Respect Thy sensei [Archive] - BudoSeek! Martial Arts Community Forums

Kimpatsu

01-25-2003, 11:05

Originally posted by ky_
"In China there was a man who liked pictures of dragons,
His deep affection for dragons was brought to the attention of the dragon god, one day a real dragon appeared before his window,it is said that he died of fright,
He was probably a man who spoke big words but acted differently when facing the real thing"
this is like u!
OK. (Rolls up his sleeves and goes to work.)
"In China, there ONCE was a man who liked pictures of dragons.
His deep affection for dragons was brought to the attention of the dragon god, SO one day a real dragon appeared before his window. IT is said that he died of fright."
He was probably a man who spoke big words, but acted differently when facing the real thing.
THIS is like U!
THANT? What does the dictator of Burma have to do with this?
(Please note the grammatical and spelling corrections made to the above anecdote.)
---
If you're over there, I say sorry.
If you're over here, YOU say sorry.
---
Hey, KY Jelly, lighten up and develop a sense of humour.
BTW, which Aberdeen? Scotland, Canada, or New Zealand?

ky_

01-25-2003, 11:08

" Sorry i do have a good sense of humer i waz just f-in with ya,
i like long arguments their fun"

p.s in Scotland

Kimpatsu

01-25-2003, 11:08

Originally posted by ky_
" U say that i am welcom to find u to cut u down but how would u act if i did"
"moking is what the weak do"!!!!!!
??? :confused:
Can anybody translate this into English?

Kimpatsu

01-25-2003, 11:10

Originally posted by ky_
"p.s in Scotland
My step-father's from Aberdeen. If you're not Rabbie Burns, stop trying to spell like he did. :D

ky_

01-25-2003, 11:10

"sorry i never tipe a lot of full words, thats why i spell so bad when i tipe, i miss out lettrs".

ky_

01-25-2003, 11:11

"so we do have something in comn"

Kimpatsu

01-25-2003, 11:21

Originally posted by ky_
"so we do have something in comn"
Such as?
At least I can spell. (Jokes about witches will get you BANNED!) :D

ky_

01-25-2003, 11:24

"ok ill get a sense of humer if YOU stop the spelling jokes "

Kimpatsu

01-25-2003, 11:26

Originally posted by ky_
"ok ill get a sense of humer if YOU stop the spelling jokes "
I'm not joking. In a written environment such as this one, good spelling and grammar are gold.
Why do you even need to be told this?

ky_

01-25-2003, 11:26

"see how i am using real words now such as- you"

ky_

01-25-2003, 11:29

"i only use short hand to hide otherwise would be spelling mistakes, i cant spell at the best of times"
p.s"happy now"?

Kimpatsu

01-25-2003, 11:31

No. Learn to spell, for common courtesy towards other users.
If no can unn'stand, no can debate, righ'?

ky_

01-25-2003, 11:33

"ok i will try, for a man should always try to better himself am i right"?

ky_

01-25-2003, 11:37

"it is said that it is best to point out anothers mistakes by touching on his own, how can a man better himself if he is shamed,this can only damage his disposition."

"think on this my friend"

Kimpatsu

01-25-2003, 11:38

Originally posted by ky_
"ok i will try, for a man should always try to better himself am i right"?
Yes.

Kimpatsu

01-25-2003, 11:39

Originally posted by ky_
"it is said that it is best to point out anothers mistakes by touching on his own, how can a man better himself if he is shamed,this can only damage his disposition."
"think on this my friend"
Tu quoque is a logical fallacy. (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm)

ky_

01-25-2003, 11:41

"we should get back to the point of my thread"

ky_

01-25-2003, 11:42

"dont hesitate to share your views"

Kimpatsu

01-25-2003, 11:46

Originally posted by ky_
"we should get back to the point of my thread"
Which was? It kinda got lost in the spelling errors.

Kimpatsu

01-25-2003, 11:47

Originally posted by ky_
"dont hesitate to share your views"
I dunno; I'm kinda bashful...

ky_

01-25-2003, 11:49

"just read frome the start and miss out the argument then tell me your views"

Jason H

01-25-2003, 11:53

Respect is an issue that was discussed in an earler forum. I personally feel that I wil at all times respect my sensi. Anyone studying the martial arts would (I hope) know enough about their techer ahead of time, to formulate (among other things) whether that particular instructor is worthy of one's respect. If the answer is no, then why the heck would you bother to study under such a man?

ky_

01-25-2003, 12:00

"pleas give me your views on my threads on BUSHIDO in this forum and Karate-gone soft? in the karate forums"thank u

Jason H

01-25-2003, 12:03

Did you get the "pm" I sent to you??

ky_

01-25-2003, 12:27

"ye i sent u 1 back"

riku

01-26-2003, 10:12

As noticed, issues of respect have been discussed before.

But taking the heading of thread, I certainly respect my sensei/sa bue nim/ teachers (I also respect my senses; they tell me not to walk under trucks on highway ;) ) More over, I try respect the possibility of learning different issues, even grammar, and not take advices as an insult pointed toward me...

Kimpatsu, I must say that you have a quick mind and nice way to argue :D . That keeps one alerted: must think what to say, and how to say it.

Yours all,
Riku Ylönen

dao

01-26-2003, 11:23

When it comes to MA, I think there are different levels of respect:

1st level there is curtesy which I try to extend to everyone- at least initially and I think of things like using language which everyone understands as part of curtesy

2nd there is respect motivated by fear- the I don't really like you and so I plan to spend as little time as possible with you but, you could break me in two so I'm going out of my way not to upset you type of respect

3rd there is respect motivated by admiration- this is the I like you and want to model my behavior after you respect

4th there is the respect I give my teachers- which is I like you so much that I am willing to spend my hard earned money and my limited amount of free time to seek you out and learn how to be like you

I deeply apologize for any spelling or grammatical indiscretions :bow:

sharonhawker

03-01-2003, 08:33

I agree with Deborah about there being different levels of respect.
When I first meet a visiting sensei, I give them the curtesy kind of respect, because I don't know them. I have deep respect for the commitment to training they must have to attain the level they are (assuming I know a little of their history - Most of us have met or heard of people purporting to be be 5th, 6th or whatever dan when they have been in martial arts only a few short years).
When I train Under a Sensei, that respect either grows into deep respect for them or I do not train under them again.
On the reverse side of the coin, If a student did not show me the proper respect, I would not allow them to train under me. Obviously, I would expect them to start with common curtesy as a beginner and then gradually grow into the same respect I have for my senseis
Sharon

Rich

03-01-2003, 10:09

I think Debra is right about different kinds of respect. In terms of your Sensei, I feel that you should initially respect them out of politeness in the same way you should respect all people whom you meet for the first time. Hopefully, this will grow into an earned respect as they show you the Way you have chosen and guide you. I think it's important that the respect is earned and not simply demanded.

Just my opinion!

Richard.

sharonhawker

03-01-2003, 11:11

Debra,
sorry that I mispelt your name earlier.
Sharon:)

Jeannette

03-07-2003, 15:24

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Right on!

Tony, you are so funny and witty! I nearly cried from laughing so hard! ha ha ha

Songoku would be amused!

Ky, perhaps it is your quote on having a focused life under your writing that adds to the humor. It really IS funny!

ha ha ha ha h ah ah ha ha h ah ah ha ha ha ha h ah ah ha ha ha haaaaaaaa

(sorry, I got caught up on the first two pages, it was more interesting to read than the actual subject...which was???)

ky_

03-09-2003, 13:09

The jokes old now, you sort of missed the time when i cared about it.:bandit:

rpnp

03-25-2003, 03:25

........kids

Posiview

03-25-2003, 13:49

I found the exchange between ky_ & Kimpatsu rather amusing.

Misspelling sensei was a bit daft though!

But then again, in an age of txt messaging some people seem to be getting rather lazy.

Respect the person or respect their knowledge?

Andy Sheader

mma_monk

03-25-2003, 16:12

Repect is earned, not given away freely. Be it Sensei, School teacher, Employer, and so on. The only correct answer is to evaluate each individual, and over time, conclude if the deserve your respect or not. Upon meeting new people such as these, one should still remain polite, with an outward appearance of being "respectful". However, cultivating a true sense of respect for another takes time. Even if one appears respectful out of kindness or politeness, respect comes from within, only you know inside when you truly have respect for someone, and as I've stated, that takes time.

ky_

04-18-2003, 13:27

to expand, what shoud u(you for those of you that complain)do if you lose your respect of them?

Jason H

04-18-2003, 19:07

umm.....leave.

ky_

04-19-2003, 06:26

what should we do if he disraspects us?

Jason H

04-19-2003, 06:34

At the risk of soundind redundant....umm....leave.

Rob

07-21-2003, 10:23

At the risk of taking many words to say "What Jason said" (and of repeating something that's come up in old threads)

Respect I think most people would agree is a quality which is earned not given out.

I have the greatest of respect for my Sensei, why would anyone train with someone they didn't respect ? As in instructor I try to treat my students with respect.

When I visit new dojo and especially in Arts or Organisations which are different to mine I assume that the people there have worked hard to get where they are and are therefore deserving of respect also.

Occasionally I come across people who I don't respect in which case I simply don't go back.

Rob

sandifer

07-28-2003, 09:23

I see respect as somethng that eminates outward from within. I feel that the heart of true respect is not something so paltry as to be able to be turned on and off at a matter of personal satisfaction or dissatisfaction of things or people.

If I lose respect for someone then wouldn't that make ME disrespectful?

Respectfulness in my eyes is a virtue. Either I have the guts and grit to house it always no matter what contronts me in this life or it is not true respect.

I see it that the source of respect comes from within me and starts with respect for myself. Other people (or just life in general)
deserve the deepest "kind" of respect I can give just because like me they (it) exists. Period. Nothing else can diminish that import.

So if someone who commits the type of behavior which I do not condone I would bring it up to that person tell them why I felt that way. If the behavior persisted then I would excuse them from my life. But never could respect for them be robbed from me for something as insignificant as not meeting my expectations I placed on their behavior.

The question I often ask myself is am I worthy of true respect?

Sandifer M. Deer

riku

07-28-2003, 09:30

Sandifer-
Very good 1st post! On my behalf, welcome to this forum.

With respect,
Riku Ylönen

ninjandrew

09-15-2003, 16:11

Ky_, phat signature man.

roninja

10-06-2003, 21:35

when someone gains the title of sensei they have thereafter been entrusted with the teachings of a certain style, dojo, and sensei. even if you do not respect the style of martial arts or even it's sect you should respect the sensei for what he is. otherwise you in turn undermining the whole concept of being awarded a such a rank, or at least the privelage to such a rank. also if you do not trust a certain sensei you should not train with them, because you are entrusting them with your martial knowledge in and that a sensei is so to speak enlightened to that particular martial art. also there should be no way of really looking into the persons soul, unless you sit on the sidelines of class, as a prospective student. being a student to a sensei to test his or her ability is disrespectful.

ACRAWFORD

12-28-2003, 16:54

Respect for their position should be automatic and proper.
Respect for them as a person is somthing that only time can produce one way or the other, just the same as them for you.

riku

12-29-2003, 09:56

Welcome Acrawford; hope that you have good time in Budoseek. Lots of info, and good people around here. Please remember that forum rules obliges to everyone sign they posts with real, full name (excluding the situation one has real, full name as nic).

So, are you saying that one should respect the status or accomplishments of sensei?

With respect,
Riku Ylönen

ACRAWFORD

12-29-2003, 13:05

well its just exactly that. To respect the person and the position are ideal. But in order to evaluate them as a person, you would need to train with them or under them howerver you want to see it. Then a relationship could be made and trust and repect for the individual would then arise if so merited

ACRAWFORD

12-29-2003, 13:06

sorry

Andre Crawford

lazancot

01-24-2005, 05:32

In the past I believe that the fact that a person had acheived the sensei status did most certainly deserve respect for thier position. This is because they were proved against their peers, and for the most part were selected to train. In modern times there are so many more people practicing that the quality of practicioner will be diluted. Many exeptional martial artists will be discovered but by the same token a great many will be very poor. So I beleive that not all sensei deserve respect because there has been a general drop in the standards required to achieve the status worldwide(most especially in developed countries) and therefore not all sensei have been trained correctly or with the rigorous and arduous physical and mental processes that prove you have what it takes to be a sensei. But this is only my opinion and what I have experienced.

Erik

02-09-2005, 13:44

Respect is earned. Anyone can gather the trappings of status but you'll only know if someone knows what they're talking about by testing it.

This does not mean that one should be rude to an instructor. But these are coaches, not dieties.

There's way more MA garbage out there than there is good sense (or senseis) and one must learn to discern what's farce and what's good coaching.

If you aren't getting something out of the training, it's probably not worth your time.

If you don't believe that what they are teaching you can use successfully in fighting, then they are not working for you.

If you believe (from experience, hopefully) that what they are teaching is nonsense, then their title of "sensei" is meaningless.

Don't forget there are many goofballs out there who dress themselves up and claim to know how to fight. These guys produce other guys and the cycle perpetuates itself and floods the market with chumps, not quality instructors.

One must discern the difference him/herself.

jakmak52

02-09-2005, 14:38

As a general rule, I would never train with someone I didn't respect. When I lost respect for my former teacher, I stopped training with him! And the proper spelling is s-e-n-s-e-i.
janet dtantirojanarat
www.warriorwoman.org

T-H-A-N-K-S, O-K-A-Y.

jakmak52

02-09-2005, 14:41

I always respect common sense. :D

If your membership is revoked, why are you still posting?

jakmak52

02-09-2005, 14:45

OK. (Rolls up his sleeves and goes to work.)
"In China, there ONCE was a man who liked pictures of dragons.
His deep affection for dragons was brought to the attention of the dragon god, SO one day a real dragon appeared before his window. IT is said that he died of fright."
He was probably a man who spoke big words, but acted differently when facing the real thing.
THIS is like U!
THANT? What does the dictator of Burma have to do with this?
(Please note the grammatical and spelling corrections made to the above anecdote.)
---
If you're over there, I say sorry.
If you're over here, YOU say sorry.
---
Hey, KY Jelly, lighten up and develop a sense of humour.
BTW, which Aberdeen? Scotland, Canada, or New Zealand?

Sounds more like you than KY_...

David Craik

02-09-2005, 16:32

If your membership is revoked, why are you still posting?

LOL..look at the date on that post.

jakmak52

02-09-2005, 17:27

LOL..look at the date on that post.

Early senility David... ;)

Jared Sutton

04-01-2005, 16:08

First I would like to comment on the fact that you two are avoiding the subject and acting like children.

I believe that the title sensei is given away too loosely today, as has master. What kind of change turns an instructor into a master, besides the certificate placed on the dojang wall. Respect should be given to one who has a broader understanding of the martial arts than you. If he dwells too much on stances and not enough on actual fighting, what can he really teach you but posture and flashyness. But if he has no concept of stances, or organization, how will you ever learn skills like muscle balance and control.

It is about the self-mastery one experiences that earns respect.

ninjandrew

04-02-2005, 00:04

should we respect all sensei because of their martial status

No, unless thats the only thing you care about. There are countless variables invlolved when one is deciding whether or not to respect someone. Variables which differ from person to person.

But of course, if martial status is all you care about, that makes things nice and simple. Whether or not thats for better or worse, thats another thing that people will have differing opinions on. Once again depending on countless variables.

I think the topic of respect makes for a ridiculous conversation anyway.

IMO.

Bleed___

04-08-2005, 14:51

maybe its safe to say that you should always show your senei respect, even if you dont really have much for them.

Iron Dove

04-15-2005, 00:43

i respect my teachers yes, but how much respect i have for my teachers ultimately depends on the individual.

Jared Sutton

04-15-2005, 17:07

(quote)First I would like to comment on the fact that you two are avoiding the subject and acting like children.(/quote)

Not jakmak52 and Soulend just to clear that up. I think that was about a conflict between Chris McLean and someone else. They were flashing there belts around. :bow: No disrespect, sirs.

Erik

04-16-2005, 12:09

It seems to me (perhaps incorrectly?) that people here seem to believe that just because someone dresses up with a black belt around their waist and dawns the trappings of a sensei, that they are somehow worthy of respect.

Again, I argue that there is so much fraud out there and so many different levels of quality and good sense that respect must be earned over time. There are many chumps who dress up and put on airs. We must filter through these people to find who is really worthy of our respect. This takes time, frequency of contact, and some experience, which implies that respect is earned, not just handed out to someone who dresses up.

There are also many who are adequate but certainly not worship-worthy. This is a middle ground.

Oniw17

05-13-2005, 18:01

I believe that your sensei, sifu, or master, should be treated just as that, your MASTER. By this I mean that you should treat him/her with the absolute highest level of respect.I you don't, then you should quit your training in the martial arts, as it is useless. Without discipline, greatness can't even be an option, and discipline and repect are twin brothers. If your sensei, as it is in this case, does not deserve a great amount of respect, you SHOULD NOT be training under him/her. I try to be open minded in most cases, but as far as respect toward someone who takes YEARS out of their life to teach YOU, there is no exceptions. If you were in the military, and you failed to call your general "Sir" or disrespected him in any way, you would be SEVERELY punished. This is true also of the school in which I train, if you fail to call our master Sir, or disrespect him in any manner, we get kicked out for 3 months. In my opinion, it should be this way in all dojos/martial arts studios. If it isn't, the respectable sensei, sifu, or master should have NO right whatsoever to be teaching. being taought great skills without great discipline makes you destructive, both to yourself and to others.

-I'm out-Oni

ninjandrew

05-13-2005, 20:28

So many people have stated that respect is earned over time.

How much more respect can you give? Is this to imply that no respect is givin from the beginning?

If I was in psychology or something, I could probably come up with a whole sytem of levels of respect, based on how a person treats others. But since that would take years of research in a field of which I know nothing, Im just going to use the 10 point system. With 10 being the highest level of respect that you would show a person.

I think everyone gives everyone some respect from day one, or else you couldnt make any friends right? Surely you wouldnt get respect from anyone else... This amount of respect varies from person to person, a different number on the scale, for everyone. And of course it also depends on the person their talking (or whatever) to.

Abbax8

05-14-2005, 10:01

Andrew, you are correct. Everyone should be accorded a certain level of respect. The lowest level given to people is what are considered proper manners for a given society. Here in the USA, this is shown by how you address strangers, sir or mame, saying please or thank you, your welcome, etc., maintaining a proper social distance and affording others a degree of privacy. It also depends on the age and relative standing of the parties involved, adult/child, or setting, work/social/home/school/etc.

As persons become familiar with each other, first names will more than likely be used, as in with your neighbors or co-workers.

Respect that is accorded due to a position one holds was in the past a given. However, in the past 2 decades, persons who were once held in high respect, clergy/teacher/coaches, have been affected by the actions of a small number of slime balls whose behavior has tainted the reputation of the entire group..

To that end, minimal respect is due to all, greater respect is earned by the actions of the person to whom the respect is given. Failure to afford the minimum of respect is at the least considered antisocial behavior, cursing in public for example, but can go on a continum up to and including criminal behavior.

Peace

Dennis

ninjandrew

05-15-2005, 09:14

The lowest level given to people is what are considered proper manners for a given society.

A good observation.

Dean F. Wilson

06-05-2005, 13:06

At first, you should respect the title - and then with time you can see if they are worth respect as a person. That said, I believe it's important for everyone to respect everyone else, especially in martial arts, so just because you don't like the instructor, it doesn't give you license to be disrespectful...

Haidong,
Dean.

Erik

06-06-2005, 14:43

There is a neutral ground between respect and disrespect.

I call it formality or courtesy, but that's just my name for it.

ninjandrew

06-06-2005, 21:11

Good name for it.

kendoka

06-17-2005, 02:38

formality or courtesy, are very good names for it.
I believe you should respect everyone until they do something to lose that respect. Now don't get me wrong I am not saying that respect is something gained overnight, but too often a sensei is just someone you pay for a service, as you would a tutor. A true sensei is someone that you don't repay in cash, but through learning what ever it is that he or she is trying to teach you (a good sensei teaches you more than just an art, they be someone that you look up to. A person that you try to live up to, and most important someone that leads by example). If you can find these qualities in a sensei respect will come naturally.

-If you don't show others respect, why would anyone respect you. -me

Gene Williams

06-17-2005, 06:20

There is a neutral ground between respect and disrespect.

I call it formality or courtesy, but that's just my name for it.

Very well put, Erik. That middle ground is what keeps us civilized.

wildwills

06-17-2005, 07:39

Just to put a military spin on the issue of respecting one's sensei...I'd like to quote an old military saying, "You salute the rank, not the man".

I believe that when you first start training under your sensei, your bow and respect is due to respect towards his or her rank/title. As time goes on, your training intensifies and you learn more about your art and your sensei.

You have during that time learned to respect your sensei not just as a teacher, but hopefully as a friend/extended family member and that respect is then given on a more personal level.

Just my spin on it.

G Hendrix

06-17-2005, 16:53

Rank in MA is not exactly something to be taken at face value. Bogus rank. Inflated rank. Rank that some got after taking a flight from their homecountries to the US. Besides, in many cases, rank only represents exposure to the curriculum, and not exactly competency, although there should be a direct correlation there.

Erik

06-17-2005, 16:57

"You salute the rank, not the man".
But in one's heart, he respects the man, not the rank.

nirgle

06-19-2005, 14:00

I believe that when you first start training under your sensei, your bow and respect is due to respect towards his or her rank/title. As time goes on, your training intensifies and you learn more about your art and your sensei. You have during that time learned to respect your sensei not just as a teacher, but hopefully as a friend/extended family member and that respect is then given on a more personal level.
This is my belief exactly. Before starting my training I really had no former model for giving/showing respect to others in my life—it wasn't the way I was raised, it wasn't a relevant issue in the schools I grew up in, the sports I took part in were pretty casual in this respect, etc. When I started training, I figured I would take the initiative to show as much respect to the black belts as possible, and to the instructors in specific. I had no clue exactly what they were capable of and to tell the truth I respected more the belt than the person wearing it (as alluded to in an above message). As time went on I discovered that as far as formal atmosphere was concerned the school I had chosen to begin my training in was close to the extreme end of casual rather than strict. Nonetheless, at the same time I was discovering this I was also discovering just how much my instructors knew; every class they would show their skill and demonstrate their ranks more and more. Thus even though time went on I never allowed myself to get caught up in the informality of the school: during water breaks when everybody crowded through the door I made it a deliberate point to allow the black belts through the door first even though that didn't seem to be a concern on anyone else's mind, etc.

My position is that any martial artist beginning his/her training should err on the side of caution and show the respect the instructors' belts should demand until such time as their conduct while wearing the belt suggested otherwise.

Gene Williams

06-20-2005, 20:28

This is a tough one for most people in today's world. In the military, for starters, you salute the rank not the man. There are many levels to this, but the most basic one is respect for something that is bigger than you and more important than you or your ideas of respectability, i.e. the armed forces of your country. Duty and honor and respect are the glue that holds the Corps, the unit, and the individual together in stress and combat. Another level is that many SOB's are excellent CO's and field officers (and many hard asses are excellent sensei). They will save your life and the lives of others, but they must be obeyed for this to work. Then there is duty...that's, D-U-T-Y...a word you don't hear much any more and which most people don't understand anymore. In a martial art or the military, it is our duty to obey and respect our leader/sensei. Duty comes first, personal opinion last. Now, all that being said, you will learn if a person is incompetent, a fraud, or a criminal and there are customs and protocols in place to take care of that. But, you respect others because you respect yourself. Respecting yourself, you take your duty seriously and honor it. You will know when it is time to make a change. I believe we should err on the side of duty and respect. Our society needs to recover something of a duty ethic instead of this relativistic, bs "ethics of the fitting."

Nin

06-20-2005, 22:03

I would not say to respect the rank, title etc... but most of time people obey the rank...

Lot of people obey their superiors in the army or at work but do not respect him. This two totally different actions. When I respect a Sensei I do not consider him as a friend or whatever but as a wise man, I had a very good Sensei few years ago I considered him more like a grand father rather than a friend.

I respect the man behind the title, lot of people have titles or ranks they do not deserve.

But I do respect everbody's opinion. :)

neon

07-02-2005, 22:37

Aikido_Girl918

08-03-2005, 14:20

Originally posted by ky_
p.s i tipe fast

I think that says it all...

I agree, I may type slow but at least I can spell "type" correctly.
Ky_, if I could give you a little common wisdom, "patience is a virtue"

Peter Rehse

02-08-2006, 03:33

Why would anyone put themselves in a situation where they did not respect their teacher.

Don't respect your teacher go elsewhere.

dojo

02-09-2006, 11:21

I have to kinds of respect: a formal one (I bow in front of my seniors, am polite and SHOW respect) and my deep respect for someone who does deserve it. That's when I am closer to the person and I try my best to interract and work with them

Aikido_Girl918

02-15-2006, 13:29

First, you have to understand the difference in sensei and instructor. An instructor only knows how to perform and teach the techniques. A sensei (which can be translated to mean father/teacher) is not only an instructor, but a...a sort of...mentor. They're not exactly mentors, but they know how to do more than instruct. A sensei knows how to make his/her students not only show respect, but feel and understand true and deep respect for their instructors, themselves, and the dojo.
All people deserve respect to a certain degree, I mean, you wouldn't commit murder, right? This is partially because you don't want to face prison, but also because you have respect for other human beings. All instrucors deserve respect as human beings and for the fact that they know their techniques. But only those who know how to teach techniques AND respect, deserve the amount of respect that is often freely given to anyone with a "sensei" patch on their gi.

and on a side note to dojo: well put, and thanks for giving me something to build off of?

Cliff Hargrave

02-15-2006, 21:00

You are just adding your own romanticized ideas to what you want sensei to mean, or parroting what you have been told. Instructor/Sensei/Teacher are just labels. Neither hold any more importance over the other. It's all about the person, not the title. Everyone deserves courtesy or maybe tolerance, not everyone deserves respect.

Aikido_Girl918

02-18-2006, 19:11

Eliz Seuferling

02-18-2006, 19:57

cliff, i have three instructors. 2 that can teach respect as well as techniques, one that can only teach techniques. I was going by what i know. the junior sensei, she only teaches techniques (and she does a fair job). most of us don't even call her sensei. we just say nichole. when somebody calls her sensei, it's because they have to in order to stay out of trouble. yet she still covets that instructor patch on her gi. if you cannot teach respect, then you cannot expect to receive it. sensei is a title i only use with respect or if forced

I haven't really been following this thread - I just zoned in on these last couple posts. Fanci, twice you mention being "forced" to call someone Sensei and I more or less get the impression that this woman is someone you don't particularly care for. Further, if you are addressing her by her given name, I am guessing she is young.

Don't confuse "liking someone" with "respecting someone." It is difficult when a member of your peer group is singled out and given a position of leadership. News flash - it is difficult for her as well. Follow school protocol and etiquette and address her as she should be addressed. It will be easier on you in the long run (instructors talk amongst themselves!), and it will show the instructors that you are only interested in serious training.

TKDGURL

02-18-2006, 21:05

Respect is respect only if it is freely given. I at one time wholly respected my instructor and now I am not so sure. I will still respect him because of his rank however I can't totally respect him any more because he is not steadfast.

HanDragon

02-19-2006, 00:09

In my own opinion, I give respect to everyone until I, myself, am disrespected. Once a person shows disrespect for me a metting of the minds is in order. If the problem is continued I try to avoid the person at all costs. Life is too short and precious to spend with people who have no respect for others.

Yang Wei Xin

02-22-2006, 11:28

Don't confuse "liking someone" with "respecting someone." It is difficult when a member of your peer group is singled out and given a position of leadership. News flash - it is difficult for her as well. Follow school protocol and etiquette and address her as she should be addressed. It will be easier on you in the long run (instructors talk amongst themselves!), and it will show the instructors that you are only interested in serious training.

too true, too true.

thepanda

02-25-2006, 11:34

I think they do deserve respect because
A-The legitimate ones (senseis that don't run a mcdojo) have trained hard for years to achive their status, so it is courtesey to treat them accordingly.

B-Most work hard to keep the dojo running and don't need people making it harder for them.

C-More often than not they kill you if they wanted to (although i don't think they would or should do that just because someone lacks respect)

of course, i'm talking about the good, legitimate senseis, i think that if they can't run a dojo well(or teach well), then they don't deserve as much respect.

Aikido_Girl918

02-25-2006, 18:14

I haven't really been following this thread - I just zoned in on these last couple posts. Fanci, twice you mention being "forced" to call someone Sensei and I more or less get the impression that this woman is someone you don't particularly care for. Further, if you are addressing her by her given name, I am guessing she is young.

Don't confuse "liking someone" with "respecting someone." It is difficult when a member of your peer group is singled out and given a position of leadership. News flash - it is difficult for her as well. Follow school protocol and etiquette and address her as she should be addressed. It will be easier on you in the long run (instructors talk amongst themselves!), and it will show the instructors that you are only interested in serious training.

Actually, me and Nichole get along great, except when she is teaching. Yes, she is young. 15 to be exact. I like her, but I do not respect her as a sensei. I think she knows her techniques, but that is just about all she knows. She loves the power she has over the kids from her instructor patch, but I am only 4th kyu in the kids (FYI white belt is 11th to the kids in our school), and when I am teaching as an assistant, the kids obey me as well as well as they obey her. They have to obey her, but they actually respect me. She does not seem to understand that if she would try a little harder to earn the students' respect, they would obey her a lot better. I had a sensei before who was within a few years of my age who I had a lot of respect for. It isn't age for me, it's what you can do, how you treat your students, how well you teach your techniques, and sometimes even how bossy you are. If you teach respect and respect your students, then you deserve respect. If you get bossy and act like a know-it-all, then...well, you won't get any respect from me.

Musubi Dojo

02-04-2007, 18:01

Actually, me and Nichole get along great, except when she is teaching. Yes, she is young. 15 to be exact. I like her, but I do not respect her as a sensei. I think she knows her techniques, but that is just about all she knows. She loves the power she has over the kids from her instructor patch, but I am only 4th kyu in the kids (FYI white belt is 11th to the kids in our school), and when I am teaching as an assistant, the kids obey me as well as well as they obey her. They have to obey her, but they actually respect me. She does not seem to understand that if she would try a little harder to earn the students' respect, they would obey her a lot better. I had a sensei before who was within a few years of my age who I had a lot of respect for. It isn't age for me, it's what you can do, how you treat your students, how well you teach your techniques, and sometimes even how bossy you are. If you teach respect and respect your students, then you deserve respect. If you get bossy and act like a know-it-all, then...well, you won't get any respect from me.

Eliz makes some excellent points

Think of it this way Fanci,

You are in your Sensei's house and are expected to play by his or her rules. Your Sensei has set the order and rank. Not following it is disrespectful to the person in question as well as your head instructor. If you have a problem you should take it toyour sensei, but I wouldn't expect a warm reception.

My advice is to concentrate on your own training and not worry about who respects who.

That being said I'm not even going to get started on my opinion of 15 year old instructors...

Cheers
c

Brian Dugger

02-04-2007, 19:56

. . . but also because you have respect for other human beings. . .

Just stopping at this clause right here is all that is important, imho. I don't think anyone would go wrong with this regardless of status or hierarchy.:bow:

Btw, no vote on this for me.

JiuJitsuRabbit

02-23-2007, 07:45

I respect my "sensei" as much as I do any other teacher. It is directly related to thier teaching ability and professionalism.

Angharad

02-23-2007, 09:38

I vote for looking inside ones sensei. there are those that would argue that a student doesn't have the right to scrutinise their sensei, but I feel that if you are going to be committing yourself to him/her, then this is vital. There are so many McDojo's out there that one has to be very careful when choosing a sensei under whom to study.

JiuJitsuRabbit

02-23-2007, 11:49

I don't like the word sensei unless I am training under someone whos native language is japanese.

I call all my teachers instructers and see no reason to give them any mystical magic properties. They are only human.

Musubi Dojo

02-23-2007, 12:47

I don't like the word sensei unless I am training under someone who’s native language is Japanese.

This makes sense; there are different words of instructor or teacher in every culture. My understanding is that sensei only takes on some sort of mystical connation in North America. In Japan math instructors are sensei as well.

I call all my teachers instructors and see no reason to give them any mystical magic properties. They are only human.

I couldn't agree with you more, respect is one thing, ladling out the kool-aid another.

I'm not sure if you meant to tie your statement about "sensei" to the "mystical properties" statement because I didn't get the correlation.

In general;

If you don't respect your instructor then why would you train with him/her?
I think there's a basic respect for human life, members of society, friends and acquaintances (which is where I put an MA instructor) and family.

There's also a big difference between the respect you might hold for a person and the way you interact with them. I'm just talking about basic manners here. ;)

I work with some people that I find loathsome but it's necessary (for now) to pay the mortgage, so I treat them in a professional, respectful manner. (While biting my tongue) Even if I didn't have to work with them I wouldn't go out of my way to insult them.

Cheers
c

JiuJitsuRabbit

02-23-2007, 13:10

I'm not sure if you meant to tie your statement about "sensei" to the "mystical properties" statement because I didn't get the correlation.

I put the use of sensei, by Americans in judo pajamas in the same box as belt systems and soke organizations. Now this is not always true, but I have found most of the time the discussion on sensei this or sensei that is usually tied to someone overvaluing their "sensei" based on some perceived mysticism in the martial art or by that person.

A personal example would be Jigoro Kano. While I respect his foundation of Judo and his personal accomplishments relating to Judo, I do not feel any need to value him anymore than any other historical figure then say George Washington.

A more modern example would be Helio Gracie. I respect him as the founder of BJJ, but if I met him personally I would simply call him by whatever title protocol required. Meaning on the mat he is Grandmaster Helio and off the mat he is just some old guy. I would instantly value his views on the meaning of life or otherwise.

I value people based on my personal experiance with them, not based on titles or other things.

Musubi Dojo

02-23-2007, 17:34

I put the use of sensei, by Americans in judo pajamas in the same box as belt systems and soke organizations.

That seems like serious overkill to me. Most MA's have some sort of structure and lumping everyone who's called sensei, wear's a dogi, or has belt system in with a bunch of outright frauds is inaccurate. (if that's what you are doing :wink2: )

I'm not sure where you are getting the sensei = mystic powers thing from. I've seen this attitude but only in immature/new martial artists or people who are really looking to join a cult. The world is full of nutbars and some of them cling to MA's for a sense of identity. They aren't the majority. (yet...I hope)

If it's the "public" perception is of an invincible sensei then I think that's marketing gone bad. People who actually study MA's know better.(or should)

There are all kinds of excellent judo instructors, most teaching in their spare time for the love of the art without any godhood delusions, same with other arts. :D

Some of the Chinese arts I'ved studied had no rank system what-so-ever and I really didn't see a big difference in functionality or respect.

Back to respect: Art you talking about not being in awe of a person's reputation? If so I'd agree to a point. Making your judgements is best, but knowing whether or not you are qualifed to make those judgements is key.(being honest with yourself) Being polite is just common sense.

I've always found being refered to as "sensei" off the mat really weird. A lot of my students called me Chris on the mat and didn't care either way.

Nothing wrong with healthy skeptacism IMO but I think your first statement is painting with a very wide brush.

Cheers
c

Brian Dugger

02-23-2007, 18:41

. . . I couldn't agree with you more, respect is one thing, ladling out the kool-aid another. . .

Cheers
c

This is going to have me laughing forever.

Anyway, I feel the same way about appliques. I do understand the purpose of titles, but sometimes I feel people's sense of proprieties regarding titles and position are somewhat distorted. When people insist on being called by a title or overemphasize position, I can't help but start grinning to the point of laughing which is the opposite end and equally disrespectful. It's like watching old "Our Gang"/"Little Rascal" and "Three Stooges" episodes and the comedic way the characters take themselves so seriously.:laugh:

Musubi Dojo

02-23-2007, 20:54

When people insist on being called by a title or overemphasize position, I can't help but start grinning to the point of laughing which is the opposite end and equally disrespectful. It's like watching old "Our Gang"/"Little Rascal" and "Three Stooges" episodes and the comedic way the characters take themselves so seriously.:laugh:

Bingo!! Exactly what I was trying to covey. Thank you sir.

You prefer grape or orange? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Koshu

02-24-2007, 03:54

Bingo!! Exactly what I was trying to covey. Thank you sir.

You prefer grape or orange? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Barkeep! One grape shot -- shaken, not stirred.

Brian Dugger

02-26-2007, 09:28

Barkeep! One grape shot -- shaken, not stirred.
Well, is the grape shot leaded or unleaded and with what are we chasing? Would unfurling the banner be appropriate on this occasion? If we're talking about refreshment, I'd rather have some lime.:D:

Mark Barlow

02-26-2007, 11:17

Why would you train with an instructor you don't respect? If they're not trustworthy off the mat, don't interact with them off the mat. If they know what they're doing as far as training goes and it's what you want, respect them for their knowledge and experience.

I don't expect or want students to ask me for advice on family/work/finances/religion/etc... I have enough trouble muddling through my own existence without adding the burden of being responsible for someone else's life choices. On the other hand, if you're in my class, I expect to be treated with respect. I don't have time or the inclination to try to "convert" anyone into trusting me.

Taking a quick skim of this thread, it seems most of the "earn my respect" folks are younger. This also tends to be the same group that is shocked when others aren't impressed with their 4 or 5 years of training in a hodge-podge of styles and a complete lack of loyalty to any one style, school or instructor. If you want to be respected, be respectful.

Jeff C.

02-26-2007, 16:17

So true Mark; that philosophy should carry over to the workplace with the supervisor/subordinate relationship, and also into the military as well.

Many people who are poor leaders try to bully from behind their rank; it makes no difference if it is a black belt or NCO chevrons. But there IS a difference: an NCO has been trained as a leader and has put that training into practice. A black belt may only be a higher-ranked student with no leadership training/experience and thus not necessarily a "sensei." Those people are more appropriate called something other than "sensei."

A person running a class will presumably have some leadership skill before being allowed to run a class on their own. If not, then the person over them who put them in charge without any leadership training and mentoring has not done HIS/HER job. Putting a kid or adult in charge of a class when they do not have the skillset or disposition to lead is not doing them any favors at all; it is bad for that person AND the students.

Jeff Cook