Is TKD really no good in a "real" fight?

[Lord Henry]

Right off the bat I want to say that I don't want to start any fights with this topic. I don't want to talk about whether TKD is, or should be, a sport or a martial art and I don't want to get into the WTF verses ITF debate.

What I'm interested in is that there seems to be a general acceptance (I find it here on budoseek, on other websites, and even from some people at my dojong) that WKD is not very effective in a "real" (for that read "getting started on in the street") fight.

Where I train we occasionally practice TKD in it's Olympic form (which I enjoy but I don't want it to be the focus of this thread). However, for the most part we practice what I think of as TKD as a martial art. We practice kicks and hand strikes to all areas of the body, elbow and knee strikes, throws and joint locks. We probably spend 50% of the time purely on kicks and the other 50% on the rest.

Now I freely admit that I have little experience of other martial arts. However, other than a lack of wrestling and ground work I feel that all of the bases are covered in what I'm taught. I also feel that many of the moves and combinations that we learn bear some similarity to what I see in Muay Thai, which generally is considered a good "street fighting" martial art.

So, sorry for my long preamble, but my questions are these: 1) Is it fair to say that TKD is not a good martial art for "real" fights, and 2) if so, why and what makes other arts better suited?

Thanks as always.

Owen

[Eliz]

Right off the bat I want to say that I don't want to start any fights with this topic. I don't want to talk about whether TKD is, or should be, a sport or a martial art and I don't want to get into the WTF verses ITF debate.

What I'm interested in is that there seems to be a general acceptance (I find it here on budoseek, on other websites, and even from some people at my dojong) that WKD is not very effective in a "real" (for that read "getting started on in the street") fight.

Where I train we occasionally practice TKD in it's Olympic form (which I enjoy but I don't want it to be the focus of this thread). However, for the most part we practice what I think of as TKD as a martial art. We practice kicks and hand strikes to all areas of the body, elbow and knee strikes, throws and joint locks. We probably spend 50% of the time purely on kicks and the other 50% on the rest.

Now I freely admit that I have little experience of other martial arts. However, other than a lack of wrestling and ground work I feel that all of the bases are covered in what I'm taught. I also feel that many of the moves and combinations that we learn bear some similarity to what I see in Muay Thai, which generally is considered a good "street fighting" martial art.

So, sorry for my long preamble, but my questions are these: 1) Is it fair to say that TKD is not a good martial art for "real" fights, and 2) if so, why and what makes other arts better suited?

Thanks as always.

Owen

The short answer: It depends entirely on the focus of your dojang and whether or not you are being presented with real attacks.

Some dojangs train for competition, some have a heavy concentration in tradition and forms work, but I know there are a few schools around here that really put a huge emphasis on street defense.

I think most would agree that kicking, blocking and punching are more then acceptable methods of defense.

What is missing in TKD, in my opinion, is ground work and joint locks.

Now that is just my short answer (I have to get dinner started). Hopefully some others will chime in here with a few more details. :)

[doubleouch]

What's a "real fight?" Do what makes you happy. If you train TKD somewhere for a while and are still wondering then it means there is a problem with the training methods at your school. Practice should closely mimic the event being trained for. If your practice looks way different than the event YOU think you are training for then you'll never know if you are getting functional. Or, you are actually training for some other different kind of event.

[Tony Dismukes]

I think Elizabeth and Cane are on the money.

Way back when I trained in TKD, many years ago, the curriculum was something like the following.

1) Repetition of various kicks. There was no distinction made between kicks that were effective for self-defense and those that were (at best) useful for sport or demonstrations.*

2) Forms. These were clearly derived from Shotokan karate and involved stepping around in low, wide stances, demonstrating hard-style blocks and punches.

3) Sparring. This involved completely different body mechanics and techniques from the forms. Participants would bounce around on their toes and throw kicks to the limited target areas allowed by the rules. The low stances and hard-style blocks from the forms were never used.

4) Self-defense. Once again, the body dynamics and techniques were pretty much completely different from the forms and the sparring. This mostly involved pre-set defenses against various grabs or other basic attacks that were performed in a static and not very realistic manner.

5) One-step sparring. This was more of a blend between the forms and self-defense than it was anything to do with the sparring. In these exercises, the "attacker" would step forward with a lunge punch from too far away, so that full extension the fist would not quite reach the "defender", and leave the punch fully extended. The the defender would "block" the punch and perform some sort of pre-set counter.

*(When I asked my instructor after class if the straight-legged inside-to-outside crescent kick to the head was really an effective street technique, his response was "You no worry about that. You train hard two years, you get black belt, you fight good.")

Needless to say, I would not consider this sort of training to be effective for developing self-defense skills. If I thought that my limited exposure to TKD was representative of all TKD schools, then I would have a very low opinion of the art. However, I'm quite sure that there are a lot of TKD schools out there which do a much better job of training students for self-defense. You just have to look at how the individual instructor is presenting the art.

[doubleouch]

That's funny Tony. I wonder how many of us had that exact same experience... We were all training in the dark back in the days before the UFC came along.

[Prince Loeffler]

How does one define a style in a "real" fight ? If I punch him in the face and I trained in TKD , would I being doing a karate style "fight" ?

[Jonathan Randall]

I think a better way to phrase the question would be this:

"Can TKD be any good in a fight?".


Answer:

Of course it can, depending upon how it is taught and trained in. Tony's done an excellent job of breaking down the TKD experience many of us had, and the limitations thereof, but as Eliz Seuferling stated, groundwork and joint locks are limited and you do need some exposure to this as well. Ok, the TKD instructor down the street from where I used to live obtained a purple belt in GJJ and now gives workshops on such skills. I bet there are folks like this in your area as well.

[Tony Dismukes]

Just in case it's not clear from the description, my actual complaints about my TKD experience were as follows:

1) The forms, sparring, and "self-defense" all relied on completely different body mechanics, so practicing one did nothing to reinforce the others. In the event of a real fight, which set of movements would you fall back on?

2) Sparring rules disallowed 90 - 95% of the attacks that a real attacker might throw at you. (Of course, sparring can never fully emulate a real fight, but this was ridiculous.)

3) Practicing defenses against punches that couldn't even reach you in the first place teaches bad distancing and timing.

4) Emphasis on the flashy parts of the curriculum over the reliable "bread-and-butter" techniques.

5) "You train hard two years, you get black belt, you fight good." - Low standards to attract students and tempt them with belt ranks instead of challenging training experiences.

6) "Self-defense" techniques practiced against static, unrealistic attacks.

None of these flaws are necessarily inherent to the martial art of Tae Kwon Do - they're just part of how it's being taught in certain schools. A good instructor can certainly teach TKD without falling into these mistakes, and I'm certain that many do. Such an instructor should produce students who can do very well in the unarmed striking aspects of a real fight.

[David Craik]

Tae Kwon Do is the standard martial art of the South Korean military, I've sparred with their guys on a few occasions and think they would do very well in a 'real' fight. So I guess it depends on your dojang, the TKD they do and I did in the '80s doesn't look much like the TKD I have seen today.

[doubleouch]

Well put Tony. That was exactly my experience with TKD.

[Lord Henry]

As always thank you all for the insightful responses. As a couple of people have legitimately raised the issue of what I mean by a "real" fight I thought I would give a bit more detail. The reason that this question is on my mind at the moment is that I'm currently training as a defence barrister (or defence atterny for those of you in the US). When I qualify I will be spending a lot of time meeting clients in police stations, prisons, drug rehabilitation centres, and other environments where people are more likely than normal to become physically aggressive. Whilst I'm confident that I will mainly keep myself safe through situational awareness and talking people down before things get violent I would also like to know that I have a few tools in the bag if I have no other choice but a fight. I have therefore become a bit concerned by the opinion that some people seem to have that I might as well just take up sprinting rather than TKD for the purposes of self defence.

Tony has made some very interesting points. Possibly worryingly his first post pretty accurately describes how I have been instructed in TKD and on reflection I would say that points 1,2,3, and 6 of his second post are valid in relation to my training. In defence of my instructor I would say that he certainly does enforce high standards and expectations and when teaching techniques and combinations there is an strong emphasis on "what works" (don't throw a kick that they are likely to catch, don't turn your back on an opponent unless you are sure that you can land the strike without getting hit). However the comments about the artificial nature of sparring and one step sparring, and about the fractured nature of the curriculum, are completely fair.

Again I apologise for going on for so long but given what I've said do you think that I should be looking for a new dojong, looking for a new martial art, or am I panicking and should stick where I am?

Owen

[Tony Dismukes]

Again I apologise for going on for so long but given what I've said do you think that I should be looking for a new dojong, looking for a new martial art, or am I panicking and should stick where I am?


What are your reasons for training? If you primarily do TKD for the exercise, the sport, or the social interaction and you are happy at your current school, then I see no reason for you to change.

If self-defense is a major concern, then you might visit some other dojos in your area and see what they have to offer. Now that you know some concerns with your current instruction, you have some ideas of what to look for when evaluating other schools.

[Jonathan Randall]

Tae Kwon Do is the standard martial art of the South Korean military, I've sparred with their guys on a few occasions and think they would do very well in a 'real' fight. So I guess it depends on your dojang, the TKD they do and I did in the '80s doesn't look much like the TKD I have seen today.

Yup, and that is why the question would be better phrased as "Can TKD be effective", with an answer of YES - depending upon how it is trained. One of my 1980's TKD instructors learned in the ROK Armed Forces (he actually fought in the Korean War). His training was completely different than what I experienced in the ATA. Less techniques with him but drilled much harder and with more practicality. He also insisted students learn basic throws and how to fall and regularly drilled these. His purple belts had better rounded skills with far less flash than today's 3rd dans possess, IMHO. They might not have been able to tap someone with their foot as quickly, but if they hit you, you knew it.

[doubleouch]

In the situations you mentioned I think a flying side kick to the head would be inappropriate. Probalby dropping into a kata would not work either. I'd imagine some sort of grappling art suplimented with some good old fashioned boxing would be far better. For self defense most of what you learn in most TKD schools is extra. There is a lot of "art" that isn't really related to defending yourself at all. Everything you'd learn in a boxing ring would translate easily. As would most of the grappling at a good BJJ or Judo school.

[TonyU]

One doesn't drop into a kata.

[David Craik]

X 2.

'Drop into a kata'...:laugh:

[Lord Henry]

OK, I appreciate that I am going off (my own) topic, and if a mod feels that this thread now belongs somewhere else (though I'm not sure where) then I very much understand that. However, as everything that follows has been prompted by this thread (and in particular Tony's insightful and thought provoking posts) I thought that the right place for this post was here.

The responses to my original question have lead me to question what I am really looking for in a martial art. While the challenge and the fitness and the social experience are all important it is self defence that really matters to me. To me this means an art with a wide spread of skills (strikes, kicks, throws, locks, and groundwork). Further, for me especially, this means an art that is not rooted in physical strength (at 175cm and 65kg I'd be lucky to survive a stand up slug fest with your average cheerleader).

So, I have embarked on a quest for the 'right' art for me (or the right art for me at this time in my life). This week I have attended a Hapkido class and an Aikido class, and I have a Ju Jitsu class lined up for Thursday. I intend to start a separate thread to cover this little adventure that I'm on (any suggestions on where that should be posted?), but as this was that thread that started all of this I just wanted to say thank you to you all for starting me on the first step to what will hopefully be a better relationship with the martial arts.

Thank you all again,

Owen

[Eliz]

If you are posting about your journey, I would suggest General Martial Arts.

.......




Probalby dropping into a kata would not work

:luck: :laugh:

[Hack Foo Doe]

That's the Issue with TKD and TSD, regards their use of Hyungs, Poomse or Kata (as it will be called for the rest of the post)

Not much "REAL" use or application of the forms is taught. This is due to the Masters who were taught by their Japanese Instructors were not given the full training involved.

The Self-Defence techniques are there for what reason (its like buying a Dog and barking yourself)? Kata is all you need, if you know how to apply it that is.

If you look at "REAL" kata then you will see so many usages of the forms.

Take Naihanchi (Naifanchi chodan) many Japanese Karateka spent anywhere upto 10 years perfecting the form. There are so many usages of these movements. It is completely a Grappling form for both Stand-up AND Groundfighting.

Also if we take Chil Sung Ee Ro Hyung from TSD my version of this is completely different to the one I was taught. It involves locks, throws, Chokes, neck wrenches and even joint/bone breaks and dealing with multiple attackers

Real TKD and TSD are genuine arts that are really effective but the bouncy bouncy (no guard) tippy tappy spinny spinny Olympic style would not work in the street.

I think you should look more to another art formed by a famous Korean he went by the name of Mas Oyama and he founded Kyokushinkai - this is a more effective art for real street fights - it was formed from Sosai's experience as a street fighter etc and involve full contact fighting (in sparring no strikes to the face/joints are allowed but as experienced Martial artists you'll know how easy it is to strike those areas anyways).

I hope I have not offended anyone as it was not the direction of my post, just stating my observations (My Uncle was/is 4th Degree in TKD)

:bow:

[Tony Dismukes]

None of these flaws are necessarily inherent to the martial art of Tae Kwon Do - they're just part of how it's being taught in certain schools. A good instructor can certainly teach TKD without falling into these mistakes, and I'm certain that many do.

Okay, now I'm curious. I've heard consistently good things about the ROK approach to TKD, but they can't be the only ones doing a good job of teaching TKD for self-defense. I'd be interested to hear from any of our other TKD practitioners - how do your schools do in avoiding the six training flaws that I listed earlier?

[TonyU]

Take Naihanchi (Naifanchi chodan) many Japanese Karateka spent anywhere upto 10 years perfecting the form. There are so many usages of these movements. It is completely a Grappling form for both Stand-up AND Groundfighting.


Sigh, here we go again. No it doesn't. While there may be some similar techniques and principles Naihanchi nor karate has ground fighting. But, that's for another thread.

EDIT: The same thing was argued here (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=24631).

[Eliz]

Okay, now I'm curious. I've heard consistently good things about the ROK approach to TKD, but they can't be the only ones doing a good job of teaching TKD for self-defense. I'd be interested to hear from any of our other TKD practitioners - how do your schools do in avoiding the six training flaws that I listed earlier?

Tony,
I copied the six points below just for clarification


1) The forms, sparring, and "self-defense" all relied on completely different body mechanics, so practicing one did nothing to reinforce the others. In the event of a real fight, which set of movements would you fall back on?

2) Sparring rules disallowed 90 - 95% of the attacks that a real attacker might throw at you. (Of course, sparring can never fully emulate a real fight, but this was ridiculous.)

3) Practicing defenses against punches that couldn't even reach you in the first place teaches bad distancing and timing.

4) Emphasis on the flashy parts of the curriculum over the reliable "bread-and-butter" techniques.

5) "You train hard two years, you get black belt, you fight good." - Low standards to attract students and tempt them with belt ranks instead of challenging training experiences.

6) "Self-defense" techniques practiced against static, unrealistic attacks.



Now to answer your question

Applications were always taught with the form. In other words, the form was taught in segments, after each segment, we would pair up and practice the applications. The philosophies and interpretations of the forms were also taught. During form review, the applications were more like sparring.

As to #2: TKD is also a sport and sports have rules. Out of my 20 years as a TKD practitioner, I have only spent 2 years [part-time] in a dojang that placed a heavy emphasis on competition. Students did not go there to learn a traditional Martial Art, they went there to train to become international competitors.

#3 #5 & #6: Get rich off of giving crappy instruction. That one is easy to avoid: Stay poor! :laugh: (All kidding aside, there are a lot of quality dojangs out there. Students just have to look hard to find them as they do not always have websites and such.

#4: As most of my experience has been in traditional learning, we actually never emphasised the flashier kicks. The body was always the target, kicks to the head were discouraged, and very few jumping kicks were ever taught. With the exception of maybe 2 or 3 jumping kicks, most are pretty useless and they tear up your body. Thats a no go in my book.

[Tony Dismukes]

Thanks, Eliz. That's the sort of thing I was hoping to hear.

One question regarding #2 - when you're not training for sport competition, what sort of rules to you use for sparring?

[Eliz]

Thanks, Eliz. That's the sort of thing I was hoping to hear.

One question regarding #2 - when you're not training for sport competition, what sort of rules to you use for sparring?

I hate to answer a perfectly good question with, "It depends," but in reality - it depends.

It depends on the class
The students and how advanced they are
How much I trust them

In general - mid-ranked and upper ranked teens and adults - I will ask for controlled contact.

Kicks to the face and head are permissable but discouraged. Technically, they are legal and allowed.
I discourage them both for technical reasons and for selfish reasons. Technically, unless there is a height advantage, there are issues of balance and strength. Selfishly, I hate blood on my mats. Drawing blood is not necessarily a sign of excessive force - it can be, but not always. Spilling body fluids means stopping the class and performing the state regulated clean up proceedures.

Punches to the head are all good but they need to be controlled. There are always a few students that like to go silly on head punches and I am always on the look out for them.

The back is iffy - technically nothing is allowed directly to the backbone but that is subjective. Many of the kicks wrap around (Oly hogues are not usually worn in traditional dojangs so the back is unprotected). Was this a normal wrap around kick or a close contact hook kick wherein the heel of the foot made hard contact to the backbone?

Throat, neck, groin and knees - stay away from them

Lower leveled classes or younger students: I vary the sparring to include no contact from the shoulders up or belt down, maybe another day will be all belt level kicks, another day all chest level punches, another day we may do the softest contact possible while still making contact, another day we may focus on combinations that include head punches or kicks, etc. I try to make it interesting and fun while still encompassing the learning mode. This is an important stage as you really do not want students to get hurt or become fearful of getting hurt. But in the same token, you want them to learn.

Some students just pose problems and I keep assistants on hand specifically for them.

[kbarrett]

All martial arts work, it's up to each individual student to make their martial art work for them, by finding it's strenghs and weaknesses you'll learn alot about your martial art. You need to keep the strong parts strong, and work on any weaknesses that there may be, so they'll be strong also, when needed.

Sincerely
Ken Barrett

[ASKKMA]

How many of you have any REAL street fighting experience. Not MMA, I mean a REAL fight where your life was on the line. I have been unfourtunate enough over the past 19 years to have been in a few. I've studied in that period of time American Karate, Hapkido Sun Moo Kwan & Ho Am Taekwondo, Kempo & a few others.

Was the training I received in TKD effective in keeping me from getting my head pounded in? Simple answer, yes. It seems since the mid 90s & UFC came into the picture, a lot of people think that the only effective fighting method is BJJ. The young lady earlier commented that TKD lacks joint locks & a ground game. The same can be said for BJJ in the respect that it is severely lacking in its standup game.

I respect all martial arts. Different people are better suited for different martial arts. I am a kicker so TKD fits me perfectly.

With that being said I have never thought much of olympic style TKD. Who fights with their hands at their side like that anyway. A skilled TKD artist can go toe-to-toe with any other skilled martial artist around.

[TonyU]

How many of you have any REAL street fighting experience.
Actually, yes, many of us has. I think may of us are in agreement and has been stated many times over. It's not what you train in but how you train in it. Unfortunately many styles, TKD, being a top one karate being another, has lost it's way in practical training and application.

[ASKKMA]

Actually, yes, many of us has.

I assumed some did but it seems that there are too many people on these boards that like to sit behind keyboards giving their $0.02 about things they don't have a clue about. No disrespect intended to anyone here :)

[ASKKMA]

Actually, yes, many of us has. I think may of us are in agreement and has been stated many times over. It's not what you train in but how you train in it. Unfortunately many styles, TKD, being a top one karate being another, has lost it's way in practical training and application.


I'd have to agree with that. Its sad to see ANY martial art get to that point. It does bother me to see TKD getting such a bad rap from folks. Sadly, it can be blamed on these 5th dan "beer belly" instructors teaching TKD, Karate, TSD, etc, etc to the general public giving black belts out like Halloween candy. Nothing I can do about that but train hard, hold my self true to the art & hope that I can be a positive example of the way TKD is practiced :)

[Tony Dismukes]

Jeffrey, if you read the previous responses carefully, you'll see that just about all of us agree that the issue is how an art is trained.

"The young lady" who "earlier commented that TKD lacks joint locks & a ground game" is a Tae Kwon Do instructor with many years of experience in the art. I think you can rest assured that she was not intending to trash TKD nor was she speaking on a subject she doesn't have a clue about.

If you check my earlier posts, I detailed what I see as the unfortunate flaws in how the art was taught in the schools where I and many others encountered it. I did ask for information in how TKD is trained in schools that have a more realistic focus, and Eliz was kind enough to give some info on how she teaches. Since you've apparently had good experiences with TKD, perhaps you could also explain what your training is like and how your school avoids the pitfalls I mentioned?

[Jonathan Randall]

I assumed some did but it seems that there are too many people on these boards that like to sit behind keyboards giving their $0.02 about things they don't have a clue about. No disrespect intended to anyone here :)

This particular board is owned and operated by those who do. Check some of the previous posts and threads and you'll find just about the highest proportion of Armed Forces/LEO folks on any MA board on the net.

As to TKD, Eliz said (or wrote!) it all, IMO. TKD rocks - if trained and taught well - which, unfortunately, it rarely is.

[Eliz]

Thanks Tony D and Jonathan for the kind words and support.

Thanks too to Jeffrey for the "Young lady" remark - you are my new best friend! :D

Jeffrey, my comment about the ground game was based on the fact that I also train in a seperate traditional Hapkido school. This school uses very few kicks and does not resemble TKD in the least. The two (TKD and traditional HKD) compliment each other well.

I can understand why so many TKD schools merge in HKD elements. And I can understand why so many HKD schools merge in TKD elements. Truly, it is well rounded training. I still am glad that I learned the two styles as seperate and distinctly unique Martial Arts.

I hope that clarifies my remark a little.

As for real life experience, I am HAPPY to report that my real life exposure is limited, although it has been useful to me in staying off additional problems. May I live out the rest of my years with the same limited experiences. ;) I think you will find many members here, however, who are well versed in real life experience. Funny, they are frequently the quitest ones about their experiences.

I will second Tony D. - we would love to hear more about your training.

[ASKKMA]

Thanks Tony D and Jonathan for the kind words and support.

Thanks too to Jeffrey for the "Young lady" remark - you are my new best friend! :D

Jeffrey, my comment about the ground game was based on the fact that I also train in a seperate traditional Hapkido school. This school uses very few kicks and does not resemble TKD in the least. The two (TKD and traditional HKD) compliment each other well.

I can understand why so many TKD schools merge in HKD elements. And I can understand why so many HKD schools merge in TKD elements. Truly, it is well rounded training. I still am glad that I learned the two styles as seperate and distinctly unique Martial Arts.

I hope that clarifies my remark a little.

As for real life experience, I am HAPPY to report that my real life exposure is limited, although it has been useful to me in staying off additional problems. May I live out the rest of my years with the same limited experiences. ;) I think you will find many members here, however, who are well versed in real life experience. Funny, they are frequently the quitest ones about their experiences.

I will second Tony D. - we would love to hear more about your training.


Yes Maam. I meant no disrespect to you in any way. You look like a "Young Lady" to me & that is what I meant :)

Sorry if I came across wrong in my post Ladies & Gentlemen. I hear so much bashing from people sometimes I tend to jump the gun.

Excellent points made by Miss Seuferling. :)

[doubleouch]

Here's a quote from my instructor related to this topic of discussion. Sorry it's so long...
"
Saturday, July 30, 2005
Why Aliveness?. . . .


I have traveled literally all over the world over the last several Years. And it has been a great privilege for me to do so. The reason for my travels have been seminars, and regardless of where I am I always start them the same way. I explain that my main message, the thing I am most interested in sharing with people, with communicating effectively, is the message of Aliveness.

Occasionally I am asked why I bother? Why not just teach some functional fighting skills, and leave it at that. Why explain the process? Why discuss the differences? In short, why is Alivenes the main message?

And my answer to that can be summed up in four words. . it is SO healthy!

When our intentions regarding the activity we are engaging in are clear, honest, and open, then that 'thing' (activity-event) becomes incredibly healthy.

It is about Authenticity.


In other words, if someone says "I do Tai Chi because I find it a relaxing form of moving meditation". . . .I say, rock on! In fact, I might even join them.

However, if someone says "no need for Doctors Tai Chi will cure your cancer." Then I may need to question that. And that questioning is also incredibly healthy. Likewise, if they say "Tai Chi will serve as a wonderful form of self defense". . .then I will also want to question that. Both those claims, 'cures cancer', and 'good for self defense', are verifiable within objective reality. And as such, if we are really interested in Truth with the capitol T, then not only should we question those statements, I believe we have an obligation to.

I think that is common sense. When we don't question such statements within ourselves, and accept them solely at face value, then we find ourselves lost, deceived, and often hurt.

Granted, one of those things (cures cancer) may be far more serious then the other. But both are equally irresponsible, and I never claimed to have the most 'serious' job. Just a blessed one.

So let me be clear about what I mean when I say 'question'.


We come to the question of speaking publicly on it. And to be clear, I don't advocate that for everyone. In fact, the only thing I believe matters is that we are honest within our own self about our own intentions. And that we remain skeptical, and question all forms, and statements of authority. . .for ourselves.

Whether or not someone then goes out and speaks to others about their findings is an individual thing. I can only say I am really-really grateful that some people do.

I think of the Amazing Randi, who has been debunking charlatans like Uri Geller for well over 30 Years. His writings had a great impact on me when I was a teenager. I remember watching Uri Geller on television and feeling like something was just not 'right'. And his book helped validate my own critical thinking on the matter.

And Lord knows that if this world could use a little more of something, then 'critical thinking' would rank VERY high on that list. Just under Love and Compassion, in my opinion.


I felt much the same about Martial Arts as I think Randi and many others felt about the scams of Uri Geller. I felt like I had been deceived, whether intentionally, or through ignorance. But deceived either way. And that is never a good way to feel. And it can, and does, happen to us all. Uri Geller deceived a large pool of highly educated scientists at the Stanford Research Institute, using what amounted to poor magic tricks. Just as thousands of people have been deceived by fraudulent Martial Arts, only to find out later that what they where being taught might in reality get them hurt. Especially if they believed it worked! (Witness the first few UFC's for an example).

Did they want to believe, or where they just naive?

I have a good friend who recently sat in on an interview with a major Martial Arts figure. This man being interviewed is known as one of the leading authorities in "pressure points". . .which he claims are hidden within 'katas'. When asked why we don't see this amazing pressure point knock outs in full contact sports, he said "they have been banned". When pressed as to why that would stop a grappler from striking a point on the body which was legal within most sports, he said "well you have to hit three points almost at the sametime, and it depends on what time of day it is!". I am paraphrasing from memory, but I promise the exact quotes would be equally absurd. He then explained how these points are different on men and woman, and which order they need to be struck. My friend then asked, "what if the guy you are fighting was gay? Would you use the male points, or the female points?" And this person sat very still for a moment, and then he said "use the female points."

Sadly, he was deadly serious.

This man then went on to explain how you can knock someone down using just a sound. . .which he began to make. My friend emulated the sound, and then asked, "If I was in that corner of the room making this sound, and someone else was in the other corner making this sound, would you consider it a mass attack?" After some thought the man answered, "yes".

And no, I am not kidding.


So I still see Aliveness as the core message.

When Aliveness is compromised on, the entire structure falls apart. This happens because Authenticity is lost. And the results are not healthy.

But when Aliveness is maintained, then everything else seems to come right in the end. And once the proper methods for drilling and Coaching are added in, the sky is really the limit in terms of potential.

So having stated that, I will start off this BLOG with a basic Aliveness Q & A. These answers have been gathered over many Years, and all these questions have been asked many hundreds of times. This section details the answers we have given, time and time again.

-Enjoy

"In considering whether being Alive is good, we must realize that what matters is not what the mind thinks about being, but only the experience of being. And this experience can only be had when the mind is not."
- Robert Powell


* * *

What is Aliveness?


Aliveness is timing, energy, and motion.

What do you mean by timing, energy, & motion?

for something to be truly alive in what we do then it has have three key elements, movement, timing, and energy (resistance). If you are missing any one of these then it is not Alive.

Movement means real footwork, not contrived, not in a pattern.... on the ground it means exactly that also... movement.... if the person is just laying there, not moving as you apply your lock or move....that is not Alive. In the clinch its the same... .pushing, pulling, moving.

Timing is of course just that.... if its in a predictable rhythm, a pattern, a repeatable series of sets, then you are not acquiring or developing timing, just motion speed.

And of course energy.... swing the stick like someone would really swing it.... dont stop at centerline. Punch with the energy of someone who wants to hit you. Not locking your arm out so your partner can look good doing the destruction, or trap, or silat sweep, etc.

You must move, have a sense of timing, and progressive resistance


Why do you place so much emphasis on this point as opposed to others?

Aliveness is everything. If a person grasps the principle and truly understands what is mean by it. . then they can never be ********ted again . Thats why I emphasize it so much. I am also constantly being asked....whats better.... this or that. . this style or that style....why don't you do this drill anymore...why do you say this doesn't work.... The answer to all those questions is Aliveness........so once they grasp what that means then about one thousand and one of their questions are answered for them. It's everything.

However, if someone wants to collect a certificate from a well known "Sifu", or look cool doing two person forms, then they will not care or pay attention to the concept of Aliveness.

Why do people then find the Aliveness concept so difficult to accept?

I think that is because when some people start to train Alive, and expose their students to Alive training, they often have to throw out a major portion of the curriculum they learned before. This is because it is shown to not work when applied against a resisting opponent. And Aliveness gauges that very quickly.

All of the sudden the premium is placed on performance. And Arts that perform well. . .boxing, wrestling, Judo, Muay Thai, BJJ, and others, become the base.

What is the distinction between "delivery systems", & personal "style"?

"Style" is always very individual.Each fighter has his/her own "style". And it's aquired only through sparring and Alive training. In that action against a resisting opponent the athlete discovers how to make the delivery system work for them. That is their "style".

However, Delivery Systems always remain fairly constant, regardless of the individual body.

In other words, there is a proper way to put on a rear naked choke. And as long as humans have the same design to their bodies, that 'technique' will remain the same. That choke is an example of "delivery system".

That is why the typical JKDC method of a buffet aproach, picking and choosing from many arts regardless of the delivery system, is such a poor idea. Without solid skill in the basics of the delivery systems of stand up, clinch, and ground, you will not be able to fight, or apply any of the information. Sticking to the simple basics, drilling Alive, and sparring, is the only way we have found to aquire real functional skill.

Delivery systems can be tested, and it's obvious what works and what does not. MMA has shown the boxing, wrestling, and BJJ delivery systems to be of great value. So the delivery systems fighters choose tend to all be the same. Someone trained in say 'silat', without that background in the functional delivery systems mentioned above, would be unable to compete in MMA. They cannot defend themselves against such opponents.

However, each fighter naturaly develops their own style, as they practice, drill, spar, and fight. No two BJJ fighters are the same, yet they all use the same delivery system. No two boxers are the same, yet they all use the same delivery systems.

It's all very simple and clear.


But isn't ALL just up to the individual.
There are no superior delivery systems are there?

There is a proper way to perform a rear naked choke that will allow you to achive the desired results as quickly and efficently as possible. This is simply a reality. Likewise, we there is a proper way to throw a right cross. Their may be many variations of 'how' it is thrown. . .this is 'style' and every boxer will have his own. But the fundamental body mechanics, such as rotation of the hips, are based on the laws of gravity and motion, and this is the delivery system.

Whether people choose to acknowledge that reality does not change the truism.

As an example, everyone who teaches functional ground fighting these days is incorporating the guard, mount, etc. They may call it Submission wrestling, but, it's the same delivery system.

Since the Brazilians brought that delivery system to prominence I feel it's important for me to give them credit. But ultimately, the name of the style is not important. The reality that the delivery system is backed by principles of leverage and timing, and works against resisting opponents; that is what is important.

Can you give me a better example of what you mean when you say 'delivery system'?

Sure, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu could be called a 'style'. Shooto could be called a 'style'. But, if you took a close look at two of the top players, as an example I will say Rumino Sato of Shooto, and Renzo Gracie of BJJ, then you would see that they are using the same delivery system. They both train the same positions, guard, mount, crossides, head and arm, etc. The same submissions, armbars, leg locks, chokes, etc. And the same types of drills, passing the guard, drilling leg locks, etc. So they essentially train in the same delivery system. So the Shooto, BJJ name becomes moot at that point.

Without that delivery system neither one would be as good of a fighter on the ground. That is just a fact. Imagine if Sato didn't know what the guard was, or could never hold that position, or if Renzo didn't train his escapes from mount.

So a delivery system is just that, a system of body mechanics, or movements.

Here is another example, both JJ Machado and Rigan Machado teach Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. If you asked them to teach you a shoulderlock from mount position I am sure they would both teach you the same method of delivery. How to set your weight, hold position, crank the joint, etc. That is because there is a best known way to do this. That may not be the politically correct thing to say, but it is the truth.

Now as far as 'style' goes. Both have a totally different style. Rigan is slow and crushing, and works an amazing top game that makes you feel like a crushed bug. JJ has a fast, machine gun like, attacking game from the guard. JJ puts the word active into his guard game in a whole new way. So they both have very different styles, but the same delivery system. "

Matt Thornton- Straight Blast Gym

[Burzum]

Well TKD was defanged ages ago when it was molded more or less into a sport. It's 99.9% kicking. Now theres nothing wrong with kicking provided a person faced with a real encounter on the street throws the right type of kick & has the space to throw that kick. TKD has it's limitations but then so does just about all other arts'/systems' as well.


BJJ for instance only will work one on one & lets face it. The last place you want to end up on the street in on the ground as more times than not the type of person that will jump you will not be alone. That being said Kung Fu, Karate, Aikido & the lot all have strong & weak points. It really comes down to the person with their back against the wall in a street encounter that will determine the outcome. Some talk the talk while others can walk the walk. It's as simple as that really.:mad:

[kbarrett]

You really can't know how your going to respond in a street fight until it actually happens, the only thing you can do is train hard and make sure that your self-defense is sharp, simple and of good quality, so I'll be there when called on.

Also your going to have to get mean real mean and fight with everything you've got, a street fight is dirty and unforgivening, unliked the dojo, where your surroundings are pleasant and safe.

Like everybody's said so many time before it's not the style, it all about the person and hard they train with in that style of MA.

Sincerely
Ken Barrett

[Uncon214]

Really this all depends on how you train. If you train with a realistic air, then yes it's great for the striking/combative phase of a fight... If all you do is point spar then be prepared to push up daisies.

I am a taekwondo practitioner myself and have realized it all comes down to perception and training. I do not train for point sparring. I think it's totally ridiculous... fun... but ridiculous nonetheless. I train to go home at night, every night.

Any martial art is only as effective in the realm of self-defense as the student trains. If you train to score points, you'll score points. If you train to stay alive, then you'll (hopefully... Mr. Murphy is omnipresent) stay alive.

[Nick L.]

I assumed some did but it seems that there are too many people on these boards that like to sit behind keyboards giving their $0.02 about things they don't have a clue about. No disrespect intended to anyone here :)


I just want to know what "Shotkan" is? ;)

[kbarrett]

While I don't want to start a debate of whether point fighting is any good or not because it's been talked about to death.

It really dose depend on who's running the competition and the rules with in, I know when I was competing "light contact" to the head was allowed and "heay contact" to the body was also allowed.

Now with that being said, I will also say that I enjoyed dojang sparring even more than competition sparring, because in the dojang contact can be a lot heavier and we didn't have to stop for points.

Point sparring isn't MMaA or KickBoxing, it wasn't meant to be, but there can't be contact it just depends like I said on who running the competition and the rule they want to have with reards to contact.

Sincerely
Ken Barrett

[Adam G]

Goshin or modern Japanese Jujutsu is where its at for self defense. You can throw away all other martial arts IMO. Goshin JJJ covers every single aspect of a fight from stand up, take down and throws, ground work, multiple attackers, weapons. You name it Goshin JJJ covers it.
IMO its simply the most all round effective martial art, modern arts like Krav Maga or Goshin JJJ are goods for self defense .

[DragonMind]

Goshin or modern Japanese Jujutsu is where its at for self defense. You can throw away all other martial arts IMO. Goshin JJJ covers every single aspect of a fight from stand up, take down and throws, ground work, multiple attackers, weapons. You name it Goshin JJJ covers it.
IMO its simply the most all round effective martial art, modern arts like Krav Maga or Goshin JJJ are goods for self defense .
Really? Must be some really good crack you're smoking. And what arts do you have ANY experience in that you feel qualified to compare the breadth and depth of the significant multitude of arts?

[Adam G]

Woah, very polite post there buddy.
Yeah i been round but i don't have to justify myself to such a rude presumptuous thing like you now do i?

Notice the IMO, or am i not allowed one?

[Prince Loeffler]

Woah, very polite post there buddy.
Yeah i been round but i don't have to justify myself to such a rude presumptuous thing like you now do i?

Notice the IMO, or am i not allowed one?


You're truly entitled to state your own personal opinion. To re-state Dragonmind's inquiry regarding your martial arts experiences and background:

what arts do you have ANY experience in that you feel qualified to compare the breadth and depth of the significant multitude of arts?


I've always wanted to learn more about martial arts from experienced individual in this community.

Thank you and awaiting your professional summation on why Goshin JJJ is an art worthy above all.

[Adam G]

No worries.
Currently training Goshin jujitsu, Orange belt.
Judo up to orange belt.
Karate up to green.
Muay Thai for almost a year and a half.
10 years of High contact Rugby union and league.
Year of Universal self defense ( TKD ) .
Body board / surf almost everyday.
Grew up on the street, was stupid and messed round with street gangs.
Mother was murdered , stabbed to death.
Many friends also not with us anymore.
Ive been cut, jumped and shot at.
Seen that much violence in my life its a crime.

After all of that, my thinking on Goshin Jujitsu is this.. It covers every aspect of a fight , and does so in the most efficient and controlled way possible.

I didn't say it was worthy above all.. I said it was the best martial art for self defense. Now if you wanna harness you Chi, maybe you would do Tai Chi, Sport, maybe judo BJJ or TKD.. For pure self defense IMO Goshin Jujitsu or maybe Krav maga is what ya want.

Just my opinion , but you no what they say about opinions.
There like an arse hole, everyone's got one. :D

[Eliz]

Yeah i been round but i don't have to justify myself to such a rude presumptuous thing like you now do i?


If you take the time to look through some of Barry's (Dragonmind) posts, you will find that he is not in the least bit rude - he is experienced and to the point. Many of us here value his input and experience.

The owner of this website very carefully picks and screens all of his moderators.




After all of that, my thinking on Goshin Jujitsu is this.. It covers every aspect of a fight , and does so in the most efficient and controlled way possible.

I think you will find many members here who are passionate about their primary style. The difference therein being, we rarely tout our primary practice as the big "it" [as you have done]. Experience has taught us that the effectiveness of a style is proven in the hands of the practitioner - something many non Goshin JJ practioners do daily.


I didn't say it was worthy above all..

:confused: Your earlier post said exactly that ....


You can throw away all other martial arts IMO.

..............................



I said it was the best martial art for self defense.

Grab a set of sticks and go play with Barry (Dragonmind) for a while. You may find your opinion somewhat changed


Just my opinion , but you no what they say about opinions.
There like an arse hole, everyone's got one. :D

Well that was very eloquently phrased. Thank you for that :rolleyes:

[Adam G]

Goshin or modern Japanese Jujutsu is where its at for self defense. You can throw away all other martial arts IMO.

Quote the whole thing next time....

If you think implying im a crack smoker is not rude, then we have different view on the meaning of rude...............

As i said in earlier post, Goshin JJJ take much from many arts, and put them into a compete system . You presume i think at other martial arts have no value, this is not the case.
What im saying is IMO, Goshin Jujitsu is the most compete MA for self defense, there's a reason cops come to us for pin holds,and arresting techniques, there's a reason it was taught to our soldiers in WW2. .Its called the grandfather of Japanese martial arts ,its been round the block a few times.

I understand what your saying about the practioners and their martial arts. But answer me this.
If you get people of the same size strength, reach and so on.
Does the art then come into play?
There are more efficient arts than others, lets not kid ourselves.

I love all martial arts and take as much as i can from all of them.
What i meant by"you can throw away other arts" is, if all you could train was one martial art in the world, it would be Goshin Jujitsu, We get to do everything anyways so ya wouldn't miss out on much .

[Adam G]

Grab a set of sticks and go play with Barry (Dragonmind) for a while. You may find your opinion somewhat changed

Thats Just the thing isnt it .... Id have to go grab a pair of sticks, because usually(like most people) i don't walk around the street with 2 sticks......

[jjaje]

Notice the IMO, or am i not allowed one?

Rule #10 (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=10752)

10. Do not use Instant Messenger slang or shorthand to make your posts. Posts should be typed in clear and concise language, with the aim of using correct spelling and punctuation in order to best facilitate communication with your fellow members.

Adding the IMO at the end of
You can throw away all other martial arts doesn't change the sentence, or make the intent or impact any different. It is just as bad as insulting someone, then adding the little smiley face at the end of the insult, :) it's still an insult.

So let's do an experiment, which sounds better
"Goshin or modern Japanese Jujutsu is where its at for self defense. You can throw away all other martial arts" coming from a very low ranking person in a few martial arts

or

"Although I'm new, when investigating systems, Goshin JJ impressed me the most as being well rounded for personal safety."

And my last rant, honest.


modern arts like Krav Maga or Goshin JJJ are goods for self defense .

And what is it with people's affection to automatically recommend Krav Maga? Seems like some people are being certified in weekend seminars to teach some versions of Krav Maga. Why do people who haven't ever trained in it (as you didn't list it in your training) automatically speak so highly of it? Is it just based on the magazine articles and marketing? Like all styles, there are very good Krav Maga schools, and there are some that are not as good.

[DragonMind]

My point was that despite your obvious enthusiasm for the art you study, you do not have the experience with other arts to make a valid comparison. I spent more than 35 years in Korean systems and more than a decade in Arnis and have a pretty fair idea of exactly what is in them.

I still learn things from my Japanese and Chinese and Filipino friends about their systems all of the time. The best I can say is "here is how we approach that concept/topic/idea". We compare notes and try to examine perceived weaknesses or gaps in what we see in each other's systems. Almost without fail, assuming the system or style is legitimate, what I or others saw as a deficiency was actually a lack of sufficiently deep understanding of that other art. For example, your list of things covered by Goshin JJ are equally well covered in Hapkido and Arnis. The key to misunderstanding though is the particular emphasis of the school or instructor that you may have observed. For example, if you watched my Arnis teacher/friend/mentor, Dan Anderson, for a few days you would likely come to the conclusion that he is a "stick man". Same for my Modular Blade and FCS instructors, Bram Frank and Ray Dionaldo; you'd think they are only "blade guys". I have taken a stick spanking from both Bram and Ray, and I've seen Dan go hell on wheels with blades. I assure you, these gentlemen are quite competent in areas you may not see often.

As for the smoking crack comment, I had noticed that you listed your age at 32. Such an ignorant statement as yours is generally excused in our teen-age members as simply a sign of the hopefully temporary condition of being young and stupid. Amazing how often those two go together... Anyways, given your age I felt I should give you the benefit of the doubt and attribute the stupid part to the influence of a mind-altering substance. Now that I see the actual significant lack of experience you do have outside your own mind, I suppose I shall have to ignore your chronological age and take your comments as if coming from a teenager.

By the way, one area of my Filipino training is called Latigo y Daga which translates to Whip and Blade. In fact, we cover many systematic approaches to weapons combinations (e.g. Espada y Daga, Baston y Daga, Doble Baston, Sarong y Daga) to examine not just how a single weapon is used but how multiple weapons of varying ranges/tactics/techniques are used in unison. How much experience do you have with that in your Goshin JJ? I've named it, do you cover it?

[kbarrett]

Adam, while I repsect your opinion and feelings about your MA, I also have to agree with what's already been said, everybody here on Budoseek can say the same thing about their MA and it's been mentioned more than once here all over Budoseek, it's not the MA it's the perosn studing that MA that makes it work.

Sincerely
Ken Barrett

[Abbax8]

No worries.
Currently training Goshin jujitsu, Orange belt.
How long does it take to get to Orange Belt in GJJ

Judo up to orange belt.
Which mean you have 1 to 2 years of judo. This means you do not know judo but are familiar with some judo techniques

Karate up to green.
See above reply to Judo

Muay Thai for almost a year and a half.
See above reply for judo and karate

10 years of High contact Rugby union and league.
Year of Universal self defense ( TKD ) .
Body board / surf almost everyday.
Grew up on the street, was stupid and messed round with street gangs.
Mother was murdered , stabbed to death.
Many friends also not with us anymore.
Ive been cut, jumped and shot at.
Seen that much violence in my life its a crime.

Sorry for mother. Being stupid and messing with street gangs may teach you be tough but does not give you insight into the intricasies of the various MA's.
Rugby is tough but not really pertinent to the discussion neither is surfing or boby boarding.


After all of that, my thinking on Goshin Jujitsu is this.. It covers every aspect of a fight , and does so in the most efficient and controlled way possible.

I didn't say it was worthy above all.. I said it was the best martial art for self defense. Now if you wanna harness you Chi, maybe you would do Tai Chi, Sport, maybe judo BJJ or TKD.. For pure self defense IMO Goshin Jujitsu or maybe Krav maga is what ya want.

Sport - Judo. What was the nature of your judo training? For competition? For self defense? For fitness? For the pure study of judo?


Just my opinion , but you no what they say about opinions.
There like an arse hole, everyone's got one. :D

And some opinions are less informed than others. I recommend you practice a bit of restraint in your posts. There are members here who have trained in one art longer than you have been alive. They will readily tell you they are still learning the basics of their art. From your post you have not been involved in any art for an appreciable period of time to make such a sweeping statement.

Welcome to BudoSeek!

Dennis

[Cliff Hargrave]

How come every wanna be tough guy grew up "on the streets" around gangs?

I grew up in a quiet little sub-division, was in high school sports, scouting, made good grades, and went to church on Sundays.... :)

[Adam G]

My point was that despite your obvious enthusiasm for the art you study, you do not have the experience with other arts to make a valid comparison. I spent more than 35 years in Korean systems and more than a decade in Arnis and have a pretty fair idea of exactly what is in them.

I still learn things from my Japanese and Chinese and Filipino friends about their systems all of the time. The best I can say is "here is how we approach that concept/topic/idea". We compare notes and try to examine perceived weaknesses or gaps in what we see in each other's systems. Almost without fail, assuming the system or style is legitimate, what I or others saw as a deficiency was actually a lack of sufficiently deep understanding of that other art. For example, your list of things covered by Goshin JJ are equally well covered in Hapkido and Arnis. The key to misunderstanding though is the particular emphasis of the school or instructor that you may have observed. For example, if you watched my Arnis teacher/friend/mentor, Dan Anderson, for a few days you would likely come to the conclusion that he is a "stick man". Same for my Modular Blade and FCS instructors, Bram Frank and Ray Dionaldo; you'd think they are only "blade guys". I have taken a stick spanking from both Bram and Ray, and I've seen Dan go hell on wheels with blades. I assure you, these gentlemen are quite competent in areas you may not see often.

As for the smoking crack comment, I had noticed that you listed your age at 32. Such an ignorant statement as yours is generally excused in our teen-age members as simply a sign of the hopefully temporary condition of being young and stupid. Amazing how often those two go together... Anyways, given your age I felt I should give you the benefit of the doubt and attribute the stupid part to the influence of a mind-altering substance. Now that I see the actual significant lack of experience you do have outside your own mind, I suppose I shall have to ignore your chronological age and take your comments as if coming from a teenager.

By the way, one area of my Filipino training is called Latigo y Daga which translates to Whip and Blade. In fact, we cover many systematic approaches to weapons combinations (e.g. Espada y Daga, Baston y Daga, Doble Baston, Sarong y Daga) to examine not just how a single weapon is used but how multiple weapons of varying ranges/tactics/techniques are used in unison. How much experience do you have with that in your Goshin JJ? I've named it, do you cover it?

Once again , very polite post there buddy..

Yea we have stick and blade techniques, but i wont start talking Japanese to make myself look good.
We have jo, sword, knife, bat/stick and gun techniques. Like i said, were a self defense art, we dont attack, we learn to receive and counter , or attack only with no other option.

Well ive been called Arrogant, a crack head, a teenager,Uniformed and tough guy, young and stupid.
Seems like im not the only one with issues on this site.. i may fit in yet :D

[Adam G]

Ok, sorry for being so pig headed. :D.

Im not saying im tough or hard cause i was in a gang guy's. What i meant by that is I've seen more violence than the average person, way more. So i have a pretty good understanding of what would work and what wouldn't.

Thanks for making the last 10 years of my martial arts training feel worthless.

Its taking me just over 2 years to progress to orange belt(and that's fast).

The Ive done Judo in two different time's, One was as a child at about the age of 5, got to orange.
The next was to help our take downs and pins for Rugby.

Surfing is great training for Martial arts. You have to make split seconds decisions and in many cases can be life or death.With almost every sport or martial arts its you that pushes the pace.. In the water your at the mercy of the sea and must deal with what ever is thrown your way, in split seconds. You cant panic, you drown. You gotta be mentally and psychically strong.

Man i feel like in under the media watch press with you guys quoting snippets of info ive posted to make me look bad... i meant for self defense..

[Erik]

The owner of this website very carefully picks and screens all of his moderators. He slips up every now and then... he let me in. :wink2:

I'm with Adam when he cites Rugby and surfing, as crazy as that sounds. He's right about the split second decisions in the midst of chaos and lots of sensory inputs. When I was bouncing I think the water polo helped as much as anything else.

But Adam, you'll get more mileage out of your argumentation if you express it like "I've done this and it seemed to work well for me here and this is why I think it did" as opposed using phrases like "best possible" or "most (anything)".

[moogong]

I think this thread has run it's course. Adam G might really Ali G pranking us with a moronic post but I can't prove it. The original question is if TKD works in a real fight and that has been covered many times over.

Thread closed.