Jujitsu Website [Archive] - BudoSeek! Martial Arts Community Forums

Tony Dismukes

08-25-2009, 15:28

Well, you might want to start with the idea that there are just two types of jujutsu - BJJ and "Traditional" jujutsu.

By "traditional" jujutsu, I suppose you mean the various forms of koryu jujutsu, i.e. those arts dating back to before the Meiji restoration. You don't seem to have any significant information about those systems, other than to dismiss them for not including randori or sparring as a training method.

You seem to be unaware that there are a lot more forms of gendai (modern) jujutsu than just BJJ. Perhaps you could look up Danzan Ryu jujutsu, Small Circle jujutsu, Shingitai jujutsu, etc, etc. Many of these modern forms do include randori and sparring.

You might also want to get those broken links fixed. No one is going to use your website when so many of the links lead to "Page not found" errors.

Rasputin

08-25-2009, 15:45

You seem to be unaware that there are a lot more forms of gendai (modern) jujutsu than just BJJ. Perhaps you could look up Danzan Ryu jujutsu, Small Circle jujutsu, Shingitai jujutsu, etc, etc. Many of these modern forms do include randori and sparring.

Or even Heiwashinkai (http://www.heiwashin.org/) jujutsu!

jwinch2

08-25-2009, 16:28

Apparently traditional Jujutsu only trains with Kata and does not prepare you for a real fight as well... :rolleyes:

Listen, I appreciate what a massive undertaking putting together a website on the many arts that make up the style of jujutsu must be. However, if you are going to do it, it needs to be done accurately and in such a way that is respectful of the rich tradition of the Koryu arts, their derivatives (aikido, hapkido, aiki-jujutsu, etc.), judo, genai bujutsu, and BJJ. Hell you can even probably pay attention to Wado Ryu Karate if you are really trying to be accurate and cover all of your bases. I'm sure there are several other styles and sub-styles that I should be including here.

In addition, you do not have accurate information as to the training methods or goals of the styles you are discussing. If you are going to call the site "everything" jujutsu then you should probably be sure that you have 'everything' covered. Right now you are not close. I am not trying to be mean here and only chimed in because you asked for opinions on how to make the site better. You should also keep in mind that I don't know crap about jujutsu and I can spot those things easily. Serious jujutsuka are going to take one look at your website in its current fashion and dismiss it out of hand. We have some of those people on here and they are trying to help you. I would pay attention and, if you are serious about your website providing an accurate reflection of jujutsu, take their advice.

What you trying to do involves a monumental amount of work in order to do it properly and even then you are never going to please everyone. You are trying to provide information about an art that has been around for well over a thousand years in some form or other. Due to that, you are going to have people that have dedicated significant portions of their lives to one style of JJ or another. In some cases, Jujutsu may tell the history of their entire family! It will be almost impossible to do it justice. I am very glad that it is you rather than me that is dealing with it. Good luck with it...

I think the best thing you can do is to make sure you have some of your broad facts correct which right now you do not. After that, you can start to add the massive amount of detail that will be needed to make it work in the long run.

Webmaster

08-25-2009, 17:26

Many years ago, I started a project like Seb's, a site devoted to Jujutsu that was to have detailed information about Koryu, Gendai, BJJ, etc and derivative arts (like Judo and Aikido). I had the domain name, the web hosting and everything ready to go. Then after a few email discussions with some noted Budo historians and a lot of research, I discovered that I had bitten off way more than I could chew and abandoned the project. So I understand where Seb is coming from, but honestly, he's got a LOT of work to do before it can live up to the name "Everything Jujitsu".

Nick L.

08-25-2009, 21:00

Maybe he should just scrub the site and start a jujutsuseek discussion forum. :rolleyes:

st5486

08-26-2009, 04:04

Hi guys,

Thanks for your replies, they have been really useful. Yes, I am starting to see now that my content is nowhere near as detailed as it could be, I was kind of basing my quality of content on the first page that appearing when I searched for "jujitsu" in Google lol - ultimate-jujitsu.com
Anyway, I started this project mainly as a technical one because I have never built a website before and also I am interested in Jujitsu. I was really only gonna spend alot of time on it over the summer whilst I am free, I started the website 3 weeks ago. I guess I will spend some more time on it, I will be adding the techniques section soon, hopefully with a lot of moves with pictures and videos that I take. I will take the advice above and try and get my facts correct (although I pretty sure I got most of them from decent books, one by Renzo Gracie) and to add more different styles into different sections.

Thanks

David Craik

08-26-2009, 04:35

Why did you find it neccesary in your first post to state that you simply 'came across' this site when in fact you made it? One sees this quite a bit with new members and it has always puzzled me. Surely if one thinks enough of a piece of work to promote it then they would think enough of it to claim authorship.

Your definition of 'kata' in the glossary is not neccesarily correct. Koryu kata are many, if not most, times paired exercises - not 'performed by a lone student'. Is there such a thing as a solo jujutsu kata? I don't know. Seems like it would be rather difficult to demonstrate the techniques without an uke.

Tony Dismukes

08-26-2009, 06:33

(although I pretty sure I got most of them from decent books, one by Renzo Gracie)

Yeah, I thought I detected a slightly garbled version of the history presented in Mastering Jujitsu by Renzo Gracie and John Danaher. That is a decent book, for what it is, but 1) it's a book just about BJJ, not any of the other forms of jujutsu and 2) it's not a history book. It does provide a little bit of history, but it's a carefully selected little slice of history designed to emphasize a point about training methods. (Also, remember that neither Gracie or Danaher are martial arts historians.) As an introduction to the concepts of BJJ, it's a fine book, but it's not much of a basis for learning everything about jujutsu as a whole.

When reading books on martial arts, you have to realize that each book contains only a small piece of the puzzle. Also, many books contain misinformation and errors, especially regarding history. (This is partly because so many martial artists learn the history of their art as an oral tradition from their teachers, which leads to some serious distortions of facts being introduced over the years.)

Tony Dismukes

08-26-2009, 07:11

I was kind of basing my quality of content on the first page that appearing when I searched for "jujitsu" in Google lol - ultimate-jujitsu.com

You mean www.ultimatejujitsu.com? I'm not going to trash that site, since the owner isn't here asking for advice, but I will give an example of how seriously to take the information there. In the "Traditional Ju-jitsu" section, he presents a theoretical training syllabus which includes elements that would only be found in a modern eclectic form of jujutsu synthesized much more recently than BJJ. (Remember, if your curriculum includes elements of modern sport karate, then you're not practicing traditional jujutsu.)

Webmaster

08-26-2009, 08:24

You mean www.ultimatejujitsu.com? I'm not going to trash that site, since the owner isn't here asking for advice, but I will give an example of how seriously to take the information there. In the "Traditional Ju-jitsu" section, he presents a theoretical training syllabus which includes elements that would only be found in a modern eclectic form of jujutsu synthesized much more recently than BJJ. (Remember, if your curriculum includes elements of modern sport karate, then you're not practicing traditional jujutsu.)
Since Tony is going to be nice, I guess I will play the bad guy. :D That site is crap. The history presented there is garbage, and the techniques shown under the "Traditional Ju-Jitsu" section stink. I really don't have a problem with kicks and punches as a part of "traditional" Jujutsu, but "modern eclectic" would be a better description. However my beef with the techniques as presented in the "traditional" Ju-jitsu section is the obvious lack of fundamentals which make Jujutsu work. Example...

http://www.ultimatejujitsu.com/learn-jujitsu-techniques/traditional-jujitsu-techniques/red-belt/hip-throw-with-strike.shtml

Photo 1: Hard block... and he's still able to grab uke for photo 2? Any hard block should cause the uke's arm to "bounce" off the hard block and would cause tori to have to "chase it down" in order to grab. Also, no attempt to use the force of the strike against uke.

Photo 2: Let's be sure to enter into the throw with our legs straight rather than bending the legs as you come in. Never mind that getting below his center of gravity would sorta help being able to lift uke for the throw. Oh and that kuzushi thing... let's not bother. :rolleyes:

Photo 3: Grabs the belt... oy! Okay, that's a minor thing, but what if uke does not have a belt on?

Photo 4: Finally, tori gets around to actually bending his knees to get below uke's center of gravity. So he wastes valuable time in doing so when he could have come in initially and pivoted into the throw with the legs bent. All he would have had to do then to execute the throw would be to straighten his legs. Then again when you have an uke that just stands there, you can get away with waiting until you are all the way in to finally bend the legs. Thankfully most of my students learn to bend their knees by the time they make it to orange belt.

Photos 5 and 6 - Okay, except that tori is back on his heels as he is executing the throw. I have problems with my green belts and below sometimes doing that.

The bottom line Sebastian is that you need to be careful which sources you use. Just because a site is extensive with lots of content and pictures does not make it accurate or representative of what qualifies as good Jujutsu.

David Craik

08-27-2009, 05:07

I think the core problem with the everything-jujitsu site goes way beyond inaccuracies, generalizations, spelling errors, etc. Even beyond the huge scope of the subject. No matter how much data is drawn from books and websites, the author simply doesn't have the experience to frame what data he has gleaned in the context of a wider whole, to separate the wheat from the chaff, or to resolve apparent contradictions from various sources which are bound to come up as he researches further.

I mean, if you start off by not even being able to define the very thing your entire site is supposed to be about then I rather despair that no amount of line-by-line correction, suggestion, or review is ever going to produce a good product. Not to be mean or snotty here, but I don't know how comprehensive a site a layman in any large and varied subject is ever going to be able to produce.

On the plus side, I like the design of the site. Very clean and easy to navigate (apart from the broken links mentioned before).

Nick L.

08-27-2009, 20:47

http://www.ultimatejujitsu.com/learn-jujitsu-techniques/traditional-jujitsu-techniques/red-belt/recumbent-ankle-throw.shtml

:eek: :lmao4:

From what I can piece together, Seb ( who is not a jujutsuka) is attempting to compile evrything about Jiu Jitsu, jujitsu, jujutsu, BJJ, GJJ, and any other ju out there in a attempt to either educate himself or make money off of a website that he has no clue about it's content. I don't know much more about the various forms of "ju" either but I do know that if you (Seb ) want to learn, you need to find someone to teach you some form of Ju Ju. If you just want to make money, pick something that you know about.

An idea, if you just want to make money then start a MMA website. Most people will take whatever you say as truth, except those who actually know the difference but most of the public doesn't know the difference and even less of the public knows what the heck Jujutsu is anyway.

st5486

08-28-2009, 04:40

torbjork

08-28-2009, 04:56

Don't take this the wrong way, but wouldn't it be more suitable to your purposes to just make a training blog, with posts along the lines of "today we learned abc in class. Afterwards I read up on it and it appears this technique was originally developed to xyz against 123, which helped me understand the movements better because..."?

That's going to be more interesting to read, contain more accurate information, and annoy far fewer of your Jujutsu seniors than a work-in-progress website full of errors.

..If you get my drift.

David Craik

08-28-2009, 05:47

Hey, what makes you think I don't practise Jujitsu?!

Possibly because you didn't even know what 'ju' meant, and it's a central concept in both jujutsu and judo. I can't fathom doing an activity for a year and not even knowing what it's name means. And the aforementioned errors, generalizations, and inaccuracy of classification.

What type of jujutsu do you do? Perhaps you could consult your seniors and sensei for help on the website.

st5486

08-28-2009, 06:43

torbjork, that is actually a good idea. Perhaps I will use your suggestion lol. I might add a section called "Blog" and write about what I have been learning and kind of link that section with the techniques section with pictures etc.

David, ok it was a bit cheesy that I wasn't sure what Ju meant, I was a bit hasty in trying to put all the information I could on the website before properly understanding it all. By the way (another thing I should know), how is Jujutsu pronounced? Is it pronounced the same as Jujitsu? Is it just another spelling of the same meaning? It's called Bujutsu, I've included details of the classes on the website, its a mix of everything, mainly self-defense and practical stuff, standing and ground work.

Tony Dismukes

08-28-2009, 08:56

Seb, was this:

It's called Bujutsu
intended as your answer to

What type of jujutsu do you do?

Bujutsu is a generic Japanese term for martial arts. Often "bujutsu" will be used to refer to older arts or to arts that are primarily concerned with the mechanics of fighting while "budo" will refer to younger arts that encompass a larger way of life, but this isn't a hard and fast rule.

Since it's a general term, "bujutsu" doesn't work as the name of a specific style of jujutsu. It's like asking "what kind of karate do you do" "Oh, I do martial arts karate."

You get the point? Jujutsu is a specific form of bujutsu, but bujutsu isn't a specific form of jujutsu.

Tony Dismukes

08-28-2009, 09:17

By the way (another thing I should know), how is Jujutsu pronounced? Is it pronounced the same as Jujitsu?

Jujutsu are just different transliterations into English of the same Japanese word. (Remember that Japanese doesn't use the western alphabet.)

The older convention was "jujitsu" or jiu-jitsu", while modern convention dictates "jujutsu", but they are the same word and are pronounced the same.

By the way, I notice that you have been updating your website in response to our feedback, but much of the information you've added seems to be cut-and-pasted directly from wikipedia. Technically this is an improvement over what you had before, but you should ask yourself a couple of things:

1) Is it ethical to copy the work of others without attribution?
2) Do you have the experience or knowledge base to evaluate and filter the information you are copying from around the net?

Personally I think torbjork has a good idea. Why not try a blog detailing your own step-by-step efforts to learn the art and history of jujutsu? It would likely be more interesting, honest, and informative than trying to make an "everything" site where you just copy stuff you haven't personally researched in depth.

jwinch2

08-28-2009, 09:20

I have deciding that this guy is playing a joke on everyone. No one who would seriously attempt such a website and who is a student of the art would be asking these sort of questions...

David Craik

08-28-2009, 10:33

And really, with someone that comes on here under a dishonest pretext, should we really bother anyway?

st5486

08-28-2009, 11:04

Alright, geez stop having a go at me because I pretended the website wasn't mine in the beginning lol. Is it really that big a deal to keep going on about it?

Tony, I have no idea what particular style of Jujitsu is being taught, I will ask my sensei later, but it has never occurred to me to ask...(didn't think it would help me in anyway, if it was a particular style, which I don't think it is). Also, yes, I figured a quick and easy method for the time being would be to compile text from wikipedia as it seems to be a source of fairly decent info on a mixture of martial arts. As for the attribution, I have included a link at the bottom of every page on which I have used wikipedia text, as per the fair use instructions on the website. As to the authors of the information, I have no idea how to find this and have already looked extensively incase I've missed something.

You guys have to remember that you are all (seemingly) twice my age and will obviously have much more knowledge and experience than me (which is why I'm asking for help) and not put downs (David!)

David Craik

08-28-2009, 11:30

I don't recall any 'put downs', I've stated nothing but fact. You asked for opinions -

Have a look at it and let me know what you think.

And so I've given you mine in accordance with your request. If you don't like what I think, that is unfortunate but nonetheless your problem, not mine. I'm not the one attempting to author a comprehensive site about a subject I obviously know next to nothing about. There are probably only a handful of people on this planet that could write an authoritative (read: original research) site on such a huge subject - at one time there were around two thousand distinct styles that had jujutsu/kogusoku/yawara/etc. in Japan alone. And this isn't including any of the gendai types or BJJ that have come about since.

WRT your first post, I keep 'going on about it' because you never addressed it even when asked directly and because dishonesty pisses me off. So few people seem to be forthright and straightforward anymore. What would be wrong with "Hey guys, I am making a site about jujutsu and I wonder if you have any suggestions?" Nobody's going to reach through their computer screen and tweak your nose or something if they think it's rubbish and they know that you made it. The many experienced jujutsuka we have on here - of many flavors and styles - would instead be more likely to offer constructive suggestions rather than simply derision of a third party.

Here's an instructive exercise for you. Go and join www.e-budo.com and make your first post there in their jujutsu forum and identical to your first post on this thread. You will discover that we are very kind here.

But whatever, I'll bow out now Seb (since we are apparently on a first-name basis). Good luck with your website and 'Bujutsu' training.

Tony Dismukes

08-28-2009, 11:43

I have no idea what particular style of Jujitsu is being taught, I will ask my sensei later, but it has never occurred to me to ask...(didn't think it would help me in anyway, if it was a particular style, which I don't think it is)

Seb, if you're interested in the history of jujutsu, you might as well start with learning the history of your own lineage. Find out who your teacher learned from, and then who your teacher's teacher learned from, and so on. Even if your instructor is teaching his own "generic" blend of jujutsu, at some point it presumably goes back to one or more named systems.

As far as David's harping on your initial fib about "coming upon" the website, I bet he'd probably drop it if you offered an apology and (possibly) a brief explanation of why you thought that was a good idea in the first place.

Nick L.

08-28-2009, 12:22

You guys have to remember that you are all (seemingly) twice my age and will obviously have much more knowledge and experience than me (which is why I'm asking for help) and not put downs (David!)

I am not nearly twice your age, my knowledge of Jujutsu is not that great either. However, I have only been studying for aprox. 2 yrs.. I guess I can only attribute what little knowledge that I have gained to the level of insruction being recieved. Not to put you down Buuuttt there is a level of arrogance when you form a site claiming everything jujitsu.

I commend your effort to learn more, I have made plenty of bonehead mistakes and actions in my short learning process (some more embarassing than yours) but you should really be getting this info from your seniors or the mods on this forum. I suggest you go through the Japanese Arts threads and look over some of the conversations from past posts and start asking question after you have done plenty of reading. :bow:

DragonMind

08-28-2009, 14:24

Alright, geez stop having a go at me because I pretended the website wasn't mine in the beginning lol. Is it really that big a deal to keep going on about it?

Do you recall ever hearing the expression "You never get a second chance to make a good first impression"? Well, you have started off badly and the first impression is that you are a dishonest twit, whom we must now be very cautious about regarding anything you say. A sincere, respectful martial artist would at this point realize they have stomped on their John Thomas and should make amends for bad behavior. The next move is yours, I suggest considering it carefully.

Cdnronin

08-28-2009, 16:25

Hey, what makes you think I don't practise Jujitsu?! I've been doing it for about a year now twice a week, which is why I started this website because it's one of my interests. Another reason for the website is because I want to learn more about Jujitsu as I am building the website. So over time I hope to make the information clearer and more consistent once I have read everything.

I truly hope this is a long term plan for you(once I have read everything). There are several on this board and elsewhere with impressive libraries on this subject. I have roughly 400 books on jiujitsu and judo, barely a dent in what's out there. Books and articles have been written in English on these subjects for over 100 years. That doesn't take into account the volumes written in French, German, Italian, Spanish, etc., nor does it take into account the amount of published information in Japanese!

You definitely have your work cut out for you.

st5486

08-28-2009, 17:22

Hello all,

well thanks for replies, I realise that I should apologise for being dishonest in the first place, for some reason I didn't think it was much of an issue. The main reason why I did it I guess was because I initially thought it was a quick way to advertise my site. Then I saw the reply and realised it wasn't the right way to go about it. Further, I thought it would be a good idea to get done feedback on the site, hence my change in tact. Since then, I have posted honestly on other forums asking for feedback. Does this make you guys trust me anymore? So now I say sorry for my first impression, I am trying to amend things. Thanks for you feedback tony it's been very helpful. I have talked to my sensei and we practise a style called tai bujutsu. But it seems there is not much to distinguish different styles, given that nearly all do mostly the same set of throws/locks etc. That's what my sensei said and I agree given the research I have been doing. Just been doing 2 hours of hip throws and various arm locks, my back is killing!

Nick L.

08-28-2009, 18:26

I have talked to my sensei and we practise a style called tai bujutsu. But it seems there is not much to distinguish different styles, given that nearly all do mostly the same set of throws/locks etc. That's what my sensei said :laugh: and I agree given the research I have been doing. Just been doing 2 hours of hip throws and various arm locks, my back is killing!

That's it, he is messing around, pulling our legs. :hot:

st5486

08-29-2009, 11:57

ummm can you let me in on the joke then? cos I don't get it lol

nismophreek

08-29-2009, 19:35

I think what he is getting at is that not only do YOU not know the lineage of your Jujutsu but neither does your SENSEI.

st5486

09-02-2009, 11:57

Webmaster

09-02-2009, 13:00

Have you guys got any ideas on how I can get people to use my forum? Or better still to get people viewing my site? I haven't finished the techniques section or started the blog properly yet but I was thinking of telling friends and perhaps using facebook/twitter.
Sebastian,

When visitors go to a site that is still under construction, they look around, find what is there, and if there are problems with content or with broken links, they go away and likely will not return. The first thing you need to do before you create forums is to give people a reason to go to the site to begin with besides the forums. My suggestion would be to close your forums for the time being, and remove the link to it. Then, I would focus on your techniques section, the blog and other content you might have. I would also pay particular attention to getting the informational stuff like the history of Jujutsu finished and make it as accurate as possible. This will require that YOU do the research yourself and don't take what your instructor says as gospel. Bad information is the number one way to lose visitors.

Once you have completed the site, fixed the content (like that history page), and have a regular site visitors (check your site logs for this), then make a BIG announcement of your new forums and make sure that announcement is the first thing someone will see when they go to your site.

st5486

10-08-2009, 04:54

Hi everyone,

I've just added a whole load of techniques with videos and pictures. I'd be hugely grateful if you could have a look and tell me what you think - Are the descriptions / pictures / videos clear and easy to understand? How about the wording or the third person view? Would a second person view be easier?

Thanks

Webmaster

10-08-2009, 06:39

Love this quote:

"It's history and how is has evolved to a highly efficient and popular art ".

So the art was not highly efficient in the past? I guess those silly Samurai didn't know crap about real combat did they? Not like the real combat you find in the octagon huh? :rolleyes:

Anyway, time to rename your website from "Everything Jujitsu" to "Just what I know about Jujitsu and nothing else".

Mark Barlow

10-08-2009, 16:34

I appreciate that you've quit making up facts to fill your site "I wasn't sure what Ju meant, I was a bit hasty in trying to put all the information I could on the website before properly understanding it all." but pulling them off the 'net is not guaranteed to be more accurate. At this point in your martial arts journey, you don't know enough to discern fact from fiction.

There are several folks on budoseek who have been hardcore students of Jujutsu longer than you've been alive. Of course, this doesn't automatically imbue them with knowledge but you'll be hard pressed to find any of them who think Bujutsu is "similar" to Jujutsu or that all Jujutsu systems are alike.

Hold off on presenting your site as a source for info on Jujutsu. If you have that much free time and energy, make the site about your dojo and your instructor. That way you won't be making blanket statements that open you up to these kind of responses.

Webmaster

10-08-2009, 17:24

...who think Bujutsu is "similar" to Jujutsu ...
Kinda like saying that a M16 rifle is similar to a gun. :laugh:

I was going to comment on that myself, but you beat me too it. I think that Sebastian is well intentioned, but he's at that point where he does not know how much he doesn't know.

st5486

10-09-2009, 05:03

Hi all,

Thanks for yuor comments, I do appreciate them and perhaps I need to revise some of the text still. But I'd be very grateful if you could take a look at my techniques section as well, as per the previous post of mine?

but you'll be hard pressed to find any of them who think Bujutsu is "similar" to Jujutsu or that all Jujutsu systems are alike.

I'd like to know why Bujutsu is not similar to Jujutsu please if you guys have got the time to explain it to me (I will also research but also would like to know why you think it is not similiar). Because you are saying this and that but are not explaining why or showing me your knowledge that you have... I do think many of the different Jujutsu styles are similiar I don't think I ever said they were the same, and certainly not all of them. But a lot of the styles have the same techniques, the same moves but applied in different ways, for example Quantum Jujitsu still has things like arm bars and leg locks but they aim to create as fluid transitions as possible with more flair lol. Someone please prove me wrong and give me an example of a major difference between a few styles (I will also research) because I would also like to learn of course, so I can call my site Everything Jujitsu :bow:

"It's history and how is has evolved to a highly efficient and popular art ".

Well, I think it depends how far you go back in history. Of course it was an efficient art in the past, that's why it was used by the Samarai. What I am saying though is that it evolved (didn't it?). And if it evolved then it possibly became more efficient? Or did it become less efficient? What do you think?

As I said before, if you can spare the time to have a look at my techniques section that would be great.

st5486

10-09-2009, 05:33

Ok guys, I've had a quick look around and it seems many other people are also curious about what separates the different styles of Jujitsu...

Many of the answers seem to be some include weapons, some focus more on standing up fighting rather than ground fighting, others use randori, others kata...

But as many other people said in response to the people asking questions is that many of the different styles form simply because the teacher has decided to create their own style and mix and match different methodologies. So it seems even if I wanted to create my own style, all I need to do is choose a few moves, whether I want to include weapon fighting and what kind of focus I will apply in training, i.e. mat or standing and randori or kata. So what I want to know is, why is there so much importance associated with what style of Jujitsu one gets taught ( I mean the named style). Because earlier someone asked me what style I got taught and it seemed to me like they were waiting for the name of the actual style I get taught. But as it seems, the name of the style means very little considering that every instructor can create their own style of Jujitsu (with many doing that) and the best one can do is to try and make comparisons with the style to more well known styles that have been around longer. And all I got for saying that I practiced Tai Jutsu was disrespect - You said maybe my instructor doesn't know what he's taking about but what if he created his own style (which I remember him saying he has), then it's not going to have a well known name given to a previous style, is it?

So what are your views on this guys?

David Craik

10-09-2009, 05:46

I'd like to know why Bujutsu is not similar to Jujutsu

'Bujutsu' means 'martial technique' or 'martial craft'.

Kyujutsu = bujutsu
Iaijutsu = bujutsu
Kenjutsu = bujutsu
Bojutsu = bujutsu
Koryu jujutsu = bujutsu

Saying bujutsu is 'similar to' jujutsu is like saying sport is similar to football.

And if it evolved then it possibly became more efficient? Or did it become less efficient? What do you think?

This is phrased in absolutes. Did some styles become 'more efficient' for use in competition? Undoubtedly. Would these same styles be 'more efficient' for grappling in armor? Probably not.

st5486

10-09-2009, 06:02

Yes, I understand what Bujutsu means and apparently that its like saying sport is similar to football... but why? I also already know that some styles are based more on Bujutsu than Jujutsu but what does that mean? I'm having a hard time tried to find the info myself, I thought maybe you would know, but so far you've just told me what I already have been told

Webmaster

10-09-2009, 06:41

Yes, I understand what Bujutsu means and apparently that its like saying sport is similar to football... but why?

Why? Are you kidding? It means what is means because it's their (meaning Japanese) language and no matter how you want to define it, it means what is means.

:banghead:

I also already know that some styles are based more on Bujutsu than Jujutsu...
Sebastian, sorry to be blunt, but do you have a learning disability or something? I really do not believe that you are not grasping what people with decades more experience in the arts are trying to tell you.

Bujutsu is NOT a specific martial art! Bujutsu simply means martial arts! Jujutsu is a form of Bujutsu/martial art.

:banghead:

Sebastian, folks are really getting a lot of humor out of this, but enough is enough. It's obvious that you are only willing to listen to what you want to hear and are going to ignore the rest. Further, multiple members, again with decades of experience in the martial arts (Bujutsu) and Jujutsu in particular, have told you that the problem with you trying to put together a site like "Everything Jujutsu" is that you have practically no experience in the martial arts (Bujutsu) and in particular Jujutsu, that would allow you to discern what is accurate as far as information you might present or correct in terms of waza.

If you want some feedback on the waza on your site? I'll do it in five words:

No kuzushi and poor technique.

:banghead:

TonyU

10-09-2009, 08:16

No kuzushi and poor technique.

Great! Now we're going to have three pages trying to explain what kuzushi is.

Tony Dismukes

10-09-2009, 09:01

But I'd be very grateful if you could take a look at my techniques section as well, as per the previous post of mine?

No kuzushi and poor technique.

You might want to add: incomplete/misleading text for the photos.

For example, the caption for the final step of the mount escape demonstration says: "Tori pulls with the left arm and pushes with the right, ending up in Uke's guard." Based on that explanation, a novice would think that the reversal is carried out with some sort of arm action, when in fact it is performed with a bridging motion which does not depend at all on pulling or pushing with the arms.

So what I want to know is, why is there so much importance associated with what style of Jujitsu one gets taught ( I mean the named style). Because earlier someone asked me what style I got taught and it seemed to me like they were waiting for the name of the actual style I get taught. But as it seems, the name of the style means very little considering that every instructor can create their own style of Jujitsu (with many doing that) and the best one can do is to try and make comparisons with the style to more well known styles that have been around longer.

There are a few reasons for this.

First, most instructors don't make up their own systems. If you practice an established system, then providing the name of that system gives the questioner some info about what you train and how you train it. It also provides a chance to check on the qualifications of your instructor.

Second, if you are practicing a brand-new system, then you're acting as sort of a representative of that system to the world. I might not know much about Shingatai Jujutsu, but if all the Shingatai practitioners I run into are tough, skilled, and well-rounded, then I'm going to start thinking that it must be a decent system of jujutsu.

Thirdly, even if your instructor has developed his own system, he had to learn his skills from somewhere else originally. Knowing that lineage tells us something about his qualifications. There's a difference between a guy who has a 6th dan in judo, 3rd dan aikijujutsu, and 3rd dan modern arnis who develops his own system and a guy who has a 1st dan in karate, 6 months training in iaijutsu, and a few seminars in ninpo taijutsu who develops his own system.*

*(Don't laugh. I met that guy. He was very sincere, had about a dozen students, and was not at all conscious of being a fraud.)

st5486

10-09-2009, 10:41

Ok, thanks everyone for answering, except Robert - I don't know what you're problem is but it seems I will take my questions elsewhere because you seem completely disrespectful and very unhelpful - You are having a hard time understanding what it is I'm saying as well despite your huge wealth of knowledge and your age

When I said "but why?" I was referring to the statement: "but you'll be hard pressed to find any of them who think Bujutsu is "similar" to Jujutsu or that all Jujutsu systems are alike.". I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN BUJUTSU AND JUJUTSU. I realise that Bujutsu and Jujutsu encompases many different styles, many of which might be different - So why was this: "but you'll be hard pressed to find any of them who think Bujutsu is "similar" to Jujutsu " said

And actually no, I haven't got a learning disability, maybe you've got a reading disability? I happen to be extremely qualified given my age and I have absolutely no problem understanding what you're saying. Further to this, I am not only listening to what I want to hear - Why woud I bother asking these questions in the first place? I understand now that called a website Everything Jujitsu maybe misleading given my experience and the current content but I can hardly rename the site or give up on it. I am continually learning new things and I hope by the time I am your age there will be much more knowedge and experience on the site - One can hardly expect the website to be everything everyone wants it to be.

Also you were quite blunt with your feedback on my techniques section - I do not find this helpful at all and quite disrespectful as I have never treated you guys with disrespect, I wouldl have thought better from Jujutsuka (this is what someone said to me at the beginning of this thread I believe). From the latter posts I understand that some of the descriptions have little insight, with the mount escape I should have emphasised the hips but that thought escaped me when writing the description because I was in a hurry. But I am extremely grateful to the person pointing this out - I will be revising all the descriptions because of the persons feedback. So for someone who only likes to hear what they want, I'm actually listening to the feedback you give and acting on it. But I cannot act on blunt feedback that consists of five words

Tony came close to describing differences between specific arts but still no-one has answered my question of giving some specific examples of major differences between different styles - I'm beginning to think you guys don't know of any either.

It seems I too am hitting a brick wall with you guys, if this is the case and you are not willing to help me then I will go to another forum and ask others. I don't think I've really said anything that warrants to replies I've been getting from some of you people

Tony Dismukes

10-09-2009, 11:07

I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN BUJUTSU AND JUJUTSU.

Seb, this has been explained several times already but you don't seem to be getting it. "Bujutsu" is a generic term. "Jujutsu" is a relatively specific term. Asking "what it the difference between bujutsu and jujutsu" is like asking "what it the difference between musical instruments and trombones" or "what is the difference between people and guys named Fred." If that doesn't make sense to you, you'll need to explain what it is that you're not understanding.

I understand now that called a website Everything Jujitsu maybe misleading given my experience and the current content but I can hardly rename the site or give up on it.

Sure you can. Domain name registrations are pretty cheap. If you're determined to have a jujutsu-themed website, you could start a new site dedicated to covering the curriculum at your current school and/or documenting your personal journey as you study and learn the art. This would be a much more useful/interesting/honest concept.

Also you were quite blunt with your feedback on my techniques section - I do not find this helpful at all

Robert's feedback was blunt, but not necessarily unhelpful. The concept of kuzushi is fundamental to pretty much every style of jujutsu, so if your demonstrated techniques don't include this, then there is a problem which needs fixing.

no-one has answered my question of giving some specific examples of major differences between different styles - I'm beginning to think you guys don't know of any either.

As stated, this is too broad of a question. Some jujutsu styles have major differences, some have very small differences, most have significant commonalities. If you want to ask about the differences between two specific styles of jujutsu, then someone who has experience in both styles may be able to give you an answer.

It seems I too am hitting a brick wall with you guys, if this is the case and you are not willing to help me then I will go to another forum and ask others.

You've gotten quite a lot of honest, informative feedback so far. If your feelings are hurt and you want to go elsewhere, that's your choice, but there hasn't been any shortage of folks "willing to help" you here.

Webmaster

10-09-2009, 11:21

I realise that Bujutsu and Jujutsu encompases many different styles, many of which might be different
You are again making my point Junior. Bujutsu IS NOT A STYLE!

Think of it this way. An M16 Rifle is a firearm. So are all firearms called rifles? No, because a pistol is also a firearm and it is distinctly different from a rifle. Firearm is a term which encompasses all types guns to include rifles, pistol, shotguns, etc. Bujutsu means martial art and encompasses ALL martial arts of Japan.

And actually no, I haven't got a learning disability, maybe you've got a reading disability?
No, I just have no patience for snot-nosed whelps that seem to think that they are so f'ing smart that they don't need to listen to others that they have sought advice from and have more years of experience than you have been breathing oxygen on this planet.

I happen to be extremely qualified given my age and I have absolutely no problem understanding what you're saying.
Yep, one year of training makes you extremely qualified. :rolleyes:

Also you were quite blunt with your feedback on my techniques section - I do not find this helpful at all and quite disrespectful as I have never treated you guys with disrespect,...
In case you don't realize this, but I don't owe you any respect. To the contrary, you came to my site under false pretenses and only when caught did you admit that the site is yours.

If you want feedback on how to do your site or critique of how it's put together, you've got it. If you want to learn and understand your art, don't look to us to teach you. I am not your Sensei and if you have questions on how to do a technique or describe it, I suggest that you talk with him.

I wouldl have thought better from Jujutsuka (this is what someone said to me at the beginning of this thread I believe).
See the above paragraph. You came here as a liar, and while we might have been blunt, it was because you are too hard-headed to "get it" any other way.

But I cannot act on blunt feedback that consists of five words
We are not here to coach you or help you build your site. You asked for opinions and you got them. You asked for feedback, and you got that too. If you want more, my consulting fees for web development start at $75/hour.

It seems I too am hitting a brick wall with you guys, if this is the case and you are not willing to help me then I will go to another forum and ask others.
Don't go, we are enjoying the entertainment value you have provided. :laugh: Really, if you think we are harsh, you are going to be in shock when you see the reception you're going to get on other sites.

I don't think I've really said anything that warrants to replies I've been getting from some of you people
We could again refer back to your first post of this thread, but it would not matter. I could also refer you back to your numerous statements which seem to indicate your inability to grasp what is being said to you, but that doesn't matter either because you simply ignore most of what has been said. Even a parent with the unconditional love for their child loses patience, and in your case, that patience has long since been expended.

Andrewh423

10-09-2009, 11:22

Seb. You do seem well intentioned, and it does appear you are taking most of the criticism well. I know it's not easy building a website of any kind (my dojo site is very simple, and even that was difficult).

But you are NOT understanding what Mr. Carver and others are trying to explain to you.

Jujutsu is a part of Bujutsu.

Sports = Golf, Basketball, Football, Hockey, Baseball, etc.

Bujutsu = Jujutsu, Iaijutsu, Kenjutsu, Aikijutsu, etc.

So, obviously there are GREAT differences between arts of Bujutsu. Should I explain to you the differences between Baseball and Golf? That's what you're asking when you want to know the differences between styles of Bujutsu.

Golf is a sport; Baseball is a sport.

Jujutsu is Bujutsu; Aikijutsu is Bujutsu.

Now, if you are asking the question of what the difference is between the arts I mentioned above, that makes sense. But asking what the differences between Bujutsu and Jujutsu are is like asking 'what's the difference between sport and Golf?'. You can see it simply doesn't make sense.

My advice to everyone else: Treat this young, well-intentioned, mis-informed, ambitious mind as one of your own students.

My advice to Seb: Keep trying. Do not let criticism stop you, you'll face it your whole life, no matter how much you know and how good you are. And sometimes, when you're being thick, the criticism is well deserved (I know I've deserved my lot through the years!). Be polite, and mine these people for all the info you can get. Good, honest info on Jujutsu is VERY hard to come by, and I would not lightly abandon the gold-mine you found here.

Andrewh423

10-09-2009, 11:36

Actually my first bit of advice should've been 'Be respectful, no matter what'. Especially as a junior seeking advice.

TonyU

10-09-2009, 12:10

You are again making my point Junior. Bujutsu IS NOT A STYLE!

Think of it this way. An M16 Rifle is a firearm. So are all firearms called rifles? No, because a pistol is also a firearm and it is distinctly different from a rifle. Firearm is a term which encompasses all types guns to include rifles, pistol, shotguns, etc. Bujutsu means martial art and encompasses ALL martial arts of Japan.
I don't know Robert. He's a Brit he might not get the concept of firearms. :laugh:

No, I just have no patience for snot-nosed whelps that seem to think that they are so f'ing smart that they don't need to listen to others that they have sought advice from and have more years of experience than you have been breathing oxygen on this planet.

Yep, one year of training makes you extremely qualified. :rolleyes:

In case you don't realize this, but I don't owe you any respect. To the contrary, you came to my site under false pretenses and only when caught did you admit that the site is yours.

If you want feedback on how to do your site or critique of how it's put together, you've got it. If you want to learn and understand your art, don't look to us to teach you. I am not your Sensei and if you have questions on how to do a technique or describe it, I suggest that you talk with him.

See the above paragraph. You came here as a liar, and while we might have been blunt, it was because you are too hard-headed to "get it" any other way.

We are not here to coach you or help you build your site. You asked for opinions and you got them. You asked for feedback, and you got that too. If you want more, my consulting fees for web development start at $75/hour.

Don't go, we are enjoying the entertainment value you have provided. :laugh: Really, if you think we are harsh, you are going to be in shock when you see the reception you're going to get on other sites.

We could again refer back to your first post of this thread, but it would not matter. I could also refer you back to your numerous statements which seem to indicate your inability to grasp what is being said to you, but that doesn't matter either because you simply ignore most of what has been said. Even a parent with the unconditional love of their child loses patience, and in your case, that patience has long since been expended.
Dang, you're sounding more and more like Gene. ;)

My advice to everyone else: Treat this young, well-intentioned, mis-informed, ambitious mind as one of your own students.
Actually we are. When someone comes in and has sense of entitlement and an aura of superior intellect we tend to it knock them down a notch or two. It happens in our dojo and I know as hell it happens in Robert's dojo.

Mark Barlow

10-09-2009, 13:19

David Craik

10-09-2009, 13:49

And I thought the 'budo vs. bujutsu' debate was bad. Where's my crayons....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/Soulend/bujutsu.jpg

Can anyone here write in Hangul? Maybe that would help.

I also already know that some styles are based more on Bujutsu than Jujutsu but what does that mean?

It doesn't mean anything, because it doesn't make any sense. Jujutsu is a TYPE OF BUJUTSU. This is like saying that some vehicles are based more on cars than on Chevrolet. Archery is bujutsu. Swinging a katana is bujutsu. Lighting signal fires is bujutsu. Throwing shuriken is bujutsu. Swimming in armor is bujutsu. Techniques of castle construction are nominally bujutsu. And jujutsu is bujutsu. No style of martial art is 'based on bujutsu', because "bujutsu" means "martial art". I honestly don't know how to say it any more plainly.

Andrewh423

10-09-2009, 13:53

Seb,

Take criticism from an instructor or senior student as a compliment. It means that they believe you are worth the time and effort to correct. You're still waiting for a pat on the back instead of appreciating a shove in the right direction.

I've had Japanese instructors scream in my face that I was baka yaro while correcting me and while I can't say I enjoyed the experience, I understood that it was a cultural thing and I rolled with the punches, sometimes literally. You've been treated with much more patience but even the best of us have our limits on how many ways and times we'll answer the same question.

Go back to square one, assume you know absolutely nothing (biting my tongue) and approach your training and website with the realization that if you present yourself as an expert, you'll be expected to possess both the knowledge and ability that infers. Proper training involves decades, not months and experience that encompasses more than one dojo and the web.

Excellent. What I was trying to say through my coffee deprived morning haze!

Actually we are. When someone comes in and has sense of entitlement and an aura of superior intellect we tend to it knock them down a notch or two. It happens in our dojo and I know as hell it happens in Robert's dojo.

Understood. Just my opinion, there are better ways to humble someone than name calling.

To each their own!

I have a lot of respect for some of people here, even if I disagree:bow:.