger
08-06-2003, 06:42
Sometimes we will put a mutiples of low rank against 1 higher rank.
The higher rank can wear protective gear if they want. The low ranks can hit (punch, kick...whatever).
The higher rank can not hit just footwork and throws.
Lining them up, sending them into each other, dropping them down in front of you to be a barrier...its all good fun practice.
Depending on the difference in rank and age we may allow the higher rank to strike.
Though we try to keep blind shots controlled.
I hate teenage student (first week in our school) hide during that game and when I had my back turned jumped up and kicked me in the back of the head.
The no hit game can even be done an adult vs kids. This can be a good workout and fun.
Jeff
fightgrrl
08-06-2003, 13:02
Jeff will routinely do that one as a warm up...you have to see him fend off 15 little kids with only soft throws and footwork to appreciate the workout, you can also see the herd mentality in action, they generally will attack one at a time...and just as mentioned earlier, using the opponent as an obstacle really messes up the others. I really need to shoot a video...its hilarious!
black-gi
08-11-2003, 13:27
two on one SPARRING! is possible to practise but fact is is it's not fighting and I understand where Mr. Bennett ( sorry if spelled wrong) is coming from, we did it a bit and I think its good for learning the situation. From what I was taught go after one and take them out as fast as possible so you arn't throwing 50-60 punches per second trying to hit everyone at once. Anyway, my opnion.
Jason Bryant
two on one SPARRING! is possible to practise but fact is is it's not fighting
I disagree... while its not "fighting" it is training for that possibility... and I assure you, 2 on 1 combat CAN be done, HAS been done, and WILL continue to be done as long as people are not willing to just accept that "it cant be done".
Mass attacks are common, and they are survivable.
Check out Vladimir Vasilievs video on Mass Attacks.
black-gi
08-12-2003, 09:33
I'm not saying it can't be done but if you treated it as a fighting situation someone would get seriously hurt, you can train for it and the situation and spar in that situation but its not a 2 on1 fight, totally different situation
Jason Bryant
Ummm... Ok.
Your right.:rolleyes: Training for it is completly different than actually doing it because doing it would require you actually care about not dying, as opposed to siting in your well padded training hall talking about how effective it all is.
Of course if you HAD done it for real..............
Im not just speaking from training experience here. Im telling you point blank, it can be done. Ive seen it done, Ive done it myself.
There, Ive gone and done it... the great taboo of talking about the actual use of technique on a real living breathing person... Im tired of always having to beat around the bush lest I (or anyone else) be labled a "Virtual Tough Guy" (thanks SharpPhil) for actually saying that they have put to use something they have learned.
black-gi
08-16-2003, 12:56
I never said it can't be done! all I was saying is it's not the same! so instead of going on about the padded dojo and stuff and blowing things out of proprtion we... not just you should give it up because its obvious this will not end
Jason Bryant
No, what you said was that it was different, and Ive agreed with you twice on that matter. Its not the same, and the difference is that when its real, your under cimcumstances that you probably didnt pick, you probably dont want, and that if you dont do what needs done, your probably going to get really hurt, if not killed... maybe someone you love too. Its put up, or shut up time, and no amount of philosophical pontification will help.
My point is, from the beginning, is that 2 on one sparring is possible, is useful, and results in skills that can and have been used to keep people safe, in a real encounter.
As for blowing things out of proportion, youll note the little tags... thats an indication that whats between them is a RANT, and not only is it a rant, its ment to be seen as one. :D
ninjandrew
08-21-2003, 16:33
Me and a couple of my friends used to 2on1 spar. For some reason it was always them vs. me, which was fine, extra practice. But Id have to say 2on1 is awesome training, after a about 8 hours of sparring (over the course of a week or two) I started kicking there ass' left right and centre, it was great. No, style needed, just formless form. But its definatley recommended.
mymerrytale
06-27-2004, 10:19
we used to do this on the beach with some buddies. one practiced wing chun and another hailed from the kadachnikov system. i was initially taken at unawares, as was the wing chun guy, but the guy who was practicing kadachnikov actually had some sound strategies that us laymen began to adapt. he had a hell of a manner of getting us to get into each other's way. according to him, this is the only way (short of running) to take on more than one person; make the additional number a liability.
--roman palitsky
we do 2 on 1 sparring a lot, and you usally begin this when you are a blue belt. but like other people said, its more blocking, moving out of the way, and foot-work, then actually fighting like in 1 on 1 sparring. My instructor usually tells us to try to keep the two opponets in a line, so that they are more like one person than two - we are told to constantly keep moving, and do not go though the middle of the two opponents. Also to never try to fight two people at once, and always keep your eyes on both people! 2 on 1 sparring is also a requirement to get a black belt at our school.
One time, a couple of years ago our insturctor had this idea to make all the red belts spar each other - at the same time. It ended up being 6 on 1. While it was basically just trying to dodge everyone - there was this one point where this kid, we'll call him dan, was the single and he was really struggeling, and we all ended up causing him to back up into a wall. He then proceeded to actually sit in the wall and make a huge hole in it. It was the funniest thing ever!!! Today there is still a small dent there as a reminder to the red-belt 6 on 1 sparring!!
I have heard of a thing of tournament style sparring except it's everyone for themself and once you're hit once you're out. The last person in wins.....I've done 2 on one and 3 on one.
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