View Full Version : Major Outside Reap Throw Counter?
hollon1usmc
01-25-2009, 07:53
Anyone have a good counter for the Major Outside Reap Throw? We learned it in the Brown Belt course I am currently taking for MCMAP and everyone keeps attempting to use it while we are sparing but I want to counter it with technique. It is not hard for me to just stay back from my opponet when we end up in a clinch type hold because of my size being that I am 6'4" 240 and the rest of the class is under 5'10" 195. Do not think I am picking on little guys that is just the way it happened. I find that I can eventually just overpower them and get the advantage but I am looking for more of a technique so that when I may face say "Ivan Draco" I am not the one to get over powered!
sooner_sadiq
01-25-2009, 09:15
I tihnk the counter should be the same throw against them. It will just be whomever breaks the others balance. But im not judoka so take it for what its worth.
The counter to major outside reap throw is major outside reap throw (O Soto Gari) in Japanese, since you are bigger and stronger it should be easy. You just have to not give up you balance and take theirs when they are one one foot then voila' reap the leg.
It's so easy little girls can do it. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzf4YF1UCbY
hollon1usmc
01-25-2009, 09:32
Is that it? Just doing the reap throw before the opponent does? Remember I am not going for any type of points and this is not a competition even if someone has some bizarre maneuver they think might be achievable from the clinch before the reap throw is even attempted please let me know! When they go for the reap I have stepped back and swept their other leg while they are off balanced but this still seems like I am using muscule to accomplish what technique should.
{ my connectionion whacked out Double post}
Is that it? Just doing the reap throw before the opponent does? Remember I am not going for any type of points and this is not a competition even if someone has some bizarre maneuver they think might be achievable from the clinch before the reap throw is even attempted please let me know! When they go for the reap I have stepped back and swept their other leg while they are off balanced but this still seems like I am using muscule to accomplish what technique should.
No there are 2 ways to counter O Soto with O Soto.
1) Beat'em to the punch.
2) Use what I call the pendulum leg.
If the person trying the osotogari does not break your posture, he is just setting himself up for the technique as your counter. If he does go after your posture but you can get some separation at the hip you can counter with Harai Goshi.
What can happen is the guy comes in hard and sort of bumps your hips. You can take advantage of the rebound to get a gap, your leg that is outside the throw might skip back a bit. Then you use your leg closest to the guy to lift his hip as you turn his shoulders. Think like you are hiking up a heavy ruck with your thigh to sling it onto one shoulder, but instead you turn your upper body and toss it to the ground while the hiking leg stays off the ground. This is a really good counter to osoto gari for use by someone with your height advantage because the attacker's feet loose traction pretty quick as they go up and over.
The key, as with all this stuff, is to get his balance coming toward you and across your chest. He gives you a bit of that with his attack. You have you redirect it across your chest and turn to essentially trip him over your thigh. It's like a high tai otoshi, but the tripping leg is off the ground.
Now I know what they mean by Dog Teams.
No there are 2 ways.
1) Beat'em two the punch like you are talking about.
2) Use what I call the pendulum leg.
Are you saying when they reap your leg to let it go with theirs and them get em on the back swing?
I have found that after they come in, if they have not broken your balance you can turn the outside and reap through both legs with what Ed is calling the Pendulum leg. It is hard to remain upright though, for me at least.
( I guess what I just posted would qualify the same as Harai Goshi, like Richard posted)
Are you saying when they reap your leg to let it go with theirs and them get em on the back swing?
I have found that after they come in, if they have not broken your balance you can turn the outside and reap through both legs with what Ed is calling the Pendulum leg. It is hard to remain upright though, for me at least.
( I guess what I just posted would qualify the same as Harai Goshi, like Richard posted)
Yes. That is it. I am not as good at it as my teacher was.
How 'I' handle O Soto is to try it control and stuff his entries. If my opponent wins the battle for kuzushi I am screwed any way. My counters that usually come off his failed O soto attempts are 1) Tai Otoshi and 2 ) Harai Makikomi.
But that is just me and Judo. I don't know anything about this USMC killer stuff.
My counters that usually come off his failed O soto attempts are 1) Tai Otoshi and 2 ) Harai Makikomi.
Now were talkin', Makikomi. But if Nicholas was to pull that off, he would probably kill the other Devil Dog.
Now were talkin', Makikomi. But if Nicholas was to pull that off, he would probably kill the other Devil Dog.
Shoulda though of that before he grabbed him. :up:
hollon1usmc
01-25-2009, 10:55
I do not think I am going for the kill aspect just yet but in the highly unlikely chance that I would use this against the enemy then his bad for grabbing my rather large self and he deserves what he gets! Remember Highly unlikely chance because I will use my E-tool if thats all I got before it gets to H2H.
Thanks for all of the input so far....
You guys are putting out some good stuff, but how about thinking outside the box now and then? Quit thinking like a seaman; think like a Marine! :D
Go with the throw; slap a jujigatame (cross-body armlock) on him. He gets to throw you, you get to break his arm. Seems like a good trade to me. (Think "flying arm bar" in the BJJ sense. I will describe it if need be. It is a brilliant "counter" to o-sotogari.)
Jeff Cook
You guys are putting out some good stuff, but how about thinking outside the box now and then? Quit thinking like a seaman; think like a Marine! :D
Go with the throw; slap a jujigatame (cross-body armlock) on him. He gets to throw you, you get to break his arm. Seems like a good trade to me. (Think "flying arm bar" in the BJJ sense. I will describe it if need be. It is a brilliant "counter" to o-sotogari.)
Jeff Cook
I can't see it. Maybe it is just the weird way I do O-Soto Gari. When I do O-Soto I put the forearm of the arm gripping the lapel into my opponents sternum and I drive it through chest down to the mat. If I do it right I am on top giving no space.
I TRY to have body to body contact through the throw cause reaching gets me killed but I suck so I make mistakes all the time.
If you know he is going to attack with O-Soto-Gari, wait for it, stay upright and balanced. As they move in (if they are reaping your right leg), stay planted on your right leg and pivot on it backwards as they move in. They will crash to the ground.
Peace
Dennis
I can't see it. Maybe it is just the way I do O-Soto Gari and I am not normal. When I do O-Soto the but the forearm of the arm gripping the lapel into my opponents sternum and I drive it to the mat. If I do it right I am on top giving no space.
I TRY to have body to body contact through the throw cause reaching gets me killed but I suck so I make mistakes all the time.
Me, too. If I understand Jeff's counter he has to have a HUGE gap to get the knee between you. If the Osoto Gari is entered correctly tori's shoulder AND my hip are past his hip. If he gets too clingy I can land on top of him.
I like what Jeff wrote. Cool!
Anyone have any luck coming around the sweeping side (say our L and his R), clamping the arms around the waist, planting the (L) foot behind his (L) foot, and rolling to the (L), landing together but riding the roll to the top?
I'm sure there is a Japanese and an English name for this one. I seem to have reasonably good luck with it pretty reliably. I wish I understood it a bit better.
Tony Dismukes
01-25-2009, 14:35
I've never been able to work the juji-gatame counter to a properly done osoto-gari for the reason Ed outlines - tori should not be giving up that much space.
I have been shown a similar setup for the armbar which might be more likely to work. Tori fakes an off-balance osoto attempt from too far away, baiting uke to take the obvious counter-sweep. When uke does so, tori falls back for the armbar. As tori falls back for the armbar, he brings the shin of the leg which was attempting the fake osoto between the two bodies, so as to prevent uke from closing down the space and just taking side-control.
Using this setup lures uke into using osoto without that close body contact.
As far as a typical osoto counter, I like the pivot that Dennis mentions.
That's like a duck under in wrestling? There is a Judo throw, Maybe Ushiro wakare (that's a name guess) that does the same thing.
Again, the idea is to have control of the shoulders and thereby the tori body. His chest and shoulder is plastered to your chest like a bug on a windshield and you are over balancing him to his rear corner. If you set that part up right the reap is just extra.
If the guy has, like lots of people do, gotten his hips too far in front of his chest, then you can do like Dennis said and 'root' and get his reversal. Instead of him getting a duck under, you end up getting him with an irimi nage.
To get the arm bar he either has to bring his knee into your armpit/lat or around to your chest very early in the entry. Either way he was not committed to the osoto gari and we are talking about a different technique altogether.
Not sure if this is going to come out right, but here goes.
You put your front arm across their neck, elbow side to the neck, then your other arm, grabs behind the knee. Then push with your front arm and lift with your back arm.
Ah, here you go. 45 seconds in
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HnNx6hDSmP8&feature=related
Hah! Well gents, if you do ANY throw PERFECTLY, you cannot counter it with ANYTHING you all are mentioning.
Pulling off a counter requires some skill and timing, regardless of the counter. Instead of trying to think of why the jujigatame counter cannot work, think of ways to make it work, just like you think of ways to make all of the other counters work. Because guess what fellas, it does work. It is used fairly often by some skilled guys. Steve Hall and Charles Dos Anjos are two of those guys. Hell, I am not very skilled at all, and even I have made it work.
Like I said, think outside of the box.
Jeff Cook
Not sure if this is going to come out right, but here goes.
You put your front arm across their neck, elbow side to the neck, then your other arm, grabs behind the knee. Then push with your front arm and lift with your back arm.
Sounds like Ohyo Gumite #10 or so. That is even greater hip gap. That's not a bad counter, but takes a lot of set up. If the guy is showing me his iver that much I'd pop it.
I think it's not a "Rock, Paper, Scissors" situation where you dial in the correct counter. It has to be a set up.
Essentially you have to be able to spot the guy's attack early enough you can jam it or see a flaw or create a flaw that gives you an opening. The place to start is with common errors. I'm thinking most people don't bring in the hip and gain control of the other person (kuzushi). There is a one guy on this board who is lying in wait to remind me how bad my kuzishi sucks. That's why I am so sensitive to it! :o
Oh, there were two posts on the next page that say the same thing, pretty much. :mad: :o
Ah, here you go. 45 seconds in
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HnNx6hDSmP8&feature=related
Breath Throw (Kokyu Nage), I could see that if your arm on the side he is trying to reap is free. In MCMAP, O Soto Gari is taught with a strike to the sternum. So I think Jeff's flying armbar would work, :rolleyes: BJJ Guys, geez. If he has a knife though, a flying triangle is correct according to Cliff.
Since this throw - O soto gari - is one of the most frequent on our Jujutsu Mix Kumite tournaments (all kids and adults attempt to throw their opponents with it), it came to our attention that TANI OTOSHI is also another great counter - when O soto gari vs. O soto gari does not work. Just go behind him, put your free leg behind his standing leg and ley down.
Another extremely easy solution - Soto maki komi variant with your right armpit pressing over his right shoulder and biceps...
The easiest of all - Kibisu Gaeshi.
Tani Otoshi was the one I couldn't think of. Thanks. The other suggestions seem way out of position to counter to a reasonably competent osoto gari.
Tani Otoshi was the one I couldn't think of. Thanks. The other suggestions seem way out of position to counter to a reasonably competent osoto gari.
Wouldn't Tani O Toshi be kinda hard to pull off from the opposite side? My limited experience says that Tani O works best against your opponent turning into you and keeping the momentum going to their back, like hip throws or O Uchi Gari. Isn't that the main difference between Tani O and Tai O Toshi?
Here is our dojo's Tani O Toshi Queen, This what you are talking about, correct?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkPO2BDvHQ8
I wouldn't use it but you guys know more about this Judo stuff than I do.
Tani Otoshi as I know it would require me to do a 180 degree hip change. Tani Otoshi is best worked when you break hip hips forward. That is why it works so good as a counter to throws when he turns into you. If my opponent re-establishes his hips then the window for my throw would be gone. That would happen on my hip change.
I do not see it as a simple sac when you catch him moving backwards. Not like like reverse Uki Waza.
I don't think I could pull it off but I'm just not that good. But Fedor could do it.
Yeah, that's it. I suck at this and sometimes that is an advantage.
Jeff was saying to get a flying arm bar on him. That, or a yoko garuma, or yoko wakare if you're clumsy enough. If he gets past your hip you can hold on, swing your outside leg around to his opposite leg and sit back.
The short girl was tentative about getting her hip in and never seemed to control the shoulders. No kuzushi. So when she turned her back she was toast.
If a guy has your shoulders you are rapidly running out of options. Check this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyUFSjyvfYk)and see how the uke's inside arm is forced down toward the impact point and his other arm is also controlled in a big steering wheel movement. It forces uke's shoulders over , his weight, and his structure. That's going to be hard to beat.
So essentially you gotta think out of the box, like Jeffe says, but you have to either spot the error or generate it.
hollon1usmc
01-25-2009, 21:00
I am on duty right now until class at 0700 and of course the dictatorship that is the government does not allow Youtube to be viewed from their computers but I will look at all of the videos when I get home after class. I also remember on Friday I went for the reap during one round and completely missed my opponents leg but he ended up giving me his back when he tried to go for a shoulder throw so of course I went immediately for the rear choke while he was trying to pull me over his shoulder down to the ground with the figure 4 variation. I have also heard it refered to as a rear naked choke. His bad for trying to shoulder throw over 200 lbs when there was no momentum in that direction!:laugh:
I would say that was O Soto Gake since he gripped Gracies' leg with his leg bent and then drove through it to the ground. Just another variation of the counter to O Soto is O Soto.
Guys, it's not *really* a flying armbar; I said to consider the flying armbar to help understand the entry. You see/feel the throw coming, you go with the throw, over-throwing yourself PAST what your partner wants to do with kuzushi, which makes space for you to drop straight back, bring your inside knee straight up. You are hanging tightly to your partner's arm across/on your chest, so when you drop back you have control of the arm to lock.
Of course, if it is a PERFECT throw none of these counters in this thread will work. But as Richard said, you play the hand you are dealt, and you work with what you have. You make your openings.
Good thread. Ed, quit it with the false humility. Everybody here knows you are a badass old man who everyone has the ultimate respect for.
Jeff Cook
Only his hair is fake.
Both of my hairs are fake.
You guys realize I do not have dan paper in Judo. Highest I got was 3rd brown. My last Judo class was 2001 and I haven't trained consistently in Judo since 1993.
Both of my hairs are fake.
You guys realize I do not have dan paper in Judo. Highest I got was 3rd brown. My last Judo class was 2001 and I haven't trained consistently in Judo since 1993.
Man, It must be hard taking those falls after age 60!
That is why I do Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. :D
Both of my hairs are fake.
You guys realize I do not have dan paper in Judo. Highest I got was 3rd brown. My last Judo class was 2001 and I haven't trained consistently in Judo since 1993.
I don't care Ed. You know what you are talking about, fake hairs or not. ;)
Jeff Cook
Wasabi Rocks
01-27-2009, 14:23
best counter is not to get into that situation to begin with...
however, the other counter to that throw...THAT THROW.
when your opponent goes in for the leg sweep, take a BIG step backwards with your opposite leg. You have then regained your balance, and there is no leverage for your opponent to throw you with that throw... then you throw him using that technique.
there you go...13 years of judo summed up in 2 minutes.
good luck!
hollon1usmc
02-01-2009, 13:52
I have tried a couple of different things with this since reading all of your responses. It seems that I am lucky that I am bigger then most of the people I was sparring with! Also I figured that a good counter is the horizontal elbow then shoot both legs I understand there is no striking allowed in BJJ but remember this is MCMAP I am talking about here! Also the other thing that worked rather well was kind of like a head crank take down of course the body will follow the head on its way to the ground! Thanks for all of the advice!
No striking allowed in BJJ? Where did you come up with that? Many BJJ studios incorporate striking/self-defense training, and plenty of vale tudo too.
Jeff Cook
hollon1usmc
02-02-2009, 18:37
So wait a minute striking is allowed? I know they were talking about striking when it came to self defense but when I palm struck a guy in the ribs for the MCMAP counter to the mount they said it was not allowed. Let alone the fact that the guy I struck was surprised as all hell! I will get more clarification as to what they meant next class I go to.
Hey brother, I am not a Marine, I am a Soldier. I am not sure what the MCMAP rules of engagement are when you are working out. I would say though that since it is a combative system, there are certain circumstances when striking is allowed. ;)
When doing the typical "rolling" in BJJ class, you are right - striking is not allowed. But when "rolling" under vale tudo rules in the BJJ class, "anything goes" as the Portuguese term indicates.
Jeff Cook
Just Found this in the CLASSIFIED version of the MCMAP TO:
When the attacker attempts an Outside Reap, allow him to enter and when he places his head close to yours grasp his ear firmly between your teeth and hold on.
Also, I can tell you why they told him strikes were'nt allowed. Look at his size. I'd tell him that, too, until I could figure him out!;)
hollon1usmc
02-04-2009, 17:38
When the attacker attempts an Outside Reap, allow him to enter and when he places his head close to yours grasp his ear firmly between your teeth and hold on.
Sorry but I am sure my fellow Marines would appreciate me not going all Mike Tyson on them!
Oh yeah in MCMAP we strike (50% power green belt and above)it is actually a bad thing if you do not because your opponet sure will and well your eating leather!:D: When I was taking the green belt course a few months back I ended up in the instructors guard and the next thing I know he is dropping heels all into my lower back, sure makes you want to pass rather quickly!
Now back to BJJ when I was in class I am sure that we were not in "anything goes" mode. I talked to the Instructor he said that when he is refering to rolling there should be no striking of course sometimes accidents happen.
Of course I have been trained to shoot first ask questions later so I translated it as strike first and then ask questions while the other guy is bleeding!;)
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