Zen in the Martial Arts = Dead [Archive] - BudoSeek! Martial Arts Community Forums

Mekugi

10-25-2009, 21:21

Being one that is not latched to convention, I totally dislike and disagree with the notion of Zen in the martial arts. Especially the way it is taken in today, with a new age angle that sits wrong with me.

Swordsmanship, for example, is not a glorified meditation. If someone is practicing Zen, or a a member of a Zen group that is fine, but come on....meditative swordsmanship would (and will) get you killed. Slowly draw the sword, slowly cut...slowly...THWAK...you're dead.

IMHO an un-fluttered mind is not acquired from extreme mental pondering, but a skill learned from action and the "numbing" of the senses to what is important and what is not important. Over thinking things and paying attention to meaningless details doesn't seem to help and I have seen a few "zen swordsman" get "chopped down" when faced with a living, breathing opponent. Getting past the mythos attached to things, I find, gets one to actually train and feel what is going on and where danger lies, where it does not. To me that is more important than being in a half asleep state.

Whatcha think?

Jonathan Randall

10-25-2009, 22:44

Well said. In the West, at least - and among those catering to Westerners, you can blame a lot of this nonsense on this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugen_Herrigel

Tony Dismukes

10-26-2009, 08:22

I have no practical experience in how these things are practiced, but aren't "overthinking things", "paying attention to meaningless details", and "being in a half asleep state" the antithesis of what Zen is supposed to be all about?

My understanding of the ideal of the zen state in the martial arts was that it was all about being 100% in the action of the present moment, without the complications of intellectual analysis* or emotional distractions. What you're describing sounds rather different. Is that how so-called schools of zen swordsmanship actually practice?

*(I suppose the Car Talk guys would describe that as "unencumbered by the thought process")

David Craik

10-26-2009, 10:28

I'm rather with Dave Lowry in that I have the distinct impression that the role of Zen Buddhism within the context of historical bujutsu has been vastly overstated in the West.

Mekugi

10-26-2009, 13:26

I have no practical experience in how these things are practiced, but aren't "overthinking things", "paying attention to meaningless details", and "being in a half asleep state" the antithesis of what Zen is supposed to be all about?

It depends on your outlook. It seems that the Zazen folks who meditate seriously try to get to a state of "sleep like" relaxation where they are aware. I've read some studies on it, what they have induced is a "dream state" that is similar to a half-awake type of sleep. According to them, they are completely aware...like when you are just waking up naturally, I suppose. It's sleep to me....these guys must have nothing to do all day that keeps them from passing out when they close their eyes. I know I do. I get totally Zen on the train coming home....

At any rate:

http://www.do-not-zzz.com/

Jeff C.

10-26-2009, 21:50

Mekugi

10-27-2009, 10:13

Wow Jeff. Just wow! I am surprised that you didn't just implode on the spot. It's almost kind of creepy, actually....

drivica

10-27-2009, 20:07

I see that Eugen Herrigel is mentioned and you probably know that his interpretation of Kyudo is very superficial, plus, he wrote about zen so much, while in fact his Kyudo teacher hardly knew anything about zen. Another "fine" source of this misconception about importance of Zen in budo & bujutsu comes from Christian Inazo Nitobe :) He knew almost nothing about true history of bugei and still, his book "Bushido - the code of the samurai" formed the entire (wrong) picture about martial arts tradition of Japan. More influence from zen to martial arts comes through the stories of Takuan and Musashi...

There are, of course, situations in every fight when a required strategy can match with some of zen ideals (for example: "when in doubt - jump in action" - that is a great rule used both in zen and in kumite!). Still - the overall "feeling" of zen is plain useless in sport and in self-defense, and is definitely something that can be removed from regular budo practice. Unless, of course, someone insists on budo as a "walking meditation" - in which case it is Ok to combine zen and martial arts movements - but with full awareness of what you are doing.

JWhiteSensei

10-27-2009, 22:39

Although I see all of your points I think Bruce Lee would probably disagree with you and I can't see myself arguing the point with him

Mekugi

10-28-2009, 04:52

Although I see all of your points I think Bruce Lee would probably disagree with you and I can't see myself arguing the point with him

Because he's dead?

tgace334

10-28-2009, 06:31

Jeff C.

10-28-2009, 06:44

Jim, I interpret (perhaps incorrectly) that Russ thinks there is no historical precedent of Zen influencing bujutsu to the degree that is commonly stated.

Although I greatly respect what Bruce Lee did for martial arts and martial arts movies, he certainly is not the Holy Grail when it comes to such matters of martial arts history and philosophy. He had only four years of formal training before going off on his own. Although he owned a ton of books, he was not regarded as a respected researcher of martial arts history. He was also a tad confused, shunning the "form" of practice he thought many traditional arts utilized - but he himself used a LOT of drills in his own and his student's practice. He failed to grasp the extremely important concept of using the vehicle of form to own the underlying combative principles (in spite of the fact that he actually did this in practice), after which ownership is achieved, the practitioner is able to respond effectively and spontaneously without regard to form to any immediate threat. But that is a thread for another day. ;)

Also, Bruce Lee had an ecclectic philosophy that was greatly influenced by Taoism, Buddhism, Jiddu Krishnamurti, and a few other things. He didn't claim his philisophical stance to martial arts was of ancient origin (and thus historically accurate); he evolved his own way of modern thinking based upon those philosophies and disciplines.

I cannot believe that Soldiers of the past thought, behaved, or responded any differently to the danger, combat, and potentially imminent death than they do now. I cannot believe they wasted valuable training time sitting still and desperately seeking satori when they could have been honing their fighting skills. The qualities of a calm mind that all warriors attempt to achieve has always been achievable through diligent and intense practice of their combative techniques. Zazen was certainly not necessary for that process. Like Dave, I think it has been way over-blown and romanticized. But on the flip side, the process of do-zen may certainly have been a secondary part of their practice.

Jeff Cook

Webmaster

10-28-2009, 08:25

I cannot believe that Soldiers of the past thought, behaved, or responded any differently to the danger, combat, and potentially imminent death than they do now.
For the most part I agree with you, but at the same time, I think the dismissal of Zen or any other religious/spiritual practice on the part of the Samurai is off base. You've heard the expression 'there are no atheists in foxholes'? From all I have read and seen over the years, there is something to that. Many of Soldier, both ancient and modern, when in danger and stress, have called upon their God(s), religious practice and other forms of spirituality to cope with the circumstances of combat. Do I think that the Zen stuff propagated by many in the martial arts world is overblown? Sure do. Do I think it's something that can be totally dismissed as historical nonsense? No way. As you said, "I cannot believe that Soldiers of the past thought, behaved, or responded any differently to the danger, combat, and potentially imminent death than they do now" and I agree totally.

Mekugi

10-28-2009, 08:36

Zen is routinely misunderstood..as is Zazen. If you have even been under stress and applied your technique perfectly without "thinking" about it, you have had a small taste of what this stuff is all about.

Zen in relationship to the martial arts is almost COMPLETELY misunderstood on both sides of the pond. I would wager to say that it's more than routine....it's ritual and artful.

Regarding the no-mind song and dance...the Socratic ideal:

With all due respect, that kind of thing in the martial arts simply does not exist (IMHO). You can't practice budo without thinking. In a sense of bushi philosophy and ideology that trains the body to react and the mind to think, an empty void alone will not due. A simple review of any era-specific doctrine of strategy and mindset reveals this. Dare I mention...gulp...Musashi...the Dokkodo (http://www.hyoho.com/doko.htm)....

Jeff's right, there is no emphatic connection to Zen and to the martial arts. There happens to be a BIG one with Shinto and with some Shugendo though. Zen seems to be a peace-nik thing that was loosely associated with it in a minor way.

In a historical context of Warriors and Buddhism (namely warrior monks) one needs to look up groups like the Jodo-shu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C5%8Ddo) and Jodo-Shinshu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jodo_Shinshu) and perhaps look at the Ikko-ikki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikko_ikki). These were the real bad-a$$es and you don't see much zen in there. Also, historically speaking these groups are related to Tendai Buddhism and not to Zen (which is historically Soto, Rinzai and Obaku).

tgace334

10-28-2009, 17:17

Disagree..it depends on what things you believe you should be "thinking about". I'll compare it to tactical operations. I need to "think" about things like terrain, avenues of approach, positions of friendlies/opponents, etc. Things like manipulating my weapons, transitions, reloads, malfunction clearances etc..are pretty much done "no-mind".

If I have to "think"..."hes going to throw a straight right, I am going to to bob to my right"...Im getting punched in the face. If I have a general strategy like "he likes to throw uppercuts. I'm going to throw a left hook against it". Thats a different thing. I dont necessarily "think"..."here comes the uppercut..time to throw the hook", but I have that subroutine prepped and ready to go.

Jeff C.

10-28-2009, 19:30

Thomas, you ARE thinking, but in a relaxed way, with no inhibitions and no artificial restraints. Zen does NOT advocate a "void" that is the absence of thought. Your conscious mind directs your battle-focused actions. Your training allows you to carry it out without your mind grasping - and thus stopping - on the details. But you are still thinking.

Furthermore, I see nonsense on the internet saying that "mushin" is the absence of "thought," ego, and intentions. It is not. Ego is simply the sense of "self." "Thought" consists of actions guided by an overall intent - but the thought does not involve planning the next step. It is thought guided by intent and "intuitive reasoning."

There really are no English words to describe it with 100% accuracy.

Jeff Cook

TonyU

10-28-2009, 19:42

JWhiteSensei

10-28-2009, 22:30

Here's the type of Zen I'm talking about guys. Have you ever found yourself in a situation be it kumite, a juijitsu match, a real life ordeal if you're Law Enforcement, where everything slows down to the point that it is almost like your adversary / opponent is moving in slow motion? You seem to think faster, move faster, process faster than the things going on around you. THAT is a form of Zen and a form of "no mind".

Mekugi

10-28-2009, 23:00

Here's some stuff I have been pointed to recently from Force-Science (http://www.forcescience.org.). This group spent a lot of time studying reaction times and perception in danger and stress level tests:

http://www.forcescience.org/articles/tempestudy2.pdf

http://www.forcescience.org/articles/tempestudy.pdf

David Craik

10-29-2009, 04:52

Mekugi

10-29-2009, 05:01

Ironically, the more a person tries to 'clear' their mind and 'not think about anything', the more thoughts will crowd in. The goal is to let thoughts flow naturally without the mind 'abiding' or fixating on a single thought for any length of time. The 'unfettered' or 'zen' mind is actually supremely active, not in a kind of vegetative state.

We have a serious Rinzai Monk in our group, he went through all the motions of Zen and Budo and was trying his best to live up to very lofty ideals that looked pretty in writing and in theory. He would try the meditation thing in tandoku and it worked well for him- and really he made a lot of progress that way. Yet....when it got to doing sotai he was trampled down but fast. Especially by me, who he *thought* was little more than a barbarian at the time. Since then, he has changed his attitude outwardly and keeps his Zen to himself.

Moral of the story: humans are not meditative figments or imaginary. They are real and unpredictable. They squirm about, scream, unsettle you and bite back. Being fixated on nothing or no one thought tends to leave one scatterbrained and unable to cope. Furthermore, in a controlled setting it is easy to sandbag a performance and explain it as "Zen". The problem is, while meditation is nice to clear ones head and start over, in a budo setting it tends to leaves one open to a smack in the head or a kick in the groin. Being directly exposed to such behavior is how you overcome the winces and adjust to it- or properly react to it.

Zen, from what I understand, is rather shifty and hard to explain. As Musashi warned of directly in the Dokkodo, many a "monk" or "priest" attach themselves to whatever works. Said individuals then apply a loose dialog within the Zen tradition to say that it is in fact REALLY Zen. When something is nothing then it is just as easy to call everything nothing.

Historically speaking, Zen groups generally stayed out of war-making....IMHO there was a good reason for it. Namely death.

JWhiteSensei

10-29-2009, 05:09

Because he's dead?

Because I've studied his philosophy, not only his ideals on the martial arts but on life in general, and agree and have great respect for the most part of the way his mind worked.

Because, due to my career, I have found myself in situations where my life and the life of fellow staff members was in immediate danger and there was no time to think. I expect there are others on this board that, in the line of thier work / duty, have found themselves in similar circumstances. No flashing lights telling them when to start and stop pulling a trigger. No safety net of being in a controlled enviroment as part of an experiment. Simply yourself, unarmed save for a radio and set of keys, facing off against an armed opponent who has absolutely NO problem in taking your life or doing you serious bodily harm. Because in those types of situations there have come moments when the guy with the 16 inch long piece of sharpened steel strapped to one hand and a sharpened putty knife strapped to the other has in fact charged and instead of panicking or even thinking my mind has calmed to a point that I did not even remember everything that happened until I saw it on film. I credit a lot of that to training. I also credit a lot of that to just what Bruce Lee taught as ecclectic as it was. What was it he said? Something to the effect of holding out his fist and saying "I don't tell it what to do. I hold it out and it strikes all by itself."

I sit still. I do it often. I also train six days a week. Is it the meditation? Is it Zen? Is it the training? Or is it perhaps a combination of all of it? I honestly cannot say with any certainty. I only know that it is simply me, my philosophy, and the way I train. Is Zen over emphasized in the martial arts? Perhaps it is. But to say, or to hint, that it is entirely useless (aka = dead) is a bit extreme in my opinion. To make a statement such as "Because he's dead" on the figurative case of not arguing the point with Bruce Lee is a bit disrespectful to a man who did so much for the martial arts. I dare say that none of us would be exactly where we are this day if there had been no Bruce Lee.

Mekugi

10-29-2009, 06:03

Because I've studied his philosophy, not only his ideals on the martial arts but on life in general, and agree and have great respect for the most part of the way his mind worked.

Because, due to my career, I have found myself in situations where my life and the life of fellow staff members was in immediate danger and there was no time to think. I expect there are others on this board that, in the line of thier work / duty, have found themselves in similar circumstances. No flashing lights telling them when to start and stop pulling a trigger. No safety net of being in a controlled enviroment as part of an experiment. Simply yourself, unarmed save for a radio and set of keys, facing off against an armed opponent who has absolutely NO problem in taking your life or doing you serious bodily harm. Because in those types of situations there have come moments when the guy with the 16 inch long piece of sharpened steel strapped to one hand and a sharpened putty knife strapped to the other has in fact charged and instead of panicking or even thinking my mind has calmed to a point that I did not even remember everything that happened until I saw it on film. I credit a lot of that to training. I also credit a lot of that to just what Bruce Lee taught as ecclectic as it was. What was it he said? Something to the effect of holding out his fist and saying "I don't tell it what to do. I hold it out and it strikes all by itself."

I sit still. I do it often. I also train six days a week. Is it the meditation? Is it Zen? Is it the training? Or is it perhaps a combination of all of it? I honestly cannot say with any certainty. I only know that it is simply me, my philosophy, and the way I train. Is Zen over emphasized in the martial arts? Perhaps it is. But to say, or to hint, that it is entirely useless (aka = dead) is a bit extreme in my opinion. To make a statement such as "Because he's dead" on the figurative case of not arguing the point with Bruce Lee is a bit disrespectful to a man who did so much for the martial arts. I dare say that none of us would be exactly where we are this day if there had been no Bruce Lee.

Point of question:
Have you actually ever seriously studied Zen through any of the sects in Japan or otherwise? Perhaps delved into the teachings of Mahayana? If not, it's not Zen, is it?

While I agree you absolutely have a right to your opinion and beliefs- but that alone just doesn't cut it with me. I would ask to see proof of purchase- cool?

Mind you, I don't mean to offend you. I know I am blunt...I know I can be a real jerk when it comes to these things...but I do have my own STRONG feelings about Buddhism that run deeper than the martial arts or a passing fancy attached externally to the trappings of this or that.

RE: Bruce Lee

He has absolutely nothing to do with my martial arts or with me or with where I am today. Furthermore, ZEN? IMHO- no WAY.

To me, he is nothing more than another martial artist from another style that has absolutely no bearing on me. He was also an actor that made some REALLY low budget movies (which I enjoy- mind you).

His people/legacy are VERY good though. I have met two, and they are very serious martial artists. But, please do not push him (Bruce Lee) on me as someone who should be venerated and I'll do the same in kind. What he did, in general, is the antithesis of what I am doing. Any concordance and agreements along the way are merely coincidence.

Plus good ol' Gene Lebell "whooped his butt" for being so "zen" like :).

Jeff C.

10-29-2009, 06:21

I think we are dancing around concepts that should be killed. Zen is not conceptual.

Zen cannot be "in" the martial arts, nor vice-versa. What "kills" martial arts - makes them dead arts - is the mindset of the practitioner. I don't think the Zen mindset, which is a totally natural, logical mindset, would "kill" anything except preconceived and conceived notions about anything and everything.

Folks who misinterpret their practice (any practice, from any philosophy and/or religion), and thus adopt an illogical, non-workable mindset that is incompatible with the intent of martial arts, kill the "martial" part of the martial arts.

Jeff Cook

Mekugi

10-29-2009, 08:55

My big problem here is Zen without actually having a basis in Zen.

A lot of people have added the concept of "Zen" for flavor or attempted to explain all martial arts from a pseudo religious standpoint. They are leaving out the rest of idea though...which is generally taken as one in the same here in Japan: Buddhism. You cannot have Zen without Buddhism, which is what Jeff rightly stated earlier. Just as there is no Buddhism without the Gautama Buddha.

More to, there is a "re-inventing" of the martial arts that makes a lot of people think that the Zen Buddhist ideology is the inherent basis of all martial arts. IMHO this is a rather silly notion because clearly there is no proof of that -anywhere-. Yet, I cannot disprove something that does not exist. One can prove that they do.

When being proofed, I usually ask for real references, where a lot of people don't. So you have a lot of people vs. the absence of references. In that case I believe that it's important to remember the slogan of the Bandar-log from Rudyard Kipling's Jungle Book:

We are great. We are free. We are wonderful. We are the most wonderful people in all the jungle! We all say so, and so it must be true..

James O'Neill

10-29-2009, 17:25

I think that the Zen mindset would exist whether it was labeled as Budhism or something else. And that sometimes the more it is considered & discussed intellectually the farther away one gets from the heart of the matter. Cavemen experienced Zen.

Maybe that is overly simplistic but I think it is something to be experienced as oppossed to debated. :bow:

Jeff C.

10-29-2009, 19:38

James, perhaps you should examine shosan during sanzen/dokusan before dismissing the value of debate as it pertains to the transmission of Zen Buddhism. :D

Jeff Cook

ben

10-30-2009, 07:31

I completely understand where Russ is coming from and the kind of "zen" he is railing against, or rather the kind of Zen "practitioners" he is railing against.

OTOH Zen training in the past has been just as rigorous and difficult as any martial training. I believe that the best Zen priests had sufficient insight into issues of life-and-death via their practice to be able to have relevant wisdom to offer battle-hardened bushi.

The tradition that came up with the aphorism, "Hell is not punishment. Hell is training" deserves more than a little respect in my book.

b

Ron Beaubien

10-30-2009, 07:56

Being one that is not latched to convention, I totally dislike and disagree with the notion of Zen in the martial arts. Especially the way it is taken in today, with a new age angle that sits wrong with me.

I completely agree with Russ. It is ridiculous how many people write about Zen yet have no formal training with it.

I spent an afternoon at Eiheiji in Fukui Prefecture. Although you might not have heard of it before, the temple is one of the two main training monasteries for the Soto sect.

In short, I was completely shocked by what I saw.

First of all, forget all the new age spiritualism that you find about the subject of Zen in most books in English on the subject.

Instead, imagine have every part of your day and night strictly regimented. You won't have so much as a minute to yourself while all your sense of individualism is being stripped away. It reminded me much more of a military camp than any center of religious study. I walked away feeling that the core of Zen was really rock hard.

In difficulty I really think Budo training pales in comparison. Even as visitors we were presented with a long list of rules and a lecture on proper behavior. Despite being a tourist site, I couldn't help but feel that they wished that none of us had come at all.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

Mekugi

10-30-2009, 09:14

I completely agree with Russ. It is ridiculous how many people write about Zen yet have no formal training with it.

I spent an afternoon at Eiheiji in Fukui Prefecture. Although you might not have heard of it before, the temple is one of the two main training monasteries for the Soto sect.

Is that the wood one??

Did you take the two day package or just check out the grounds?

I think my friend Jeff went there and checked out it a few years back. He said it was interesting...a little too much like boot camp. He may be right...I heard those places are determined to weed people out and force kensho on them whether they can handle it or not.

He also trained with a guy that was studying to be a priest in another ryuha that invited him along to the main "Terra" for his enjoyment. He said it was like a military compound complete with guard dogs and a huge communal bath. It gave him a weird feeling.

My experience with Soto was trying a one-day-thing a local temple in Mie offered about 9 years ago. I wasn't thrilled about it at the time, my now father-in-law had set it up so I was expected to go. It was rather unpleasant. I found that being hit with a stick while sitting facing a wall was not too fun either...the guy had a problem with me or simply thought I could handle an unexpected, full swing to the shoulder without being ticked off. He was wrong.

They did miraculous things with tofu though...that I really liked. Thumbs up for vegetarian cooking there.

Mekugi

10-30-2009, 12:28

OTOH Zen training in the past has been just as rigorous and difficult as any martial training. I believe that the best Zen priests had sufficient insight into issues of life-and-death via their practice to be able to have relevant wisdom to offer battle-hardened bushi.

What makes you think so? I'm not saying you are wrong, I just have a conflicting feel about this.

I have stories here from a local temple talking about the way monks lived some 350 years ago. Most of it was about begging, daily chores and how Soto Zen monks use these as tools for lessons, ultimately they are the primary vessel to gaining enlightenment, (accompanied by Kanji study and Sutra memorizing). That is to say- major work and attention to tradition would bring about a natural spontaneous kensho for the monk. One that would keep renewing itself through living that same lifestyle.
The story I remember best is about the simple act of drawing a bath. For one thing, the monks had to cut wood and hand carry the water to a large cistern. Next, they had to hand light the fire under the cistern and keep blowing on it with bamboo pipes until the flames engulfed the wood and made burning coals. Then a monk would stay there and feed the coals with kindle until it boiled the water.
From there, the head monk, abbot, or whoever would get in and clean up first. The others would undress him, perhaps even wash him, and towel him off. Then they fit him into his robes. Bathing would follow in order of seniority and a person might not get a bath until late at night- perhaps in cold water. New monks and trainees were not allowed to use water, but instead were violently scrubbed with prickly brushes by their seniors until their skin was bright red, accumulating the filth just below the shoulders for towel removal. Said juniors would tuck all their seniors into bed then have to clean up.

These are my understandings of the hardships of the Zen Buddhist monk and their ability to eat bitter. I am not sure how that relates to someone who just beheaded his friend for messing up an inventory of dried fish because the local Daimyo didn't like him. :) Maybe they could offer him some tools for calming him down, as in "not freaking out and killing his boss in a fit of revenge". I am not so sure about martial arts or strategy.

I get a lot of stuff like this because my wife's family are what are known as Miya-daiku....they are carpenters that build temples and shrines. I'm not saying that I am "enlightened" on the subject but I get a lot of this type of material thrown at me all the time and it's a topic that comes up around here. I just don't have any resources to the contrary because these groups don't typically advocate otherwise.

The local Jodo-shinshu folks, on the other hand, have a very long and bloody history and have some very revealing records about the Sohei (monk-warriors). The Sieges of Nagashima (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sieges_of_Nagashima) come to mind immediately.

Ron Beaubien

10-30-2009, 18:54

Is that the wood one??

This one:

http://wikitravel.org/en/Eiheiji

Did you take the two day package or just check out the grounds?

I was backpacking Japan for a month with a friend from the US. We started down in Okinawa and travelled our way all the way up to Tohoku. As she was very interested in Zen, I applied for the two-day stay months earlier, but it was not possible for us to do it. At first I thought that was a bit of a disappointment, however after just visiting the monastery for a few hours during the day, I'm really glad we hadn't been accepted. In such a short time, we already had all of our preconceived notions about Zen thoroughly smashed on the cold stone floor.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

Mekugi

11-01-2009, 04:31

If you enjoy this sort of thing, then this is the book for you:

http://www.amazon.com/Other-Side-Zen-Buddhism-Tokugawa/dp/0691119287

Very readable, historical accounts and some very nice commentary. It also drops a good dose of reality on what Zen Buddhism was during its rise in the 17th century.

A nice synopsis here:
http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7883.html

Popular understanding of Zen Buddhism typically involves a stereotyped image of isolated individuals in meditation, contemplating nothingness. This book presents the "other side of Zen," by examining the movement's explosive growth during the Tokugawa period (1600-1867) in Japan and by shedding light on the broader Japanese religious landscape during the era. Using newly-discovered manuscripts, Duncan Ryuken Williams argues that the success of Soto Zen was due neither to what is most often associated with the sect, Zen meditation, nor to the teachings of its medieval founder Dogen, but rather to the social benefits it conveyed.

Zen Buddhism promised followers many tangible and attractive rewards, including the bestowal of such perquisites as healing, rain-making, and fire protection, as well as "funerary Zen" rites that assured salvation in the next world. Zen temples also provided for the orderly registration of the entire Japanese populace, as ordered by the Tokugawa government, which led to stable parish membership.

Williams investigates both the sect's distinctive religious and ritual practices and its nonsectarian participation in broader currents of Japanese life. While much previous work on the subject has consisted of passages on great medieval Zen masters and their thoughts strung together and then published as "the history of Zen," Williams' work is based on careful examination of archival sources including temple logbooks, prayer and funerary manuals, death registries, miracle tales of popular Buddhist deities, secret initiation papers, villagers' diaries, and fund-raising donor lists.

Duncan Ryuken Williams is Assistant Professor of East Asian Buddhism and Culture at the University of California, Irvine.

I would recommend this book to anyone interested in Soto Zen Buddhism and its history.

ben

11-01-2009, 04:58

...These are my understandings of the hardships of the Zen Buddhist monk and their ability to eat bitter. I am not sure how that relates to someone who just beheaded his friend for messing up an inventory of dried fish because the local Daimyo didn't like him. :) Maybe they could offer him some tools for calming him down, as in "not freaking out and killing his boss in a fit of revenge". I am not so sure about martial arts or strategy...

I think the best Zen priests knew the mind well, and in particular understood the nature of mind under stress. Where this related to strategy, or dying, then I think Zen priests probably were able to offer something to bushi.

Nice story about the bath. I have some similar stories from a friend who is an Eiheiji-trained Zen priest. Tangaryo, or obtaining entry to the monastery, sounded particularly brutal. Basically a week of non-stop lotus position on the front verandah, punctuated by verbal and physical abuse. When I mentioned that it must have been a relief when he got through that, my friend laughed and said, "No, it got worse!"

b

Mekugi

11-01-2009, 07:43

I think the best Zen priests knew the mind well, and in particular understood the nature of mind under stress. Where this related to strategy, or dying, then I think Zen priests probably were able to offer something to bushi.

But how? Any examples?

I'm not trying to say there was no connection. What I am trying to say is that the connection is blown out of proportion and it does not necessarily bleed into all martial arts. That being said, you agree with me and I am just arguing at myself...again....but heck I like this type of talk. I wanna keep it rolling.

If we are going to talk about Zen Buddhism and the Bushi, then we are ultimately going to end up talking about the Rinzai sect, namely about a guy named Soho Takuan.

If you look through Soho's writings- the most famous correspondences are of course with Yagyu Munenori, you see him discussing a great deal about the mind and the bushi and how they perceive things- within a very "Zen" context. It sounds a lot more like Jodo-shu doctrine...but then again I have no expertise on these things...so this is just my opinion from here on out.

A little secret here (well not so little) Taky Soho was part of a Bushi family and a member of the Jodo-shu before he converted to Rinzai Zen in his teens. Hmmm...just hmmm. That is a big connection to something other than no-holds-barred Zen. Something outside the "No talking until take your daily abuse with a smile" type, the "you're not good enough to get the Dharma because you don't bow deep enough at the feet of the abbot" kind of Zen Buddhism. When compared to the "says these things, follow this path and live this life-we're all really equals underneath" kind of Buddhism that was oh so common among the Jodo-shu (who politically betrayed their brothers in the Jodo-shinshu...mind you, still a lot of the same doctrine), I believe Taky had a very different outlook on things. I think he does surely read that way...at least to me.

What I would like to point out here is that I don't believe Taky's letters to Yagyu Munenori contained what was completely "orthodox Rinzai Zen"; especially at the time they were written.

My belief is that Soho retained a lot of his Jodo-shu attitude, the beliefs of his bushi-family upbringing and the interaction with the ideals and philosophies of the sohei, all of which eventually got him an audience with the Shogun. In that Soho was in a different position than many of his Zen contemporaries, these elements made him unique. As you probably know, he eventually wrote the Fudoshi Shinmyo Roku. Again, not exactly what I would call orthodox Rinzai...not yet at least.

There is a lot of rigmarole about that kind of stuff, but how much of it is actual doctrine based on those who were actually into taking lives? More importantly, those familiar with attempts at their life being taken...outside good old Taky? Well...okay Munenori used the Fudochi Shinmyo Roku...but that is a truffle found in the mushrooms.

To put it like this....would you take instructions on the proper use of contraceptive devices from a Catholic Priest? Perhaps a long and hardy lecture about carpentry with someone who does not do any carpentry? How about advice regarding death from a guy who never really faces it?

So here's my point: Zen priests were into the non-killing side of things I find it hard to imagine that a Zen priest is any more ready for death than an old, worn out, empty shoe being tossed over a bridge. Talk is cheap...the proof is in the swinging of the old chopper IMHO. You can't do one without the other.

Pshaw I say...pshaw. :)

More over, can you really rid your body of organs without committing suicide? :) Okay...I got a little Jungian there. Sorry.

All the best.....

Ron Beaubien

11-01-2009, 08:52

I have some similar stories from a friend who is an Eiheiji-trained Zen priest. Tangaryo, or obtaining entry to the monastery, sounded particularly brutal. Basically a week of non-stop lotus position on the front verandah, punctuated by verbal and physical abuse. When I mentioned that it must have been a relief when he got through that, my friend laughed and said, "No, it got worse!"

I'd like to help clarify what Ben wrote about for people reading this thread, just in case. Apparently, from my limited understanding, tangaryo takes place inside the temple and has been previously arranged. It does NOT take place spontaneously outside the temple's front gate.

Although I haven't confirmed it with the temple itself, I was told by a long-term Zen practitioner who also has her Ph.D. in Japanese religious studies, that Eiheiji had long ago stopped that practice of accepting people who just showed up at the gate. She also mentioned that word had apparently never got around people in the West who have an over-romanticized view of Zen causing all sorts of problems.

For example, a young backpacker suddenly shows up who wants to study Zen at the temple. They turn him away. So the guy goes and sits outside the temple gate. They tell him to go away as it isn't done that way anymore. He continues to sit outside the gate despite them repeatedly telling him to leave. He stays there outside the temple gate pissing off the monks, the tourists, and the local souvenir vendors who don't appreciate some strange, unkempt foreigner who is starting to smell bad from lack of a shower, causing trouble for everyone. The monks come out again and try to reason with the idiot. They explain that they only have limited space and show him a long waiting list of people who have properly made arrangements to study, either short term or long term, at the temple. They inform him that he will have to do the same if he is interested in studying Zen there. The guy doesn't believe them and continues to sit outside the temple figuring this is just part the ritual method of acceptance he has read about, while the monks and local people get angrier and angrier at the guy.

Talk about your cultural misunderstandings! Ha!

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

Mekugi

11-01-2009, 09:30

For example, a young backpacker suddenly shows up who wants to study Zen at the temple. They turn him away. So the guy goes and sits outside the temple gate. They tell him to go away as it isn't done that way anymore. He continues to sit outside the gate despite them repeatedly telling him to leave. He stays there outside the temple gate pissing off the monks, the tourists, and the local souvenir vendors who don't appreciate some strange, unkempt foreigner who is starting to smell bad from lack of a shower, causing trouble for everyone. The monks come out again and try to reason with the idiot. They explain that they only have limited space and show him a long waiting list of people who have properly made arrangements to study, either short term or long term, at the temple. They inform him that he will have to do the same if he is interested in studying Zen there. The guy doesn't believe them and continues to sit outside the temple figuring this is just part the ritual method of acceptance he has read about, while the monks and local people get angrier and angrier at the guy.

Talk about your cultural misunderstandings! Ha!

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

I think they might have a special room for that by the same name...right? Dunno...never been. (I'm asking).

Either way I'm going to show up there and bring beer. Perhaps a little Yaki-niku to really stir things up. Of course I have to bring fight club along on my laptop....ya know...to show the brothers how it's done...bring the tailgate to the Tangaryo because all night sitting doesn't have to be unpleasant ('fer me...).

Mekugi

11-01-2009, 09:38

Yin...and Yang:

http://www.amazon.com/Zen-Zombie-Better-Living-Through/dp/1602391874/ref=sr_1_36?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257088422&sr=1-36

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1600610706/ref=pd_luc_sim_01_01

ben

11-02-2009, 04:41

That's very interesting Ron. My friend also said that they aren't as severe any more (he did his tangaryo more than 30 years ago I believe). However his guess as to why that was, was because they were failing to attract applicants and so they relaxed the 'entrance exam'.

There have been some foreigners who have completed traditional tangaryo. I'm sure someone turning up at the gate dressed as a backpacker may appear to be unaware of the significance of the path they were about to embark upon. Still, the tangaryo process was originally designed for a purpose. Perhaps our Birkenstock-wearing friend might gain entry with no robes and no letter of intro after... some months? One American I have read about had to do two weeks instead of one because he could only sit in half-lotus (but he probably had rung ahead to warn them and had the right clothes).

In answer to Russ' question seeking specific examples (even though it's a set-up ;)). I sense that there is a connection between cultivating non-attachment through Zen and the need for non-attachment in bujutsu. Where this has an impact on strategy I would see as being in the concept of 捨身: sutemi not as a product of non-attachment, but non-attachment being a kind of principle enabling sutemi. However I only hazard such a poor and dubious answer so as not to hide behind the scoundrel's counter-argument of "it's all beyond words" (like the Ninja's answer to the query 'Where's your lineage?': 'It's secret.').

Of course it is impossible to test any of this really. We are all involved in make-believe to some extent. :D

b

Jeff C.

11-02-2009, 06:19

I have to question the apparently-stated unequivocal effectiveness of owning "non-attachment," "self-abandonment" (in relationship to sutemi on the battlefield) through Zen practice. The training certainly is valuable, but there should be a high degree of skepticism by the practitioner AND the teacher that cultivates the healthy and pragmatic perspective that they really, truly won't know how they will react until ultimately exposed to the threat of imminent death on the battlefield.

Just like the new Soldier who is told to "rely on their training" by the combat-hardened Soldier but to be aware that they really won't know how they will react on the battlefield until the bullets are flying - but to "have faith" that their training will carry them through.

As Russ said, if given a choice during those times I would go to a battle-hardened samurai for my counsel rather than a Zen Buddhist monk who has never come close to experiencing the stress of impending death. That does NOT mean that the training provided by the peacenik monk is not valuable, just like the training provided by a drill sergeant is not valuable. Both teachers have their drawbacks, the main drawback being they cannot duplicate the stress of assured death in your training. But at least one of them owns the perspective.

Jeff Cook

Mekugi

11-02-2009, 09:32

In answer to Russ' question seeking specific examples (even though it's a set-up ;)). I sense that there is a connection between cultivating non-attachment through Zen and the need for non-attachment in bujutsu. Where this has an impact on strategy I would see as being in the concept of 捨身: sutemi not as a product of non-attachment, but non-attachment being a kind of principle enabling sutemi. However I only hazard such a poor and dubious answer so as not to hide behind the scoundrel's counter-argument of "it's all beyond words" (like the Ninja's answer to the query 'Where's your lineage?': 'It's secret.').

Of course it is impossible to test any of this really. We are all involved in make-believe to some extent. :D

b

Sutemi-rific!:

It doesn't matter! Whether sutemi is a product of non-attachment or attachment is secondary. Sutemi exists...and it is what it is. Just thinking about it creates an attachment. Furthermore, anything you think about during that sutemi then misguides the true intent of that sutemi...which should be happening in a :no mind: state. Don't make me quote Takuan poorly and ignorantly....:D
And herein lies my point (heh...like I really have one):
Your technique has to exist before you stop thinking about it...apparently. This zen stuff all occurs after the fact....so just accept it as "being". Esshhh....I am awful at this....

We can't test it now, but it was tested back then. Does the existence of Zen mean that it correlates with faking it? Muhahahaha! ;)

That moves along to my second point on my horrendously biased and ill-planned agenda:

Notice how this "Rinzai Rise" correlates to a very peaceful era? That is a to say, an Era with more intrigue than blood spilling. Other than the peasants revolting...it was a pretty "blah" 300 years for the bushi. If something did happen it was put down in a very Zen way...disarming the offenders and bringing out the iron fist. ZZZzzzz.

So the claptrap about weapons and warrior-ship was second to the obedience to your lord, who had the right to kill you in the era that followed. That of course corresponded the the "zen path" which supported the class system and enabled a lot of horrible things to happen to their patrons. So as a good political mechanism, it was used to prepare the Zen Sheeple for slaughter by the proper officials. There, I said it and I am not going to take it back! Nyahhhh...

The Zen-bushi, of course didn't have much of of a fight because their family was held hostage in a castle town with no way to escape. That, of course, was the very thing the real buddhist warriors (IMHO), the Sohei, protested...and of course they were slaughtered for it and driven to the underground (eventually they also became political wiener-heads; Social Darwinism).

The whole Rinzai warrior-zen-buddhist thing, IMHO, is a very well planned political movement that happened with Takuan getting the Shogun to authorize a "higher" buddhism that would support rank and file. The very same subject that got him banished to the North (outrage against Hidetada Tokugawa's government abbot appointment system) then became his weapon against the shogun....what was that thing about the enemy's spear being used against him? Oh yeah...oops. It was there all along!

Anyway, I still think...therefor I am (kinda...). :)

ben

11-03-2009, 16:26

I think I get where you're coming from now Russ.

b

Josh Reyer

01-17-2010, 01:19

Kinda late, but some thoughts.

Zen in budo needs to be put into historical context. If you were a 15th/16th century bushi, your education consisted of Chinese classics. Confucius and his disciples, and various Buddhist thinkers, particularly those of Shingon and Rinzai Zen. In the Sengoku and Edo periods, there was no discipline of psychology, so when a martial arts instructor wished to examine and expound on the workings of the mind, he went to what was in his day and culture the most advanced conceptual model: Buddhism.

Here in the West, or in English discourse, we turn to psychological and physiological models: "the zone", "combative flow state". The OODA loop is the result of studies in mathematics, economics, philosophy and physics, mixed in with John Boyd's own personal experiences and observations. It was a combination of practical knowledge building off of a broad, modern education.

In essence, Takuan's musings on heiho and letters to Yagyu Munenori et al. are paralleled by the work of, say, Dave Grossman. While Grossman is an Army-trained psychologist who, while never actually experiencing real combat, managed to draw on his education and training to provide insights to soldiers and LEOs, Takuan was likewise a trained soldier who drew on his own wide education and study of the mind to provide insights to the soldiers of his time.

A bushi 300-400 years ago perceived the world according to his education, be that training in Mikkyo or Zen, and thus Buddhism (and Zen in particular) provided the idiom through which they could express their understanding of psychology and physiology in combat. Zen references abound in non-Takuan-influenced strains of Shinkage-ryu, going back to the founder Kamiizumi Hidetsuna. Kamiizumi and his student Yagyu Munetoshi never met Takuan, and to them heiho was much more than peacetime training; these guys actually went to the wars. Why then did they turn to Zen (among other things) to express their ideas of combat? Because it was what they knew, and was to them the most advanced model of the mind in their time. This is not to say that they simply borrowed terminology, any more than than Grossman and others are borrowing terminology from psychology and other disciplines. Zen was the shape of their understanding of the world.

The modern study of Zen, in and of itself, is not likely to provide a practitioners with deep insights in budo. At least, not any more than the study of psychology, hoplology, physics or philosophy. What it can do is offer insight into the idiom and expressions of those budo forebears who expressed their understanding of budo in Zen. In the end, the physical practice is paramount. It's the physical practice that provides the key to understanding the conceptual framework.

Mekugi

01-17-2010, 02:23

Zen was the shape of their understanding of the world.
No, it really wasn't, at least not at the onset of Edo. This is something that happened *later* on...after the Sengoku wars when zen was raised up along with the support of the framework in the caste system <shinokosho). I agree with you on the study of classics, but one must remember that those same classics that were perceived one way before the "Zen explosion" were then looked at with a slightly (greatly) different eye afterwards. However, If we are talking dead on 18th century Japan, then I would agree with you because Zen and their abbots had the bushi by the short and curlies when it came to salvation and society...before that you had an entirely different generation running things.
That is to say, zen was relatively small until it became the official religion of the Shogunate during the first part of Edo. The influence of Zen afterward was HUGE in the Bushi community. Before that, if you wanted to talk Bushi and Buddhism you are talking primarily about the Tendai/Jodo sects, point of fact. Prior to Edo, zen sects tended to stay out of warfare (other than temple feuds, which Sohei usually settled at the expense of Zen monks, temples & followers) and were total peaceniks- unappealing to soldiers and warmakers. That is to say not *until* Takuan shredded the Zen scene with Ikko-ikki and Jodo Shinshu doctrine and sold it neatly packaged as Zen for the Shogun. Generally speaking, martial arts before the religious uprisings and the then-later Zen sects were almost all about Shinto (enter Tendai...) which supported the promulgation of the martial arts (Buddhism, incidentally, supported writing them down and categorizing of things- especially in Zen times. Take a look at writing during Edo and you see a familiar categorization in the flavor of Buddhism. Previous documents are a great deal different). Even the Buddhist deity Marishiten has a Shinto counterpart stemming from Tendai, which was borrowed and played more to the Zen-bushi crowd as it gathered....and things were re-written.

Great read, a dissertation by Chad Kohalyk in 2006 (I believe this is from the Royal Military College in Canada and Chad is a Daito Ryu 'guy): http://www.scribd.com/doc/24560459/Religion-on-the-Battlefield-Esoteric-Buddhism-and-the-Japanese-Warrior?autodown=pdf

Josh Reyer

01-17-2010, 06:36

No, it really wasn't. This is something that happened *later* on...after the Sengoku wars. Yes and no. The Zen character of Yagyu Shinkage-ryu goes back to the Sengoku period, long before Takuan. Takuan expanded on concepts already present. Just looking at the writings of Kamiizumi and Munetoshi we see reference to "mushin", "mukei". A number of Zen koan are referenced next to kudensho written by Munetoshi and Kamiizumi. The names of the five parts of Sangaku-En no Tachi, devised by Kamiizumi and written down in 1566 all come from the "Blue Cliff Record", a collection of Zen koan. "Katsujinken" is a Zen term. Myoshinji dates back to the 14th century, Kinkakuji was made into a Zen temple by Ashikaga Yoshimochi in the early 15th century. The Ashikaga in particular were patrons of Rinzai Zen.

Looking at the oldest extant kenjutsu ryuha, we see that Iizasa Ienao was a follower of Shingon Buddhism, and expressed many concepts in that idiom. We see that Kamiizumi Hidetsuna was a follower of Zen and Shingon Buddhism, and expressed many concepts in those idioms (particularly Zen). We see that Nen'ami Jion was a follower of Zen and Shingon Buddhism. I don't know if he used either to express concepts in his kenjutsu, but with a name like "Nen-ryu", it's a good bet he did. Ono Tadaaki was a Rinzai Zen follower, and my understanding is that Ito Ittosai was a Zen follower, as well.

All of which to say, while the connection with Zen and samurai can be and has been overstated, to say that it had no influence on budo previous to the Edo period would also be overstating it. It's one thing to say that looking at the samurai population as a whole, Zen didn't become widespread until the Edo period, thanks to the support of the Bakufu. On the other hand, we have extant written records of Zen's influence on the conceptual framework of certain ryuha going back to the Sengoku period. Regardless of what the population as a whole were doing, the men who were writing down their understanding of the body and mind in combat where doing so using the Buddhist idiom, both Shingon and Zen. Even if we go into the Edo period and include Takuan and Munenori, those were men who came of age in the Muromachi period. Nor did those men consider themselves to be living in the "Edo Period", let alone the long peace of the Edo period. They did live through the Osaka Castle campaigns and the Shimabara Rebellion, after all. The world they knew wasn't significantly different from the Sengoku period.

So, as far as some bloodied men of the Sengoku period thought, Zen in the martial arts =/= death. Aside from that, I certainly agree with your first post (and tried to make that clear in my previous post), that zazen isn't going to make you a better martial artist.

Jeff C.

01-17-2010, 07:06

This seems to be an interesting text concerning "the religion of the samurai," although it is a bit of a difficult read: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/rosa/index.htm

Jeff Cook

Mekugi

01-17-2010, 09:24

Yes and no. The Zen character of Yagyu Shinkage-ryu goes back to the Sengoku period, long before Takuan.

Oops! Agreed. I misread you before. I thought you were talking about Bujutsu in general....at least at the time I read it that way. So, my previous post was about the general...not Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. Although, there are claims otherwise....and some say that Munenori is really the one to install a zen Buddhist flavor. Check this out:

“Perhaps the strongest principle Munenori tried to instill in his disciples was that swordsmanship was not a skill learned to kill people but rather to fully realize one’s personality, one’s inner being. This concept also played a pivotal role in strategy. Although Munenori had not yet incorporated Zen Buddhism into his swordsmanship during the years he instructed Tokugawa Hidetada, his every move seemed oriented in that direction. To Munenori, swordsmanship was far more than the art of developing fencing techniques; it was life itself, for it trained man to develop his inner self. By training with Munenori, therefore, Shogun Hidetada was learning the essentials of statecraft through swordsmanship.”
This is from Makoto Sugawara's book "Lives of Japanese Swordsman". I did a search and found this here: http://ejmas.com/tin/2008tin/tinart_tong_0809kajitsuka2.html

So there are definitely a couple schools of thought on this subject (whether I knew it or not).

Okay anyway, it's ironic that Tendai, Shingon, Jodo-shu were embraced by the soldier class while Zen was not, but it seems Zen has the most to say about the subject...now. Zen, again, was peacenik and the numbers of said fighting-lot were few- a lot of rich merchants and aristocrats however (Kyoto has the best Zen shrines...woohoo). To me, this alone is suspect and needs closer examination. Where's the proof? It's just taken for granted that everyone must have been Zen, look how old Zen Buddhism is...it must be true. Proof is set aside.

That being said I am *highly* suspect of any texts written in just before or just after the Edo era or during the "Zen Explosion" expounding on the Zen-ness of the schools founder as things tended to be re-written to meet an end. I've seen that first hand. Such an example is Ito Ittosai. Ono Tada-aki and his intercourse with, again, Takuan led to a great deal of zen being poured into that style. After Tada-aki, it is made out that Ittosai is a freaking wondering Zen-buddhist monk looking for enlightenment. Um...yeah...nothing odd there. From what I understand, very little is known about Ittosai and what is was written was done so years after his death. Hmmm....

To that affect, I raise this observation:
I would suspect the ushin and mushin aspects of Zen are akin to the earlier ke and ku of Tendai Nembutsu and how perhaps ideas were transposed from a Buddhism directly associated with soldiers to Zen(one that really, for the most part, was not). Matter of fact, the ke and ku principles were used for teaching in Tendai- especially when it came to warrior things. Tendai and Jodo-shu chants inciting these qualities and protection are abound and are generally recited before undertaking danger or peril. Furthermore, Takuan did borrow a lot, point in case he directly steals Jodo-shinshu stories in "unfettered mind" and today he would be guilty of a great deal of copyright infringement.

Perhaps the Muga of Jodo-shu is transposed there as well...seeing these are things that were expounded upon specifically for warriors (especially sohei) in the other sects, but not particularly so in the Zen branches (which did not have sohei).

Mekugi

01-17-2010, 09:46

...Takuan was likewise a trained soldier who drew on his own wide education and study of the mind to provide insights to the soldiers of his time.

Eh? Do you know something I don't here, or is that a mistake?

Storiale

04-29-2011, 13:06

Dynamic meditation, Mahasati Meditation is a form of mindfulness meditation. It is a technique developed by the late Thai Buddhist reformist, Luangpor Teean Jittasubho. Mahasati Meditation uses movement of the body to generate self-awareness and is a powerful tool for self-realization. Practiced throughout Asia and in the United States, this method of meditation is appropriate for anyone regardless of religion or nationality.

This is the definition given by wikipedia - I can't post the link (the BB won't allow it). The point being is that there are many forms of meditation. Pick the one that works best for you and do not usurp that yours is the best way or the only way.

Storiale

04-29-2011, 13:22

Agreed. That is called "Wax On, Wax Off." Not to be funny about it, but that is what that entire scene in Karate Kid was about. I experienced this last year during 5 weeks of training with a boxing trainer specializing in defense. He was a student of Tony Zale (was a 2-time world middleweight champion and made the Ring Magazine's list of 100 greatest punchers of all time).

We practiced 3 or 4 moves for 5 weeks, 3 days per week for 60 minutes. I was extremely upset, since we did no cardio, no mitt work, no actual sparring. We drilled parrying the jab, slipping right hands, etc.

When the fight came to fruition, I had very little confidence that I would survive the fight - I finally settled on the following, "I'll do exactly what he said, if I get my butt kicked, then it is his fault." I relaxed after this - My opponent did not hit me for 3 rounds (3-2min rounds). I parried every jab, I slipped and countered his right (knocking his mouth piece out with a left hook counter). It was ridiculous.

But this came from drilling, drilling, drilling. The military does the same thing - they drill drill drill and the fear, thoughts, etc - go away and there is only what there is to do. And then you win.

Disagree..it depends on what things you believe you should be "thinking about". I'll compare it to tactical operations. I need to "think" about things like terrain, avenues of approach, positions of friendlies/opponents, etc. Things like manipulating my weapons, transitions, reloads, malfunction clearances etc..are pretty much done "no-mind".

If I have to "think"..."hes going to throw a straight right, I am going to to bob to my right"...Im getting punched in the face. If I have a general strategy like "he likes to throw uppercuts. I'm going to throw a left hook against it". Thats a different thing. I dont necessarily "think"..."here comes the uppercut..time to throw the hook", but I have that subroutine prepped and ready to go.

Mekugi

04-30-2011, 00:01

Jonathan Randall

04-30-2011, 01:07

The problem is, this is not what Zen is usually teaching. Not from my experience. :) Maybe I haven't had a lot of it...but I sincerely do not put a lot of stock in this stuff. Nor do I believe that it was the foundation of martial arts in Japan, including Yagyu Shinkage Ryu- I think that is a flight of fancy that came later on. Proof is in the pudding. Here it's a bonafide religion and I am not one to gravitate to it. Namely because most of the people who do end up hiding behind it. Lofty words with **very little** real world experience.

I've also noticed that the closer (and longer) people are to the source - Japan - the less they speak of zen or other types of mysticism as it relates to the martial parts of "the martial arts". Best examples I can think of off the top of my head is Don Roley's great article on "The Godai" and compare Hayes' representation to Herrigel's. Neither of their fellow students or former instructors in Japan knew what the heck they were talking about.

Whoa. I'd better edit that:

I meant an anology between Hayes' and Herrigels representation of the "spiritual aspects" of their art and did not mean to compare their characters or levels of personal integrity. Herrigel was a member of the Nazi party and, IIRC, joined the S.S.. Hayes has never shown such defects of character and I want to make clear I do not mean such a comparison.

Mekugi

04-30-2011, 02:00

Daishado-kyo is interesting in its own right. Very strange stuff going on at that time, Herrigel was a interesting man for sure. Strange, but interesting.

I just realized not a lot of people are going to get this.

Here: http://archive.thebuddhadharma.com/issues/2007/spring/review_zenbow.html

I think this is total BS...

Andrewninja

04-05-2012, 02:30

I am new here, Have had no actually training in any martial arts. But I would say read the book by Nicklaus Suino, Budo Mind and Body.
It says zen is never achieved by beginners and even by accomplished instructors and even by the many that strive for it. Zen is paradoxical because once you are in it, and notice, you are no longer in it. The state of being one with nature completely and fully in the moment of yourself and your surroundings. The idea of zen being dead in martial arts is most likely true in western aspects where it is harder or impossible to grasp the concepts of such things, just like the idea of ki, most practitioners in the west disregard these as myth because they have closed their minds to its possibility due to the fact that there is no evidence of it existing. I am not saying it is real, I am not saying it is not, for I have not experienced it. What I am saying is that it is a possibility, because if it were not, Its "idea" would not even exist. It is almost exactly like saying god doesn't exist to a preacher from the point of an evolutionist, there is no point in debating.

Mekugi

04-05-2012, 07:01

I can't comment on what Suino wrote, I simply haven't read his book. However, if this quote is true and not out of context, I would take a LARGE grain of salt with it. For example, can you find anything concrete in what he is saying here? It exists, but it doesn't really exist; it happens, but you'll never know it Happens (much to the chagrin of thousands of zazen practitioners seeking an unfettered spirit). Speaking of "ki" is not matter of faith, but of definition. There are several outside of the New Age doctrine that floods the west- especially concerning the martial arts. In terms of what you're talking about as a mystical energy and there not being any proof - it has nothing to do with having a closed mind. It has to do with observation and testing. It hasn't passed any. For example. There are stories about people flying on their own like a bird in almost every culture, do you believe that people can fly and it's just a matter if believing in it? I can no more throw a chi ball at someone than I can fly

Andrewninja

04-06-2012, 05:31

I shall have to get back to you on the actual words he writes, I just finished the book the other day. It is a short read so I shall have to look through it and get back to you. And the 'ki' I refer to is not the mystical mumbo that everyone spouts and I do not believe that people can 'fly' without the use of devices such as hang gliders or free fall suits or things of that nature, I think it is something to the degree of willpower that can be used to achieve certain aspects of martial arts, like rooting, which helps with stability in a stance which when learned can be transitioned into motion rooting or stability while in motion. 'Ki' has a seemingly mystical aspect to it due to the legends of masters doing unthinkable things or seemingly impossible things. It is more an inner energy that when mastered (again by very few and far between) has the potential to do said seemingly impossible things, to the degree of the physically possible. Chi ball and all those other ideas are just extreme unrealistic examples of the idea of 'ki'.

rainesr

04-08-2012, 13:40

As a sidebar, I used to train in karate in a dojo that was part of a local church and the Christian Karate Association. One of the sensei would pontificate and preach during bow-in and bow-out; no problem, everyone there knew it was a Christian church-oriented group.

What I found to be sadly hilarious is they would pointedly lecture us (me in particular, as I was the token heathen) that they did not tolerate anything Zen, Buddhist, etc. But they would make us "sit in zazen" and pretend like we were meditating.

As some of these good preachy folks were screwing each other behind the pews and otherwise not living up to their own ideals, I became a bit frustrated with the hypocrisy (I wasn't being judgemental of them, but was tired of them judging me). I pointed out to the senior sensei one day that they were engaging in a strictly Buddhist activity by "sitting in zazen." I further pointed out that during my shodan promotion ceremony, when they had us sitting in zazen and were going around whacking us with a kyosaku that they were engaging in a purely pagan ritual totally of Zen Buddhist origin, and as a Buddhist I was a bit miffed that they were not adhering to the required Buddhist protocols.

They barely tolerated me in that dojo.

Jeff Cook

I went to a Christian school for a short time and had issues although I am Christian. What really bothered me was the insubordinate amount of time spent on how not to be Buddhist or Zen...etc. I don't know how to be a Buddhist, I'm not going to accidentally become one meditating, sitting a certain way, or putting someone in an arm bar. I have also noticed I don't turn Muslim while washing the dishes. I lack the knowledge of and devotion to those religions for that to happen.

I guess it bothered me that they spent so much time showing us what not to do instead of spending all the time showing us what to do.

~Rob

Jonathan Randall

04-12-2012, 04:20

I went to a Christian school for a short time and had issues although I am Christian. What really bothered me was the insubordinate amount of time spent on how not to be Buddhist or Zen...etc. I don't know how to be a Buddhist, I'm not going to accidentally become one meditating, sitting a certain way, or putting someone in an arm bar. I have also noticed I don't turn Muslim while washing the dishes. I lack the knowledge of and devotion to those religions for that to happen.

I guess it bothered me that they spent so much time showing us what not to do instead of spending all the time showing us what to do.

~Rob

I had the same experience.

"By their works you shall know them."

If many Christian churches spent as much time trying to be lights, as they do judges, there would not be the current backlash against them, imho.

Show what you stand for. Attempt to live it, and others will inquire as to your faith. Walk around screaming against others and people will run from you and your faith.

CEB

10-05-2012, 10:57

FWIW .... What you are taught to do in Buddhist meditation is directly opposed to Christian Church teaching and always has been. That is what the rub is.

However in many cases churches in the west do not seem to understand the theology of why that is. Since the 15th century the Western Church has become so fractured and splintered there is no consistency in teaching across the population necessary to reinforce within the laymen what the teaching of the Church is. People often no longer understand the faith so they reinvent the faith to suit their personal idea of God. You can't be both Buddhist and Christian as the Church would teach.

But I'm just a farmboy from Illinois.

Webmaster

10-05-2012, 11:36

Please don't argue with me without stating your credentials.
How about your credentials?

I see why you've been launched from several websites... inability to control what comes out of your keyboard. :)

Folks are entitled to their opinions, as are you, but based on having grown up in a Christian church, I agree with Ed. The two religions are not compatible. I am sure that any number of our dedicated Christians will also add to this discussion. However, don't take my word for it, Ed's word for it, or even your minister's word on it, go to the source; The Bible. If you can find someplace where The Bible states that you can have two religions, then knock yourself out. Ultimately though, you won't be answering to any of us if you are mistaken.

Meanwhile, here's a place to start some personal research:

http://www.gospelway.com/religiousgroups/buddhism.php

CEB

10-05-2012, 11:41

In the course of Christian prayer we are to commune with God and be filled with the Holy Spirit that is sent us proceeding from God the father through Christ. The idea behind Buddhist mediatation is that we empty ourselves. It is a processed that is reversed from what we are taught to do. The Church is clear on this and has uppon several occasions reiterated this stance.

I have no credentials. I just try my best to follow the teachings of the Church established in the year 33 which is under the leadership of an unbroken line of bishops. But I'm just a layman member who at one time got into this Zen thing, But I never reached enlightenment.

Abbax8

10-05-2012, 11:55

John,
First off what I am about to say I do not mean in a disrespectful way. But, in a nutshell Ed is correct. It is impossible to be a Buddhist and a Christian at the same time if you adhere to the Historical and Orthodox tenets of Christianity. The two belief systems are not compatable even though they teach many of the same moral principles.

Buddhism does not worship God as God is understood by Christians. Buddhism and Zen is all about the adherent transforming themselves to a higher plane of existence. This has superficial similarities with the Christian notion of heaven, but they are not the same. The most obvious difference is that Buddhist believe they reach enlightenment by living exemplary lives. Christians can attain heaven only through Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Second, Buddhist beileve in reincarnation. Christians believe you live once and then you face judgement.

To call one self a Buddhist- Christian would be like saying you are a Vegetarian - Carnivore. Or an electric current is AC/DC. You are one or the other, but it is not tenable to be both.

I am not advocating for the superiority of one over the other, just that when people claim they are a mixture of both, it is because they are radically changing the basics of what makes each a unique faith. When the basics are changed, they cease to be what they essentially are.

I have studied and taught students about the Catholic Faith for the past 25 years. While I amnot an expet on Buddhism and do not claim to be, I am familair enough with its teachings to be absolutely sure that what I have said is correct. To be a Christain means a person accepts certain beliefs. To be a Buddhist means a person accepts certain beliefs. If someone is telling you that a person can be a Buddhist/Christian then they have apoor understanding of Orthodox Christianity and Buddhism.

Dennis

Webmaster

10-05-2012, 12:21

Indeed for most Christians, the church and Buddha may be incompatible. But not in my church.
Don't take my word for it, Ed's word for it, Dennis' word for it, your church's word for it, look at The Bible. No other source matters with regard to Christianity, otherwise you are making things up as it suits you.

Maybe that's why the website that is "blatantly bias towards the traditional literal Christian orthodoxy" says what it says, it comes from The Bible. While you and "Buddhism" are claiming that Buddhism is not a religion, I might also remind you that Charles Manson said he was Jesus, and Al Capone claimed to be a law-abiding businessman. The courts didn't believe them based on available evidence, nor should you accept the word of Buddhism that it is not a religion.

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:44 - New International Version

And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 2 Corinthians 11:14 - New International Version

Also, any Aikido dojo that teaches Buddhism is one that I will walk out of right away. I attend (or in this case teach) at a dojo to learn/teach martial arts, not religion. Aikido is not a religion or an art that teaches one. If you want to do Aikido, do Aikido. If you want to do Buddhism, go to a Buddhist temple. Buddhism has no more place in the martial arts than Christianity or any religion does.

CEB

10-05-2012, 12:32

...... It is only history and tradition which stands in the way of that truth!

I'm a history, philosophy and religion geek. This statement deserves it's own thread on a forum full of like wise geeks of opposing views. :D

How does Tradition stand in the way of truth?

Abbax8

10-05-2012, 14:57

Plus Dennis, I realise that what I am preaching may in fact be of my own interpretation, and that as far as things have been held in usual esteem, that this dual faith is incompatible.

Correct, they are incompatible, and therefore it is wrong to refer to them as Christian-Buddhist as they are neither.

As for Catholocism, I know little of your faith.

The Catholic church is the Church established by Jesus Christ in 33 A.D.

I am not afraid by saying that he is one and the same. It is only history and tradition which stands in the way of that truth!

Gautama Buddha was a human being, a created creature. He is not the same as Jesus Christ who although incarnated as a human was also at the same time truly Divine. His Divine nature is NOT created. The nature of created creratures is to cease to exist. The nature of God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is to be without beginning and without end. In fact, time and space exist within God. Creatures like Buddha, you and me, exist and are limited by our being bound within time and space. God provides us with an Immortal Soul that is eternal but has a beginning and is kept in existence by God's unending love for us. These are the hallmarks of all Traditional Christian Faiths starting with Catholicism and including all of the mainline Protestant faiths from the Reformation. Recent entries have changed doctrine so much that they cannot be legitimately called Christian. Some are heretical.

You can try to call what you believe Christian - Buddhist but in doing so you are doing a dis-service to both. One of the Spiritual Works of Mercy is to enlighten the Ignorant. That is the purpose of this post. You are ignorant, mislead, in your understanding of Christianity. Even if the person who wrote the book or who preached the sermon has Ph. D. or D.D. after their name, if they are preaching what you are saying here, they are wrong. What it truly is, is another example of a New Age mish mash of beliefs. The Church fought such heresies as far back as 300 A.D. Arianism, Monophystism, Docetism, etc. That is the History you so cavalierly reject. That is the the Truth you clearly reject.

Now, please, you have a free will and a right to believe what you want. You do not have a right to radically change the doctrine of two of the great belief systems of the world and call them something they are not. Such nonsense happens all the time when some student cobbles together Judo and Kendo and Accupuncture and calls it Nnjutsu.

Dennis

Don Roley

10-05-2012, 16:17

As to my Buddhism, well I have previously called myself enlightened.

(Don spits coffee all over his keyboard.)

Oh..... this should get interesting.

:Popcorn2:

Webmaster

10-05-2012, 16:24

(Don spits coffee all over his keyboard.)

Oh..... this should get interesting.

:Popcorn2:
Whisper: It was the medication.

CEB

10-05-2012, 16:25

For whatever it worth ..... Sophia is Greek and means wisdom. In context of Christianity it refers to Holy Wisdom.

Holy Wisdom is the Divine Logos. The Divine Logos became incarnate as Jesus Christ and born of the Virgin Mary and became two natures Man and God.

In the opening of John's gospel you will read in a typical English translation you we read something to the effect of :

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[a (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/#fen-NKJV-26050a)] it.

The Word is the English translations of the Greek term Logos. That is a rough 10 second overview of my understand of Church teaching on Sophia or Hagia Sophia. Dennis may have a different take that is more easily understood by Western Christians. I'm not Roman Catholic.

This idea of Sophia being a feminine side of God is Pagan Goddess worship that Gnostic heretics tried to piggyback onto some resembling Christianity in order to try to gain some acceptance. They were non Christian heretics.

IMO, the opening of John's gospel showcases the grave importance of Tradition. Without Tradition written scripture is of little use because there is often no way to understand it's teaching. So much was not written down. The New Testament canon wasn't finalized until the 4th century. All reference to the importance of scipture in New Testament writings is reffering to Old Testament scriptures because there was no New Testament. It was through Tradition that the truth was transmitted.

Again I'm just a Illinois farm boy .... but I'm not a bad piano player.

Rasputin

10-07-2012, 19:50

Whisper: It was the medication.

Medication, meditation; what's a little altered consciousness between friends?

jjaje

10-08-2012, 09:58

On account of this he (Buddah) exists today as a strong legend and only in the eyes of those who have seen him. Mountain climbers and the like. I can take it then, by your scepticism that you are not one of these?

What does Mountain climbing have to do with Christianity vs Buddhism?

Cliff Hargrave

10-09-2012, 07:23

You sure seem to like to lecture people when admittedly you are battling mental illness and your study of any of these religions and martial arts are infantile. It is blatantly obvious that you are cherry picking things from certain religions and beliefs to create your own little package that makes you feel comfortable. Unfortunately that is not the way it works in any of those systems.

Maybe you should try looking for a Unitarian Universalist church, they do the same thing.

It appears your study of martial arts is in it's infant stage also. Maybe you should come onto a message board to learn rather than use it for a vehicle to throw out unconventional ideas and attempt to convince complete strangers that somehow you know what you are talking about.

Ramirez

10-09-2012, 07:53

Who is Julius Evola and what does that post have to do with anything?

I think saying that he knows nothing about Catholicism except for some pedophiles ....well you can safely ignore anything else he has to say.

Western Society is based on the mores and ethics of the Catholic Church....and I'm saying this being the atheist on thus board.

Unleashing my inner bodyguard!

Don Roley

10-09-2012, 08:25

And the ai from ai kido. This means internal energy, that's a rough translation for it anyway.

Nope. You don't know the word, it is 'ki' and you don't know what it really means.

Really, not only are you acting like an expert when you know so little, but based on your need to show off how much you know you obviously are not very far along on the spiritual path.

I think that Ramirez's remarks about you are correct. What you wrote seemed designed to insult the catholic members here.

Furthermore, you should listen to Cliff when he advises you that you should use this message board to help you overcome your ignorance. There are many people here who have a wealth of knowledge. They are willing to share that knowledge with those still early on in the path like you if you only show the proper attitude and respect.

Don Roley

10-09-2012, 09:01

Sorry yes I meant the ki. And yes I do know what it means.

Obviously not. And it is things like you trying to insist that you know what it means instead of listening to someone like me (spent 15 years in Japan and just translated a 17th century Japanese text into English) that holds you back from filling your potential. If you change your attitude, you might learn something here.

And no I haven't come on here to insult anybody.

But we see that you have insulted other people. I am not catholic, but I can understand their anger over what you said. And I can also see you have not even tried to apologize.

And no I don't think my honesty will be tolerated for much longer round here either. And yes that is your loss not mine.

Obviously, you have some problems with your ego and project your anger out onto others. If you continue with this attitude, you probably will not last long. But if you show the proper respect and try to learn from those here that know far more than you it would be very beneficial to you.

Cliff Hargrave

10-09-2012, 09:15

...And no I don't think my honesty will be tolerated for much longer round here either. And yes that is your loss not mine.

And no I don't think my delusions will be tolerated for much longer round here either. And yes that is your loss of comic relief not mine.

There, I fixed it for you.

Ramirez

10-09-2012, 09:35

Sorry yes I meant the ki. And yes I do know what it means. And no I haven't come on here to insult anybody. And no I don't think my honesty will be tolerated for much longer round here either. And yes that is your loss not mine.

Lol...yeah I'm crying in NY coffee over the loss of your insightful posts

Unleashing my inner bodyguard!

CEB

10-09-2012, 10:24

No. You are OK. You aren't hurting anybody. You aren't a baby killer or thief or anything like that. Everything I posted was simply my understanding of what Christianity is as taught by the Church established by the Apostles of Christ in 33 AD. That church is still here and a live on this planet. I am a member of the Orthodox Catholic Church or as it is called in the west Eastern Orthodox.

Salvation - enlightment - martial arts - learning to play the piano, etc... is a life long process. A great deal of what I thought when I was 31 I now think was wrong. Nothing wrong with being wrong I hope. If there is I am in trouble.

Everyone has an ignore button. I doubt you get banned unless you get really rude and an enlightned man wouldn't do that. You should read how they get in the Politics threads :D

Ramirez

10-09-2012, 10:38

I don't know why you lot continue to put up with me? Why don't you just ban me and be done with it? All of the other sites, Bullshido etc. have taken that route. You know it makes sense. Plus it will give me another notch on my fail bedpost!

Plus it amazes me of how little I have to say in what a little space of time, to accrue these bans.

Well to be honest...what you post just isn't that big a deal, not sure why you think it should concern us that much..to get banned you would have to be really offensive.

I've had my own share of run in with just about everyone... but I don't post patently ridiculous statements like how I know nothing about the RC church....never mind the pointless add on.

If you want to discuss the short comings of the RC...fine, just do it in a mature and sensible manner in a thread dedicated to it.

Unleashing my inner bodyguard!

Chris Parker

10-09-2012, 23:15

John, you were banned on the other forums for talking about beating up women (and being beaten up by them), your claimed actions of sexual assault (and other sexually themed posts), your constant attacks when people pointed out the problems with your posts, and more. And, if you start down that path here as well, that will give you the same result.

On martialtalk, I advised you that the forums are probably not the best place for you to be, as you seem unable to ascertain what you're being told, where your ignorance comes out, or how people are trying to help (or even just understand) when they correct or question you... this, combined with your admitted psychological issues and outside problems, including a range of delusional beliefs, which you seem to justify by having written books about them, means that I would continue with the same advice. If you want to get banned, you will be. But I don't think that'd do anything other than feed into your delusions about you being "right" and others not understanding what you offer. Believe me when I tell you that is not the case.

Okay, back to the thread.

Webmaster

10-10-2012, 06:21

Abbax8

10-11-2012, 07:34

John,
You seem to know me very well and to understand my shortcomings as to my familiarity with other faiths. Amazing, since we have never met and have only had a very brief internet conversation. May I enlighten you, wait, you are formerly enlightened, is that not correct.

I am a cradle Catholic who like many drifted from the Church in my teens and early twenties. During my drift I studied Buddhism, the writings of Lobsang Rampa. In college I took courses in comparative reiligion, Islam and have even studied some of the beliefs of the Native Americans. Hinduism was studied somewhat in high school as part of a world cultures course. I have watched ashow on EWTN for over the past 15 years called The Journey Home where converts to the Catholic faith detail their journey. Each journey starts with the faith they formerly were and the beliefs of that faith. Though necessarily abbreviated, over the years I have gained a decent insight into many of the Protestant beliefs, as well as Mormon, Universalists, Jehovah Witness, Judaism, Non-Denominational, and some non-Christian faiths. I also watch with some regularity a show on PBS World called Global Spirit which features non-Christian Religions and their world view. It is noteworthy that often Christianity is talked about in a dismissive matter on this show.

You state that only by meditation can one reach understanding. Why do you assume I do not meditate on a regular basis ? The fact of the matter is I do. It is Catholic meditation, of two different forms. One is the Rosary, the second is what we call a Holy Hour. Look them up ! As far as making Buddhism and Christianity be the same, nope, it won't happen unless you purposefully deceive yourself in your meditation. As far as climbing mountains and such, while it can be a spiritual experience, so can a walk in the woods or simply sitting quietly in your room. Another spiritual experience is working at a food pantry, volunteering at church or a senior center or other places.

Again - Welcome to BudoSeek ! If you truly are seeking answers as opposed to trying to puff yourself up, you have come to the right place. If you are here to impress people with your Buddha-like qualities you are really lost and in the wrong place.

Peace

Dennis