View Full Version : Why hold people on their back?
I can understand there can be reasons given for pins being awarded points in judo competition. I don't know the historical reasoning but you can say it demonstrates control.
But why pin people on their back? Whats the advantage over the sides or front?
Holding someone face-down seems to have the advantage that it makes it harder for them to fight back. The sides don't seem very different from the back really. Taking pins as being a valid means of demonstrating fighting ability in competition is there any reason to NOT include pins that just hold someone down and relatively still for a certain time?
Also, wrestling has the same fascination with holding people down on their backs, is there a reason for this too?
John Bennett
11-25-2002, 06:30
You can pin a person on their back in such a fashion so as to make them immobilized and helpless.
Not so when pinning a person on their front. It's virtually impossible. Face down they can always use something to create movement and leverage.
Put them on their back and a skilled person can immobilize and crush them much easier.
I was told by a very senior black belt the reason Judo pins players on their back goes back to the Samurai days. The main weapon was the sword and you only went to hand-to-hand (Jiu Jitsu) as a last resort. Remember they wore some prstty impressive looking but cumbersome (for ground fighting) armour. So to knock down another swordless samuri and get him locked up would not be a pretty task. And your goal was to pin the guy you were fighting with so that one of your buddies could come by with his sword and finish them off. Of course sitting there in kesa gatami , I imagine you'ld be a good target for the buddies of the guy you are pinning. ;)
I guess I'll take your word that it's virtually impossible John. I would like to try it though. Anyone tried doing it? Like reverse judo, try and throw them on their front and pin them on their front. Could be fun.
SevenStar
11-26-2002, 02:30
pretty much what John said. There's really no point to pinning on the front though, because if they are turtled really well, you really can't do anything to them except hold them there. And, it's possible for them to get up. On you back, it's MUCH harder for them to get up, and you have more options as far as submissons go.
The thing about grappling is that it's very subtle. I only need an inch of space (literally) to counter you. when you are on your stomach, it's easy for you to make the space you need to escape.
There's really no point to pinning on the front though, because if they are turtled really well, you really can't do anything to them except hold them there
Well I haven't seen much MMA but from what I have seen there seems to be alot you can do:( Aside from that I think the point of pinning in judo is to pin, so as long your pinning then your getting the job done.
Impossible? Thats sounds like a challenge to me:D I think it's only impossible because nobody has developed the techniques. I think some of the techniques usedto turn people over in both judo and wrestling could be used to pin them.
RA Miller
11-27-2002, 04:09
Skye-
Like almost all LEO's, we work to get the guy face down. He is much easier to control and the fight is over sooner and safer. In battlefield styles, you don't roll around on the ground to establish dominance by certain rules.
The turtle, for instance, is a purely sport artifact. It only has use when you are dealing with a threat who will not use a weapon, a kick or get friends... in other words only in a dojo or tournament setting.
A proned-out threat can be killed or crippled (in a battlefield context, ergo the 'martial' in 'martial art') very quickly and safely. On their back, they can draw and deploy a weapon.
Rory
Sean Reilly
11-27-2002, 06:37
In BJJ (based originally on Judo/Jiu Jutsu techniques) if someone is in the 'turtle position' (face down knees under themselves) we just grab the back of their Gi collar and with our own body weight reaf them on their back.
If they are face down on their knees, we just jump on, hook our feet inside their thighs reach under them from one side grab their wrist and flatten them out.
Cheers
Sean
I agree that pinning someone on their stomach is exceptionally hard (not impossible, but generally not worth the effort). I especially agree with John that a person can always use something for leverage.
I will use two examples. The first are the feet. On your back, it's your heels that you have to try to use for leverage (unless your really flexible, in which case you disgust me:D ). On your stomach, you would be able to use your toes, and get much more power, and get to your knees. Once on your knees, it becomes easier to get to one foot, then two (still not easy, note the use of the word easier).
My second example are the hands and arms. On your back, you get some akward positioning with your palms, and a decent range of motion/leverage with your elbows. If you're on your stomach, you can try to do a push-up, get to your elbows (step to getting a full arm up, etc...), or roll one way or another. And these are just the ideas that are coming off the top of my head.
In summary, it's much much easier to control a person kept on their back.
Rory is right. For combative purposes, it is essential to put the enemy on his face to either (a) put restraint devices on him, or (b) kill him. Those are your ONLY two options.
Sport is a different animal altogether. But when I teach sport techniques, I still tell my students to NEVER give their back to their opponent. And I award points for a control, no matter what the relative position of the opponents.
Many jujitsu throws are designed to drop the opponent on his face to facilitate (a) and (b) above, in addition to causing a lot more damage to the opponent's body during impact with the ground.
Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu
RA Miller
11-30-2002, 01:38
Jeff-
I've missed you. Where ya been?
Bad Karma
11-30-2002, 02:32
I'm in agreement w/Rory and Jeffro. Someone on their stomach is much more vulnerable than on their back. Pinning someone on their back is a show...or sign...of dominance.
Why? They have full use of their "weapons," as do you, and they still can't get away. Man to Man and Face to Face.
Throws with the person landing on their head, face, shoulder, or whatever will result in your coming to know why the sport...and art...of Judo dictates they land on their back. Hopefully you'll get the picture before you run out of training partner's and any legal issues arise. ;)
Peace
Rory, I've missed you too! Now, this doesn't mean that we are gonna swap spit in the shower....;-)
Been real busy. Things at work are heating up. Might be taking an extended trip with the unit soon.
Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu
SevenStar
12-02-2002, 21:00
Originally posted by Skye
Well I haven't seen much MMA but from what I have seen there seems to be alot you can do:( Aside from that I think the point of pinning in judo is to pin, so as long your pinning then your getting the job done.
Impossible? Thats sounds like a challenge to me:D I think it's only impossible because nobody has developed the techniques. I think some of the techniques usedto turn people over in both judo and wrestling could be used to pin them.
Of course you can do strikes from there, but I'm speaking from a purely grappling standpoint, since this is the judo forum. With the neck and arms tucked, you can't choke or arm bar. Plus with his arms in tight and his toes free, he may be able to explode up and manuever away from you. On your back, movement is alot harder.
SevenStar
12-02-2002, 21:08
Originally posted by Bad Karma
I'm in agreement w/Rory and Jeffro. Someone on their stomach is much more vulnerable than on their back. Pinning someone on their back is a show...or sign...of dominance.
Why? They have full use of their "weapons," as do you, and they still can't get away. Man to Man and Face to Face.
I don't agree. When you have someone in a good pin, they are immobilized. They will not be able to punch, elbow, kick, knee, headbutt or bite they manage to get some space so they can free themselves.
Same thing from a back mount. You can't punch kick, knee, elbow or head butt me while I'm on your back. BUT you have more freedom of movement, so it's easier for you to get to a position where you can use those things on me. It's not a machisimo thing at all.
An example of machisimo is if you are they type who would prefer to win by a pin than a lock, just beacuse it's harder to maintain that position of dominance for 30 seconds than it is to make someone submit in 4or 5 seconds.
SevenStar
12-02-2002, 21:11
Originally posted by Sean Reilly
If they are face down on their knees, we just jump on, hook our feet inside their thighs reach under them from one side grab their wrist and flatten them out.
If they have sufficient space between their legs, I will shoot one leg through and go for a leg triangle (calf crush) I've had pretty good success with it in class. I intend on trying it in competition too.
Well I thought atemi was part of judo...
I agree in sport judo you don't throw strikes when you have someone down. But then you don't expect your mate to come along with a katana and finish the pinned guy off. Or you don't try and put handcuffs on them. And calf crushes are bound to be illegal.
But this is all getting back to my original question...WHY hold them on their back? I figured there was a reason that came from judo's martial origin, not that it was just an arbitrary sports rule.
Sure it might be easier to hold them on their back but is that the reason to not reward pins on the sides or front? Even if, against the odds, you manage to hold someone down for 30 seconds on their face you don't get any points at all (as far as I know).
Theres not much you can do from a good pin on either your front back or side. I just don't see any reason why the back is the only one that is awarded points.
SevenStar
12-03-2002, 02:41
atemi is part of judo, as are leg and spine locks, but you can't use them in competition.
you would probably not hold someone face down for 30 secs, as referees will stand the competitors up if there is no progress being made on the ground - that is part of the reason why people turtle up on the ground in the first place, I'm willing to bet.
I have no idea why they won't give you points if you do happen to get backmount and hold them there though.
wrestling only counts a pin where the person is held on there back also, as does bjj, however, you do get points in bjj if you can get backmount with your hooks sunk in.
Actually, I've come to realize a reason to hold a person on their back, beyond what I've said earlier, at least in judo. In judo, when you throw someone with a majority of the throws, they land on their back, so it makes sense to keep them there and pin them, rather than try to put them on their front (which, I still say is a far more advantageous position for the person being pinned).
In fairness, I have to admit I've only been in judo two years at best, so I only know maybe 20 of the 60+ throws, so there may be ones that throw a person on the side or front, and their may be modified throws that accomplish the same thing. But from everything I've seen, the throws put them on their back, so it makes sense to keep them there. With a good sacrifice, your butt can be on the ground and pinned before you really know what happens.
Just another 2 cents I found.
RA Miller
12-04-2002, 01:56
Bringing biology into it-
When two puppies play fight for dominance, the goal is to get the other on his back and mouth the throat, but in the same species, when the dog goes in for the kill, it is almost always with a bite to the back of the neck, a spine shot.
Only one of the big cat species kills with a throat hold (I think it's the leopard... but this is dredging old memories) the rest either bite the spine or the skull. But the cubs playing dominance games, just like dogs, try to roll their rivals onto their backs and play-bite the throat.
Relevant?
Rory
Well theres another domiance position dogs have...but I won't go into it. This isn't a BJJ forum after all.
Taken from Osaekomi by K. Kashiwazaki
Judo's Differences
J. Kano created judo to be a sport, so there are many differences from the jj, which he himself studued and which was widely practiced in Japan at that time. In tachiwaza the kicks and punches were removed, and in newaza one of the biggest changes was that you held your opponent face up, on his back. In JJ, you always held your opponent face down so he couldn't attack you. In sport however you have to attack and defend at the same time, so you must always continue to face your opponent. ...
... In 1900 the first proper official rules were drawn up. This was that if in the referee's view the opponent was not escaping and that sufficeient time had passed, he could declare ippon. There was no time limit as such. In 1930 a 1 minute hold down time was decided upon.
This is an excerpt from the book much abbreviated.
Peace
Dennis
Thanks Dennis thats what I was looking for:)
Glad to help!
Peace
Dennis
It was interesting to hear everyones point of view. The fact that the reason is to enable people to keep fighting is interesting.
But I think that the plan backfired a bit. If you stay on your back and face them then after half a minute (or a minute as it was then) you automatically lose. Not much of an incentive for the person on the bottom to face them and fight it out. While the person on the top wants to keep it face to face, it takes two to tango.
Which makes my reverse judo all the more plausible:p
Bad Karma
12-05-2002, 23:32
Science rules! LOL! Wasn't trying to go there, but opted to suggest everything around it. Machizmo has purpose when likened to Alpha Male. Besides, I liked the Razor Ramon character.
Peace
johenora
10-22-2003, 02:14
The Judo throws in the curriculum of Kodokan sport Judo are in most instances to cause the opponent to land smack on his back. A few waza to cause the opponent to land on his head or side. The uchi mata is one,but can be done in a legal fashion and is a favorite of some tall dudes and gals.
It is considered if he lands smack on his back hard--he was killed.
The osae komi waza of back hold downs for a certain passage of time means you sent the opponent's soul straight to the hereafter and it did not linger on the ground after you cut the head off or sliced the throat with small Kodachi or Tanto.There was a special Kiai for this that is still employed in some schools of Daito Ryu. Two other Daito Ryu schools use a silent Kiai. The Kiai is "TO".This come from Shinto and can be found in some sword books on Japanese kenjutsu. Hard to fathom, but so be it.
With the oppnent on the side can be choked if you are above green belt or rules modified or arm barred or kansetsu and the opponent pats out.
there was a comment about how if you stayed on your back for a mintue and a half then you would lose the match. I've never actually studied judo except for a few rough throws, but I know that on the ground, in bjj, to give up your back is almost a cardinal sin unless you are just really good at reversals and excapes. I also wanted to comment. supposing real fight or sport strategy I would honestly rather have my opponent on their back for purposes of pinning or imobilizing. the reason being is that the majority of the target regions that could be used are right there in front of you. yet when you have your opponents back you are forced to reach and unless your are just awesome at certain submission or immobilizing tactics you can end up on a ride that leaves you in the guard or out of the dominance of the encounter. also a lot of people have reported that when punching someone in the back of the head your are very likely to break your fist. and that the front of the face (as opposed to the back of thehead) is a much better target. and then there's the alpha dog thing. there are also a lot of good techniques from the top that can convince, and I will use the term uke, to go to their stomachs, but trying to get uke to roll to their back also gives them, possibly, the little bit of momentum they need to spring to their feet and away from danger. just my take on it.
johenora
11-26-2003, 03:55
[QUOTE]Originally posted by roninja
[B]there was a comment about how if you stayed on your back for a mintue and a half then you would lose the match. I've never actually studied judo except for a few rough throws, but I know that on the ground, in bjj, to give up your back is almost a cardinal sin unless you are just really good at reversals and excapes. [QUOTE]
-------
Mr.Joseph Dunkin---
I most appreciate what you have said in your entire post which is veritably on point in all respects.
You, Sir, I see are from Oklahoma and in a flash I know you know grappling. Please do not get me wrong and I do not want to be argumentative. I agree with all your points.
You in the post have pointed out certain key factors that are super critical.
Also the post of Mr. Skye Clements-Grimshaw succinctly points out admirably the WAY to go and do it.This is the post I think you are alluding to. You both make a lot of sense.These concepts are good for both coaches and fighters.
There is a trend now in defensive Judo to give up the back and on all fours protect the neck after going to the ground because of slippery mats or another reason and I do not really know where it started. It may be due to moving the matches faster for the benefit of the public. I truly do NOT know. Maybe some one knows and can enlighten me on this.
Also giving less and less time for hold downs.
A fine Brazilian JuJutsuka pointed out that Judo has less options than BJJ under JJ tournament rules. In other words after reading what you have said and what the Brazilian JJ way is,then this confirms for me changes in my thinking and mind set unless with good supporting findings we are wrong or partially wrong.
The methods of (1)escapes,(2)reversals or (3) creating a void are sometimes precarious unless you are a superior grappler. Injury can then result in this counter fighting area as has happened after many years to a Sensei friend of mine. It can shorten a Judo/Jujutsu fighting career.
The target problems as to the head as you pointed out make a lot of good common sense.
Thank You kindly.
Gassho,
also a lot of people have reported that when punching someone in the back of the head your are very likely to break your fist. and that the front of the face (as opposed to the back of thehead) is a much better target.
Thats why experienced (street?)fighters use the palm of their hand opposed to the fist, to hit the back of the head. the victim is bound to get concussed and/or hit his face against the ground... which is also not the prettiest of all outcomes... So much for actual combat wise.
- Kuldar Nei
In judo tournaments today, fighters will "turtle" because they know the ref will stand both fighters up if tori does not gain an advantage within 5 to 10 seconds. My opinion- this takes away almost half of what grappling skills are about. 30 years ago you were given time to work your technique. If both went out of bounds, you were frozen then drug back to the center of the mat. Also back then it was either Ippon or Waza-Ari. No Yuko or Koka. Koka's would have been called Sloppy Judo. You can still do quality judo at the club level in randori, but trophy chasing and using the rules has resulted in a type of judo that is distinct from what judo originally was meant to be.
Peace
Dennis
Webmaster
07-05-2004, 18:33
I think that another thing to consider is what Kano Jigoro had to work with. Considering that Koryu Jujutsu did not have wrestling type ground fighting as we see in Judo newaza (it was more like you pinned him, mostly likely face down, with you still standing so you could draw a weapon and slice off his head), he had to get his pinning techniques from somewhere else. I have read in several Judo books over the years that the majority of Kano Sensei's newaza came from western wrestling. Since the pins in western wrestling are done with the opponent on their backs, this probably explains why Judo newaza does it this way.
You can pin a person on their back in such a fashion so as to make them immobilized and helpless.
Not so when pinning a person on their front. It's virtually impossible. Face down they can always use something to create movement and leverage.
Put them on their back and a skilled person can immobilize and crush them much easier.
I think John is correct.
Let me also add that judo is a sport and its rules, techniques, and victory conditions are for sport. Yes, it's got a lot of skills for real fighting and it inspired BJJ, this is true, and it's saved me before, but pinning someone is usually a sport-victory condition, and on the back exactly because of what John wrote.
Also, I should add, when I was a bouncer, I pinned most of my opponents, sometimes choked them from standing and then held them down until the police arrived. This assumed that I had a partner or two keeping the crowd off of me as going to the ground costs you almost all of your mobility.
Also, pinning the guy allows me to control the situation with as little injury to anyone as possible. If you find yourself in real danger you can always bang the guy's head against the cement a few times, but pinning is safer.
In hypothetical martial art scenarios there may only be you and the other guy, but in the real world there is always the D. A. to deal with....
Unfortunately this is one of the few times I have to disagree with John. I hope you can forgive me, bro! ;)
It is not "virtually impossible" to pin someone on their front. Japanese jujitsu and aiki systems offer a number of solutions. Also, as a bouncer (God I hate that term) I have pinned plenty of people on their faces and held them there indefinitely, and I was able to disengage in a split second if a threat approached.
Most of the methods use the arms and legs as levers to keep the person in place, both with skeletal locking and/or pain compliance. BJJ of course has the rear mount, which has its disadvantages for non-sport applications.
When you successfully pin someone on their face using the techniques I alluded to, the person is completely helpless and totally unable to bite, hit, or defend against punches. If they have a weapon in their pocket, it is extremely difficult for them to get it out and employ it. Conversely, someone pinned on their back has the ability to use their teeth, hands, and feet. Not saying that you can't successfully pin someone on their back; obviously you can. But it involves more commitment and less mobility (ability to quickly disengage) for the pinner to successfully do this.
Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu
Thank you, Mr. Cook!! I know of what you speak!!:laugh:
When I learned the "pinning" techniques in Judo, I was taught to look at them as more transitional in nature, or as a point from where I could move on to jime or kansetsu waza,not as an end in itself, and I'm sure everyone's method may vary,on the other hand while studying Aikido,I learned that the majority of pins were an end to themselves,Like Mr. Cook said,either an anatomical lock or pain compliance,with little or no room for movement,without causing extreme "exquisite" pain and/or dislocation,and I know this from being on the wrong end of a Sankyo pin many,many times,not to mention other pins,but Sankyo always seemed to hurt the worst!! Back on topic,I wonder if anybody else learned Katame waza the way I did? As a "roadstop" along the way,and not the final destination? By the way, there are not many Judo clubs around here,so I rarely get a chance to yap about it! Thoughts, anyone???
Best Regards,
Paul Bladen
The main disadvantage to pinning face-down is that the guy may get his hands under his chest and do a pushup (of sorts) to get out. If you can prevent this, then face-down is great for many of the reasons the good Master Sergeant mentioned.
Aikido has a few reasonably good ones, including having the guy on his belly and an arm out at 90 degrees with your knee just above his elbow and your hands controlling him.
Hard to get, but it seems to work. Hurts like hell, too. I'm sure there's a way to wiggle out of it but I haven't figured it out (yet).
Telling the guy to chill out, not to struggle, that you won't hurt him further if he stops struggling, etc., seems to help SOMETIMES.
Does anyone know of a face-down pin where you actually pull the guy's arms back, as if he were doing a sloppy butterfly stroke (in swimming, not MA), and you use your own legs like a full nelson, with your feet touching or crossed behind the guy's neck/head? It's a funny position, looks like you're sitting cross-legged on the guy with his arms up and out. Anyone familiar with this one?
Also, the guy before this post was right about a few things with choke-outs: guys pass out and have no idea they were out and they are still pissed off and still want to fight. It's the darnedest thing. I don't get it.
Consequently, when making chokes on the street (I've made 7, I think), making it uncomfortable for the guy and only squeezing him all the way out if you feel you cannot control him seemed to get better results than the times I just put him out. I have no idea how I mustered the finesse during the fights - maybe I wasn't scared enough to loose my fine motor control or maybe that kind of movement is not fine enough to loose under pressure.
Go figure.
Face down knee in the small of back palm in back of neck has worked best for me.
In BJJ we call this "knee on" or "Vale Tudo Mount". Obviously on the back, not the front.
rubberband
07-07-2004, 15:10
When you pin someone you do not put them on their back... you put them on their shoulders ideally with their feet over their head and their body in a nice little ball... helplessly stacked and stuck... this is a complete immobilization and stands as the pinacle of ground control... it is mainly a sport thing...
as for face up vs. face down... when your facing the ground all your body force is set to push yourself up. however when you face up all your body force is set up to push yourself down... like a turtle on its back...
I hope this helps, steve
As a judo instructor when I teach a throw I emphasize holding onto tori's arm. In randori or nagekomi you pull up uke a little to assist falling on the side and not flat on the back. This is part of Mutual Benefit and Welfare. Also, when you learn to hold onto the arm you can then transition immediately into a wrist lock and turn them face down for control. Yes, if you can bear the pain of your wrist and elbow being broke you can stand up. As you rise your knee will be broke with a swift kick. I maintain my standing posture at all times. Most people will not stand as the pain will be to intense. In a self defense situation I would not enter any kind mount as I do not wish to sacrifice mobility.
Peace
Dennis
Ok several of you guys have metioned being able to bench press some off of you.
Once upon a time I could bench press 405 for ten reps. I was training with a 6th degree Kodakan Black Belt Japanese gentelman from the Kodakan, he had me pinned in a top four corner Pin. Tamishiogatame Dam broke my rule and used Japanese, oh well probably misspelled it. I am sure one the expert linguist in the forum will correct me on my spelling. Anyway I could not bench him off of me to save my life. At the time I was weighing in at 280 and he weighed 165 soking wet. I was a young 26 years old and he was in his mid fortys. So I have to disagree with the bench press as a technique unless of course your Bob Sapp, or Andre the Giant. Hahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!1
You don't just press up, you get your knees and elbows underneath you and get to your base in a way I am having a hard time explaining in text. I guess when I wrote "bench press" or "pushup" I was using the expression as a euphamism, but I think you understand now what I meant.
Jack Stay
07-21-2004, 13:21
You must understand that pinning anyone is reminiscent of ritual combat to make the guy give up (say 'Uncle') without killing or maiming.
Don't forget that Ju-do was derived from Ju-jitsu (the Do, Jitsu difference: holding vs. maiming), so Judo is a watered down version of Jujitsu.
The pin in Judo is a humane way of defeating your opponent. In the street, the pin is a humane way of holding down a criminal while you yell for the cops.
In competition, the hold-down is real, you are actually preventing the guy from getting up, and after 30 seconds of this, you win the match.
Just remember that Judo is a humane form of Jujitsu (Jujitsu is quite nasty).
I can understand there can be reasons given for pins being awarded points in judo competition. I don't know the historical reasoning but you can say it demonstrates control.
But why pin people on their back? Whats the advantage over the sides or front?
Holding someone face-down seems to have the advantage that it makes it harder for them to fight back. The sides don't seem very different from the back really. Taking pins as being a valid means of demonstrating fighting ability in competition is there any reason to NOT include pins that just hold someone down and relatively still for a certain time?
Also, wrestling has the same fascination with holding people down on their backs, is there a reason for this too?
I guess I'll take your word that it's virtually impossible John. I would like to try it though. Anyone tried doing it? Like reverse judo, try and throw them on their front and pin them on their front. Could be fun.
That would be fun....maybe someday I'll try it
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