Concerns about my Aikido Training

[Phaedrus]

I'm hoping other members of Aikido or any technique for that matter can help me clear up some concerns i have with my study of this art.
(Realy Short version below)
My main concern is usefulness.
When i'm studying at my dojo here we go through all these techniques and movements and "spars" and such, but every time i leave i don't feel as if i could use aikido if i were really attacked.
I know it is suppose to take a long time, and i'm still prepared for that. But what i feel i missing is a way to increase my response time... what good is knowing a defensive throw if you are too slow to act?

the other thing that bothers me is that aikido definately takes two to learn correctly. But no one i know enjoys training (they'd much rather fantizies about dream cars) so i'm left with only the dojo, and there is a huge gap in skills (lots of 7th level people and many 3rd kyu and higher) so its hard to find a good training partner, especially outside of the dojo. So in short...

1. How does one make Aikido useful and increase readiness (Reaction time)
2. How does one train by themselves?

Thank you very much

Oh, by the way. I was thinking that maybe i could take a second martial art to hone (sp) skills like accuracy and reaction time, but i wouldn't know a good one, any suggestions?

[aiki craig]

:alien:
Hello my friend.
Just stick at it longer. Most junior grades at one time or another feel this way. You could look around at other clubs of Aikido to see if it feels more practical. Some Aikido like Tohei`s Ki Society stress internal training,then self defence and ones like Tenshin Aikido stress practical usage first. If you really want to stay at Aikido i suggest you be patient with your club or look around at other Aikido.

Also show your teacher respect and tell him how you feel. He may be willing to give advice to you.

Good luck
Craig

[Phaedrus]

thanks, i suppose i am a pretty low level and probably haven't seen what aikido can do for me.

[TkdWarrior]

well this is opinion coming from a TKDist rather than aikidoka...
i hav seen lots of aikidoka's try to catch punches out of thin air, man punches r naturally faster than grab's... n which gets feeling of something missing... one can catch it out of thin air(happened with me but the guy was practicing from 20+ yrs) but it's rare...
find someone to train/spar with who is of different style than urs(ie striking arts like karate/TKD/kungfu) then u'll know more about timing distances

I know it is suppose to take a long time, and i'm still prepared for that.
IMHO if it takes long time then i guess u r wrong, if u need any skill in saving ur life then u need it now rather than later... sometimes teacher can be looking for good base so here talking to teacher will help...

[aiki craig]

:( Timing is as important to learn as speed. You can be super fast but if you cant hit your target because your timing is poor, speed becomes less important.

People seem to believe, we in Aikido will automatically try to grab a punch/kick, but only if the situation permits. Aikido does have more to it than just grabs and pins.

take care everyone, train safe

[Lawrence]

Hi there,

Yep, Aikido will take a long tiime to learn from a self defense aspect, but so what!!?

At the end of the day, I take the opinion that you practice aikijujutsu but live aikido. By this I mean that the techniques are two a penny, you will see a nikajo, sankyo or kotogaeshi in all kinds of martial arts from all around the world. But aikido is the practice of taking the lessons of joining, harmonising and generally going with the flow of things and not getting stressed about it. Take this to a situation, apply these lessons well and the attack will rarly arrive.

Don't look at aikido as a case of 'he punches me like this, I turn and do such-a-such technique' but rather enjoy the moving around bit and consider what the funadmental principles of the technique are and transcribe these to your daily life.

Just a thought,

My views...

Take care,

Lawrence.

[Phaedrus]

Good bits of Philosophy from all of you thanks.

I suppose its easy to get caught up in the idea that to train means to become better to ultimately defeat your opponent. There was a reason i started aikido and it was for the peaceful nature of its teachings. Perhaps i had forgotten that.

-Thanks

[aiki craig]

Hi Phaedrus
just interested to know how your Aikido training is going. If things get you down again, the trick is to ask the senior students" why they have kept it up for years". It may inspire you. There are also great Aikido demo tapes which you could view. Stephen Seagal has a newish video out, if you want to see some harsh Aikido . Its Actual class footage and seminars he has done.
BEST OF LUCK
Craig
Aikido Yuishinkai N.Z:cool:

[rpnp]

First of all time will tell... so just give yourself a chance and it will eventually come naturally
I was blessed that the late Master Tri Thong Dang left his students with a kata for aikido so that is basically how i train by myself
Also i have found that if you practice Kendo or bushido, alot of the movements are similar in form

[John Bunting]

In my an opinion, Phaedrus, most of us tend to forget that martial arts weren't designed for students who train two or three times a week, usually for no more than 2 hours at a go. Traditional training was a full time affair. Consequently we find it takes longer to become even a little proficient at our chosen art.

In addition, I think that training in any arts take a while before it becomes an effective means of self defence. Although some arts give the impression that they can be applied in "real" life after only a month or so training, I think that tends to overlook the fact that they still rely upon a high degree of skill to perform properly. Proper timing, distancing and so forth take a long time to develop. A mistimed gyaku tsuki is no more effective than a mistimed tenchi nage.

Yours in Budo
John

[chrtorres]

Phaedrus,


I would say speak with your Instructor - He/She may have the answer for you - maybe the will give you more training - or by letting you come and view more advanced classes -

We all go through this during our career/journey in the arts - remember you are responsible for what you want out of it.

If you don't think Aikido - is giving you exactly what you need right now - I would suggest go view a boxing gyms fighters or even join - but stay with your Aiki!!!! - look at how you might be able to use your techniques from a fighters point of view. I believe visualization training is a great tool -

I've heard it before - don' t know by whom exactly - but - if the mind can concieve it - the body can achieve it.

Happy training.

[Lawrence]

Hi there,

Personally, I think views and minds of individuals like you (see post above) to be out of order and frankly very inappropriate.

If you are trying to upset people, do it somewhere else. If you are genuine with your viewpoint regarding aikidoka, then please keep it to yourself. If you are joking... Why?

Sorry, but I don't like to see pathetic little posts like this, it is not in the true spirit of budo. Please consider an appology or at least an explaination for your ignorance.

Take care,

Lawrence Fisher.

[chrtorres]

Lawrence,

I'm not sure why you seem to think my views are inappropriate, have I said anything unjust to you or Phaedrus - I was answering the questions posed.

You say the "true spirit of Budo" - Is everyones path the same as yours

- If Phaedrus is not happy with the training he is currently recieving and wants more realism for his own personal growth then why not look at alternative to supplment his training as well as ask for help from dojo brothers/sisters. His question was about usefullness and personal selfdefense.

He also states "but every time i leave i don't feel as if i could use aikido if i were really attacked:

I'm in No way joking or trying to ridicule Aikido - I really can not believe you have the conscious to be closed minded. Did I say leave Aiki - it's not good - did I say anything in that nature?

It's really upsetting to hear another martial artists downing any art as well as people ideas

All I did was share my views - :anger:

You judged me with no right - is that true budo?!?!?!

[Lawrence]

NO, NO , NO ,NO!!!!!


I do not have ANY issues with what you have written, quite the contrary!....


I was actually writting to some fool who went by the name of sexandthecity who had basically posted something obscene and was not playing fair game.

His post has been taken from the board, leaving just mine (looks very confusing I know) please except my appologise for any misrepresentations you may have had.

Take care,

Lawrence Fisher.

P.S. I practice and teach aikido, I actually second what oyu had to say, please don't take it the wrong way.

[chrtorres]

I apologize for my slight outburst - but My post was the only one above yours when I saw the thread -

A miscommunication -

Happy Training

[Lawrence]

Thank you.

Again, sorry. No need for you to appologise, afterall, if I hadn't been so hastey to to the fool exactly what I thought none of this would never have happened.

Take care,

Lawrence Fisher.

[damoon]

It seems that many people have had a much different experience than me with akido. A friend of mine who outweighs me by about 20 pounds was going on and on about how akido was the greatest thing since sliced bread (he has had 3 years experience) well i have a limited boxing knowledge and asked him if he wanted to box. We did and it wasnt pretty he tried to block abd grab my hands out of the air but he was constantly a step behind and if you were attacked you cant be a step behind.

Afterwards he said that i had an unfair advantage because he couldnt grab my wrists and do any throws. I understood his point and we had another go at it. All grappling no punches or kicks. Now im no slouch in grappling 4 years of wrestling coupled with a good bit of JJ knowledge. Well we started he was standing straight up and i shot a double leg. His responce when he was lieing on the ground was thats unfair i didnt know what to do.

This may just be one instance of it but i am not conviced if he was having so much difficulty with just coming close to going full go. If it was a street fight he would be in quite a bit of trouble

Damon Shuler

[Lawrence]

Hi there.

Glad you gave your friend a bit of a wake up call!! :D

Most people who do aikido do just as he does, they concentrate only on the locks. A friend of mine has set up a school of martial arts, predominently what he teches is aikido. But it is a little bit different. In his words, 'he lives aikido, but teaches aikijutsu.' This, when you see him, makes a lot of sense. He is a bit of an old boy, missing hisi two front teeth and used to do some rather silly things such as fights for money. The mad old git used to get nocked out while his friend would watch, take note of where he was hit and time how long it took for him to come to again. Thats why the teeth are missing; apparently without the teath (someone please tell me how to spell!!! :)) he is less likly to be knocked out when hit on the chin.

Anyway, I digress....

What he teaches is kyushu. vital point strikes, now if you look at Daito ryu there are many hidden (as well as obvious) strikes. Now, when you loiok at aikido, it don't work! Thats becouse most people neglect to consider the need for these strikes before any techniques can be applied. So, my mate when he teaches aikijutsu, adds huge amounts of emphasis on kyusho and atemi. These tehn lead to opportunities where the wrist (for example) can be grabbed.

Just one of my perosnal problems with aikido, stops being effective when the strikes are removed and simply becomes moving medatiation.

Personally, I would rather use iaido for moving meditation.

Teach your mate how to hit people and you will probably find he will be a hell of a lot more effective.

Good luck.

Lwarnece Fisher.

[moksha]

phaedrus,

I was looking through the forums and I happened to come across your post. I would like to answer by saying that I am a hapkidoist, actually Hapkiyoosool, or (aiki ju-jutsu). I have heard alot of stories just like yours and I feel your frustration. Most aikido schools I have visited train very slow with their attacks, this does cause a problem because no one on the street is going to attack you slow. You have to understand, and I don't mean any disrespect by saying this, but GM ueishiba only studied under Takeda sensei and the daito ryu aiki ju-jutsu system for5 years, he did not learn alot of the faster defences or smaller circle techniques as did GM Choi Young-Sul, founder of hapkido did. Ueishiba also did not learn any of the pressure point applications that is essential to the circular arts. Infact GM Ueishiba use to come to our HQ and study with some of the greatest GM of the art of hapkido. We train using full speed attacks to prepare for real life situations. So, I just wanted to say try the other ppl advise from this forum, and if you still don't feel comfortable then maybe try a good and traditional Hapkido dojang, or maybe a traditional aiki ju-jutsu dojo. Good luck with your training.:D

[ushankido]

moksha:

According to the book Best Aikido by Kisshomaru and Moriteru Ueshiba it states that O' Sensei studied many kinds of martial arts systems which include but not limited to: yagyu ryu, shinyo ryu, kito ryu, daito ryu, shinkage ryu, kenjutsu, sojutsu, and so on.

His father enrolled him with the judoka Kiyoichi Takagi as a student and learned kodokan style of judo as well as receiving a certificate from the Goto school.

For further reading on O'Sensei, please refer to the following book "Budo" that gives you the history of O'Sensei.

<<Ueishiba also did not learn any of the pressure point applications >>

Aikido has and teaches pressure point applications.

<<GM Ueishiba use to come to our HQ and study with some of the greatest GM of the art of hapkido.>>

When did O'Sensei travel to your hapkido HQ.? I never heard of him traveling to Korea.

[roninja]

aikido is teh defensivist of defensive arts. as a junior if you have most likely learned the walking kata and other basic movements that are preparing you for the in depth, faster movements and techniques. if you want to practice their application, practice them a lot. if you are afraid that you are not going to be fast enough, consider this, the footwork in aikido is highly based off the footwork of kenjutsu (swordfighting) so it's not wrong to practice them fast. just remember you're not learning how to kick some, you're learning how to save yours.

[backwardwalker]

It seems that many people have had a much different experience than me with akido. A friend of mine who outweighs me by about 20 pounds was going on and on about how akido was the greatest thing since sliced bread (he has had 3 years experience) well i have a limited boxing knowledge and asked him if he wanted to box. We did and it wasnt pretty he tried to block abd grab my hands out of the air but he was constantly a step behind and if you were attacked you cant be a step behind.

Afterwards he said that i had an unfair advantage because he couldnt grab my wrists and do any throws. I understood his point and we had another go at it. All grappling no punches or kicks. Now im no slouch in grappling 4 years of wrestling coupled with a good bit of JJ knowledge. Well we started he was standing straight up and i shot a double leg. His responce when he was lieing on the ground was thats unfair i didnt know what to do.

This may just be one instance of it but i am not conviced if he was having so much difficulty with just coming close to going full go. If it was a street fight he would be in quite a bit of trouble

Damon Shuler

Yep. Actions speak louder than words. Finally someone pointing out the truth about Aikido. The sad fact is that your skills would have the same effect on nearly all of the Aikidoka, regardless of rank and experience. They don't train to defend against real punches or real wrestling moves so how will they ever be able to comfortably handle when someone uses these attacks. Please let more Aikidoka hear about this story and it's valuable lesson.
It bugs me that Aikidoka don't practice against real attacks like yours. I want to change the way Aikido is practiced so that it becomes realistic. I could have shown your buddy how to counter your attacks in about 15 minutes of practice. To handle the boxing attacks, he should have protected his head by keeping his forearms in front of his face like a boxer and then moved into a tie up and tried Aikido from there. To handle the tackle he should have gotten you in an inside bicep tie up and forced you to extend an arm to start his Aiki moves. I have been training to use Aikido with a little boxing and wrestling for a few years now. It's very interesting the new things I've dis-covered. You should keep exploring the idea of how Aikido can handle attacks like yours. What have you found that works?
Mark T

[Gus615]

I have not trained in Aikido. I have tried a suspended speed bag, hangs from ceiling and is anchored at floor; uses leather ball type bag and bungee chords. It did increase my ease and speed or reaction...blocking. You might give it a try.

[Peter Rehse]

Hi Tim

Welcome to the "I resurected a long dead thread club". You join good company and I think you can not be a real member of Budoseek until you do.


But it was a good topic so I'll join in.

Most Aikido training lacks full resistance randori and it is far easier to gain confidence with punch/kicks although I would same a lot of that is misplaced. Aikido is a great art but it definately can't hurt to do a bit of cross-training.

Judo is great and a PK art has some use, especially one which gives you the chance of getting hit. I always recommend people getting serious about Aikido (three years or so and still enthusiastic) to take Judo for a year and then a PK art for about the same amount of time.

Two possiblities:

#1 you will find these arts suit you better and your Aikido experience will enhance your new found love.

#2 your cross-training experience will show you the true potential of Aikido

[ziggy1981]

A lof of what you get from a martial art is the dojo you train at. Look at your options and maybe you will find a dojo that better suits what your looking for. I would agree with you though that it takes a fair amount of time to learn any martial art and be able to apply it to a real life situation and nobody is gonna offer you there hand for kote gaish when there trying to mug you so that is a puzzle that you have to find out for yourself.

[Lawrence]

Hi all!

Well I haven't posted for a long while, sort of felt that the same things were being said time and time again, so I needed a break so it would feel fresh again.

Well, sorry for my ramblings, but hopefully it will make sense in the end.

I think people tend to forget that we live in an age where martial arts are no longer about attack and defence, well, some are, but because we live in a relatively peaceful time arts have been able to diversify and investigate all kinds of human development, from the physical, emotional, thoughtful and spiritual.

Now depending on what you want from a system will (or should) inform you to where you start. For instance, you might start off in the community of martial arts by a desire to become fitter, perhaps starting in your home with some boxercise DVD or similar.

Over time you might find that training on your own is boring, inviting mates round to join in just doesn't work, so you visit a local community hall and start kick boxing or something similar so you can get fit and physical with others.

In time you would probably get to be quite friendly with the instructor and find out that they gained a dan rank in karatedo (or something similar), this could influence you to find a karate class. Chances are, you pick the one that is closest to you and practices on the most suitable days, afterall, you do have a life to live!

Well for a bit, your karate training is going well, so you pick up a few books and read about the history behind the style you are practicing and find out about the big names of your system. Along the way you will find out about other styles of karate that have different emphasis in their backgrounds.

Well as they say, 'curiousity killed the cat' and as a human your curiosity gets the better of you, so you hunt out a different style of karate, just to have a look. You get there and love it! So, for a time, you train in all 3 systems and boy are you fit! Your Boxercise DVD now gathers dust and acts as a wonder door wedge and your book collect has increased in size and you have started to read about the way karate came to be, along the way you hear about other martial arts and see how similar they can be.

But unfortunately training every day of the week is starting to pay its toll as well as running a 9-5 job and keeping your partner happy, so something has to give. Naturally you try to keep a little bit of everything going but in the end decisions have to be made. So evaluation time arives. Why did I start doing martial arts anyway? Why do I still do martial arts? What has changed? Where the hell is my DVD? Where can I get a bigger bookself for my growing libary? Enlightened moment hits. You will stop doing kickboxing.

Now this is only one starting point. But this type of meditation on something needs to be done from time to time because as you develop you see different things and want different things from your system, this isn't to say that your system does not have these things, but rather you are unable to see them. Most people start a martial art for one reason but continue to train for a magnitude of other reasons.If you are lucky, the system you first pick will grow with you and give you all that you are looking for in an order that suites. But that is unlikely. The likelihood is that you will have a period of cross training, its a bit like sticking your toe in bath water to test the temperature, when the water is just right you can slip in. You will investigate many styles, systems and arts, learn stuff along the way, but eventually you will find one that just feels right to you.

Eventually you will find a point when preconceived ideas will be lost and everything you have done and are doing will become yours. If you have started on the path of aiki you are on a long journey, but if you have jumped on the methods of krav maga you may find the road a bit shorter. All depends on what you want from a martial art.

I hope you all will forgive me for this, well, rambling.

Good luck to all! Train hard and talk less.

Take care,


Lawrence Fisher.

[Aikidog]

Most Aikido training lacks full resistance randori and it is far easier to gain confidence with punch/kicks although I would same a lot of that is misplaced. Aikido is a great art but it definately can't hurt to do a bit of cross-training.

Judo is great and a PK art has some use, especially one which gives you the chance of getting hit. I always recommend people getting serious about Aikido (three years or so and still enthusiastic) to take Judo for a year and then a PK art for about the same amount of time.

Two possiblities:

#1 you will find these arts suit you better and your Aikido experience will enhance your new found love.

#2 your cross-training experience will show you the true potential of Aikido

Hi Peter,

That's exactly what I plan to do. Take Karate and Judo as well as Aikido. What PK art are you planning to take. My Aikido instructor is high ranked in traditional Okinawan Karate (5th dan) and is really a Karateka at heart. He said that Aikido and Karate blend very well together. A lot of people have suggested kick boxing, but I find I like the more "traditional" feel of the Japanese arts. Besides I don't want to be training in a speedo like those MMA guys! :D

Do you practice regular Kodokan Judo? Do you feel it covers ground techniques (newaza) adequately? I think if I was practicing Judo that would be my main training focus. Competion would be the last thing on my mind.

[Peter Rehse]

What PK art are you planning to take.
I took Nippon Kenpo when I was young and enthusiastic. Basically armored up full contact Japanese boxing although anything goes. Besides getting tired of the three day headaches after competition it sparked my interest in joint techniques. It started my drift to Aikido.

Just regular judo at the local club. I got to say its very limiting to say you are interested in this but not that. Judo has a lot to offer on the ground and standing, and competition is part of that. At the very least competition gives you a chance to develope fighting spirit something that you just can't get by talking about it.

During my last judo grading grading competion one of my opponents was outclassed by weight, strength and skill. I had my forearm on his throat and was applying quite a bit of pressure and I invited him to tap out. I'll always remember him shouting out "never" and fighting to the last. That impressed me - no posturing just total commitment to the moment.