Arizona's New Immigration Law

[kbarrett]

As you all may hve read or will hear about before this day is over, the Govenor of Arizona just signed into law the new immigration law, some like ours president say it violates peoples civil rights, (it's odd how he say's that after passing the health care bill, basiclly tell people that they have to buy health insurance or else).

How do you feel about this new immigration bill being passed in Arizona, is it the right thing to do, and what will be the fall out from the passing this bill. Is immigration the next big thing coming from the white house and if so what impact will it have on the whole country?

Sincerely
Ken Barrett

[Abbax8]

We do not need immigration reform. We need to control our borders. We need to enforce the laws about hiring illegal aliens.

Dennis

[Haggis Kicker]

Recently coming form AZ, I am glad they are getting down to business protecting the citizens there. PHX has the highest rate of kidnapping in the country. This is primarily due to the horrendous toll the drug war is taking on that region of the country.

[Dennis Monk]

I love how the media portrays this as "criminizing illegal immigrants".
So it wasn't always a crime to be an illegal immigrant huh?

[David Craik]

I agree with everything that's been said. If somebody wants to live here, they can go through the same red tape I did, and my family did, to do so legally. If not, and they are unhappy with their country, then they should work to change it.

[Jay Bell]

There is one key component that no one, including Bill Maher and Fox News both, seem to have noticed about this bill. Everytime I've heard, watched or listened to someone speak about it, they've gotten it wrong.

If you are pulled over for speeding...and the officer finds that you have a suspended license, then not only are you cited for the speeding, but dealt with on the driving on a suspended license as well. Same idea. I have yet to hear anyone on either side even come close to getting it right while explaining the bill...and frankly getting tired of it.

Droves of teenagers ditched school for 2 days this week to march on the Capital. Picketers, angry as could be, stood in front of news cameras chanting that it's what the Nazi's did...that it's a race issue...that Arizona hates Mexicans...it's beyond stupidity. I begged for someone to grab the microphone and ask if anyone's actually read it. We even had many groups of officers fighting against it, saying that it would take away from fighting rapes and murders elsewhere. The media should be ashamed.

I haven't heard from the horse's mouth that President Obama said it was a civil rights issue. Can you find me a quote on that?


FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).

I agree with all of the above. It's amazing that thousands of people turned out to picket against law enforcement enforcing the law.

[Jeff C.]

I completely agree with everyone here, and everything you all have written in this thread. Kudos to the AZ governor for having a spine and taking action!!!

With that said, I would like to reinforce what Dennis wrote above. The key is to crack down on employers, BUT to also have a system in place to legalize the folks who are already here and not just toss them back over the fence. I suspect the numbers who will stand in that line will be quite low, if they cannot get and hold a job in this country.

Crack down on the employers, and you will see a mass exodus heading south.

Jeff Cook

[Webmaster]

Jay, since you live in Arizona, and have read the law, could you answer a question?

The paragraph you state refers to "lawful contact", so does the law specify what a "lawful contact" is? The reason I ask is to understand if the charges by the left that police would be just randomly pulling individuals over and checking their "papers" is accurate. As I read the paragraph, it seems to me that only times in which contact was made with a citizen, like traffic stops, investigations, etc, and an officer suspects the individual to be not a US citizen could they check to verify citizenship, and not that officers are actively looking for individuals who might not be citizens. However, a definition of "lawful contact" I think would be key to dispelling a lot of the BS over this new law.

If you want a real kick, read the below letter from the Episcopal Church in Arizona. Real shame that they can't grasp the concept of simply enforcing existing laws.

[Don Roley]

I find it strange the the president is saying that this should be dealt with by means of immigration reform and not local laws.

The fact is, people do not want to hire hispanic workers, they want to hire illegal workers.

Has anyone seen just how much an employer has to pay to hire someone at even minimum wage? Between social security, payroll taxes, benefits, unemployment insurance, and a host of other costs the amount workers take home is nowhere near the money the business has to budget for them.

And this president wants to add even more costs on top of what employers pay now.

So if all those workers who are doing jobs so simple that they don't even need English skills were to be made legal, they price themselves out of a job and we get a new crop of guys from across the border.

I actually sympathize with the workers who come here to make their life better. If I were in their place I might do the same thing. But they end up costing society more than they produce. If they get sick, they don't have health insurance and now we will have to cover them anyway if they get really sick. If one business hires an illegal alien, not paying for any sort of health insurance and sending them to the emergency room if they have even minor problems then they can undercut the prices of a business that pays all the taxes on their workers. One business uses the emergency room, the other helps pay for it through taxes.

The business owners are in a bind. Break the law or be eaten by businesses that break the law.

The more benefits we allow illegal aliens to have that are paid for by taxes, the worse the trouble gets.

So excuse me if I can barely restrain my laughter when I see the president imply he can fix things better than Arizona. He is a very large part of the problem.

[Abbax8]

In Pennsylvania we have a mandatory seat belt law. All passengers regardless of age must wear one. However the police cannot pull you over for not wearing your seat belt. If they pull you over for speeding or running a red light and then find you not wearing your belt, you will get a second ticket.

The Arizona law sounds very similar, you can't be cited unless you are guilty of something else.

On a different note, it's time that our neighbors to the south do something to make their countries more livable for their citizens and if we are sending foreign aid their way we should stop sending it until that country gets its act together. I know, simplistic idea, but I'm tired of pumping money into countries that cause us trouble.

Dennis

[Jay Bell]

Jay, since you live in Arizona, and have read the law, could you answer a question?

The paragraph you state refers to "lawful contact", so does the law specify what a "lawful contact" is? The reason I ask is to understand if the charges by the left that police would be just randomly pulling individuals over and checking their "papers" is accurate. As I read the paragraph, it seems to me that only times in which contact was made with a citizen, like traffic stops, investigations, etc, and an officer suspects the individual to be not a US citizen could they check to verify citizenship, and not that officers are actively looking for individuals who might not be citizens. However, a definition of "lawful contact" I think would be key to dispelling a lot of the BS over this new law.

If you want a real kick, read the below letter from the Episcopal Church in Arizona. Real shame that they can't grasp the concept of simply enforcing existing laws.

The law itself is vague...it was written from the perspective of law enforcement and not the general pop...so there's a strong lacking of understanding. Lawful contact means that law enforcement cannot approach someone asking for legal papers unless there is a legal reason beforehand for that contact to occur. So, during a traffic stop, it's possible to inquire someone's citizenship. Approaching someone with an accent and asking for proof of citizenship or a work visa is not lawful contact.

I agree with you, Robert. It needs to be clearly defined so that all of this nonsense stops.

Don,

Not to derail the topic...but former Governor Napolitano ran our state's economy into the ground. We're broke, public care systems are going away and education is taking the worst hit this state has ever seen. She, consecutively, would spend upwards of 16% over state budget each fiscal year. I had the chance to sit down and speak with the AZ State Treasurer and he spent the entire time in her administration attempting to cover checks that she wouldn't stop writing.

Now? She was made the head of Homeland Security by President Obama. At a press conference talking about illegal immigrants crossing the border, it was suggested that a 10 foot high wall be built on the border. Napolitano's reply, chuckling aloud at her "wit", was that then we'd see illegal immigrants carrying around 11 foot ladders. The State Treasurer replied, "Well, Governor, wouldn't they be easier to see then?"

Her reply was to leave the stage, go up to her office and lock the door. She's a real piece of work.. She couldn't handle illegal immigration at a *state* level...and now it's part of her job to handle it at a national one. Maybe wrongly so, but I blame most of the failures that we currently face in Arizona on her. We're taking a beating now picking up the pieces that she left behind.

[Don Roley]

Thank you Jay for your insight. I for one suspect that if I get drawn into a debate over the law I can point out what you did and leave those dealing with knee jerk reactions rather than full facts floundering like fish out of water.

[Jonathan Randall]

As you all may hve read or will hear about before this day is over, the Govenor of Arizona just signed into law the new immigration law, some like ours president say it violates peoples civil rights, (it's odd how he say's that after passing the health care bill, basiclly tell people that they have to buy health insurance or else).

How do you feel about this new immigration bill being passed in Arizona, is it the right thing to do, and what will be the fall out from the passing this bill. Is immigration the next big thing coming from the white house and if so what impact will it have on the whole country?

Sincerely
Ken Barrett

I'm for a vigorous defence of our borders and this law has a place in that.

It is getting very important as it becomes more and more obvious that Mexico is a failed state with many of its regions and cities in a narco-war, corruption, kidnapping free for all that the government needs to fulfill its first and most basic responsibilities - defence of our borders.

[TonyU]

Thank you Jay for really pointing out the law as it reads. Since this thread I've been watching the news. The media and opponents have been spreading so much misinformation it's ridiculous.

[Jay Bell]

No problem at all, guys. Here's some scare for you...Mayor Gordon (of Phoenix) is getting together a lawsuit against the state and the Governor's office on civil rights issues because of this law. President Obama has a task force to find out if this is legal for Arizona to do.

I'm honestly so ticked off about all of this I just want to start slapping people. It's like people read these bills in hopes they'll find something to get upset about...even if they can't comprehend what they heck it says.

Again, not to lean away from the topic...but we have a state-wide bill on the block now for a 1 cent temporary sales tax (with expiration date) to help how bad our education problem has become. We've lost elementary schools, middle schools and over 1500 state-wide teaching positions, including those teachers with tenure. In my hometown in southern AZ, two elementary schools and a middle school have been closed. Another elementary school has not only lost art, music and PE, but have had to drop science, history and social studies and all sports programs due to lack of funding.

This 1 cent sales tax hike is going to bring back approximately 1200 teaching jobs, programs and such. I heard a comment today from a woman on the news board for Channel 3 say, "No tax is temporary, Obama needs to stop spending our money!" I'm so sick and tired of this.. When people in the general pop are too stupid to understand the difference between state and federal issues *and* they having the power to vote...no wonder our state is in shambles.

[nismophreek]

I still believe that Illegals should be dealt with like Invaders would be. If you are caught crossing the border illegally then you will be shot and killed. If you start pileing them up on the border then maybe they will get the hint that it's not such a good idea to ILLEGALLY cross borders into another country without documentation. There is a LEGAL way to gain citizenship and they should have to go through that process. If you are so h3ll bent on becoming a US citizen then go through the proper channels, get a job, pay your taxes and welcome.

I think that if they are so determined and will work so hard to come to the US then why don't they work that hard to change their own government so that their country will be a hospitable place to live instead of being a drag on OURs.

[David Craik]

So you would shoot unarmed men, women, and children. That is interesting.

[Jay Bell]

Update: The Capital Building was vandalized this morning. People smeared refried beans on the windows in the shape of swastikas..

[Erik]

I'm so sick and tired of this.. When people in the general pop are too stupid to understand the difference between state and federal issues *and* they having the power to vote...no wonder our state is in shambles.I think a big part of it has to do with the deliberate dumbing-down and sensationalizing by the press. But heck, I'm quick to pick on reporters in general because they disgust me so much, so what do I know?

Was that serious about the swastika-beans?

On another note, I'm not really sure how I would prove I am a citizen if I were pulled over. I guess I'd have to carry around a social security card and/or passport wherever I went. How does one prove he's a citizen, anyway?

[Jay Bell]

I'm with you. We've talked on this forum plenty of how the media reports things that they have no understanding of (research, health-related science, etc) and it brings a skewed understanding to the general public.

Unfortunately, yes...it was serious.

In Arizona, the DMV cannot give a state driver's license to someone that cannot provide citizenship (or green card/work visa, etc). Of course, that said, I'm sure some of squeaked by that as well.

Edit: haha, my buddy just reminded me that if those folks are caught that smeared the swastikas, they'll be charged with hate crimes

[Erik]

My, how times have changed - frijoles swastikas meant seriously. If it weren't realy it would sound like the punchline of some amusingly non-PC joke.

[kbarrett]

I sure you've all seen the protesters, hard at working making their point that this law violates their civil right, I ask this what about the rights of the ranger who was killed, or others who have been hurt or killed by the violence in this country not to mention Mexico it's self.

Just last week police officers and one civilian where killed in an ambush in Mexico, presdent obama is quick to say how this state law isn't right, but he's not so quick to tell the rangers and people of Arizona and New Mexico just what he plans to do about stopping the violent attacks from happening in the future and keeping people safe.

This shouldn't be about race, but it is and until a handle is gotten whats happening is not going to get better anytime soon. What the Governer did was take a stand to keep the people in her state safe, and I have a feeling this is only the begining.

Sincerely
Ken Barrett

[Erik]

I have a feeling this is only the begining.The trick is not letting this snowball into the slippery-slope that opponents are arguing, if that makes any sense.

(And yes, I'm for enforcing our immigration laws, by the way).

[Jay Bell]

That's what I can't understand, Ken. This has nothing to do with civil rights. This is giving law enforcement the ability to enforce immigration law, which imo, they should have had all along.

[Don Roley]

Update: The Capital Building was vandalized this morning. People smeared refried beans on the windows in the shape of swastikas..

You know, if there is even an accusation that someone used a racial term at an anti Obama rally some in the press start to make comments about the entire movement have racist leanings and talk about the Oklahoma city bombing.

How much press time do you think this is going to get?

[TonyU]

I had this argument with someone in the office today. His position is that the law will be used to racial profile. My argument was the law is still be legal or just. How it's enforced is another matter.

[Jay Bell]

I had this argument with someone in the office today. His position is that the law will be used to racial profile. My argument was the law is still be legal or just. How it's enforced is another matter.

True...I'm curious what the rebounds will be if it becomes mishandled.

[Abbax8]

I have to ask, "What Civil Rights under U.S. law does a Non-U.S. Citizen who is in the country illegally have?"

Dennis

[nismophreek]

I have to ask, "What Civil Rights under U.S. law does a Non-U.S. Citizen who is in the country illegally have?"

Dennis

NONE! There in lies one of the problems. How do we handle it? I get grief because of my statement that we should start shooting them and piling them up on the border as a deterrent. It's gotten that bad. Do I WANT to kill unarmed men, women, and children? NO!!! But I don't want this country to be overrun with illegals either. If they know what the possible consequences of their choice is and they STILL choose to cross the border then they have to accept the fact that they will be killed. Call me insensitive, call me intolerant, call me whatever but I stand by the fact that this spineless, mamby pamby, round em up and ship em back attitude and approach is NOT going to solve the Illegal immigration problem.

[kbarrett]

Jay, your not wrong this has nothing to do with civil rights or racial profiling, this is about keeping the people of Arizona safe and if the only way that can be done is to pass a new immagration law then so be it.

I have nothing against anybody coming to this country looking for a better life or work, and less face it most of these immagrants do the jobs that most people really don't want to do no matter how much they get paid, it's the attacks on innocent people that I have a problem with.

I also think we need to give our police officers a little more credit than we are, their job is to uphold the laws of this country and keep all of us safe from those who would do us harm, and they have a very hard job, more times than not their out gunned and out manned in most cases.

Just maybe it's time for pres. obama to step up to the plate, and do what is needed for this country and the good people with in, I don't know if sending the National Guard would make a difference or not, but if by doing that we can stop the violence then why not.

But it's not just the military or law enforcement, that needs to step up, it's the people they need to stand strong and together and fight to take back this country from those who would change our way of life or take it away from us, the indians fought hard to keep their counrty the way it was for them and they lost, are we going to let the samething happen to us, together where strong, apart we're weak.

This is the United States of America fought and died for more time than one can count, this is not going away anytime soon, the goverments next big push has been handed to them, on a silver plater, how they deal with it will make or break us all.

Sincerely
Ken Barrett

[TonyU]

Mr. Barrett exceptional post.

On another note remind me one day to tell you the story of how I was born with and had till third grade the name Antonio Barrett.

[Jay Bell]

Great, great post, Ken.

Jesus...we're getting hammered all over the place for this...and to my attention, I've yet to see anyone telling it like it is. As much as I can't stand Arpaio, at least he's standing up and putting his foot down across the news channels.

Even John Stewart...which is disappointing, because I like the guy a lot. SNL can screw off. It's been over a decade since they've had anything funny or with any wit.

Arpaio made it pretty clear last night in one of his interviews. He gave the example of a traffic sitation:

"Can I have your license and registration, please?"

"What is your date of birth and where were you born?"

Those two questions being used for everyone pulled over.

He laughed over the situation saying that the Maricopa Sheriff's Dept isn't changing anything, because they've done it this way for as long as he's been Sheriff (I'm sure some of you have heard about Arpaio's' illegal immigrant raids). I also loved seeing him tell Al Sharpton to mind his own business and that he didn't know what the hell he was talking about. :D

In a poll last night, 60% of the United States is in agreement with Arizona...that floored me. 31% were against. Strangely enough, 51% were concerned that this will break civil rights laws. While 70% of Arizonans were for the law to pass. Last time I checked, this was a democracy. If they don't like it, they can go back to Mexico...or wait for the cops to show up and cover the move for them. :dontknowwherethetongueincheeksmileyis:

We have 450,000 illegal immigrants in Arizona, none of which are paying taxes. In a time where we are broke, that would sure come in handy.

Speaking of crime, 20% of violent crime in Arizona is committed by illegal immigrants. Three Phoenix police officers have lost their lives in the last 12 months due to being shot and killed in the line of duty by illegal immigrants. Coyotes (people that transport illegal immigrant caravans across the border into the US for about $3000 a head) have open air gun fights with police and border patrol...and they pack heavy firepower.

Before going to work for myself, once every couple of weeks during my commute, I would see a van pulled over on the side of I-10 with lines of illegal immigrants sitting in cuffs being arrested to be processed and deported.

One of the big complaints I keep hearing (wrongly stated) is that it will take LEO away from violent crimes to focus on catching illegal immigrants. Four cop cars on the side of the road to round up caravans don't do that? Pish..

There's so many things that people outside of our state aren't looking at, nor do they seem to want to hear it.

[TonyU]

Here's something that was reminded to me today. We have similar provisions here in New Jersey and New York. Two of the most liberal state in the union.
The difference being is we do it at the arrest process. Arizona is just doing at any lawful encounter.
The problem we're having is that when we contact ICE, 95% of the time they don't follow through.

[Jay Bell]

Here's something that was reminded to me today. We have similar provisions here in New Jersey and New York. Two of the most liberal state in the union.
The difference being is we do it at the arrest process. Arizona is just doing at any lawful encounter.
The problem we're having is that when we contact ICE, 95% of the time they don't follow through.

We've had similar here, this is making it much more strict. Funny about the ICE part...the new law also states that if the state feels that the ICE, et al is not making progress or not following through, then those organizations can be sued for allowing those slip-ups (or laziness) to occur.

[Erik]

I'm just wondering, how does one go about applying for a work visa, residency, asylum, etc.?

My wife's family (all immigrants who started with asylum visas on account of their home country going insane with violent terrorism) did it all legally but had a miserable time with INS. I was incandescently livid a few times on account of how my father-in-law was treated.

I'm just wondering what the legal course entails (probably the last thing a born citizen would ever know). Can anyone describe it?

[Webmaster]

I'm just wondering, how does one go about applying for a work visa, residency, asylum, etc.?

My wife's family (all immigrants who started with asylum visas on account of their home country going insane with violent terrorism) did it all legally but had a miserable time with INS. I was incandescently livid a few times on account of how my father-in-law was treated.

I'm just wondering what the legal course entails (probably the last thing a born citizen would ever know). Can anyone describe it?
I deal with this all the time due to incoming foreign students, researchers, etc. It's a major pain in the butt, and depends upon the type of visa requested. When in doubt, the US State Department has painfully detailed information on different types of visas which may be obtained, and that should be your first source of information on the topic.

[Erik]

I was hoping for an abridged version :D to get a sense of what illegals are up against and how they make their decisions.

I'm all for making illegals illegal (irony intended) but the other side of that is having a rational and functional immigration program.

[David Craik]

NONE! There in lies one of the problems. How do we handle it? I get grief because of my statement that we should start shooting them and piling them up on the border as a deterrent.

I didn't give you grief; I said that your idea was 'interesting'. Sometimes a statement is so galactically absurd that it doesn't really require much commentary. It stands quite on it's own without 'grief'. If you can't see even the completely pragmatic ramifications of piling up human corpses beyond simply being 'insensitive' or 'intolerant', well, I don't know what to say. Glad I don't live in a country that you're running though.

Back to something less ridiculous, I think Arizona is going about this in exactly the right way, and I think other bordering states (and possibly all contiguous states at least until we have some kind of handle on this problem) should adopt the same laws. I'm reading a lot of interviews with illegals residing in Arizona and quite a few seem to be considering moving on to Utah, Texas, and New Mexico. I am seeing quite a few that plan on going back to Mexico too though, so even the threat of the impending enforcement is having some effect.

I can see the fear of 'racial profiling' but this is where common sense has to step in - the illegals in Arizona are, in fact, Hispanic. It's a simple fact. When I was an alien I could swear that I heard or read that I was supposed to have my green card with me, and in any case I would have had no problem with this. This has become an epidemic problem, so unfortunately hard decisions need to be made. As much as 'showing papers' elicits the spectre of Nazism for many, something has to be done. The unprecedented drain on resources trumps the inconvenience of people having to carry their green cards and visas to my mind.

Cracking down on employers is vital. If there are no jobs, nobody will come. Even when this recession first hit and new construction was at a standstill illegals were moving back to Mexico from my area. You couldn't even find any day workers hanging around the Home Depot. Security at the border needs to be beefed up as well. Physical security and personnel. All benefits for someone that can't prove that they are supposed to be here in the first place should vanish - no driver's licenses, no Medicaid, no food stamps, nothing.

Institutions should also stop kow-towing to Spanish-only speakers; unless you're on vacation or something you should learn friggin' English. Mexicans come in my wife's place of business and are frustrated that she can't speak Spanish, though we are well over 2000 miles from the Mexican border. This is equivalent to a Spaniard being incensed that nobody speaks Spanish in Wroclaw, Poland.

If anything, I think this should have been implemented a long time ago, before the problem reached such epidemic proportion. Police in Europe and Japan have no problem asking for papers, since overstaying visas is so common.

Crack down on visa-skipping like the Japanese have as well. Used to be you could scoot to Korea or the Philippines for a month and then get a new Japanese work visa, then start the clock again for another six months. Now that will usually work once. The illegals around here do the same thing, they just go back to Mexico for a month.

Napolitano seems like she should know the challenges Arizona faces on this issue better than almost anyone, but when she went Federal it's like she's turning a blind eye to the problem.

[kbarrett]

Daivd, your right cracking down on the employers that hire these illegal immigrants must be done, but what these employers will say is that these illegal immigrants will do the jobs (working in the fields pick crops) that nobody else will do, regardless of the pay. These employers need another alternative than hiring illegals to get the work done that they need to have done, and these illegal immigrant who will work long hours for very little pay.

This debate at just started and it's going to get heated, I also believe other states will follow what Arizona's doing, it's only a matter of time

Sincerely
Ken Barrett

[Erik]

Gosh, we could use all those teenagers back at work like in my grandparents' and parents' generation. Less video game time, less iPod, less idle useless time and back to work.

Just a thought.

[Don Roley]

I'm just wondering, how does one go about applying for a work visa, residency, asylum, etc.?

My wife's family (all immigrants who started with asylum visas on account of their home country going insane with violent terrorism) did it all legally but had a miserable time with INS. I was incandescently livid a few times on account of how my father-in-law was treated.

I'm just wondering what the legal course entails (probably the last thing a born citizen would ever know). Can anyone describe it?

Based on the experiences bringing my wife in, a lot of time at the embassy in whatever country you are coming from.

For anything like a work visa, I know there are some requirements. It is kind of a contradiction. IIRC, you need a sponsor before you come to the country saying they will hire you. Unless you are dealing with a company that does the recruiting and interviews in your country it is somewhat difficult.

I know there at least used to be a requirement that the job you were doing could not be filled with an American, but I think that loosened.

For people trying to get day labor, I can't see how it can be done.

Oh, and as an aside, I had to jump through hoops to get my wife a spousal visa and a green card. But since we had been married several years in Japan before I registered the marriage I am told I had a much easier time. They are not only looking for marriages to get people into the country, but they also are on the look out for scum bags that beat every wife they get and have to go to other countries for more victims.

[doubleouch]

Didn't read all the posts but there seems to be a misconception.To be clear, the civil rights people are talking about being violated are not the rights of the illegal aliens. It's the rights of legal citizens who happen to be brown. If you are getting extra scrutiny just because you happen to be brown then we have a problem. We either check the status of everybody or nobody. If the enforcement creates the extra hassle or offense of "driving while brown" we may have a violation. Remember all the issues with police racial profiling black drivers in Cali a few years ago?

[Erik]

I'm thinking more like "driving with an accent".

[Jay Bell]

Didn't read all the posts but there seems to be a misconception.To be clear, the civil rights people are talking about being violated are not the rights of the illegal aliens. It's the rights of legal citizens who happen to be brown. If you are getting extra scrutiny just because you happen to be brown then we have a problem. We either check the status of everybody or nobody. If the enforcement creates the extra hassle or offense of "driving while brown" we may have a violation. Remember all the issues with police racial profiling black drivers in Cali a few years ago?

If the same questions are asked to everyone that is stopped by law enforcement, it is not a civil rights issue now is it?

[Abbax8]

Didn't read all the posts but there seems to be a misconception.To be clear, the civil rights people are talking about being violated are not the rights of the illegal aliens. It's the rights of legal citizens who happen to be brown. If you are getting extra scrutiny just because you happen to be brown then we have a problem. We either check the status of everybody or nobody. If the enforcement creates the extra hassle or offense of "driving while brown" we may have a violation. Remember all the issues with police racial profiling black drivers in Cali a few years ago?

According to the law, on page 1, the police cannot ask for I.D. UNLESS they had another reason to stop and talk with the person, as in a traffic stop for exceeding the speed limit. Therefore, there is NO CIVIL RIGHTS problem here as the police will always ask for license and registration when they pull anyone over.

All of the talk of rights violations, racist laws, etc. are Red Herrings. They are playing the race card in the hope people will shut up like they have for the last 40 years every time it was played. Well guess what, people don't care anymore what you call them anymore. The insanity has to stop.

Did you see the Newspaper Headline that read, Arizona law makes it illegal to be in the country illegally. :confused:

DUH!!!!!

Dennis

[David Craik]

So you require everyone in the state to carry and produce ID if asked in conjunction with reasonable cause. Problem solved.

Honestly though, if I were of Hispanic heritage legally in a border state I would have no issues with having to carry a driver's license around, because I would recognize that they have an epidemic problem there. If we had an influx of brown-haired, blue-eyed illegal caucasian people in my area I'd have no problem simply carrying ID if it allowed authorities to get a handle on it.

The people lawful residents, citizens, and tourists should be mad at are the illegals that caused the problems in the first place!

[Don Roley]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100429/ap_on_re_us/us_immigration_day_labor_3

[Abbax8]

http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/mmalkin/2010/mm_04281.shtml

Dennis

[Abbax8]

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49620

Dennis

[kbarrett]

Well it's started, this immigrantion issue will divide this country like nothing before, as you've herd some mayors from other cities and states are calling for a boycot of Arizona over this new law. One is "sanctuary" city called san francisco where just last year an illegal immigrant killed a father and son, another is los angeles, there's even a riff in the republican party over this new law.

All everybody talks about is the how this bill will violate the rights of those who are hear legally, or how this is about racial profiling, I never hear anything talk about the rights of the people of Arizona to live in safety. last night as I was watching the news, it boiled my blood on how these people where slamming the Governor of Arizona, but most haven't read the bill or they weren't ever mentioning all ths violence or the killing of that ranger that sparked this new law.

If the Federal Goverment, would get off their buts and do soemthing to secure our boarder states and keep the people safe then this need by Arizona to issure their own law would never have happened. Hears another thought if this were say 100 years ago, then there wouldn't be any bill, the people themselves would do what they had to so they'd be safe from this kind of violence.

People have a right to keep themselves and their loved one safe from those who would do them harm.

Sincerely
Ken Barrett

[Jay Bell]

Let the country split. In all truth, I don't want to be aligned by ignorant twits anyway. The most outspoken are far detached from the days that we ever had to fight for something to keep our way of life safe and secure.

Last night on AZCentral.com's website (local Phoenix news station), here was the following poll:

What is your response to San Francisco's boycott of Arizona?

C.) I am amused. 80.08%

B.) I am angry. 11.47%

A.) I am chastened. 8.45%

Total Votes: 4544

[Jay Bell]

New Poll:

What is your opinion of Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon's plan to sue the state over its new immigration law?
B.) He is grandstanding. 73.60%
A.) He is making a brave stand. 19.85%
C.) Hard to say. 6.56%
Total Votes: 2333

[Erik]

There was some talk yesterday on NPR about how a lot of (2,000+) SF City jobs that are being funded by stimulus money are payrolled through a company in AZ. So doing the finances for SF-specific jobs is an outsourced job. Go figure.

Hard to boycott when you're that interdependent... :laugh:

[Abbax8]

Thank you Jay for really pointing out the law as it reads. Since this thread I've been watching the news. The media and opponents have been spreading so much misinformation it's ridiculous.

That's all part of their strategy. Lie. Lie BIG and Lie often. Eventually you will convince that part of the population who get their info from the Lame Stream Media that your lie is the Truth.

If they can win in the court of public opinion they have a chance to get their way. The Internet and networks like Fox and Talk Radio are our best hope to get the Truth out. But be prepared to be assaulted at work and other places by the misinformed.

Dennis

[Erik]

This pisses me off: Apparently, on Cinco de Mayo, many kids wore Mexican flags. 5 high school kids from Morgan Hill high school wore American flags on their shirts. These were sent home for being inappropriate or argumentative or something along those lines.

The superintendent later arbitrated (once the case landed on his desk) that they should not have been sent home. This weekend about 200 Hispanics protested at the school district office. Wearing the national flag is somehow subordinate to wearing a foreign flag to these people?!?!?!?

I'm all for incorporating Hispanic culture into the domestic American culture but let's be clear about which trumps which. Now I'm feeling more strongly about deporting illegals and taking border security seriously.

Side note: I played water polo with some Morgan Hill graduates who wore their HS speedos. Morgan Hill's mascot is an acorn. On the front was the phrase "Go Nuts!" Funny and a bit risque.

[Webmaster]

This pisses me off: Apparently, on Cinco de Mayo, many kids wore Mexican flags. 5 high school kids from Morgan Hill high school wore American flags on their shirts. These were sent home for being inappropriate or argumentative or something along those lines.

The superintendent later arbitrated (once the case landed on his desk) that they should not have been sent home. This weekend about 200 Hispanics protested at the school district office. Wearing the national flag is somehow subordinate to wearing a foreign flag to these people?!?!?!?

I'm all for incorporating Hispanic culture into the domestic American culture but let's be clear about which trumps which. Now I'm feeling more strongly about deporting illegals and taking border security seriously.

Side note: I played water polo with some Morgan Hill graduates who wore their HS speedos. Morgan Hill's mascot is an acorn. On the front was the phrase "Go Nuts!" Funny and a bit risque.
Erik, you do know this is already being discussed right?

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?27664-Students-Kicked-Off-Campus-for-Wearing-American-Flag-Tees

[Erik]

Sorry - still getting used to the new search results on my blackberry. My bad.

[Cliff Hargrave]

So you require everyone in the state to carry and produce ID if asked in conjunction with reasonable cause. Problem solved.



The ones opposed to carrying IDs, are the same ones opposed to catching and deporting illegal immigrants, and they are the same ones that are AGAINST showing picture IDs to friggin vote in this country. Plus they are the same ones that are for expanding the welfare state that provides for these illegal immigrants. Think there is a common thread running here???

[Erik]

Libertarians, Cliff... :laugh:

[shinbushi]

Problem with using driver's license in California is you can use Mexican Id as id to get your drivers license.

[dao]

Problem with using driver's license in California is you can use Mexican Id as id to get your drivers license.

TaKen from the California Department of Moter Vehicles website. Perhaps Californians should be concerned about all those illegal Canadians getting driver's liscenses though :laugh:

"Birth date verification and legal presence requirements

The issue of identification reliability, integrity, and confidentiality is of prime concern to all citizens. Eligibility for government services, issuance of various licenses, assessment of taxes, the right to vote, etc., are all determined through evaluations based on identification documents. It is critical that identification documents be authenticated and accurate in identifying each individual. The California driver license and ID card have been declared as primary identification documents in this state by the California legislature.

State law requires every applicant for an original California identification (ID) card and driver license to show verification of birth date and proof of legal presence within the United States to help safeguard the accuracy and integrity of departmental documents.

If your current name no longer matches the name on your birth date/legal presence document, see "True Full Name" and "How to Change Your Name" for more information.

Only the original or a certified copy of one of the following documents is acceptable:

US Birth Certificate (certified copy from state or local vital statistics office)
US Certificate of Birth Abroad or Report of Birth Abroad
Federal Proof of Indian Blood Degree
USCIS American Indian Card
Birth Certificate or passport issued from a US Territory

- US Passport or US Passport Card
- US Military Identification Cards (Active or reserve duty, dependent of a military member, retired member, discharged from service, medical/religious personnel)
- Common Access Card (only if designated as Active military or Active Reserve or Active Selected Reserve)
- Certificate of Naturalization or Citizenship
- Northern Mariana Card
- USCIS US Citizen ID Card
- Permanent Resident Card
- Temporary Resident Identification Card
- Canadian Passport/Birth Certificate
- Non-resident Alien Canadian Border Crossing Card
- Valid foreign passport with a valid Record of Arrival/Departure (form I-94)
"Processed for I-551" stamped in a valid foreign passport
- Permanent Resident Re-entry Permit
- Refugee travel document
- Certified court order or judgment issued from a court of competent jurisdiction. Must contain name, birth date, place of birth, legal presence status, and judge’s signature.
- Certification from California Department of Corrections or California Youth Authority
- Employment Authorization Card
- Valid I-94 stamped "Refugee," "Parole or Parolee," "Asylee," or Section 207, Section 208, Section 209, Section 212d(2), HP or PIP
- Valid I-94 with attached photo stamped "Processed for I-551 temporary evidence of lawful admission for permanent residence"
- Notice of Action (I-797 Approved Petition) – must indicate approved extension of stay or change in status that grants temporary or permanent residency, or indicates that an original, duplicate or renewal Resident Alien card is forthcoming.
- Immigration judge’s order granting asylum
- Mexican Border Crossing Card with valid I-94
- U.S. Border Crossing Identification card with valid I-94 "

[Jay Bell]

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/immigration/holder-hasnt-read-sb-1070-5-13-2010

[Webmaster]

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/immigration/holder-hasnt-read-sb-1070-5-13-2010
LOL, no surprise there. :rolleyes:

It sure would be nice if we had some adults running things in Washington.

[Jay Bell]

Hilarious:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/weblogs/watercooler/2010/may/15/audio-interview-la-city-councilman-attacks-ariz-la/

[Jay Bell]

http://hotair.com/archives/2010/05/18/az-utility-board-member-responds-to-la-boycott-over-sb1070/

[Jay Bell]

To go along with the last post...we also, via the Colorado River, supply an enormous amount of water to LA....as well as housing inmates that they cannot be put up due to the prison system being over-run.

BUT...that wasn't the point of this post. I wanted to share a post from an immigrant in strong support of the new immigration law:


"I just want to let you guys know that today I--along with all 4,200 immigrants at the ceremony— am now a U.S. citizen. I cannot tell you guys how proud I am to be an American and the first to do so in my family (along with my mom and brother) . With that being said, I was quite amazed how welcomed I was during the (oath) ceremony and was greeted with such warm welcome. I just want to thank our men in uniform, who gave out their lives in order for people like me to join this great country. Thank you everyone, and god bless America!"

That's how it's done.

[Jay Bell]

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/2010/05/19/20100519arizona-immigration-law-scenarios.html

[Cliff Hargrave]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/05/20/mexicos-calderon-takes-case-congress/

He should not come here and criticize a law when his country is a cess-pool of corruption and violence. The fact that the Democrats applauded him is disgraceful.

The whole problem exists BECAUSE his country is so screwed up people flee it by the millions.

[Jonathan Randall]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/05/20/mexicos-calderon-takes-case-congress/

He should not come here and criticize a law when his country is a cess-pool of corruption and violence. The fact that the Democrats applauded him is disgraceful.

The whole problem exists BECAUSE his country is so screwed up people flee it by the millions.

Exactly.

Mexico is a basket case of corruption, narco-trafficking and terror, organized crime kidnappings (it's an entire industry in some cities there), poverty and dysfunction at all levels. What makes it even more galling to have him here lecturing us is the memory of the large bailouts of the corrupt and dysfunctional Mexican financial system (they make American business scandals look tame by comparison) that have been financed by U.S. Taxpayers.

Oh, and Jay, that was a great quote by the legal immigrant recently sworn in as a U.S. Citizen. Let them do it the right way as that one did. Also, extra respect is due those legal immigrants who obtain American Citizenship after serving in the U.S. Armed Forces. A few years ago, I heard a very good radio interview by a legal immigrant turned U.S. Citizen who was serving as a Warrant Officer and helicopter pilot in the U.S. Army deployed overseas.

[tiger_rf]

my attitude is they are enforcing FEDERAL laws that obama flat refuses to enforce because he wants to kiss everyone's butt except his own people and allies..

[tiger_rf]

TaKen from the California Department of Moter Vehicles website. Perhaps Californians should be concerned about all those illegal Canadians getting driver's liscenses though :laugh:



you have no idea. california is the only state i have ever seen that has the drivers test in 9 different languages....its crazy...

[Jay Bell]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/05/20/mexicos-calderon-takes-case-congress/

He should not come here and criticize a law when his country is a cess-pool of corruption and violence. The fact that the Democrats applauded him is disgraceful.

The whole problem exists BECAUSE his country is so screwed up people flee it by the millions.

Thank you. I have rarely felt a level of pissed off that matched what I felt when this happened.

What has come up recently has floored me...and not. California has an almost identical law on record years old. The only primary difference is that the said person has to be arrested before things move forward. Otherwise...it's in the books, yet not enforced.

Boycotts, other states getting involved, Celebs speaking out (that can't read)....anything happen when Cali passed their version of this law? Nope.

[kbarrett]

The Mexican Pres. really should keep his mouth shut, about what takes place here in the United States, but what dose this say about our own pres. allowing anybody from another country to get up in our congress and tell us how he feels about our laws and the way we're doing things. obama is only making us look weak in the eyes of those who would do us harm.

Ken Barrett

[Erik]

Mexico is our neighbor and is understandably interested in what goes on here. Foreign leaders often speak to congress or other parts of our gov't. Nothing strange about that.

That being said, the converse is true, too - Calderon deserves to get it right back at him, as well. Good post, Jon.

[AllanJGAnderson]

Exactly.
A few years ago, I heard a very good radio interview by a legal immigrant turned U.S. Citizen who was serving as a Warrant Officer and helicopter pilot in the U.S. Army deployed overseas.

His service should have no bearing on the immigration debate and mentioning serving while talking politics can be risky business. There recently was a guy, who between medic school and his first duty station took leave in his home state of Arizona, in uniform, conducted an interview with the press about it. The kids a private and by no means represents the US military's view. Never followed up on it, but I reckon he went to a sh!t-storm when he got to wherever he was going.

[dao]

you have no idea. california is the only state i have ever seen that has the drivers test in 9 different languages....its crazy...

Since I live in California, I also have first hand knowledge of the CA DMV. I try to avoid dealing with them as much as possible.

[tiger_rf]

Since I live in California, I also have first hand knowledge of the CA DMV. I try to avoid dealing with them as much as possible.

yeah me too....thats why im getting AAA so the ONLY time i have to go in there is to renew my license..lmao

[Jay Bell]

President Obama is sending 1200 National Guard troops to the Arizona border to help with border security. Regardless of reasoning, I'm impressed.

[Webmaster]

I'll believe it when they are actually there and performing actual enforcement.

[Erik]

Jay - I heard that people can be fined for not leaving out water for illegals in parts of AZ. Is there any truth to this?

[Jonathan Randall]

His service should have no bearing on the immigration debate and mentioning serving while talking politics can be risky business. There recently was a guy, who between medic school and his first duty station took leave in his home state of Arizona, in uniform, conducted an interview with the press about it. The kids a private and by no means represents the US military's view. Never followed up on it, but I reckon he went to a sh!t-storm when he got to wherever he was going.

He was not speaking on the Immigration issue, nor any other political issue. His status as a naturalized U.S. citizen just came up in the interview, IIRC. My point was that going the legal route is the best way and many have done so and achieved great success and contributed to the U.S. in many ways. In his case, military service.

[Jay Bell]

Jay - I heard that people can be fined for not leaving out water for illegals in parts of AZ. Is there any truth to this?

Absolutely not. People leave water out voluntarily.

[Erik]

Absolutely not. People leave water out voluntarily.

Is that a common custom in AZ? Just trying to get a sense of the culture and what it actually looks like there.

[Jay Bell]

I wouldn't say it's the norm, but there are groups that go out and fill up water tanks so that the illegals coming over don't die on the way.