Leg Catchers

[numskul]

Tonight is sparring night. I am quite sure that there will be a gentlemen there who is more senior in rank than I. He is older, tires pretty quickly and doesn't kick very high. However, he is very large, very strong and loves to grab kicks and try to toss you backward or take you down with a sweep. It is like sparring with a "grabby" tree and I am not allowed to bring a chainsaw. My normal strategy is to keep him moving and dodging so that he gets tired and careless. Tonight, I would like to surprise him.;)

I suspect I am going to hear a lot of "don't kick, then" or "kick his legs so he has to bend down to grab your leg, then kick him in the head". :) The problem is, we are expected to use and exercise our kicks during sparring. Because I am a lower belt, we are not allowed to kick to the head or the legs (either of us). I would like to learn how to counter his grab/throw, so that I have a greater arsenal at my disosal and don't develop an aversion to kicking.

Any suggestions?

[Jeff Burger]

Any suggestions?

Yes, post non-style specific question outside of style specific areas to get more replies.

[numskul]

Yes, post non-style specific question outside of style specific areas to get more replies.

Sorry- I study Hapkido. I thought that there may be a Hapkido answer to this. I am not sure my instructor would like me using a BJJ technique. If this post is inappropriate, and needs to be moved, I would appreciate if one of the mods would please put it in the right place.

[andyb28]

For me (Karate) I would stick to Front Kick and Side Kick only as they can be pulled back very quickly, Hook/roundhouse etc not so much unless you are very good.

I was taught to pull my front kick back very far, so that your foot almost hits your back side, in doing this, after impact, it is not there long enough for someone to absorb and grab.

Or hit him much harder to knock him back ;)

[numskul]

For me (Karate) I would stick to Front Kick and Side Kick only as they can be pulled back very quickly, Hook/roundhouse etc not so much unless you are very good.

I was taught to pull my front kick back very far, so that your foot almost hits your back side, in doing this, after impact, it is not there long enough for someone to absorb and grab.

Or hit him much harder to knock him back ;)

Thanks for your advice. I am working on faster kicks and recoils. I am pretty limited to front and side kicks anyway. Hooks and crescents take me a century to execute, still.

I may try to hit him a little harder, too. That, for me, is easier with a side kick.

Blessings

[andyb28]

Same here Numskul

After a long break from Martial arts, I have only been back doing it around 6 months and have to stick to the same kicks in sparring. I am about a stone overweight at the moment and my flexibility hasn't yet returned.

I find sticking with what your strengths are always works best, its the minute you think I will try one of those, you get caught out.

[Nick L.]

How about kicking to the inside of the leg rather than the outer. Should be harder for the tree to catch.

[Jeff Burger]

Moved to kickboxing as there maybe responses from other striking styles.

[Jeff Burger]

From your description this is very limited sparring.
Limited sparring can be a good thing because it forces you to work on more specific things and not just your "go to" techniques.

Id say work on speed and fakes.

Try using kicks as counters. Their attack can be a moment of weakness. They are more focused on their attack then defending and any weapon attacking you means it is not defending him, so the opening is often related to the attacking weapon.


If he catches your kick see if you can skip in and slide you leg in deeper and clinch him, sometimes you can hit with the knee here.

In the ring or on mats I have no problem with throwing up my base leg for a sacrifice kick.

[numskul]

From your description this is very limited sparring.
Limited sparring can be a good thing because it forces you to work on more specific things and not just your "go to" techniques.

Id say work on speed and fakes.

Try using kicks as counters. Their attack can be a moment of weakness. They are more focused on their attack then defending and any weapon attacking you means it is not defending him, so the opening is often related to the attacking weapon.


If he catches your kick see if you can skip in and slide you leg in deeper and clinch him, sometimes you can hit with the knee here.

In the ring or on mats I have no problem with throwing up my base leg for a sacrifice kick.

Thanks for moving this to the right place. I would have never guessed to put it here.

The sparring is limited for us lower belts. We are asked to focus on technique and accuracy. With upper belts, we can also increase power- which is good with the tree.

I will try your advice and try to counter with some kicks. Often, I end up kicking his shins with my shins when I try to do this. I think I just need to be more patient. This is coming with practice, but I still have a ways to go. I also love the idea of a sacrificial fall to get in one last kick. Generally, I roll backward over my shoulder to get out of the way. Getting a last kick in might give him some pause the next time he feels like grabbing a leg. It may also slow him down and give me more time to get back to a fighting stance anfter executing the roll.

Speed and fakes will also be my motto for tonight!

Nick L- That is great advice, but I am not allowed to do leg kicks, yet. I do get an opportunity to practice this with a "few" upper belts from time-to-time, but generally we are restricted in kicks to the head or legs.

[CEB]

Punch him in the face.

Other than that you have 3 ways out of the situation and zero guarantees.

[numskul]

Punch him in the face.

Other than that you have 3 ways out of the situation and zero guarantees.

That would be my first choice. For sparring, that is not allowed; not yet, anyway.
If I acknowledge there are no guarantees, will you tell me the three ways?

I am still laughing at Dog Judo, btw.

Blessings

[Jeff Burger]

Thanks for moving this to the right place. I would have never guessed to put it here.

Few Hapkidoist here and lots of other striking stylist that could have input.




Punch him in the face.


You could save yourself some typing and just make that your quote.

[CEB]

That would be my first choice. For sparring, that is not allowed; not yet, anyway.
If I acknowledge there are no guarantees, will you tell me the three ways?

I am still laughing at Dog Judo, btw.

Blessings

You may already have them. I just read the OP.

For starters work on your kicks. That is the problem. He should NOT be grabbing your kicks. You are doing flippy kicks. Flippy kicks are crap. That is why the PKA and PKC had 8 minimum kick per round rule. Muay Thai has no minimum kick rule and they kick all the time. I can't remember the last time anyone grabbed on of my kicks. ( EDIT - I am a Karate guy I just used Muay Thai as a comparative. Good Kicks are good kick bad kicks are bad )

I challenge anyone to grab Gene's front kick and he is 60 years old. When you kick... KICK! and bring it back even HARDER and faster than it went out. I have partner drill where you stick out a front kick and your partner holds it. Then you return your kick trying to pull your partner on his face. You need to drive the kick's return. That is the point of the drill.

Someone probably mentioned closing after the grab. Bend your leg knee skyward and clinch. Your are on one leg he is one 2 and he could still dump you on your head but you have improved your position and your can now hit him in the face!

My favorite bailout move is to take the other guys head off by rounding kicking with your post leg. But if you can't punch to the face you sure can not do this move either.

But that is just me. I'm just some strange guy on the internet.

[numskul]

You may already have them. I just read the OP.

For starters work on your kicks. That is the problem. He should NOT be grabbing your kicks. You are doing flippy kicks. Flippy kicks are crap. That is why the PKA and PKC had 8 minimum kick per round rule. Muay Thai has no minimum kick rule and they kick all the time. I can't remeber the last time anyone grabbed on of my kicks. I challenge anyone to grab Gene's front kick. When you kick... KICK! and bring it back even HARDER and faster than it went out. I have partner drill where you stick out a front kick and your partner holds it. Then you return your kick trying to pull your partner on his face. You need to drive the kick's return.

Someone probably mentioned closing after the grab. Bend your leg knee skyward and clinch. Your are on one leg he is one 2 and he could still dump you on your head but you have improved your position and your can now hit him in the face!

My favorite bailout move is to take the other guys head off by rounding kicking with your post leg. But if you can't punch to the face you sure can not do this move either.

But that is just me. I'm just some strange guy on the internet.

Thank you! This is great advice. I will work on my kicks more, too. It is good to know it is possible to kick so well he doesn't have a chance to grab it. I know this will take time. I am expected to maintain accuracy/form too, so I have to be patient. My side kick has shown a lot of improvement, but I know I have a long way to go.

Thanks, everyone, for offering great suggestions. I'll let you know how it goes.

[CEB]

I don't know anything about you but my guess based on my experience is.....

You are being taught to use and are using snap kicks. I like snap kicks I use them but I have a theory which I owe to my discussions with Gene from over the years.

I don't think we should teach snap kicks to students until students perform thrust kicks at a good level. In the end all kicks have thrust kick elements in them. Snap kicks are just not effective until we LEARN that.

The feet is the farthest thing from the brain. It takes a while to learn how to really control your body.

Bad side of teaching this way isthere will be more injuries in Karate dojo because more people will actually be able to kick effectively at an earlier grade. I see a lot of pretty kicks in Karate that are Crap.

[Yoshimura]

The best thing is to anticpate the grab. Two options might work:

1) While kicking, move forward towards him, this way you are not getting off balance and directly into an offensive position

2) Fake the kick, then kick again, this works for me in Tae Kwon Do every time. The opponent tries to grab, but only into the air, then he is wide open.

[CEB]

Develop strong effective fundementals that can hurt someone if necessary. Then worry trickery and ploys. Don't fake just hit'em.

[numskul]

I don't know anything about you but my guess based on my experience is.....

You are being taught to use and are using snap kicks. I like snap kicks I use them but I have a theory which I owe to my discussions with Gene from over the years.

I don't think we should teach snap kicks to students until students perform thrust kicks at a good level. In the end all kicks have thrust kick elements in them. Snap kicks are just not effective until we LEARN that.

The feet is the farthest thing from the brain. It takes a while to learn how to really control your body.

Bad side of teaching this way isthere will be more injuries in Karate dojo because more people will actually be able to kick effectively at an earlier grade. I see a lot of pretty kicks in Karate that are Crap.

Not too far off.

We are taught snap kicks (first) but not encouraged to use them. Side kicks are preferred and empahsized for anyone above white belt.

Round houses are also taught, but again, not emphsized unless they are to the head (which I am not allowed to do, yet). I think they come back in higher ranks.

I love the side kick- especially for use on a quickly approaching/attacking opponent. This seems to have the most effect for the least effort. They often end up on their butt. But- I still have to work on my speed and technique when sparring against higher ranks- it is way to easy to grab.

I think I will use much of the advice I have received here today and still keep my aerobic offense up with "the tree". I suspect a lot of the reason he waits for the grab is it is giving him a chance to rest. Rather than mount an offense, he just waits for me to attack- then he grabs it. If I force him to use his legs and arms more- and move around- it may open him up a bit (and tire him out)and allow me to practice some other techniques/kicks/combos. Two weeks ago I surprised him with a back-fist and he totally opened up. I really didn't capitalize on it because I wasn't expecting it. Using that as the fake, or front, to the real attack, which will be a side kick or set of kicks, may be the secret sauce. Also, if he does grab my leg, I don't think there is any rule about FAKING a strike to the face- or even giving him an elbow in the chest. I'll have to keep that in mind, too.

Your insight and experience is appreciated.

[Jeff Burger]

I only fake a technique I have hurt him with. The fake works off his reaction.

Hurting him so is thinking about the pain and not grabbing is always good.

[American HKD]

Tonight is sparring night. I am quite sure that there will be a gentlemen there who is more senior in rank than I. He is older, tires pretty quickly and doesn't kick very high. However, he is very large, very strong and loves to grab kicks and try to toss you backward or take you down with a sweep. It is like sparring with a "grabby" tree and I am not allowed to bring a chainsaw. My normal strategy is to keep him moving and dodging so that he gets tired and careless. Tonight, I would like to surprise him.;)

I suspect I am going to hear a lot of "don't kick, then" or "kick his legs so he has to bend down to grab your leg, then kick him in the head". :) The problem is, we are expected to use and exercise our kicks during sparring. Because I am a lower belt, we are not allowed to kick to the head or the legs (either of us). I would like to learn how to counter his grab/throw, so that I have a greater arsenal at my disosal and don't develop an aversion to kicking.

Any suggestions?

I don't see a problem here and you answered your own question.

Is it posiible you're not setting up your kicks correctly??? It's never wise just to throw them for the sake of throwing them.

Use a fake to set them up, then kick etc... Fake a kick when he goes for it use a throw.

Ok

[numskul]

I don't see a problem here and you answered your own question.

Is it posiible you're not setting up your kicks correctly??? It's never wise just to throw them for the sake of throwing them.

Use a fake to set them up, then kick etc... Fake a kick when he goes for it use a throw.

Ok

That is quite possible. Sometimes I just kick to get a little space.
I think I just need to work more/harder on my kicking and recoil. Thanks for your comment.

Bad news- I had to skip sparring last night, and the tree didn't show up, anyway. I guess I get to think about it a little longer, now!

[De_Franza]

"Although he was an enemy of mine, I had to admit, his strategy was flawless. First, he punched me.
Then, he kicked me.
Then, he punched me again"

(Deep thoughts, by Jack Handey (paraphrased))

But seriously, go with what the the others have said, but I'd try a face-level punch to draw his guard up, and a 'snappy' front kick retracted immediately. This is a good opportunity to work on retracting faster.

Hope it goes (went?) well!