View Full Version : Grappling against multiple attackers?
I have a question. I've studied martial arts for many years, in addition to actually be a practicing martial artist for about 5 years. The style I was taught was a mix of many arts, but with a strong emphasis on grappling. But there's something about the grappling techniques that always confused me. It seamed to me that all of the techniques were aimed just for when you may encounter a single person as a threat. I could never picture using grappling techniques against multiple attackers. It seemed you just spend to much time on 1 person. Am I missing something here? Thanks in advance.
Wasabi Rocks
03-24-2009, 10:40
if there are multiple attackers, try and play them off against each other. I recommend using one attacker to 'slow up' the second. ie: if grappling, go in for a nice hip throw (or whatever suits you best) and have the one land in front of or on the second person. Or deal with the biggest perceived threat first...
you can train for this, but I would recommend at an advanced level.
sooner_sadiq
03-24-2009, 14:26
Let me caveat this by saying I think you guys are referenning to the more traditional styles of grappling (Japanese, wrestling, etc). Please keep in mind that there are many grappling systems that can work well with multiple opponents. Too often people associate grappling with submission grappling etc. Do more research and you will find a ton of systems that deal with this problems such as those from India, Indonesia, etc. Where the mindset it ground combat instead of "submission" grappling.
Webmaster
03-24-2009, 15:25
Let me caveat this by saying I think you guys are referenning to the more traditional styles of grappling (Japanese, wrestling, etc). Please keep in mind that there are many grappling systems that can work well with multiple opponents. Too often people associate grappling with submission grappling etc. Do more research and you will find a ton of systems that deal with this problems such as those from India, Indonesia, etc. Where the mindset it ground combat instead of "submission" grappling.
I think that Rob is on to something here. Over time, we have begun to change how we define "grappling". Today, it means rolling around on the floor, as in wrestling and similar activities. On the other hand, grappling in my definition means any sport or combat art which is done at "contact range". In other words, if you are close enough to grab'em, then you are grappling.
One more thing to add - multiple opponents is a really risky game. The possibilities for what could happen go up exponentially.
The only remotely reasonable approaches I have seen (that doesn't mean all of the ideas out there in the world, just what I've come into contact with) are as follows:
- Steer someone into another person to tie up two opponents for a moment (aikido may be good for this)
- Use someone as a shield, either conscious or not (Judo, JJ come to mind, and both cases staying upright, mobile, and not executing a throw)
- Really hurt one of them and ask "who is next?" (Eskrima...)
- Head for the door as fast as possible, maybe using one or both of these techniques (track & field probably helps for this one)
Other than those, I've never seen an MA teach anything practical against multiple opponents who actually mean business.
Brian Dugger
03-25-2009, 13:45
It seemed you just spend to much time on 1 person. Am I missing something here? Thanks in advance.
No, you're not missing "anything/something". Asking the question by its very nature suggest rather you've picked up on "something". Spending too much time on 1 person, maybe . . . eh, I don't know. With multiple attackers, it's still the same principle--just deal with one at a time. Now, what one does with/uses one attacker for . . . Well, that's a matter of "how" which you'll figure out in time with training. If it isn't be addressed in your present class to your satisfaction, be discreet in your pursuit of the answer. Look at other disciplines and see what you can come up with for yourself. Bring that back to class then and see if you can apply ideas or principles you've seen elsewhere.
In Krav Maga you hit the ground ur dead (er so Bas sounds off at me)
I like this, why hit'em with a stick or fist when you can pummel them with the "whole planet".:cool:
I always love the martial arts movies like the Bruce Lee flicks where he takes on more than one opponent at a time. They all wait to see who is next. In the real world with determine people it is very hard indeed and deploying weapons makes the most sense. Rifle, shotgun more sense, handgun less and then blades and weapons of opportunity like a nice ball point pen or whatever else you can grab. If you are 6'4" and you take on three determined 5'2" guys you are going to have your hands full no matter who you are.
I remember reading about a martial arts instructor who was killed by a street gang in LA I believe. Even though this man was a master and had developed power, they just cut him up like a small pack or dogs take down a much bigger pray animal. It's great to train in multiple styles, but don't forget to train with a rifle, a shotgun a handgun and a blade in addition to your other styles. All things can't be solved by the handgun crowd either, but you give yourself more options the broader you train for the street.
If you travel with your family and you are a first Dan in just about any art and three guys approach with blades and you with nothing and you think you are going to protect your family you have the odds against you. It's not like the movies.
In a bar fight with you against one other untrained fellow you will do fine, but that isn't what we are talking about here.
starkjudo
03-25-2009, 15:22
Train with a weapon, whether it's a knife, gun or bazooka, train to defend against them, but expect to be hurt by them, whether the attacker is skilled with it or not. An ignorant 10-year old with a pocket knife can slice you up, no matter your skill level.
Working on some Judo right now. It just depends on what you need. I was planning on a UFC fight earlier this month, with an option to apply as a trainer, but the economy tanked and my money backers are sitting back.
This is interesting. Were you going to fight in the UFC? I see you are listed as an MMA fighter in your profile. I looked up your name on Sherdog but did not see anything listed. What name do you fight under? It is pretty cool to have a potential UFC fighter on the board.
Cliff Hargrave
03-25-2009, 22:06
Your 42 years old, never had an MMA fight before, and you were offered a fight in the UFC? No offense, but that seems a little odd. What's your pro Thai boxing record?
Cliff, why don't you have your boy call his boy and, you know, work the back-angle on it. You know how those backers always need to keep those things hushed, especially when a gang officer's cover might be blown.
Maybe you should let us know what you find out in the private moderator's forum, so we don't compromise his boy when he gets the call. You know how secretive the UFC promoters can be, especially when booking an older, very experienced and advanced player.
Jeff Cook
Good, then you got my point.
I used the same words/terminology in my post that you used in yours Kenneth. If my post comes across sounding odd, you might want to apply your same critical eye to your own posts and adjust accordingly.
Jeff Cook
Cliff Hargrave
03-25-2009, 23:19
Dude, I am not questioning your training, I am questioning the part where you implied you were going to fight in the UFC, but due to some "other" reasons you couldn't.
The UFC is the big time you just don't walk in these days unless you are Brock Lesner. At least he was big, well known, and a legit Division 1 All American wrestler. You might be lucky to get a TUF tryout but that would be a longshot too.
I hate to say it, but I just don't believe you. Maybe you meant a UFC "type" event, as in a smaller MMA show?
North Africa? Tell me more.
Algerians, Moroccans, Tunisians - they are no chumps. Also, many of Europe's best muay thai guys are from the Maghreb originally (including a cousin of my wife's).
Cliff Hargrave
03-26-2009, 07:00
I love the way you heap more vague BS on the story and then try to redirect the topic. Your credibility is completely shot. I doubt anyone will take anything you say seriously from now on.
Tony Dismukes
03-26-2009, 08:59
Kenneth:
1) These days the UFC only hires fighters with a successful pro MMA career and a good highlight reel. The only exceptions would be for fighters who were otherwise famous enough to help the bottom line, hence Brock Lesnar. (Along the same lines, a well-known boxing champion like Roy Jones Jr would probably be considered for a UFC contract if he wanted to move to MMA. Anyone else - forget it.)
2) The UFC does not hire trainers for its fighters. Fighters have their own training camps. The only exception would be for the TUF show, where they hire trainers, such as Ganyao Fairtex, who have a history of successfully training pro fighters.
3) "The talent, especially the coaching has been going down hill for some time." Really? It looks to me like the skill level and athleticism of the average UFC fighter has been steadily climbing for some years now.
4) "I was pretty excited to show what a thai fighter/boxer should look like." The average level of UFC striking is not as high as you would see in a pure striking competition like K1, due to the fact that UFC fighters have to split their training regimen between striking and grappling. Nevertheless, many UFC fighters already train with world-class pro striking coaches. Some UFC fighters manage to have world-class striking skills along with their grappling skills. (See Anderson Silva as an example.) Bottom line, the UFC has already seen top-level muay thai skills.
Now, from what you've told us, you have an 11-0 amateur muay thai fight record, and no MMA fights. There is precisely zero percent chance that the UFC would hire you as a fighter. The only way you would be considered for even a coaching position on TUF would be if you had a large stable of successful pro fighters who trained under you. How many pro fighters do you currently train? Do they fight muay thai or MMA? What are their names and records?
My students are effective and efficient. One of my 6 monthers is undefeated up in Modesto.
Undefeated at what? Where?
I have been offered school partnerships in Choi Kwang Do and guided both my daughters through NAAMA.
Choi Kwan Do is very different from full contact boxing, Muay Thai and grappling. I can't envision the partnership based on the different skills taught, can you elaborate on what the thought process was on that one?
Since you came from the Detroit area, did you have any MMA fighters compete at any of the local events? More importantly, did you take any fighters from Michigan to Ohio and fight there?
Tony Dismukes
03-26-2009, 11:13
Yes, alot of fighters are training better, but they are seeking trainers on their own. The UFC isn't staffing them.
I believe that was my point. Top-notch fighters usually come from top-notch training camps, of which there are quite a few out there. This has pretty much been the situation since the beginning of the UFC.
No one can hoestly say find "a guy willing to hold pads" is a muay thai coach, as was the case of Rampage's coach during the Ultimate Fighter?
I didn't watch season 7 of the Ultimate Fighter (where Rampage was coaching) so I looked it up. Rampage didn't have a muay thai coach for his team - he had a boxing coach, Juanito Ibarra, who does have experience coaching pro boxers. The opposing team did have a muay thay coach - Mark Beecher, a pro fighter.
And if they want to build in house teams on an international level, who is gonna work with 'em?
Who is they? The UFC? The fighters? Right now, the UFC doesn't seem to have any interest in having "in-house teams". If they did, they would have top pro coaches lining up for the job. As for the fighters, they usually will seek out top teams to train with. There are a number of very good gyms/coaches/teams out there who specialize in training MMA fighters for competition at the national and international level.
I'm a little familiar with Choi Kwang Do and their business model. I don't consider it any great thing to be asked to join their flock.
I was wondering if you trained any MMA fighters in Michigan, as I'm in Michigan, possibly I've seen one of their events? Taking fighters to Ohio is a followup to that question, which you didn't answer.
When facing multiple attackers, I would rather rely on one shot grappling moves that will leave them on the ground and you on your feet, you theoretically could give a good head stomp and move on to the next. As for striking with two or more opponents at the same time, that just seems allot harder to me if they attack at the same time, if they each wait their turn then ok, but that is not multiples. At least with grappling you can direct one opponent into another and maybe buy enough time to turn around and run.
MMA ground grappling is no more realistic than a light saber battle. Still it is a very good skill for competing in MMA, not much else. There is absolutely no reason for getting into a ground wrestling match with multiple attackers, IMO. Pick them up and dump them on their head, that seems much better. :D
Tony Dismukes
03-26-2009, 14:35
MMA ground grappling is no more realistic than a light saber battle. Still it is a very good skill for competing in MMA, not much else. There is absolutely no reason for getting into a ground wrestling match with multiple attackers, IMO.
I would certainly never advocate deliberately going to the ground against multiple opponents in a real fight. Even against a single opponent, I would tend to avoid the ground in most self-defense situations. (I could construct scenarios where going to the ground might be necessary, but in general my default preference would be to remain on my feet.)
However, that doesn't mean that ground grappling skills are useless in a self-defense situation. Remember that even if you don't choose to take it to the ground, your opponents might. They wouldn't even have to be skilled wrestlers - one guy could hit you with a football tackle while you're avoiding a punch from his partner. If you don't have the skills to avoid damage, get out from the bottom, and get back to your feet, you could be in big trouble.
Cliff Hargrave
03-26-2009, 15:20
MMA ground grappling is no more realistic than a light saber battle. Still it is a very good skill for competing in MMA, not much else. There is absolutely no reason for getting into a ground wrestling match with multiple attackers, IMO. Pick them up and dump them on their head, that seems much better. :D
What the heck are you smoking? Tony is correct.
As far as slamming people, what happens when you grab one guy and the other one knocks you down? Ground grappling is not limited to long, drawn out chess games. It also involves really neat things like escapes and stuff that let you get back up!
When facing multiple attackers, I would rather rely on one shot grappling moves that will leave them on the ground and you on your feet.
There is absolutely no reason for getting into a ground wrestling match with multiple attackers, IMO. Pick them up and dump them on their head, that seems much better. :D
I think you're referring to hard takedowns, Judo's (a grappling system) specialty.
MMA ground grappling is no more realistic than a light saber battle. Nonsense. I've used my MMA/Submission Wrestling/Judo/BJJ/whatever-you-call-it ground skills in several fights and they (as well as chokes) worked great.
True, there were no weapons and only one opponent involved each time, and I had a partner minding the crowd. That's important.
One thing to add about why going to the ground is risky in a one-on-multiple encounter is that mobility counts a lot and you loose much of it on the floor. Mobility matters because it allows you to move around the group of opponents in such a way that you control (or at least influence) how many of them can reach you at a given moment and thereby reduce "one vs. many" to "one vs. fewer" which is a little bit better for that one guy.
What the heck are you smoking? Tony is correct.
As far as slamming people, what happens when you grab one guy and the other one knocks you down? Ground grappling is not limited to long, drawn out chess games. It also involves really neat things like escapes and stuff that let you get back up!
Well since you are a LEO, I can neither deny or confirm the said smoking of what.
I agree with Tony, you and Erik. The point that I am trying to make is that you don't want to pull guard or hang around trying to pass guard when their are others to worry about. The ability to get up or avoid a takedown goes hand in hand IMO with any grappling system and is it is very important to have the skill set to leastwise know how to keep the fight where you want it. Chokes are good but how long will you spend trying to make the guy unconscious? Five, ten, fifteen seconds? In that time you will get hit ten, forty, eighty times :fear: . In any case, I don't know very many people I would bet money on in a three to one fight but if they go to the ground then they will probably not last very long at all. I think the main ingredient would be a lot of aggression to the point of seeming crazy, keeping off the ground and knowing when to make your exit ala' Carl Lewis Waza.
I've held a guy in a rear-naked (or maybe I was holding cloth? I forget) and used him as a body shield in a very crowded passageway (not all the crowd were hostile) as I pushed the bad guys backwards. I was very, very surprised this worked. It sounds nuts, I know.
Anyway, when I let the guy go, he was out. Time was being really odd then - It could have been 30 seconds but felt like a day. Such is fear and adrenaline, at least in my body.
This was an example of BJJ/Judo/grappling skills being used in an upright position against a group and it actually worked. (Go figure :D)
Well since you are a LEO, I can neither deny or confirm the said smoking of what.
I agree with Tony, you and Erik. The point that I am trying to make is that you don't want to pull guard or hang around trying to pass guard when their are others to worry about. The ability to get up or avoid a takedown goes hand in hand IMO with any grappling system and is it is very important to have the skill set to leastwise know how to keep the fight where you want it. Chokes are good but how long will you spend trying to make the guy unconscious? Five, ten, fifteen seconds? In that time you will get hit ten, forty, eighty times :fear: . In any case, I don't know very many people I would bet money on in a three to one fight but if they go to the ground then they will probably not last very long at all. I think the main ingredient would be a lot of aggression to the point of seeming crazy, keeping off the ground and knowing when to make your exit ala' Carl Lewis Waza.
Probably a good idea, when you KNOW you are discussing this with people who actually have extensive real-life experience with the subject matter, you ASK them about it instead of lecture them about it, and avoid trying to "make a point" with them. ;)
Jeff Cook
Cliff Hargrave
03-26-2009, 20:09
The best technique for multiple opponents is the running back technique. Pretend you are an NFL tailback, look for the gap, lower your head and hit it full speed. Don't stop until you are in the endzone. Sometimes there is not a gap, and you have to go over someone.
I was thinking more like the 110 meter hurdles but I guess it depends on the terrain, huh?
:laugh:
sooner_sadiq
03-26-2009, 21:31
They say if your running away from someone you almost always get caught from behind. How true that is I'm not sure, I like Cliff's idea.
Cliff Hargrave
03-26-2009, 21:52
Most thugs are not going to put much effort into chasing you, unless it's some hit team hired to take you out. :)
I think your chances of success are greater than your chances if you stayed and fought.
Gunyo Kogusoku
03-27-2009, 09:43
Going to the ground in a fight against multiple opponents is foolhardy. The only thing that happens is that you will become the guest of honour at a boot party. You will be stomped, kicked, punched in the back of the head, glassed, stabbed, the lot. When a group "feeding frenzy" is in full flow and you are on the ground, you will be punished severely for allowing yourself to be in that situation. It's rather well documented with the football violence that plagued the UK back in the early 1990's
As for lightsabers. May the force be with you, because noone else will be.
They say if your running away from someone you almost always get caught from behind. How true that is I'm not sure, I like Cliff's idea.
Depends how fast you are and how motivated they are.
Also, keep in mind that "running" is both literal and figurative.
Of course, if I were tough like Cliff :), I'd stay and fight, pulling all the bad guys on top of me so I'm dog piled and then explode up into a heroic kata pose like a comic book character, sending them all flying in random directions.
Then I'd use my buzzard wings to fly up and away... :laugh:
Cliff Hargrave
03-27-2009, 09:57
Going to the ground in a fight against multiple opponents is foolhardy. The only thing that happens is that you will become the guest of honour at a boot party. You will be stomped, kicked, punched in the back of the head, glassed, stabbed, the lot. When a group "feeding frenzy" is in full flow and you are on the ground, you will be punished severely for allowing yourself to be in that situation.
Thanks Mr. Obvious, never heard that one before. :laugh:
Why don't you find one single post anywhere that advocates intentionally going to the ground in a multiple attacker situation. You are arguing a non existent point.
Btw, for all of the BJJ haters, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is full of stand up self defense techniques and all of the Gracies boxed and did judo. Rorion doesn't like to admit it but all of the rest of them will.
Cliff Hargrave
03-27-2009, 09:58
Of course, if I were tough like Cliff :), I'd stay and fight, pulling all the bad guys on top of me so I'm dog piled and then explode up into a heroic kata pose like a comic book character, sending them all flying in random directions.
I just have to "mean mug" them and they flee from my impressive 5'8" build.
Gunyo Kogusoku
03-27-2009, 10:10
Thanks Mr. Obvious, never heard that one before. :laugh:
Why don't you find one single post anywhere that advocates intentionally going to the ground in a multiple attacker situation. You are arguing a non existent point.
Btw, for all of the BJJ haters, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is full of stand up self defense techniques and all of the Gracies boxed and did judo. Rorion doesn't like to admit it but all of the rest of them will.
Sorry for getting involved.
Just adding some things I have seen first hand.
Never mind then.
Cliff Hargrave
03-27-2009, 10:21
Sorry for getting involved.
Just adding some things I have seen first hand.
Never mind then.
Sorry if I offended you, I was just being me for a second there.
STORMCROW34
03-27-2009, 10:48
Thanks Mr. Obvious, never heard that one before. :laugh:
Why don't you find one single post anywhere that advocates intentionally going to the ground in a multiple attacker situation. You are arguing a non existent point.
Btw, for all of the BJJ haters, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is full of stand up self defense techniques and all of the Gracies boxed and did judo. Rorion doesn't like to admit it but all of the rest of them will.
Relson was in town for a seminar recently, and he was very clear that rolling around on the ground in a self defense situation is a very bad idea (if you can help it). And while this may be obvious and common sense, I don't think it hurts anyone for this fact to be repeated. I am sure there are people out there that really just don't know any better and believe that MMA type sport is the be-all, end-all for self defense situations.
I just have to "mean mug" them and they flee from my impressive 5'8" build.
They run even faster from my 5' 8 1/2" build and my goofy laugh....
Just adding some things I have seen first hand.
Then describe more of what you've seen, how the engagements turned out, why you think they did, and let's approach this from an incident-specific debrief angle instead of a philosophical discussion that's trying to fit a one-size-fits-all concept on a myriad of possible cases that may or may not be fully described.
Maybe we could all learn something, too. :D
I've gone to ground in crowds and, though I think it was not the best idea, it worked out a-okay (for me). And grappling includes stand-up, as described above.
Wow, this is like a bad dream recurring over and over again....
Maybe to stop these ridiculous discussions we should implement a rule: any member who advocates purposely going to the ground against multiple opponents needs to be instantly and permanently banned. That way I won't feel the need to gouge my eyes out every single time I read the brilliantly obvious.
Seriously folks, lecturing anyone, let alone experienced fighters and combat professionals, that it is stupid to go to the ground intentionally as a means to best multiple opponents is just as insultingly ridiculous as lecturing people that they should not stare down a firearm and dare the shooter to shoot them, or not jump the shooter from 20 feet away and wrestle the gun away from him/her.
Before anyone gets their feelings hurt because I am being pissy here and in other threads today, I had surgery this week, I am on drugs, and I don't feel like running every word I say through the "civility filter" today. :laugh: Please cut me a little slack this week; I'll go back to being nice next week.
With love,
Jeff Cook
Probably a good idea, when you KNOW you are discussing this with people who actually have extensive real-life experience with the subject matter, you ASK them about it instead of lecture them about it, and avoid trying to "make a point" with them. ;)
Jeff Cook
I know that I am stating my opinion, that is what a discussion forum is for, correct? Don't believe I was lecturing anyone, maybe the thread is just tainted because of the conversation earlier with ACS. I only chimed in to try and get the thread back on track. Hmm, I don't think a forum where I will get my hand slapped for making a point is very inviting, maybe that is why there are so few regular posters?
If your on drugs maybe you should just lay back and watch TV.
Are you trying to take advantage of the old beat-up man on drugs? Shame on you! ;)
Just letting you know what the perception of certain comments can be Nicolas. If that meets your threshhold for "hand-slapping," maybe I should send you some of my pain killers. :D
As a moderator I still have the right to voice my opinion. My opinion is this: it is extremely annoying, and a bit insulting to many, to be told basically "don't put your hand on that hot stove; you will be horribly burned!" Stating the glaringly obvious makes some folks believe you think they are idiots. Especially when you are making unequivocal blanket statements about realistic fighting to a subject-matter expert who has been risking his life and saving the lives of others since you were hanging off of mommy's teat. My attitude about this is very much in line with Cliff's "what are you smoking?" comment when you are telling an MMA/BJJ and law-enforcement expert that a major portion of what he practices for self-defense and defensive tactics is basically crap. That is insulting - especially when you chose not to ask his opinion about it first, and ask him why he feels that way.
I of course absolutely know that was totally not your intent; I'm sure you are a nice guy and a really good student, and I personally value your membership on this forum. You are not the only one who has come across this way lately though. I just chose today to loudly and clearly make my point on this one particular topic. You just happen to be in the impact zone at the moment. Along with ACS, but I'm not so sure he is getting the point yet. ;)
Regarding the insinuation that I am somehow degrading the popularity of this forum by running people off because I am expressing my opinion, all I have to say is this: Budoseek is respected because of the quality of its content, not the quantity.
Jeff Cook
If you're on drugs maybe you should just lay back and watch TV.
Actually, I was thinking of posting dirty jokes in the moderator forum, Jeff. :D
I've got some pictures I can post.....been laying on my back, experimenting with a flashlight and the camera....:laugh:
Jeff Cook
starkjudo
03-27-2009, 13:49
I've got some pictures I can post.....been laying on my back, experimenting with a flashlight and the camera....:laugh:
Jeff Cook
Hey, let's keep this place safe for work :) and eyeballs! :eek:
(in my best Beavus/Butthead imitation) "Heh. Hehheh. Rob said 'balls.'"
Jeff Cook
DragonMind
03-27-2009, 14:17
Maybe to stop these ridiculous discussions we should implement a rule: any member who advocates purposely going to the ground against multiple opponents needs to be instantly and permanently banned. That way I won't feel the need to gouge my eyes out every single time I read the brilliantly obvious.
With love,
Jeff CookAww, send em my way so I can practice my karambit cutting templates...:eek:
Are you trying to take advantage of the old beat-up man on drugs? Shame on you! ;)
Just letting you know what the perception of certain comments can be Nicolas. If that meets your threshhold for "hand-slapping," maybe I should send you some of my pain killers. :D
As a moderator I still have the right to voice my opinion. My opinion is this: it is extremely annoying, and a bit insulting to many, to be told basically "don't put your hand on that hot stove; you will be horribly burned!" Stating the glaringly obvious makes some folks believe you think they are idiots. Especially when you are making unequivocal blanket statements about realistic fighting to a subject-matter expert who has been risking his life and saving the lives of others since you were hanging off of mommy's teat. My attitude about this is very much in line with Cliff's "what are you smoking?" comment when you are telling an MMA/BJJ and law-enforcement expert that a major portion of what he practices for self-defense and defensive tactics is basically crap. That is insulting - especially when you chose not to ask his opinion about it first, and ask him why he feels that way.
I of course absolutely know that was totally not your intent; I'm sure you are a nice guy and a really good student, and I personally value your membership on this forum. You are not the only one who has come across this way lately though. I just chose today to loudly and clearly make my point on this one particular topic. You just happen to be in the impact zone at the moment. Along with ACS, but I'm not so sure he is getting the point yet. ;)
Regarding the insinuation that I am somehow degrading the popularity of this forum by running people off because I am expressing my opinion, all I have to say is this: Budoseek is respected because of the quality of its content, not the quantity.
Jeff Cook
When I read through all of this and try to boil it down with my lack of intellect, since I obviously can't understand half of the words that you used. Here is what I come up with. 1) Cliff was a Police Officer when he was thirteen, and 2) this is really about you thinking that I am bashing BJJ (which I am not) ;)
All in all, I do not mean to disrespect anyone (in this thread :up: ).
I still do not agree with anybody who thinks it is a good idea to spend anytime on the ground when there is a chance of more than one attacker.
Nick, WE ALL AGREE ON THAT!!! Furthermore, reputable BJJ guys don't think it is wise to spend any time on the ground with a SINGLE assailant when it is totally unnecessary. Just want to make that clear; I think you are totally missing the important points I can't seem to make today.
I also do not think you are a BJJ basher. I don't know if anybody else thinks you are either.
Let's not sweat it. If the issue ever comes up again I will try to make my point clearer. Like I said, it wasn't just you.
Jeff Cook
Cliff Hargrave
03-27-2009, 18:49
1) Cliff was a Police Officer when he was thirteen,
No, actually I was 18.
All in all, I do not mean to disrespect anyone (in this thread :up: ).
Me either.
I still do not agree with anybody who thinks it is a good idea to spend anytime on the ground when there is a chance of more than one attacker.
See post #48. Has anyone said that was a good idea?
Train Judo has a move that must be very effective in any situation, as always he makes perfect sense. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE9gCqn8ws8&feature=channel
As for BJJ bashing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYN2EcoqcgQ&feature=channel :laugh:
Cliff Hargrave
03-27-2009, 19:52
Train Judo is an idiot that brags on the underground forum about the drugs he does.
STORMCROW34
03-27-2009, 20:14
I have a question. I've studied martial arts for many years, in addition to actually be a practicing martial artist for about 5 years. The style I was taught was a mix of many arts, but with a strong emphasis on grappling. But there's something about the grappling techniques that always confused me. It seamed to me that all of the techniques were aimed just for when you may encounter a single person as a threat. I could never picture using grappling techniques against multiple attackers. It seemed you just spend to much time on 1 person. Am I missing something here? Thanks in advance.
I don't know if this one of those things that everyone is sick of hearing. And I guess this is stating the obvious, but if I am having a difficult time grappling with one person, what the hell am I doing thinking I can take on a group? So in the end, maybe focusing on grappling with one person does have its merits?
starkjudo
03-27-2009, 21:12
Train Judo has a move that must be very effective in any situation, as always he makes perfect sense. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE9gCqn8ws8&feature=channel
As for BJJ bashing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYN2EcoqcgQ&feature=channel :laugh:
That guy's about as funny as a botched vasectomy.
I guess my sense of humor is quite different than you guys.
Gunyo Kogusoku
03-27-2009, 21:46
Train Judo has a move that must be very effective in any situation, as always he makes perfect sense. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE9gCqn8ws8&feature=channel
As for BJJ bashing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYN2EcoqcgQ&feature=channel :laugh:
Hilarious! :laugh:
That guy's about as funny as a botched vasectomy.
That could be very funny depending on who the patient is... :laugh:
doubleouch
03-29-2009, 20:16
Martial Arts, Politics, and Religion are the 3 topics that people seem to be able to speak with authority on regardless of actual expertise or experience....
Indeed Cane, and only on an internet forum would, for instance, a white or yellow belt with no practical or dojo experience/education, who can barely tie his/her obi, tell an experienced instructor and/or combative professional that what he/she practices and teaches (and may use on the job) is impractical crap - and still not have a clue how that could be seen as being offensive and insulting. That follows along with the folks with less than six months of training who try to lecture the guy with thirty years of training how to throw a punch "correctly," or something equally ridiculous.
I'm wondering what it is about martial arts internet forums that makes people believe we should ignore accepted dojo etiquette, accepted levels of professionalism, and normal every-day courtesy? What is it about these forums that makes people believe that everyone is equal in experience and education?
Hell, we constantly have people challenging Jason, who has a PhD, in his field of expertise - people with barely a high school education who discount his statistics and his studies, AND his degree. All the while offering nothing to refute his data. Go figure. Then of course we have the folks who like to speak/speculate for a person involved in whatever is being discussed, without having any idea what that person thinks or feels about the situation.
Then there's the India Delta Ten Tangos who think we are all so stupid as to buy their outrageous stories about how they are soon to be rich and famous for any number of things, such as fighting in a popular venue, instructing or body-guarding a famous person, etc, in spite of having no reputation, no training, and no command of the English language (that seems to be a popular theme for some of these particular folks).
I'm speaking and venting generically of course; not picking anyone out in particular.
Jeff Cook
Martial Arts, Politics, and Religion are the 3 topics that people seem to be able to speak with authority on regardless of actual expertise or experience....
Cane --- Don't forget about understanding the machinations of the opposite sex. :cool:
Fending off a group of drunk women who've mistaken you for a celebrity is a risk here in L.A. (but not a problem I have fortunately).
STORMCROW34
03-30-2009, 07:34
Indeed Cane, and only on an internet forum would, for instance, a white or yellow belt with no practical or dojo experience/education, who can barely tie his/her obi, tell an experienced instructor and/or combative professional that what he/she practices and teaches (and may use on the job) is impractical crap - and still not have a clue how that could be seen as being offensive and insulting. That follows along with the folks with less than six months of training who try to lecture the guy with thirty years of training how to throw a punch "correctly," or something equally ridiculous.
I'm wondering what it is about martial arts internet forums that makes people believe we should ignore accepted dojo etiquette, accepted levels of professionalism, and normal every-day courtesy? What is it about these forums that makes people believe that everyone is equal in experience and education?
Jeff Cook
That's because here on an internet message board, they (whoever they may be) have the imagined advantage and safety of being geographically removed from whoever it is they are lecturing. As we all know, verbally lecturing and physically demonstrating are two completely different things...Not that I am an expert on internet warriors, it's just an opinion.
Martial Arts, Politics, and Religion are the 3 topics that people seem to be able to speak with authority on regardless of actual expertise or experience....
No kidding, man!!!! :eek::eek::eek:
Martial Arts, Politics, and Religion are the 3 topics that people seem to be able to speak with authority on regardless of actual expertise or experience....
Hey - notice that all three topics have to do with powerlessness vs. power? Or fear vs. security?
Religion - I'm betting my soul on these beliefs and I'm scared they may be incorrect so don't challenge me because it terrifies me.
Politics - by definition (at least in the poli-sci dept), politics is the pursuit of power and power is defined as making someone or something do something it would not do anyway.
MAs - betting my soul on these beliefs in my training that I have the power to make people do something they wouldn't do, anyway, and that said power cannot be exerted upon me.
Michael J. Bray
03-31-2009, 19:16
:bow: Michael, I'm going to simply say this. Trouble and attackers are often predatory and like to have the upper hand advantage. Trouble often comes in numbers. Just a thought...:bow:
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