Bad habit or good sense?

[Leopard]

If someone is aiming for my head I always jerk it back and out of the way, just like boxers do. It is really a reflex, a natural self preservation move. It keeps your head from getting knocked around too hard. I have noticed that Martial Arts people don't to that. I have heard some say they "respect the strike", and not moving shows courage.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[TonyU]

If someone is aiming for my head I always jerk it back and out of the way, just like boxers do. It is really a reflex, a natural self preservation move. It keeps your head from getting knocked around too hard. I have noticed that Martial Arts people don't to that. I have heard some say they "respect the strike", and not moving shows courage.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?
That's a first for me. I always move my head. I mean I always try to move my head. Have not always been successful.

[Rasputin]

I move my head, along with as much of my body as is necessary to get out of the way, but I try to maintain eye contact--no flinching.

[Koshu]

. . . I have heard some say they "respect the strike", and not moving shows courage. . . .


Um, wouldn't respecting the strike entail moving the target of the strike as far away from the strike as possible?

Yes, move your head -- as well as your body -- lest this befall you:

http://www.taptu.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/rockemsockem_robots_small.jpg

[jjaje]

Yes, move the head. Although, if you are, as you say, jerking it backwards, this can have its own problems (I don't picture what boxers do as jerking it back). Because you can only jerk it back so far, and if the attacker keeps pressing forward, you may have problems. Many people lean backwards too, which can cause problems with aggressive attackers.

Normally we try to move it sideways, or if going back, don't tilt it back, but rather shift weight onto your back leg, and let your head move back naturally, then you are in a position to advance.

[sooner_sadiq]

If someone is aiming for my head I always jerk it back and out of the way, just like boxers do. It is really a reflex, a natural self preservation move. It keeps your head from getting knocked around too hard. I have noticed that Martial Arts people don't to that. I have heard some say they "respect the strike", and not moving shows courage.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

It depends really? Are you talking about during a sparring session or when someone is demonstrating/performing a technique? Two different scenarios that require two different reactions.

Side note i would move head side-to-side rather than backwards.

[Leopard]

It depends really? Are you talking about during a sparring session or when someone is demonstrating/performing a technique? Two different scenarios that require two different reactions.

I am talking about sparring. Should have made that clear.


I like the visual Koshu! I know what you mean about try Tony! The advise to move my head side to side is excellent! Thanks. Also the idea of moving the body with the head I hadn't thought of that yet.

I was just moving my head back and slighty to the side at once. It seems most of the people I am currently sparring with don't think "move the strike past your target". Their strikes mostly go to a certain point and stop. (I hope this makes sense) But now I see the flaw in it if someone moves all the way through with thier strike. "They'll knock my block off!" :laugh:

[jjaje]

Or if they are aggressive and keep stepping forward as they strike. You can only lean back so far before they knock you on your bottom.

[Leopard]

Or if they are aggressive and keep stepping forward as they strike. You can only lean back so far before they knock you on your bottom.


You make a very good point and remind me of a few things I had forgotten. There are a couple of really good kickers in the group. So when someone starts moving their lower body, then I am stepping to the other side. I usually move in circles and my opponent will naturally follow. I remember now a lesson I learned a long ago. Moving in lines gets you backed into a corner. That also explains why I instinctively move in circles today. I am guessing that there are some who haven't figured that out though and I am going to try the above mentioned strategy. I figure it will work a couple of times. :bow:

[Erik]

Forgive me if I'm butting in - kenpo (and standup striking in general) is certainly not my specialty but I'm really trying to understand the question here.

To me it seems plain as day to move the head (and I have a permanently bent nose from not moving my head enough) to avoid getting hit. This, coupled with blocks and absorbing hits somewhere that hurts less than my face/head. Am I missing something? Or is there something specific to kenpo I'm not realizing?

As for bobbing and weaving and dodging, just to throw this idea out there, I try to move either in on the guy or try to flank him, usually coming around to my left and his right in an effort to lock my arms around him and execute a takedown. If I'm moving inside as opposed to flanking him there are some holds I've found useful such as right arm around the neck and left under the armpit, then grip and I have control for whatever else I want to do.

Is this approach valid in kenpo? Or am I derailing your thread (sorry!)?

[Leopard]

To me it seems plain as day to move the head (and I have a permanently bent nose from not moving my head enough) to avoid getting hit. This, coupled with blocks and absorbing hits somewhere that hurts less than my face/head. Am I missing something? Or is there something specific to kenpo I'm not realizing?



This is my theory too. If your hands aren't alreay making the block at a certain point, get your head out of the way! But I see people not doing this. Now, I am a low belt rank, but I watched some black belts and they didn't do it either. Of course they are faster with thier hands, and hardly any hand strike got to the head. But I was asking a couple of my friends why they don't do it, and they gave me the whole "macho lecture".



As for bobbing and weaving and dodging, just to throw this idea out there, I try to move either in on the guy or try to flank him, usually coming around to my left and his right in an effort to lock my arms around him and execute a takedown. If I'm moving inside as opposed to flanking him there are some holds I've found useful such as right arm around the neck and left under the armpit, then grip and I have control for whatever else I want to do.

Is this approach valid in kenpo? Or am I derailing your thread (sorry!)?



Actually what you describe sounds like JuJitsu/wrestling moves. There are "takedowns" in Kempo, but not exactly like that. It would be more common to sweep someone's leg out from under them, or do a leverage move to the arm to "convince" them to go down on thier own. Then when they are down, you would stand over them delivering blow after blow quickly before they even have a chance to think how to get out of it. This is the theory, but as I said I haven't seen it at tournament, even with the highter levels belts. They seem to stand there like the "rockem, sokem robots" and beat each other! lol


I don't see this as derailing the thread myself, Because now you have learned something about Kempo. Also, I am willing to listen to any advice I can get right now. :D

[Erik]

I don't see this as derailing the thread myself, Because now you have learned something about Kempo. Thanks! :D

[JWhiteSensei]

I "respect the strike" by getting the hell out of the way of it. The simple fact is; you're going to fight like you practice. If you get into a real altercation you need to be able to avoid the strike. In my style it's called " kara uki" or empty block. nothing there to hit.

[David Craik]

I try to block, deflect, or otherwise intercept the strike while counter-striking, if possible. It is more important to negate the strike than to 'respect' it. If it doesn't hit you, then you've done good. You get a good lick in, the punches will no longer be there for you to 'respect' or worry about how to avoid them.

It is good to remember that real scenarios may not play out like this however. Most real-life attackers are not formally trained and may throw a flurry of wild punches very quickly and from odd angles - not the measured, calculated strikes of a boxer or karateka. It may not be possible or advisable to bob your head or body around them indefinately. It may be better to simply aggressively advance to deliver decisive blow(s), even if you wind up taking one of them to the side of the skull. The goal is to terminate the threat.

It all depends on a lot of different variables, no strategy is applicable to every situation.

[TonyU]

I try to block, deflect, or otherwise intercept the strike while counter-striking, if possible. It is more important to negate the strike than to 'respect' it. If it doesn't hit you, then you've done good. You get a good lick in, the punches will no longer be there for you to 'respect' or worry about how to avoid them.

It is good to remember that real scenarios may not play out like this however. Most real-life attackers are not formally trained and may throw a flurry of wild punches very quickly and from odd angles - not the measured, calculated strikes of a boxer or karateka. It may not be possible or advisable to bob your head or body around them indefinately. It may be better to simply aggressively advance to deliver decisive blow(s), even if you wind up taking one of them to the side of the skull. The goal is to terminate the threat.

It all depends on a lot of different variables, no strategy is applicable to every situation.
As usual, a very good post with some sensible advise.

[jjaje]

Erik,

Great question, and you are not butting in :) I don't know of any Kenpo styles that encourage you to get hit in the head. The one I'm familiar with practice a lot like David mentioned, moving the head along with the body. Using foot work, many Kenpo styles move at angle that move the body a bit, and the head goes with it.

Sometimes we emphasize, "in theory", that it is the moving the head out of the way that keeps you from getting hit, adding a block, parry, deflection or something else is simply a safety feature, just in case, and transitions you into some technique. From there, some versions of Kenpo will do grabs, takedowns, joint locks, or strikes, while other versions of Kenpo stick with strikes without the other stuff.

As I've stated, we don't like to lean back, or jerk back, it's hard to move from there, and too easy for an aggressive person to keep pressing forward, and eventually you get to the point you can't lean back any further.

If the instructors are not really protecting their heads, because they are not worried about getting hit, this can lead to bad habits, should they go against someone with good skill and speed. I teach a kids class as well as an adult class. When sparring kids, I usually go slower, more deliberate and intentionally leave openings for them to recognize and take advantage of. Down side is I have to remember to "turn it up" when going against adults, else they clean my clock (and have).

As usual, I concur with Tony about Dave C's points, very good.

[jjaje]

It depends really? Are you talking about during a sparring session or when someone is demonstrating/performing a technique? Two different scenarios that require two different reactions.

Side note i would move head side-to-side rather than backwards.

Often a sparring class seems kind of like a kickboxing match, however, we do encourage people to try and incorporate their Kenpo techniques during a sparring class. It's the best way to practice the footwork and timing. It's always fun when someone says after a sparring class, "I did the move from xxx and was able to get inside and __________ him."

[Leopard]

I "respect the strike" by getting the hell out of the way of it. The simple fact is; you're going to fight like you practice. If you get into a real altercation you need to be able to avoid the strike. In my style it's called " kara uki" or empty block. nothing there to hit.


Yes, this was my idea, don't give anyone anything to hit IF you can. It seems like common sense. I think most here are agreeing with me. I am surprised to find there is actually a name and concept for it.



It is good to remember that real scenarios may not play out like this however. Most real-life attackers are not formally trained and may throw a flurry of wild punches very quickly and from odd angles - not the measured, calculated strikes of a boxer or karateka. It may not be possible or advisable to bob your head or body around them indefinately. It may be better to simply aggressively advance to deliver decisive blow(s), even if you wind up taking one of them to the side of the skull. The goal is to terminate the threat.


Yes, I agree that real life scenarios are completely different. I would not think of standing around trading blows on the street. If confronted with a real life situation that I am unable to otherwise get myself out of, it's time to employ the art of JuJu Ghetto. :D:

[DragonMind]

I would also bring into play the issue of timing. A key factor in getting out of the way is to not be there in the first place. I've seen many many sparring sessions that were entirely late reactionary, i.e. the head/body movement started once the technique had already begun and the technique recognized. Better timing is to recognize the predecessor movements and act at that point in the cycle. Same OODA loop, just acting on different triggers to change the timing of your response.

[Abbax8]

I will duck or bob or weave but prefer to block, side step and enter in where I can grab, break and throw.

Dennis

[Jeff C.]

I have been known to try to hit the other guy's hands as hard as I can with my face, to damage his hands. It's a new technique I pioneered, called the "facebutt." It doesn't work very well for some reason. My face gets so swollen it usually looks like a butt after trying the technique.

Just kidding, folks. Move your head, don't let pride make your head a target.

Jeff Cook

[Leopard]

You make a good point Dragon's Mind. One day I will posses such timing...till then I will DUCK! lol

I like your plan Abbox8. when I am quicker I will be doing that. :laugh:

Mr. C! What a plan! You da mayn! :D: I have heard some things that make about that much sense....and people were 4 real! :eek:

[Jeff C.]

Morgan, I'm glad you respond to my dry humor well - and understand that I care and am serious at the same time! :wink2:

Jeff Cook

[Erik]

My face gets so swollen it usually looks like a butt after trying the technique.It doesn't already...? :laugh:

[DragonMind]

I have been known to try to hit the other guy's hands as hard as I can with my face, to damage his hands. It's a new technique I pioneered, called the "facebutt." It doesn't work very well for some reason. My face gets so swollen it usually looks like a butt after trying the technique.
I thought that was you in that movie Kung Pow! I love your line "I am bleeding, therefore I am the victor!"

[Jeff C.]

Alright, you two bass turds! LOL! I HAVE been missing your insults!

Jeff Cook

[sideslasher9]

Leaning or jerking back from above nipple line punches can put one in a dangerous or bad position, especially with aggressive or pressing fighters. Parrying!, ducking from the knees, slipping and moving in closing spirals are always good methods to try to implement against pressing fighters and aggressive, linear-striking, headhunting bastards. :laugh:

[Leopard]

I have thought about that too. Ducking seems to work good for me, also as you point out, it gives me a chance to reposition. And now that I think of it, linear thinkers don't seem to like circles much. :up: Nor zig-zags or any other shapes.

[JWhiteSensei]

Tenshin Happo- 8 Directional Movements created by Mabuni work well for me.

[Mekugi]

My two bits:

The motor reflex of "jerking" the head back is natural. However, if an opponent becomes aware of that tick (like the linear-line of attack mentioned above), it can be used against you, especially when followed by a lateral-attack; a feign to the head to get you into position for something else that you will be running into.

Being unpredictable is a good thing, so realizing a "tick" like that and how it can be turned against you might be worth exploring and in turn you can use it against an opponent. This goes for anything- especially in a situation were melee lasts unnaturally long (sparring and randori).

So what I am saying here is that a skull-puncher is predictable, they will find a way to cave your head in. However, using that predictability just as your "jerk" back can trick them into a situation where the opponent is off balance, extended and open for a rebuttal attack.

Anyway, it's probably been said here already; just adding my words to it.