Heart Check

[RA Miller]

The situation- Historically, our tactical team has used a physical test to check the heart or fighting spirit of candidates. The test is extremely mission specific and has held up against all grievances.

The test: After performing part 1 (220 yd sprint, 65 ft drag with a 185# body and 65 ft equipment carry with a 55# unbalanced bag) the tester gets a one minute rest. Armor is worn for the whole test. Then they get in the ring and are surrounded by four people with kicking shields. At the command of "Go" the four people are allowed to strike the tester with the shield (more often like a football block than a strike) and the tester is allowed to strike into the shield. If (when) the tester is knocked to the ground, he or she must immediately regain their feet (they are allowed to). The test goes for one minute. The tester is disqualified if they try to leave the mat area, attempt to rest by not getting up or cease to fight back.

The good- Not only new recruits but all members did this test twice a year. The injury rate was high enough to instill some real fear. The test is mission specific, if one of us gets separated in a riot it will be like this only worse. Most importantly, everybody hits the wall 45 or at most 50 seconds into the test. Experienced MA, boxers, a former pro football player, they all hit the wall. You could see what their instincts were when they had nothing left, whether they would give up or keep fighting. We know that the people that past this test will come get us- that if they can't save us it was because they were physically unable, not because they gave up.

The bad- the last time we held this test, 27 people participated. Seven went to the hospital, despite armor and striking into and with the shield. Admin has decided to no longer use this test.

What I want- Any ideas for a test that:

1)will indicate a persons natural response to being exhausted and overwhelmed;

2) Is mission specific;

3) Has a lower injury rate;

4) Can be conducted in a reasonable amount of time.


With the old test, we had a few huge, strong athletic men fail and some small, unassuming women pass. It really showed fighting heart, not just power.

I'd really appreciate some help with this one.

Rory

[Webmaster]

Oh for pete's sake, while stressful, exhausting and the possibility of injury exists, it really isn't that bad. I know of martial arts schools that do similar "stress tests" on students when testing for higher grades. The point of the test is to find out what sort of heart and spirit the candidate has. A written test isn't going to do it.

I would probably try and take a different approach. Talk with some of the other officers and get their ideas on other ways to do the test, but at the same time, come up with arguments as to why the current test has validity. Other than take, I cannot think of anything that is better, meets your criteria, and still accomplishes the desired reason for the test.

Friggin politicians.... :mad:

[Ramirez]

Hi Rory, how serious were the injuries? I agree with the webmaster, it sounds more physically taxing that dangerous but
I could see admin being a bit worried about law suits.

The first part sounds okay, it does not look like there might be much in the way of serious injury there, even the second part does not sound that bad, we do something like this at our club and have not had a problem but we do it on a wrestling mat so any falls are well cushioned. Do the testers know how to breakfall?


See if you can find a good wrestling mat instead of a ring.

[Bad Karma]

I think it's in the ingredients. How are you supposed to be injury free when being exhausted and overwhelmed are in the criteria? Let these people who wanna change it - do it. I think they are losing touch with the job demands and the need for realistic training.

Peace

[RA Miller]

BK- I have to agree with the "losing touch". Unfortunately, the decision has been made. We've been batting around alternatives for months with nothing that comes close.

Robert and Ramirez- Remember these are strong people and natural fighters. The injuries were one concussion, broken bones in the hand, broken ribs, kidney failure (dehydration/not prepared-not an impact injury), dislocated ulna, spine compression.... the seventh one is slipping my memory right now.

Anyway, these were going about 80% in armor with pads... you see why I'm skeptical about claims of full contact ;)

Thanks, everyone.

Rory

[Ramirez]

Hi Rory, from those injuries it does sound like you should ratchet it down a bit (the guy who got dehydrated should have been more prepared though) , I guess I did not realize how intense it was from your description.

How about the subject going 3 3 minute rounds of grappling with a fresh opponent each time, comparable body weights? If the opponent taps out early, the next guy gets right in there. That would probably take me to the point of throwing up.

[Bad Karma]

Rory, I'll ask one of our NCO's this coming drill what they do at his civilian place of duty. He's a Lt. at a medium security prison but currently on active duty orders while our unit is overseas. He may have something to offer...

Peace

[Jeff C.]

Rory,

The test doesn't sound that bad, which makes me believe that the participants need more training before attempting the test. Perhaps focus on the training is more important than testing their training right now, IF their training is inadequate.

It is hard to tell if that is the case without more detail. What is your assessment of their training/skill level?

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Bad Karma]

Rory, I went to the unit and had him read your post yesterday. He said they didn't do anything like that and had nothing to offer as an alternative. He did say most of their injuries (like those you posted) come from training for cell extractions AND training with the electronic shield. From his description, I think I would like to see that shield in action - LOL! Regardless, his administration doesn't give them grief over the injuries they obtain from training.

Peace

[RA Miller]

Jeff-

There was a definite experience gap in the injuries. Two team members were injured. One had the hand he was holding the bag with struck and a bone broken. The other (time to fess up) raised his shield to plaster me just as I was throwing a low hook punch and I broke two of his ribs. The other injuries were all recruits. So experience helped.

Conditioning might have been a factor in a number of the recruits. Oddly, the guy that had his kidneys shut down is in very good shape... he just took the test after a long night shift drinking nothing but coffee. Dehydration.

Tony, thanks for asking.

Rory

[wab25]

The wrestling mat sounds like a great addition, to soften the falls. Do you use boxing gloves? The testor could have is wrists taped like a boxer, and wear the larger softer boxing gloves ( as opposed to professional boxing gloves ). This would soften the impact for the ones receiving the blows, and protect the testers wrists and hands. Gloves shouldn't be a problem, because grappling is not allowed, and they could be put on in the 1 min rest before being attacked. Headgear might also help. Anyway, just my two cents.

[Jim]

Rory,

Some fair amount of water has passed under the bridge since you last posted this. What have been the changes so far?

[De_Franza]

perhaps everyone involved could write a petition explaining the merits of the test. like you said, an officer getting separated from his stack in a riot is going to have worse than dehydration. If everyone demands the test back, even those who broke a bone or three, that can't not make an impression. (then again, I tend to be an idealist). Maybe you can borrow some tests from one of the military branches.

The situation is madness, that they would lighten up the test. It's like letting someone 5'tall who can't do chinups be a green baret just because he really wants to. Madness. ANd it endagers the officers who pass this test and reduces the effectiveness of the force. Of course, you realize this already.

You could try being a bit of a hump and suggesting the same test, except the ring part is first, then the running. :D

[RA Miller]

Thanks for bringing this back up.

Jim, the change is that we went to a straight anaerobic physical test (sprint, drag, strike, drag, stairs sprint and then shoot) The shoot is interesting because everyone is sucking wind and has to shoot accurately at one of four silhouttes as directed by the range officer in a dim room. It doesn't have the same heart-check element, but being able to follow the range officers instructions ie "Right target, one shot!" when tired is a small indicator of judgement and discipline.

William, we did use wrestling mats and head protection. Boxing gloves may have helped. Good suggestions. Thanks.

The simple fact is that this test is done. LEO administration seems to be driven more by fear of liability (real or imagined, but then again fear is always imaginary) than by practicality. If you have any more ideas, I'd love to hear them and see if I can make them work.

Rory

[johenora]

I agree with Jeff C ,the Moderator and others.
The key issue appears to be test the TRAINING not kill your own troops or hamburger them just to find out their amount of heart or spirit.
The troops have to be in shape not dead or mangled. Can you visualize how many will be out on disability or out of the service?
Service connected disability.
I bet the operations' officers cringed from the results.
I'd hate to see their efficiency/fitness reports.
This does not sound like results oriented training.
More pre-opns training would have resuted in fewer injuries,if any.

[Jim]

Rory,

I was recently reading a book on ancient Mythology when I happened accross a part on a Celtic band of warriors who had as a standard test for joining them something similar (if not a little more 'warry').

The test was to have the applicant dig a hole to stand in thigh high and they had only their shield. Some members of the warband would then set about stabbing the contender with short shafted spears and if he managed to last long enough and wasn't cut at any time he was allowed to join the group.

I'll try and remember when I get home to write more details on this directly from the book.

[RA Miller]

Jim- The rest of the test for the Feanna was to run five miles through a forest being chased. In the course of the run you had to jump over something as high as your shoulders, go under something as low as your knees and pull a thorn from the sole of your foot, all without breaking stride.

When I read about this test in college, I of course immediately went out and did it. The spear dodging is the easiest part. I couldn't do any of the run tasks without altering stride.
Rory

[ACP]

This is actually something that a lot of Buddhist monks would do to test their spirit and their faith in some way. I can't seem to remember completely at the moment. It had to do with putting yourself in harms way, that I do remember. I read that from the "Japanese Art of War" by Thomas Cleary. And most of the Japanese warriors of past would do such similar training to test and harden the spirit. Master Funikoshi the founder of Shotokan had also put himself to such spirit training in his autobiography "Karate-Do My Way of Life" I believe he held a tatami mat while in Horse Stance during a typhoon on the roof of his hut in his home village as a youth. If I remember right he said to strengthen his spirit and his will. :karate:

I put myself through such training once or twice a year to test my spirit, but have no injuries to show at yet, it does give you a feeling of invurnerability afterwards though almost like I survived I am stronger for it. Just a lot of pain in the moment of the test. :D

I'll never forget my Karate Training as my Sensei was old school. :karate: :bow:

Adam C. Powers

[Jim]

Rory,

I won't publish what I said out loud on reading your post, suffice to say that I'm at work and the door outside to the shopping complex was open and I got a few looks my way. ;)

Re the Fianna, I have the following as a recounting from the Knights of the Round Table about this group:
'no man taken 'til in the ground a hole had been made, such as would reach the waist, and he put into it with his shield and a forearm's length of a hazel stick. Then must nine warriors, having nine spears, with a ten furrow's width between them and him, assail him and let fly at him. If he sustained injury, he was not received into the band.'

Where did you get the rest of the test from? Sounds like a good basis for BB testing methinks.

[Skye]

Why not just crouch down in the hole and pull your shield over like a lid?

[Jim]

Why not just crouch down in the hole and pull your shield over like a lid?
Given that both you and I (at least) thought of this, I bet it had probably been tried at one time. Either that or it's just the Australian in us. ;)

[RA Miller]

Rory,


Where did you get the rest of the test from? Sounds like a good basis for BB testing methinks.

Jim, I think it was from "Gods and Fighting Men"... but I read and was told a ton of Irish folklore growing up.

Speaking of Black belt tests, have you tried the one that "John F. Gilbey" aka Robert Smith advocates in "Sefret Fighting Arts of the World"?

Rory

[Jim]

Nup, but I'll have a look for it now (unless you feel able to provide links and/or a point by point section for it...).

[Jim]

At least one reviewer wasn't happy with it...

" Worst book I have ever read, January 15, 2004

Reviewer: Nancy Kilgallon from Philadelphia, PA United States
This book is a total waste of paper. I feel sorry for anyone who reads it, and am shocked that people actually found this book useful. It is the worst piece of literature I have ever read in my life. The styles and techniques profiled border on the absurd. I am indeed dumber for having read this piece of garbage. I would reccomend that anyone who thinks about buying this book should just watch Samuri Jack on cartoon network as his style is probably more believable than the laughable techniques "revealed" in this waste of ink. --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title

Still I'll track it down...

[RA Miller]

Jim- Secret Fighting Arts of the World was written as a joke.

I picked it up a couple of decades ago, read it, though "What a load of crap" and put it on the shelf. The I found out that "John F. Gilbey" was a psuedonym for Robert W. Smith. Ring a bell?

Donn Draeger's roommate during the Kodokan period, author of dozens of books on Asian Martial arts, former CIA....

So I re-read it. About a decade later. Some of it was a joke, alot of it was unsubstantiated rumor and some of it was he just didn't want his real name attatched to. Worth a read, especially with a beer.

Now, yet another decade later, he devoted a chapter to it in "Martial Musings".

Rory

[Jim]

Too bad he didn't write an intro with a 'tongue in cheek' approach. But maybe that's part of the joke. I like it. It appeals to the Australian in me... :D

[J.J.Smith]

In reply to original, don't know if you are still looking for alternatives, but how about a similar situation to what has already been mentioned by other posters (more pads/safer) except either blind fold them, or swab their eyes with mace.

[Jim]

or swab their eyes with mace.
Now that's just plain evil...

[RA Miller]

We do something similar already.
Part of the pre-qual is to take a full face shot with the hottest OC on the market, then demonstrate baton, hand, elbow, and knee strikes; cover a threat with a weapon and give verbal commands, safeley search and handcuff the threat, escort the threat through a locked door...

We've fought after taking an OC hit, too but Administration would definitely not go for it as part of the test.

Rory

[Bri Thai]

Gilbey's book is an all time classic. Real enough to merit scorn, but silly enough to merit a good laugh.

By the wa, many of the techniques are based on real ones anyway......