Jujitsu-ka Opinions [Archive] - BudoSeek! Martial Arts Community Forums

Jukido Jujitsu

01-01-2003, 15:53

Jujitsu-ka:

Happy 2003. Our jujitsu forum has been quite lately so I decided I would start up some conversation.

I personally have very strong opinions on various aspects of Jujitsu, and martial arts in general and I would like to see some of the general opinions of others in our Jujitsu BudoSeek Community.

1. What are your opinions of George Kirby. He is the head of Budoshin Jujitsu and the American Jujitsu Association. He has written several books on basic Jujitsu. Any thoughts on him, his thoughts, techniques in his books, etc.? I personally have my own and wanted to see objectively what others think of his Jujitsu.

2. I recently read about "Underwater Jujitsu." I was wondering if anyone here as heard of it, tried it, know anything about it? I thought it was rather "unique" but, again, wanted to see what the rest of jujitsu community thought of it.

Hope this is spark up on our jujitsu forum.

Jeff C.

01-04-2003, 18:02

Hi George! I need to get ahold of you regarding Florida jujitsu stuff. Do you mind if I contact you?

I have not seen Mr. Kirby in action, but I think his books are a good basic primer/memory assist for beginning students. What are your opinions?

I have never heard of "underwater jujitsu." Sounds, uh, interesting....;) Can you tell us more about it?

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Jason H

01-04-2003, 20:09

I believe there was a thread on either budoseek! or e-budo a while ago regarding underwater jujitsu....it is a complete joke (or at least the thread was treated as such). There was a picture of some guy in scuba gear putting his "uke" in an underwater arm bar!!!

I can't take the idea seriously though, even if someone else does, or did. Why underwater Jujitsu? Unless it involves cutting air lines or ripping off masks or tanks, I don't think it to be the most efficient means of dealing with an undersea opponent:p

Lawrence

01-04-2003, 20:52

Hi there,

Okay, back in fudal Japan, their was an art known as suieibajutsu, or water hourse art. This was a way of riding, stearing and manouvering your hourse in water, for when crossing rivers and such.

Now I don't know of a suieijujutsu, but I am aware of suei-jutsu.

Suei-jutsu, or swimming art, composed of fundamentals such as fumi-ashi, or treading water, this acted as the basis for many of the techniques. This was practiced in various amounts of clothing, from full clad armour to kimono. Special skills such as inatobi, or jumping, this enabled the bushi to leap to the land from the water. The ashi-garami, techniques of grappling in water, allowed usually amounted to the bushi entrapping the opponents leg(s) to cause him to drown. The bushi also practiced shusoku-garami, which was a method of swimming even when arms and legs were bound.

Shinobi-no-jutsu or ninja, also practiced methods in water, where devices were used as breathing straws so they could wait in sabatage of enemys or sneak away from a castles grounds. History tells of a ninja who must have used these water techniques to wait in ambush in the sewage pit of Uesugi Kenshin. The story accounts that as Uesugi went to the lavertory, the ninja thrust a spear up his rectum. Kenshin's heir Kagekatsu wrote about Kenshin: An unforseen bowl compaint took hold, and he could not recover. He then lost power.'

In recient years, the artist, comic and Martial artist, Masaaki Hatsumi, has introduced some dubious devices which are supposed to assist the ninja to walk on water by means of little floats they were on their feet. Not 100% sure of their classical origins, or their practical applications, but they are very amusing items in and of themselves.

Anyway. as you can see, for the classical warrior in Japan, combative swimming was a very real thing.

Take care,

Lawrence.
P.S. Don't forget to check your toilet seat for a secret ninja in the loo.

Jukido Jujitsu

01-04-2003, 21:19

Jujitsu Ka:

1. Jeff, please feel free to contact me via e-mail. My e-mail address is: Info@floridajukido.com. You can also check out our dojo's website at www.FloridaJukido.com or www.FloridaJujitsu.com (they both go to the same place). I would love to share insight with each other.

2. In regard to George Kirby. I agree that his books are good basic waza and a good book for a beginning jujitsu ka to look and see what they can expect. In second book, of the basic techniques of the gentle art series, he also includes the testing forms of the AJA (his organization). Which I thought were very good. I enjoyed the reading poritions of the book as well, including the mulitple attackers sections. I don't like to speak bad about anyone, but the one thing I thought could have been better in his books (or perhaps his system of jujitsu) was the lack of "stances." It seems he was standing very naturally the whole time. Not to say that the techniques don't work that way - lord knows they do, but they could be so much stronger with proper body dynamics and stances. My jujitsu system is greatly influenced by some major karate-jutsu systems and it was something I saw that was lacking in Kirby's books. Other then that, I would agree that they are good.

3. In regard to underwater Jujitsu. I only heard of it recently and I saw the picture of the guy in scuba gear putting on an underwater arm bar to an underwater "attacker" just as one of the other community members wrote. I thought it was very laughable and at the same time sad. Anything that might make money! I have also seen some funny/sad jujitsu things on Ebay and even on a recent website claiming its member was a black belt in "Dragon ball Z" jujitsu. Go figure.

Have a great day. (Please excuse typos and poor grammar, typing in a rush.):)

kempojay

01-08-2003, 15:57

Jeff,
Since you are interested in Jujitsu in Florida, I would like to shamelessly promote the Masters of the Next Generation seminar in orlando this april. Professor Leon Jay 9th Dan Small Circle Jujitsu will be teaching one of the sections. Let me know if you would like some more info about this seminar.

Jay Bell

01-08-2003, 16:34

Originally posted by Lawrence

In recient years, the artist, comic and Martial artist, Masaaki Hatsumi, has introduced some dubious devices which are supposed to assist the ninja to walk on water by means of little floats they were on their feet. Not 100% sure of their classical origins, or their practical applications, but they are very amusing items in and of themselves.

What are your sources of this Lawrence? To my understanding, Hatsumi sensei has always laughed at "floaty things for the feet", saying they were not used.

Lawrence

01-08-2003, 17:49

Hi there Jay,

History and Tradition, page 190. These are either floaty things or really warped feet :D

I know Hatsumi laughs about these things, but it is all meant in good faith. He is known for having a sense of humour, also, his works for children, he illustrates some creative constructs which ninja use as hiding places, such as a flame thrower cow, or so I believe. This is great, I am sure he is just haveing some fun with it all.

Take care,

Lawrence.

Bad Karma

01-18-2003, 08:00

KempoJay, did you make that announcement in the "Member Announcement" forum? That would be the appropriate forum AND help ensure most other people saw it.

George, do you have your contact information listed with our search engine? If not, I would ask that you do that. Believe it or not, that search engine gets used by more than is realized.

Peace

Jukido Jujitsu

01-22-2003, 11:26

Bad Karma:

Thanks for your letting me know - but yes, my dojo has been in the directory for quite a long time. It is under Florida Jukido Jujitsu Academy. I have gotten quite a number of hits from Budoseek!

Thanks again.

Doni Pulley

04-09-2003, 03:07

underwater jujutsu. sounds like the next gimmick they'll be selling in the back of magazines.

Twist your brain around this.
How would most jujutsu techniques work in free fall.
How about in orbit.
Maybe I read to much science fiction.

Jeremy Jones

07-24-2003, 17:44

Hi all,

I saw the posts about underwater jujitsu and thought I'd try to clear a few things up. The person who teaches it (at least teaches something called that, could be some gimmicky folks out there) is an instructor in my style. When I first ran across his web page (http://www.pixi.com/~mcjitsu/mizujitsu/mizujitsu.html)
I thought it was goofy as well.

After reading a bit of it, I realized it has more to do with safety in the water as lifeguards and dive instructors when dealing with panicky people. The picture definitely mislead me at first... I do know enough about this instructor to say he isn't the gimmicky type so I'm guessing its a useful course.

This is a great forum I've stumbled across. Lots of good info and discussions!

Jeremy Jones

john_lord_b3

04-16-2004, 13:43

Jeff C.

04-17-2004, 09:26

I have never met Mr. Kirby, but have exchanged a few emails with him, read his newletters, read some of his books. He is polite, highly organized, knowledgeable (quite) and his books have been useful to me.

I do have to say, though, that the name of the tape, "Street Self Defense," sets my teeth on edge. Why add the word "street?" Is that different than just plain ol' "self defense?" How about "Field Self Defense," or "Avenue Self Defense," "Alley Self Defense?" A whole series of roadway self-defense?

General question: how many people teach/sell "self defense" who have no practical experience defending themselves?

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Mekugi

04-17-2004, 09:59

DatuSadiq

04-19-2004, 20:06

George Kirby is a good guy and a good Ju JutsuKa. I teach annually at his Camp Budoshin.

Becky_Sheetz

05-07-2004, 15:53

I trained at a George Kirby seminar last year. I very much anticipated the experience, as his Jujitsu Nerve Techniques book is very, very good. I consider it one of the best in library. I don't make it a practice of drawing the light what I perceive as the negative among other practitioners, but I was not very highly impressed at the seminar, to be frank. The few times he demonstrated technique were not, well, impressive. And his approach was very much one of gentleness. He's very concerned about the legal aspect of self defense, which I appreciate, but don't make a top priority for myself. I make self defense the top priority. The practitioners under his banner were well intended and polite. But I perceived a significant degree of strength on strength (muscled hip throws, shoulder throws, etc). Not a lot of "aiki" despite the importance of blending that he covers in his books. Given this lack of aiki, the senior women, for example, did not appear, from my perspective, to be well suited for combat.

I hope this will be seen as a sincere response to a sincere question and not bashing in any way. If anyone has any problems or thoughts that they would like to be kept private, I welcome you to send me an email at Becky@shobushido.com.

senseigk

07-08-2004, 17:32

Becky-
Thank you for your frankness & candor. I appreciate honest input. If you'd like to provide any more feedback please e-mail me at senseigk@budoshin.com .

George Kirby

ChristopherMoon

07-10-2004, 22:07

Becky,

I am not sure I understand your complaint. You went to a seminar conducted by a "ju-jitsu" teacher and you were upset there was not enough aiki? Maybe you can find what you are looking for at an aikido seminar. Just a thought. Maybe that is not a good idea either since you are making self defense a high priority. Personally I would not go looking in aikido for self defense, I would go for the babe factor. That is strictly my personal opinion though.

Jeff C.

07-10-2004, 23:05

I have never attended a George Kirby seminar, but I do feel compelled to make a few general comments to possibly put this in a better light.

1. Jujitsu is a self defense and a combat system, generally speaking. It not only takes finess, but strength is a big plus too. Perfect technique with little strength under combat conditions is a myth. Practice to perfection in the dojo, but also learn how to use that hip throw with strength when you have a resisting opponent.

2. You CANNOT separate the legal ramifications of self defense from self defense. If you are not interested in the legalities, you are not doing self-defense. You are doing combatives.

3. Good, common sense, effective jujitsu is not pretty.

4. The best jujitsu technique is the one that works and leaves observers wondering what the hell just happened, in spite of watching what you just did.

Becky, nothing wrong with you sharpshooting a seminar; I expect it at my seminars too. I just wanted to make these observations, for what they're worth.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

ChristopherMoon

07-11-2004, 04:56

Jeff,

Well said!

Speaking of legalities and self defense, I am a student of koryu and I know that I cannot use everything I have learned up to this point in a self defense situation. I am not sure I could come up with a really good reason to a jury as to why I threw an attacker to the ground and then took their head as a souvenir. I just don't think it would fly. =)

I truly think that when it comes to strength that it can be an maximizer. I know that a lot of budo people like to say that good techniques do not require muscle strength. I would say those people have never been in a really dangerous fight. I know there are gifted people out there that have excellent technique no matter the situation but the average person chucks the fluid and smooth in the dojo techniques out the window once they have adrenaline pumping.

Jeff C.

07-11-2004, 07:53

Christopher,

You nailed it.

"I know that a lot of budo people like to say that good techniques do not require muscle strength."

In my opinion that is one of the differences between budo and bujutsu. It is how we define "good" technique. It is based upon a difference in prioritizing process and product.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Mekugi

07-11-2004, 08:45

Hey!
I agree with you on this totally Chris.
There are many more babes in Aikido and "Naginata" MA's.

ohhh yeah, the other thing:
Would one go to a seminar on boxing and proclaim that there wasn't enough wrestling?

Becky,

I am not sure I understand your complaint. You went to a seminar conducted by a "ju-jitsu" teacher and you were upset there was not enough aiki? Maybe you can find what you are looking for at an aikido seminar. Just a thought. Maybe that is not a good idea either since you are making self defense a high priority. Personally I would not go looking in aikido for self defense, I would go for the babe factor. That is strictly my personal opinion though.

Becky_Sheetz

07-12-2004, 11:17

Kirby.Sensei, Jeff and Christopher,

My opinion is just that and thank you for your openness in letting me share it here. I really wrestled with whether or not it would even be appropriate to share my sentiment, but I am glad they were received as they were. (Have I mentioned that I really appreciate this forum!)

As to the aiki versus jujitsu thing, no I was not looking for an aikido seminar. As to the boxing versus wrestling analogy, I do have more than 3 brain cells.

Jeff, your comment on self defense legal ramifications was well taken. I think they is a happy medium here.

The point about strength is also well taken. However, if I agreed more fully with you, I would spend more time in the gym and less in the dojo.

Thanks again! :)

corsarius

07-15-2004, 22:07

While Jeff C's points are well taken, I have a few thoughts.

1. Jujitsu is a self defense and a combat system, generally speaking. It not only takes finess, but strength is a big plus too. Perfect technique with little strength under combat conditions is a myth. Practice to perfection in the dojo, but also learn how to use that hip throw with strength when you have a resisting opponent.

Physical strength is definitely a plus, you're right, but it seems to my that the post suggested that the techniques demonstrated were based on strength rather than augmented by it. My instructor isn't a big guy - only about 60 kg in weight, yet it his technique that allows him to throw one of the students, who weighs around 110kg, around the dojo. Strength should always be secondary to technique - there's always going to be someone out there stronger than you - you just have to be smarter :)

2. You CANNOT separate the legal ramifications of self defense from self defense. If you are not interested in the legalities, you are not doing self-defense. You are doing combatives.

While this is true, I'd be rather annoyed if I'd paid for martial arts instruction only to receive a detailed analysis of the legalities of self defence. Legal issues are better conveyed in other ways - I can look them up on the internet, or perhaps a printed summary handed out at seminars would be more useful (after all, we only retain a relatively small percentage of what we are told - if it's written down for us, we can study it at our leisure.

3. Good, common sense, effective jujitsu is not pretty.

Absolutely :)

Cheers.

Carl Martin

07-16-2004, 16:48

"While this is true, I'd be rather annoyed if I'd paid for martial arts instruction only to receive a detailed analysis of the legalities of self defense. Legal issues are better conveyed in other ways - I can look them up on the internet, or perhaps a printed summary handed out at seminars would be more useful (after all, we only retain a relatively small percentage of what we are told - if it's written down for us, we can study it at our leisure."

I think you are carrying the idea of discussing the legalities of this a little far. No one is suggesting you need to study individual laws at great length. I think it is the absolute responsibility of the instructor to talk about the ramifications of applying a technique. Both of how badly will it damage someone and what circumstances its appropriate to use it under.

An instructor failing to do this would be the analgous to a person teaching about a gun, how it works, how to clean it, take it apart, aim it, and fire it without pausing to mention the size of a hole it can make in someone or discussing the appropriate time to make that hole. While instruction on the use of a fire arm and when to use it doesn't require a lot of time it would be VERY irresponsible for and instructor to send someone out with a gun and a pamphlet on what to point it at.

corsarius

07-19-2004, 19:04

I think you are carrying the idea of discussing the legalities of this a little far. No one is suggesting you need to study individual laws at great length. I think it is the absolute responsibility of the instructor to talk about the ramifications of applying a technique. Both of how badly will it damage someone and what circumstances its appropriate to use it under.

An instructor failing to do this would be the analgous to a person teaching about a gun, how it works, how to clean it, take it apart, aim it, and fire it without pausing to mention the size of a hole it can make in someone or discussing the appropriate time to make that hole. While instruction on the use of a fire arm and when to use it doesn't require a lot of time it would be VERY irresponsible for and instructor to send someone out with a gun and a pamphlet on what to point it at.

I agree entirely - legalities are important (though yes, I think it's important to know at least the basic laws of your local area concerning what's legal and what's not - for example, the use of certain chokes and neck-holds in Australia is considered use of "lethal force", and use of them can attract the same legal implications as shooting someone! (strange but true!))

My point was not to say that legal issues are irrelevant, but rather that instruction at a seminar should focus as much (if not more) on technique (my reading of the original post about the George Kirby seminar was that he was overl-emphasising legal issues at the expense of techniqes - sorry if I've got this wrong :) ).

Carl Martin

07-20-2004, 12:22

That's interesting about certain chokes being considered lethal force. My Sensei just says "If you are going to use a choke you better know how to wake them up." I guess some are harder to wake up from than others. :D

On the time between discussing legalities and working on techniques there is a definate balance there. My Sensei likes to talk quite a bit about everything. Sometimes you can look around the room and some eyes are glazed over. Fortunately classes are 2 hours long so theres plenty of time for it. And sometimes the breaks are welcome.

Chris Wade

07-21-2004, 10:24

My instructor often teaches grappling seminars and demonstrates chokes/strangulations. However, there seems to be a shift lately to call them "Neck restraints" instead of chokes or strangles.

I'm not sure if this is some legal dancing or just a resistance to calling them what they are.

DatuSadiq

07-22-2004, 17:20

Just a quick remeinder that everyone please write their full name at the end of each post per forum rules.

Thank you.

Webmaster

07-22-2004, 21:46

However, if you have already used your full name as your username, it is not not necessary to sign each post with your full name.

mateo

11-14-2004, 21:41

"I don't like to speak bad about anyone, but the one thing I thought could have been better in his books (or perhaps his system of jujitsu) was the lack of "stances." It seems he was standing very naturally the whole time. Not to say that the techniques don't work that way - lord knows they do, but they could be so much stronger with proper body dynamics and stances. My jujitsu system is greatly influenced by some major karate-jutsu systems and it was something I saw that was lacking in Kirby's books. Other then that, I would agree that they are good."

To me karate and traditional jujutsu are different animals with different body mechanics, tactics and strategies. I haven't seen many ko-ryu which displayed stances akin to karate's approach and the Daito-ryu I've studied definitely prefers a natural stance from which to react.

Of course in the 20th century we've seen a lot of cross influence between karate and jujutsu, both in Japan and abroad, but I don't think we can fault Mr. Kirby for not adopting something which was not traditionally part of his art.

I've always been curious as to just what style of jujutsu Kirby comes from, though. I've never come across that information.

Any people knowledgeable about Kirby's background out there?