Problem with letting non-students on the mat

[John Bennett]

I broke this out from the "dojo rules (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=303596#post303596)" thread because it's a different topic.


Out of interest, was your first rule the based on the problem at your club last night?

No. At class Friday night there was an authority problem. Nobody was in full command of the class. Command was shared by me and another guy. I vehemently disagreed with one of his decisions.

At our club, Friday night is like "open mat". We wrestle no-gi under BJJ rules.

A group of white-trash hillbilly young men showed up to watch. They were friends with the other instructor. I didn't know them. (UK version is "hoodies" or "chavs" I think.)

The other instructor invited them onto the mat to "try out" jiu-jitsu. This is actually common practice in BJJ. First class for potential students is free.

Problem was, these weren't really potential students. They were bored knuckleheads goofing around on a Friday night.

I became very alarmed at this situation. It's hugely dangerous. I protested, but the other instructor acted like I was being a dick towards his "friends".

He wanted to let them wrestle the newbie students we were working with! I threw a fit and said "Hell No". Then he wanted to let the hillibillies wrestle each other. Again I said "Hell No".

I considered walking out of the class in getting in my car, but I realized things would be even worse without me there. I compromised and agreed that he and I would wrestle them, but nobody else.

As I expected, the hillbillies went nuts when they got on the mat. They did the thing BJJ noobs usually do. They put you in a death-grip head-lock and thrash around like a fish on hot concrete. If they had done that to one of our new students, they would have broken somebody's neck. They tried on me all the "moves" they'd seen on UFC, jujigatame, kimura, etc.

I choked each of them out. I held each choke long enough for them to become slightly unconscious to ensure they would be disoriented and weak afterward. It worked. None of them wanted back on the mat after one "roll".

I am so pissed off at this guy, but he pays the bills and I don't. He is on the Board of Directors and I'm not. He's been there longer than me, but I have 15 years of instructional experience and he has six months.

My hope is that I can develop a good set of club rules and pay to have them printed on a nice, big sign to hang on the wall. That way, if this situation occurs again, I can point to the rules and say "Dude. We really shouldn't".

Also there are there is the shared command problem. I'll have to do more thinking on that.

[andyb28]

Thanks for sharing John, that does sound like a nightmare, you clearly did the right thing. Imagine if you weren't there!

I would still say that partly comes down to the Ego thing, which is a problem we sometimes have at our club.

[elder999]

One of the places where I train in Denver has a release form for people trying out class-in addition to being a sort of legal release (while no one has actually been hurt trying out a class, I don't know how well it would stand up in court) it outlines the rules and responsibilities of both the regular participants and instructors of the class, and those of the prospective student. In fact, while I don't actually know because I've had relationships with some of them for a long time, every place I train with when I travel may have something of this sort in place, for just this sort of contingency......I'm pretty sure Alberto Crane's place in Santa Fe does, though (I don't train there at all.....).

Now, your "co-instructor" may have been right: under the guidelines that you've established, you were being a dick. That's 'cause the guidelines suck. One person should clearly be in charge at all times, and the other one assists: you can split up into groups, and the other is in charge of their group, but one person should be in control of all activities, informality of "Friday night open mat" regardless. (I have a pretty informal-but allegedly brutal Saturday class. If I'm not in charge, you can sure bet everyone knows who is.)

.....but, no, I wouldn't let people off the street roll with newbies, or each other. And you were right to choke them out.

[Brian R. VanCise]

You see the problem here is the "hillbillys" so to speak have no investment in the training or the people there. They come in and your friend the other instructor says sure have at it and away you go. Well they could care less probably if they hurt some one, etc. Because they do not know anyone or have had any training. It is much better to get people into the flow and allow them to experience the training, get to know people and see how things are run rather than the opposite of "here have at it". The later invariably leads to what happened to you the other night.

Also Elder999 is right on in that one person needs to be in charge. :cool:

[Aaron T Fields]

John,

You were put into a bad spot. Likley the other instructor wanted his buddies to see how "cool" he is. You spotted the issue well before it occured, attempted to keep things under control etc. In the end you choked them out, that is the way it goes.

You did the best you could and in the end a little dose won't hurt them and prevented them from hurting someone else. It seems to me this situation was not only handled in the best manner that was an actual option, but was done in a way that casues no harm.

Our club is known for handling knuckle-heads in a similar manner, after they have gotten spoken with. Sometimes, it is the only way.

In this case, had you been in charge totally, the situation would not have happened.

Club rules are great, but in this case it would have had no effect. I would just add that having more than one coach is no problem, as long as everyone is on the same page. CLub rules go into building club culture, which governs itself. Club culture takes time to develop.

Aaron Fields

[torbjork]

You did the right thing by staying, at any rate.

Looks like I'll have to add one rule to my own club rules; "One guy is in charge, and you'll know who"! Having people "share command" is just an invitation to disaster, unless they're practically siamese twins in terms of experience, outlook and training philosophy. Actually, maybe that might cause even more problems than two people with radically different backgrounds.

Just curious, who decided on the shared authority setup and do you know the reasoning behind it? It just seems an untypical thing to do for MA in general and BJJ in particular...?

[Eliz]

Hi John
You had a potential brewer on your hands....you handled the situation well.

Rules should be kept short, simple and to the point. What you experienced really would fall under the heading of policy. For example: "Free Trials are scheduled based on the availability of an instructor" (or discretion thereof), or "It is not our policy to accept Free Trials on open mat nights" and so forth. Policy making gives individual instructors a little bit of freedom to "case" individual circumstances.

Shared authority is very common. You two just have to sit down and hack through this thing. If you cannot agree or communicate reasonably, I would say it is a no win relationship and move on. My last full time teaching position was working for a complete nut job. The guy had some major power and control issues.... I moved on.

[John Bennett]

Thank you for the good ideas everyone. I spoke with the club owner. He said the other instructor has been warned in the past about doing this very thing.

We agreed that we would get strict on liability papers being signed before anyone gets on the mat at all, and have a meeting to discuss who has final command authority in the event of similar situations in the future.

It's tough because this is a new club in its first year. There are bugs to be worked out.