My View of Systema Criticism

[ezzthetic]

I'd just like to add my name to those non-Systema people who can attest to its effectiveness. The current economic crisis in Iceland means there is now constant noise coming from people who just cannot see or respect different points of view or possibly accept that you can operate by a completely different paradigm (noisy minority). Carl Jung once wrote that "what irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves." When I'm confronted with something that annoys me, I always try to understand why. Why does it annoy me? Almost invariably it is because of some fault in my own character or because I don't fully comprehend what I'm seeing/experiencing.

When I first saw a clip of Systema (Vladimir Vasiliev, I believe) sent to me by a friend via email, I dismissed it quickly. It looked sloppy. It wasn't until much later that I started to understand and explore Systema with an open mind. I accepted that I didn't know a damn thing about what I was seeing and I was prejudging based on my own ideas of what constitutes "the authentic". This is often the problem of looking at the same thing from two different points of view. If you look at a mountain from the east, you might describe it as narrow. If you look at the same mountain from the north, you might describe it as wide. Yet neither view is more or less correct. It's a matter of perspective. If we keep an open mind we can gradually form a more three dimensional picture of the mountain with our mind's eye. I cannot explain what it is Mikhail Ryabko does exactly, but I will not throw out the baby with the bathwater. I have no practical reason to say what I do not currently understand is fraud. I could have called Vasiliev a fraud before I understood what he was doing... and I would've been wrong. I certainly have some clue as to what it is Ryabko is doing (playing with the feint reflex) and I know that Vasiliev seems to hold him in high regard.

I will reserve judgment.

We do not always need to make judgments on everything. We're not that wise. The world goes on perfectly well without our expert input, just like the plumber doesn't really need our help with fixing the sink. Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean you have to voice it. I wish my compatriots would understand and not be shocked that nobody wants to listen to their infantile shouting.

Anyone who's ever performed a service-type job can appreciate how tiresome it is when some unknowledgeable buffoon tells us how to go about things they have no experience of themselves. Not understanding something is a fact of life. We can't possibly understand everything. Isn't it wise to develop a personal philosophy for dealing with the unknown and that which we cannot understand? Bottom line is that Systema is good stuff if you are open-minded.

[jwinch2]

Interesting Dadi. Did you recently get some exposure to the art that opened your mind in some way? As for the rest, I agree. I myself have plenty of character flaws thus, I am annoyed by many things! LOL

[ezzthetic]

Interesting Dadi. Did you recently get some exposure to the art that opened your mind in some way? As for the rest, I agree. I myself have plenty of character flaws thus, I am annoyed by many things! LOL

No, it's been quite a few years now.

There's no such thing as a perfect man. A lot of pompous a-holes that might think they are, but no perfect men.

Haha, but my wife would say the perfect men are wo-men!

[Jay Bell]

Thanks for your thoughts, Dadi.

[Michael J. Bray]

:bow: Gentelmen (and ladies), While no expert in Systema I will offer this. Not all things are easily seen with the naked eye. You have to expirience it to believe it. I have to a small degree and it is very, very real. What may appear as "sloppiness" is likely the totally relaxed state the practitioners achieve while under extreme duress of combat. I encourage you that if oportunity comes your way to give it a closer look, it IS worth your time. :bow:

[DragonMind]

I've had an opportunity to attend a couple Systema classes. Gads, I've never been hit so hard by anything that didn't have a engine. It reminded me of Bruce Lee's old description of Kung Fu as being a steel chain with a ball on the end. Totally loose and relaxed but the whipping motion creates a serious impact. I'm definitely interested in looking at it more.

[Jeff Burger]

I was pretty skeptical of Systema until I felt it.

[Nick L.]

Has anyone viewed the Ballistic Striking videos or book by Val R.. I have been knocking around the idea of ordering them but I know it is difficult to learn from media and I have been disappointed in the past with the content and elementary explanations of other instructional books.

[Jeff Burger]

I have them. As far as learning from those videos I would say save your money.

I do think there is a lot you can learn from videos (no matter the style) if you have the basics. You will get a decent demo from these DVDs and a little instruction that falls short of really teaching you how to do it.

[Jay Bell]

I'd like to echo what Jeff has said. I've always liked and appreciated Val's approach to teaching striking in Systema. They are good, the only difference to anything else is the analogy format that he uses.

What I've also found, in reference to what Nick is saying, is Systema *does* easily translate from video to learning, which was very new to me in the beginning. Someone can get a decent, fundamental idea from working with the principles from the videos.

[Tony Dismukes]

My only direct exposure to Systema was through a local club working out with some guys who were studying the art via seminars. None of them were very advanced, so I couldn't make a real judgment of the art, but I did find some of the training methods interesting and potentially valuable.

It seems that everybody who encounters Systema mentions the powerful hitting. I've watched the videos (which seem to be pretty much demos rather than any sort of actual instruction), and the major teachers of the art do look like they're generating some excellent relaxed power. On the other hand, the videos seem to feature one student standing square and letting a practitioner take free shots. (Yes, I know that at least some of that is an exercise for the recipient to practice absorbing the impact.) I've never tried standing square and letting a pro boxer take free bare-knuckle shots at my midsection, but I imagine a lot of pros could drop me with one shot if I tried that. For those of you who say, "I've never been hit that hard", have you made an apples-to-apples comparison with getting hit bare-knuckle by an experienced boxer under the same conditions?

(To clarify, I would consider it a fair comparison if you stood still and gave free bare-knuckle shots to both the boxer and the Systema practitioner, or if you compared getting hit in competition by each one wearing gloves. Also, it would be good if the boxer and Systemist had comparable skill & experience levels - there's probably no more point in comparing Vladimir Vasiliev with a beginning amateur boxer than there is comparing Roy Jones Jr with a beginning Systema practitioner.)

[Jay Bell]

I taught for about three and a half years, and while the demos seem to love the square-up taking shots method, the same applies in the application of the principles as well. The force of the blows does not just apply to the measured and planned strikes. Some of the hardest shots I'd ever taken were when I was trying to open someone up with a boot knife.

[Jeff Burger]

I think I have every Systema video in English there is out there.

I think Kevin Secour's videos (Primal Power and Warhead) are a great place to start.

I think Rob Poyton of Systema UK did a excellent job on his videos teaching basics.

Emmanuel Manolakakis's knife DVD - EXCELLENT for beginners.

Once you have the basics you can learn alot for the Vasliev videos if you have people to train with.

I trained with a instructor for about a year and now I get together with a few of the guys once a week and we will literally work off the videos picking one topic and focusing on it for a month.

[Tony Dismukes]

Jeff, do you have any experiences which would address my question above regarding apples-to-apples comparison of boxing vs Systema punching power?

[Jeff Burger]

I'd say Jay Bell can answer this alot better than I.
I still consider myself a nubie in Systema.


From my own experience the boxing glove just makes for a different dynamic than a barehand.
I have had ok success with a MMA glove.

[Jay Bell]

Hrm...great question, Tony.

When I was active, I had a lot of karateka and boxers come and train occasionally (a couple regularly). It's hard to compare. We had a professional boxer come in once who was Russian who saw and heard (and later felt) how Systema striking worked and said it was just too confusing to him to wrap his head around, although it was the hardest he'd been hit. He laughed a lot and shook his head, saying his body could never do that for lack of the hip/shoulder rotation.

*Taking* shots is much different between the two. Systema-style striking just seems to go much much deeper into the body then what I have felt from boxers. Not at all to say that the boxers I've spent time with had excelled in their physical combat of choice, it's just what I've been able to notice with what I've had in front of me.

[DragonMind]

Very hard question to answer since no two people will ever hit exactly the same. Closest I came is the Systema guy who hit me was a student of V's for about a year or so and now works with a group self studying from videos and attending seminars when they can. The boxer is a local college level / semi-pro competitive boxer with about 10 years of boxing experience. The Systema strike just flat hurts more and I suspect it is due to what I can only describe as whole-body penetration. He hit me in the chest and my toenails felt it. The boxer doubled me over but the pain was localized.

[ezzthetic]

They are definitely different... but in the end it doesn't matter because in a real situation you'll get KTFO either way.

[Michael J. Bray]

:bow: Gentlemen (and ladies). Although it has not yet been my honor to meet and train with Mikhail Ryabko and Vladamir Vasiliev personally, I do train with some who have done so. Each of these people have their own unique tale of the expirience yet all cherish the expirience. Tonight I would have posted a link or two to some You Tube videos but my computer is kicking my butt tonight. (score: computer 5/me 0) :D Systema is MORE than just hitting hard.. The mindset these people achieve and total relaxation under duress is simply incredible. There is a multitude of video on YouTube if you search Mikhail or Vladamir. It is a fascinating art and well worth any time one spends exploring it. (and it's extremely scarce around my neighborhood :cry:) :bow:

[Michael J. Bray]

:rolleyes::o Not only is the computer winning tonight, but it seems I can neithere talk, type or spell:laugh: These are very good indicators that it's time to turn in for the night. A wise man knows when he's been whipped. Good night ya'll!

[Jeff Burger]

Here is a little Youtube clip of a friend and classmate of mine giving a non believer a taste of Systema striking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grSPNc7o0Do

[Nick L.]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: He Puked! :D

The more I think about it, it is just the same principle as swinging a sledge hammer. If you try to muscle it all the way through a swing the impact it low and it hurts your lower arms. If you just get the momentum going and let the weight of the sledge do the work, the impact is twice as hard and you don't work yourself to death.

[Jeff Burger]

Yes letting the weight do the work is important.

[Jay Bell]

Good times :D

[Michael J. Bray]

:bow: Hello forum. A few days back we had a thread going with reference to critisism of Systema. Darned if I can navigate back to it tonight:confused: Anyway, I tried to post a video but my computer whipped me . I'll try again. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFvN5CoTBA4
Some of you may have seen it, but it is worth watching:bow: Can one of you that is WAY more knowledgable about these gizmos please move this to the appropriate place? Thank you in advance.

[Nick L.]

Just when I started to think seriously about investing some time and money in systema, I find this magic BS about striking with no contact, using internal energy and no touch combat? If anyone can realistically explain this, please proceed.

This is one of the two "main" figures in systema. :rolleyes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWE7kCXnRd0&feature=related

This is just flat out hilarious. :cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e9Yvmn5raA&feature=related

I don't know what to say about this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgi44CRhGv8&feature=related

[Michael J. Bray]

:bow:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFvN5CoTBA4

I tried to post this a few days ago when the computer was winning. I hope you all enjoy it!:bow:

[tgace334]

Here is a little Youtube clip of a friend and classmate of mine giving a non believer a taste of Systema striking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grSPNc7o0Do

Im not skeptical of the system...I am skeptical of the "just stand there and let someone punch you" method of proving a strikes effectiveness.

[Jeff Burger]

I have nothing to say as for the psychic energy / chi stuff. I know I have taken dives myself just from the reaction to strikes that were not even there.


I am skeptical of the "just stand there and let someone punch you" method of proving a strikes effectiveness.

You know how you tell people to go slow in class and they always go fast anyway?
Well that doesn't keep happening in Systema because running into these and the way they use the tension in your body against you makes getting hit alot worse.

[Ramirez]

I have to admit I am skeptical about Systema, particularly when you see the videos that Nick posted...that was enough to make me question it. It reminds me of the 80s ninja craze.

Still though, when guys like Jeff Burger says it is legit, I have to reconsider.

[Nick L.]

I don't know any of you guys from Adam or Eve outside of this forum. I still have to consider our moderators word on martial arts to hold merit, simply due to the fact that Robert sees fit to have you as mods. For some reason unknown to me, this stuff intrigues me and I just want to experience it for myself. There are quacks in every form of profession, martial art, religion etc.. I think the only way I could ever answer my own question, is to train a little bit. So, if any of you systema guys know of any classes, seminars or whatever happening any where close to Louisiana, please let me know. I have tried to search for anything close and had no luck.

[Ramirez]

I don't know any of you guys from Adam or Eve outside of this forum. I still have to consider our moderators word on martial arts to hold merit, simply due to the fact that Robert sees fit to have you as mods. For some reason unknown to me, this stuff intrigues me and I just want to experience it for myself. There are quacks in every form of profession, martial art, religion etc.. I think the only way I could ever answer my own question, is to train a little bit. So, if any of you systema guys know of any classes, seminars or whatever happening any where close to Louisiana, please let me know. I have tried to search for anything close and had no luck.

I don't know Jeff or have ever met him, I missed my chance when he was up here for a seminar at Musubi Dojo, my sensei (Ray Martin if you recall Jeff) did say he was very impressed with how hard Jeff could hit....was that Systema at the time Jeff?

[Jeff Burger]

I'm a newbie for Systema.

I did not do Systema at the seminar nor do I consider myself qualified to teach or even give a legit Systema demo.

First Systema video I saw was MASTER OF FIGHTING and I was happy to right off Systema from then on. Some years later a friend convinced me to give it a 2nd look and I toyed with some of the earlier vidoes. Then I meet Arthur Sennot and I can not tell you how absolutely blown away I was.

Win or lose I'm usually willing to bang with anybody, Arthur was the first person I worked with a long time that was actually scary.

[Michael J. Bray]

:bow: Gentlemen (and ladies). I am not qualified to teach systema. My Sensei was trained by Mikhail and Vladimir and is licensed to teach Systema under them. I have expirienced a little of the art and it is REAL. This is not standing there taking a strike for purpose of taking a strike. (that would be just about as "bright" as standing in front of an oncoming train...) There is learning present here. There is FAR more happening than is seen. I only encourage you that if the opportunity ever comes your way to give this a try it is very much worth your time and effort. (: It does hurt a bit however) :bow:

[D Dempsey]

I attended a seminar with Vlad and I've worked out with some systema instructors and I'm still pretty skeptical of the whole things. The guys I met and trained with who trained in Kadochnikov system and ROSS more consistent overall, but the the systema guys were all over the place skill wise. Then there are guys running like Vadim Starov:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpuxvCo1N3I

[Nick L.]

Starov looked pretty terrible, was that your intent?

[D Dempsey]

Sort of. He actually looks pretty terrible in all of his videos I've seen of him regardless of what he is doing as in the previously posted videos of him using psychic powers.

[Nick L.]

I didn't realize it was the same guy, until now. Anyway, I don't want to be any more critical than I already have. I still want to experience it for myself, maybe Jay Bell can give a lesson if there is ever one of those Budoseek meetings that I keep reading about. I'll be the punch dummy! That is at least one thing I can do.

[Ramirez]

You know I live close enough in Toronto to go to Vasilev's club myself and check it out. I have to say though, I really don't hear anyone in the local martial arts community raving about him or his club. I might do that an report back if I get a chance.

I am a member (although I have had a hard time attending since my son was born) of the Toronto Police Martial Arts club and the LEOs there had him come by to do a few knife defense seminars, in fact they put some of the defenses into the syllabus but if Systema was all it was hyped to be you think at least the police department would be interested in it.

[Ramirez]

At about 22 seconds in, this is one of the knife defence that the Toronto Police Martial arts club put into the syllabus. Minus the knife being wielded by the defender of course i.e modified for being unarmed, LEOs aren't supposed to get into knife fights.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=xPYrwrMRP08

[Nick L.]

This is a marketing tool but for what its worth, I thought someone might find it interesting.

http://valriazanov.com/ebook/myjourney.pdf

[tgace334]

You know I live close enough in Toronto to go to Vasilev's club myself and check it out. I have to say though, I really don't hear anyone in the local martial arts community raving about him or his club. I might do that an report back if I get a chance.

I am a member (although I have had a hard time attending since my son was born) of the Toronto Police Martial Arts club and the LEOs there had him come by to do a few knife defense seminars, in fact they put some of the defenses into the syllabus but if Systema was all it was hyped to be you think at least the police department would be interested in it.

Dont be too impressed over what the Cops pick and choose (trust me on that one..lots of stuff and gear has accumulated over the years). Insted look at what they stick with for a long time or what the majority pick..thats a better indication of what works in the long term.

[Ramirez]

Dont be too impressed over what the Cops pick and choose (trust me on that one..lots of stuff and gear has accumulated over the years). Insted look at what they stick with for a long time or what the majority pick..thats a better indication of what works in the long term.

Sorry Thomas, I don't quite understand...what is the majority pick? What they stick with for a long time? Were you referring to the knife defenses or jiu-jitsu? Or are you saying don't take what the police do for martial arts seriously?

[Jay Bell]

Im not skeptical of the system...I am skeptical of the "just stand there and let someone punch you" method of proving a strikes effectiveness.

You are grossly taking things out of context of the drill if that is what you believe is happening. This is one of the many reasons why I wish demo type work was not on the internet.

There's a trade occuring. The person delivering the strike is working on that area of work. The person receiving, on that end.

[Jay Bell]

I didn't realize it was the same guy, until now. Anyway, I don't want to be any more critical than I already have. I still want to experience it for myself, maybe Jay Bell can give a lesson if there is ever one of those Budoseek meetings that I keep reading about. I'll be the punch dummy! That is at least one thing I can do.

Absolutely, Nick. I'd be happy to. The way that strikes are delivered is really so simple that it makes it horribly difficult (for some). You spend more time removing things that you've added on in the years then really learning new things to tack on.

[Nick L.]

Absolutely, Nick. I'd be happy to. The way that strikes are delivered is really so simple that it makes it horribly difficult (for some). You spend more time removing things that you've added on in the years then really learning new things to tack on.

I ordered the DVD's by Val R., I figure if I don't get anything out of them I can at least recoup some money on eBay. However, just from reading the "small" book he wrote on the basic introduction to ballistic striking I kinda have a better feel for what his method is.

[tgace334]

Sorry Thomas, I don't quite understand...what is the majority pick? What they stick with for a long time? Were you referring to the knife defenses or jiu-jitsu? Or are you saying don't take what the police do for martial arts seriously?


In a nutshell Im saying "dont be too impressed over what one or even a handfull of police agencies are doing"..I have some inside experience regarding the "how and why" some stuff gets picked over others and Ill leave it at thst. ;)

[Jeff Burger]

The way that strikes are delivered is really so simple that it makes it horribly difficult (for some).

That "some" would be me.

[Jay Bell]

That "some" would be me.

Me too. In fact, I would have said "all", but then people would think I was being cheeky. ;)

[Jeff Burger]

Oddly I'm thinking I need to go visit Arthur cause it has been awhile since I have really been hit.
Systema is an aquired taste and to be honest these boxers and kick boxers just dont cut it.

[len mccoy]

I suspect many people here are like me. Extremely active in martial arts years ago but current lifestyles make regular dojo training an unlikely option. Why else would we be on the internet instead of at the dojo? Just giving up is simply not an acceptable option. Everyone has moments in their day to train. The kata you used to practice in class can still be done at home. I have a few kata I have been working on this way for over 20 years. Naihanchi, sanchin and tensho can even be done in a decent sized restroom. Certainly rank advancement will not come this way but was that really important?

But here is the catch, repetion of old lessons is certainly valuable but the human mind always longs for something more, a new lesson. One option would be to look to books and tapes from the style(s) you used to practice for fine points, training tips and methods common to the style but perhaps not to your dojo. There is also the study of the history, language and culture of your style which may be achievable in small bites of time most of us have. Now the big question, can I learn something entirely new from a book, tape internet etc. To Japanese Koryu this probably sounds like something beyond immoral, but not Systema.

Both on the various Systema web sites and from the people involved that I have written to I get the same answer. Although learning from the web site, dvds etc is less than ideal it can be a very benifical to your martial arts practice and to your life in general.

Personally I have been practicing some breathing coordinated with various exercises and cold water dousing. What I have noticed from the dousing (stand outside on the ground aligned and relaxed, poor two buckets of cold water over yourself, try to control your breathing while doing so) is that all the sore joints in my body feel very pain free for about 20 minutes and even later are in considerable less pain. Coldest day I have done this so far is about 12F. Just my thought on something unique Systema can offer many of us.

Respectfully,
Len McCoy

[Nick L.]

Personally I have been practicing some breathing coordinated with various exercises and cold water dousing. What I have noticed from the dousing (stand outside on the ground aligned and relaxed, poor two buckets of cold water over yourself, try to control your breathing while doing so) is that all the sore joints in my body feel very pain free for about 20 minutes and even later are in considerable less pain. Coldest day I have done this so far is about 12F. Just my thought on something unique Systema can offer many of us.


No way am I doing that, I live in South Louisiana. I think that would kill me on the spot, the final lesson.

[Jeff Burger]

I suspect many people here are like me. Extremely active in martial arts years ago but current lifestyles make regular dojo training an unlikely option. Why else would we be on the internet instead of at the dojo?

I live in the gym.
Each week I teach 27 classes and give 2-3 privates. I take 6 hours of BJJ classes, take one boxing private and one boxing session (would not really call it a class).
Currently I'm trying to make time and energy for some weights and conditioning.

[len mccoy]

Rasputin, different people react differently to cold. Back in 85 I had my reactions to cold put to an extreme test at Bridgeport, CA by the Marine Corps. It was a month living outside in the cold. I faired as well as anyone and better than some in my Battalion. Growing up in drafty old farm house in PA and having chores to do all season didn't hurt. Still cold reduces everyone's efficiency. I definitely would not have started dousing in the winter but honestly after the water hits you, you start feeling warm and relaxed. I also wouldn't do it while out camping when you cannot get back inside in a couple of minutes.

Jeff, if you have a normal career and family life and aren't ignoring social and civic responsibilities you are unquestionably my hero. Still my real point was just if you cannot return to the dojo or gym don't give up. I know so many people who were intense and just quit. Maybe you cannot train like you used to but that doesn't mean you cannot train.

Respectfully,
Len McCoy

[Nick L.]

Rasputin, different people react differently to cold. Back in 85 I had my reactions to cold put to an extreme test at Bridgeport, CA by the Marine Corps. It was a month living outside in the cold. I faired as well as anyone and better than some in my Battalion. Growing up in drafty old farm house in PA and having chores to do all season didn't hurt. Still cold reduces everyone's efficiency. I definitely would not have started dousing in the winter but honestly after the water hits you, you start feeling warm and relaxed. I also wouldn't do it while out camping when you cannot get back inside in a couple of minutes.


First, I am Nick L. not Rasputin.
Rasputin is a large half Sicilian mammal with bionic body parts that inflicts pain on me three times a week, we look nothing alike, duh! :p He is also known as Dave, but anyway.

I went to Bridgeport also (twice), it was terrible and I will never go back there unless they are conducting a free Systema / Ballistic Striking seminar that includes airfare, food and a heated hotel room in the free price.

[Jeff Burger]

Still my real point was just if you cannot return to the dojo or gym don't give up. I know so many people who were intense and just quit. Maybe you cannot train like you used to but that doesn't mean you cannot train.


Yeah I got that, had absolutely NOTHING to do with a view point of Systema.

I'm not sure what you think my social and civic responsibilities are. I try to keep life simple. I pay my taxes, I know how to display the flag and try to be respectful to others (or at least try not to be too much of a deuche bag to anyone who doesn't deserve it).

[Rasputin]

First, I am Nick L. not Rasputin.
Rasputin is a large half Sicilian mammal with bionic body parts that inflicts pain on me three times a week, we look nothing alike, duh! :p He is also known as Dave, but anyway.

Our chins (or lack thereof) are very similar.

[Jeff Burger]

Since when have David's bionics been public knowledge?

Figures Obama is in office less than a week and national secrets are leaked all over the internet.

[len mccoy]

Very sorry Nick. On the way home I thought maybe Rasputin was just the name for the quote. I typed my last post in a hurry at the library while my wife was doing volunteer work there. I always wondered if Brigeport would be more fun in the summer for the climbing program as opposed to the winter endure unpleasant conditions program. I think you would agree there is a range of ways people react to cold. Our weapons platoon commander was from Southern California and had never seen snow. Needless to say it was very rough for him. I was only on active duty for 3 years so I never made it back to Bridgeport (not that I really wanted to). Now Okinawa, there is a place I'd like to see again.
Respectfully,
Len McCoy

[len mccoy]

Jeff,
Also sorry I didn't mean to infer anything negative about you. To be doing what your doing you have organized your life in a way few people have. Meant it as a complement. (Will stay off net for a while until I have time to write more clearly). The only point I was trying to make in relation to Systema is from the top levels they feel to paraphrase a nice saying they have a good apple and if you are only willing or can accept any part of it that is good. Taking the whole apple is even better. I think you would agree that a lot of martial arts are very set against self-training or self-study and although systema may not be unique in this respect it is certainly in the minority. Think I will call it quits before I say something else I have to appologize for.
Respectfully,
Len McCoy

[Nick L.]

Since when have David's bionics been public knowledge?

Figures Obama is in office less than a week and national secrets are leaked all over the internet.

OoH Poo, now the secrets out, I guess we will have to go ahead and release the Rasputinator on the Gitmo detainees before they stray too far off the radar.

Was I suppose to post that or was that a secret to? I can't remember, too many SYSTEMA strikes to the head.

[DragonMind]

OoH Poo, now the secrets out, I guess we will have to go ahead and release the Rasputinator on the Gitmo detainees before they stray too far off the radar.Just douse them in melted butter and Dave will take care of the rest.

[Rasputin]

Just douse them in melted butter and Dave will take care of the rest.

I love Asian. :cutup::stirthepot:

[Nick L.]

Any who, I received the Ballistic striking DVD's by Val R.. So far, I have only watched the first one and I have tried throwing some 15lb sledge hammer B's at various still targets. I think the concept is getting through my thick skull, pretty interesting stuff. My only complaint is that he talks too much, less yackin more smackin. Of course I probably wouldn't tell him that. I am still trying to talk Dave into standing still for me, to see if I can make him throw up. :puke:

[Jay Bell]

Any who, I received the Ballistic striking DVD's by Val R.. So far, I have only watched the first one and I have tried throwing some 15lb sledge hammer B's at various still targets. I think the concept is getting through my thick skull, pretty interesting stuff. My only complaint is that he talks too much, less yackin more smackin. Of course I probably wouldn't tell him that. I am still trying to talk Dave into standing still for me, to see if I can make him throw up. :puke:

Just be extra mindful of the wrist alignment. Especially with the obscure angles, it takes some practice...and going full steam into a target can result in a very bad day.

[Nick L.]

Just be extra mindful of the wrist alignment. Especially with the obscure angles, it takes some practice...and going full steam into a target can result in a very bad day.

Yes, I have found that out. Luckily, I have pretty durable wrist, thanks to Dave and Robert.

Watching Val R. it seems that the directional aim of the strike at the end of the swing is very important. I am trying to explain how he redirects his fist at the very end, if that makes any sense?

[Jay Bell]

Think of that more of a way to end the strike up where you want it to be. It can be targeting like the liver, or you can be applying that ending direction to position the person where you'd like to them to be (ie...turning them, etc).

[rgoad]

Just saw some of this thread. Have zero experience with Systema, but if the key is relaxation, then I'd say it has a strong chance of working. I saw Eric Lee strike a guy like the first hammerfist in the video Jeff B posted and the dude had to take a bowel movement NOW. The first time I knocked a guy out I trying NOT to and thought I would just wiff the side of his head. Lights out for a while. I should relax more.

[Jeff Burger]

Nick it has been awhile, did you get anything out of the videos?

I do not think they are enough.

Its a very odd thing...so natural...so unatural if you have had any training.



So the guy in that video is here visiting for a week and I set up a private everday and a little seminar for my Muay Thai guys with him. One of my Muay Thai guys who saw the video asked if he coudl get a Punchie Mc Puncherson autograph and I said yes...didnt tell him it would be on his spleen.:up:

[Nick L.]

Nick it has been awhile, did you get anything out of the videos?

I do not think they are enough.

Its a very odd thing...so natural...so unatural if you have had any training.



So the guy in that video is here visiting for a week and I set up a private everday and a little seminar for my Muay Thai guys with him. One of my Muay Thai guys who saw the video asked if he coudl get a Punchie Mc Puncherson autograph and I said yes...didnt tell him it would be on his spleen.:up:

Did he throw up? If so, please tell us that you got it on video! :laugh:

Yes I have watched the DVD's twice now and I have tried the best I can to actually apply it. I agree that it is not enough, but what video is? I definitely understand more about it than before watching the videos. It is kind of like throwing precise haymakers, if that makes any sense. I would love to have a live class but there is nothing around here, so I will do the best I can and try to incorporate the technique into my jujutsu. I can see it working well with what has been taught in our classes, for me at least. When side stepping or blending into a body movement, the natural motion is there to drop the 15lb sledge hammers. If I can get it right, it should only take one punch, then break his wrist while he throws up. :D

[Jeff Burger]

The seminar is not until this Friday, Ill bring a video camera in case we get a volunteer to..."taste it."

[Nick L.]

Sweet!, take them out for breakfast / lunch before the seminar, He He... :up:

Dave still won't hold still for me, I guess he doesn't want to waste all that rich fatty meat he eats.

[Jeff Burger]

A scarf and barf martial arts style.

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Here is a little Youtube clip of a friend and classmate of mine giving a non believer a taste of Systema striking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grSPNc7o0Do

This is a shameful display of what Systema is not. The excessive ego displayed by the striker and camera man is not Systema. The lack of attention toward and understanding of the person being struck is not Systema. The striker displays no understanding of the purpose of the Systema training he is demonstrating. If he had the clip would have looked very different and the outcomes would have been much different.

I could go on but what's the point. This video is a shameful display of Systema striking. Unfortunately many new people to Systema that learn a little something something let their egos lead them into posting for the world to see. This is often sad as it reflects on everyone else in the Systema community.

A disappointed,

Mark J.

PS. From a technical point the striker's strikes are too large, he breaks his form and his ability to put his full weight into the strike is minimal. IMO, leave the videos to those that know what they are doing, just train.

[Jeff Burger]

Where to start?

The striker is not a newbie, he has been training for over a decade.

The other guy ASKED to get hit, specifically wanted to know if he could be made to puke.

It was not a demo of how hard he cant hit, he can hit alot hard.

Nobody was ever given pain in any of our classes unless they asked to feel it.

There are plenty of videos out there of people submitting themselves to feel and demo Systema strikes. I see no reason for soap boxing about this video, it is just another demo.

[Mark Jakabcsin]

The other guy ASKED to get hit, specifically wanted to know if he could be made to puke.



A good part of Systema is learning to SEE! Forget what a person says, SEE what they are saying, it is far more likely to be honest. Watch the video and you can see the person being struck is sending a very clear message, one very easy to pick up and understand. If the striker has 10 good years of training in Systema he should have seen this and deliveried a strike that was approprate to the individual, REGARDLESS of what the person was saying.

Now watch the video and SEE what the striker is saying. He to is sending a very clear message. Watch his eyes, what is he looking at? Look at his body, what is it telling you? It is telling me the striker is totally involved in himself, his own preparation to strike, without any concern or awareness of the person he is working on. That is not Systema. Not to say I haven't been guilty of that many times myself, I have, fortunately I did not find the need to video it and place it on the net. Just because others place poor videos on the net doesn't mean it's right or we should all run out and do the same.

As for soap boxing about the video, you placed it in this thread and were happy when the comments were to your liking, please do not get snitty when there is a different view point expressed.

Following is a story to help the reader better understand my point. Awhile back I was attending a seminar and Saturday evening a group of us were having snacks and drinking some wine with Vladimir in the hotel room before the Saturday evening banquet. One of the attendees at the seminar (not in the room with the small group) is a tough guy, call him Mr. X. I do not mean that in a negative way, the guy is tough, he has been around and is a long time boxer amoung other arts. He is also an avid weight lifter and built like a small bulldozer. Anyway, at one point the topic of striking came up and Vlad commented that Mr. X sought Vladimir out to feel his strikes. Vlad told us it was very difficult because Mr. X, while a tough guy, was so full of fear and tension that he could only tap him otherwise he could do real damage, not just physical either. Vladimir explained that Mr. X was pushing him to hit harder and harder but Vlad simply shrugged and struck him to the level he could handle but no more as it would be unhealthy for Mr. X and for Vladimir to do more. (Big difference from the video in question.)

I pointed out to Vladimir that if he did not strike Mr. X deeply Mr. X was likely to talk trash later or perhaps not see the value in what Vladimir had to offer. Vladimir shrugged and said that I was quite possibly right but if he strike him and destroyed him then Mr. X would also say negative things about how Vladimir took advantage of him, broke him when it was not needed, etc. Vlad told me to work to my partners level and perhaps a tiny bit past to challenget them. He cautioned me that when we work (read that as train) with the intent to prove how effective we are or how effective Systema is we are building our egos which makes us weak and fragile. In the end people will either see the value of the training or not but proving the value by striking way beyond the person's ability is not going to bring people to the art or improve the striker.

Just some things to consider when you watch your video.

Mark J.

[Jeff Burger]

Ill admit there was some boyishness in that clip but it was all in fun.

Yes the guy looked scared and he was because he had taken a few lighter hits earlier.

V.V. definately took the higher moral ground in that story and Im glad that he did.

[Nick L.]

Mark,

How long have you been studying systema? Do you have any training suggestions (media) or comments on Ballistic Striking?

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Mark,

How long have you been studying systema? Do you have any training suggestions (media) or comments on Ballistic Striking?

Nick,
I have been an instructor since 2004. I was exposed to Systema and Vladimir in 2000 or 2001, I cannot recall. I travel a good deal for a living and these things are hard to remember.

I make the effort to train with Vladimir 5 or 6 times a year and wish it was much more. Fortunately my travel allows me to train with many of the instructors in the USA during the course of each year. Since everyone has their own take and understanding I have found this to be of a great benefit to my own training.

IMO, the best thing I have to offer is the learning from my personal mistakes and misunderstandings. I am of average natural ability but my desire to improve and the opportunity to train with many great people have been a tremendous benefit to me. Perhaps the reason I have such strong feelings about the video is I see some of my own mistakes and misunderstandings.

Several years ago after a class in Toronto Vladimir called me aside to work on my striking. He had some of his students line up and he and I started striking them. When one was done he thanked them and had the next step forward. I am forever thankful to Vladimir and his students for this amazing training opportunity.

Vladimir worked on many specifics with me that night and made many suggestions that I have been working on ever since. However when I let the details fall aside the single most profound thing he taught me is also the most embarrassing.

I believe we were still on the first uke, perhaps the second, when Vlad stopped me by saying something like, "Mark, Mark, Mark, look at your training partner. See him. He is not a punching bag, he does not have Everlast printed on his chest. Look at him and SEE who he is and what affect each of your strikes is making." Much to my personal shame, I was treating each of these training partners as a punching bag and not a human. I was so focused on the details of what I THOUGHT I had to do physically I was totally ignoring my training partner.

For those of you with video of Vladimir or Mikhail striking someone for training see what they are seeing. Where are their eyes focused? Are they looking at the place they are striking or at the person's face/eyes......and then seeing the body as a whole? Shamefully I was striking a bag, not a person, my eyes were on the point of contact to the exclusion of everything else. Thank you Vladimir for making me see the person and sorry to those that I treated as a bag.

The interesting thing about seeing people instead of a bag is my strikes became much more effective. The more I see someone the easier it is to strike with deep effect....with less powerful strikes. Likewise I see the affects more and adjust accordingly. I am just barely breaking the surface on this but I am starting to understand some of the things I have felt from Vladimir and Mikhail.

While during a trip to Russia in 2004 Mikhail punched me in the throat hard enough to lift my entire body off the ground. Everything slowed down as I fell to the ground and I remember think I was certainly going to the hospital. I hit the ground and waited for the pain to come from the damage to my throat........I waited.....then looked up at a smiling Mikhail. The twinkle in his eye and the boyish grin told me he KNEW what I was thinking and thought it was funny. I was fine. How I do not know, the force was great, the impact point is weak but I had not pain let alone any damage.

We continued the demo and a few minutes later one of his strikes grazed my abdomen. I remember very clearly thinking "Thank you for barely touching m......(I was on the ground in intense pain and unable to complete the thought.) He had barely touched me, the strike did not even move me and yet the pain was such that it felt like every organ (or at least two or three) had burst. When I finally got ahold of myself I looked up from the floor and saw the same boyish grin on Mikhail's face. He KNEW what I was thinking. "How the FXXK did you do that by barely touching me?" I cannot say for sure but I am starting to get a tiny glimpse in that direction. Maybe I will never understand but I sure intend to enjoy the effort.

Take care,

Mark J.