Response to questions in regarding aikido, hakko-ryu and internal training [Archive]

Ellis Amdur

06-18-2010, 14:42

Hi Mert -

A few questions:
How do you define "very short range"?
For the purposes of possible further discussion on my part (though I'm happy to discuss "aiki" and "ki" in general since they're formal, codified elements of the arts in question), do you think that Hakkoryu -- with the notable variable that it incorporates shiatsu, and the debatable importance of why Ryuho Okuyama stayed away from the "aiki" label in naming the art (discussed elsewhere) -- is in-scope for your conclusions?
Did you ultimately come to embrace the notion that aikidoka would be better off starting their training more rough-hewn along the lines of what you and others have observed regarding hapkido? (When I first read Rob Gassin's take on this, it was logical to me: a la starting with an axe or saw to rough-shape a piece of wood, then gradually transitioning to the point you're using fine-grit sandpaper.)
To which book were you referring?

1. Touching. This includes a punch with no wind-up, with your hand already on the person, as well as what the best grapplers can do. Although it encompasses a lot of different types of skills and more b.s. than one can pile, it generally goes by the name of internal skills. I've experienced it at the hands of some people of amazing power - and the universal truism is that it requires 10,000's of hours of solo training. As Hung I-hsiang said to me, "if you want to get powerful for fighting in six months, go to Thailand. If you want to devote at least ten years, and maybe achieve something superior, while retaining your health, study with me." it's all about the mileage.
2. Hakko-ryu? Caveat - I've worked, 30+ years ago with a Hakko-ryu 4th dan in Tokyo. That's the limits of my hands-on experience. That said, I honestly, based on what I've experienced with that man, what I've observed on film with Okuyama, and what I know of his limited history of studying Daito-ryu with a man who was not regarded as one of the top-guns, that Okuyama was doing something different: a combination of redirection of force (like modern aikido) with an emphasize on harsher joint-locks and pressure points. His descriptions of "ki" sound more like the "energy" model - using mental energy, you "direct" ki into people. That bio-energy model is plausible to me, to some degree, but I think it's something very different from the mainline skills. In short, I think Hakko-ryu is a pressure-point focused jujutsu with a strong ideology/sub-set of healing practices. Good stuff, but not the same as what I was referring
3. Re aikido and training? From one perspective, I think aikido is wonderful - doing something (that I do not want to do, fwiw), that could be called "collusion for social enlightenment." Might make you a somewhat tougher, stronger fighter in the bargain, but mostly, it's a physical metaphor for how people might best get along - to do this aikido, you work together to make it happen. From another perspective (Ueshiba Morihei's), I think aikido lost it's way - not only in the elimination of the neo-Shinto mysticism, but also technically. Ueshiba's aikido was, at it's core, similar to high-level xingyi. In Ueshiba's aikido - or Takeda Sokaku's Daito-ryu, you didn't have to work together. No "aiki-accomodation syndrome," where the throw needs a willing uke. Anyway, this leads to question #4
4. Hidden in Plain Sight (http://www.edgework.info/buy-books-on-martial-arts.html)

Best
Ellis Amdur

Koshu

07-02-2010, 13:49

Hi Ellis --- Sorry for the delay. I realized after your last post that I’d have to revisit in detail many of the online discussions about aiki, check my training notes, chat with my teacher, among others, prior to responding. I also ordered Hidden in Plain Sight to get up to speed.

No one I've spoken with has looked at the online discussions and concluded, with a leap of faith, that the self-proclaimed IS/IT resources being fawned over and pilloried (less and less of the latter over time) have something they don't -- or gone filled with skepticism, but in good faith, to determine first hand if "aiki" = what they're "already doing."

You and others with much more invested and achieved in your respective martial arts journeys than me have gone to check out what all the hub-bub's about. I can take a hint, especially since no one's asking folks to change styles, allegiances -- just to raise the bar of expectations for themselves and their students (will send you a PM after posting this reply).

A few questions:

How do you define "very short range . . ." (. . . regarding the range of engagement for utilizing aiki?)

1. Touching. This includes a punch with no wind-up, with your hand already on the person, as well as what the best grapplers can do. Although it encompasses a lot of different types of skills and more b.s. than one can pile, it generally goes by the name of internal skills. I've experienced it at the hands of some people of amazing power - and the universal truism is that it requires 10,000's of hours of solo training. As Hung I-hsiang said to me, "if you want to get powerful for fighting in six months, go to Thailand. If you want to devote at least ten years, and maybe achieve something superior, while retaining your health, study with me." it's all about the mileage.
I went ahead and ordered your book, so I look forward to reading up on your research and experiences regarding high-level internal skills. The Hakkoryu solo exercises to which I've been introduced are not related to what’s described online regarding cultivation of aiki body skills. (To be continued below.)

Wouldn’t “touching” be literal as well as metaphorical (the guys descended from Kodo Horikawa, in particular, like to “touch” uke to jam and throw them from a distance)?

. . . do you think that Hakkoryu -- with the notable variable that it incorporates shiatsu, and the debatable importance of why Ryuho Okuyama stayed away from the "aiki" label in naming the art (discussed elsewhere (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2612)) -- is in-scope for your conclusions?

2. Hakko-ryu? Caveat - I've worked, 30+ years ago with a Hakko-ryu 4th dan in Tokyo. That's the limits of my hands-on experience. That said, I honestly, based on what I've experienced with that man, what I've observed on film with Okuyama, and what I know of his limited history of studying Daito-ryu with a man who was not regarded as one of the top-guns, that Okuyama was doing something different: a combination of redirection of force (like modern aikido) with an emphasize on harsher joint-locks and pressure points. His descriptions of "ki" sound more like the "energy" model - using mental energy, you "direct" ki into people. That bio-energy model is plausible to me, to some degree, but I think it's something very different from the mainline skills. In short, I think Hakko-ryu is a pressure-point focused jujutsu with a strong ideology/sub-set of healing practices. Good stuff, but not the same as what I was referring
First, my caveat in return: I’m a shodan with a little less than a decade of experience, so I’m quite a ways from being able to adequately address this as well (though outwardly, Hakkoryu remains predominantly rooted in jujutsu through at least yondan, so your observations make sense).

That said, I know that not everything I’ve felt and observed in training is purely mechanical jujutsu. I agree that Hakkoryu’s flavor of ki utilization is different from that of Daito-ryu (or aiki in general if it is synonymous with the high-level internal skills to which you referred). Knowledge of and the ability to affect the uke via meridians and pressure points, and in turn affect small portions or large portions of the body or the body as a whole, is central to such training in Hakkoryu, whereas I haven’t read about this being a prerequisite for developing Daito-ryu aiki: aiki and ki used traditionally for healing (conversely used to harm someone in the jujutsu) are apparently distinct.

However, at least within my lineage, there is an expectation that over time students will develop qualities in their kamae that produce effects on the uke similar to what’s described in write-ups about aiki. Was Sokaku Takeda more, or less, open about imparting such knowledge at the end of his life (as a juxtaposition to what apparently happened in aikido), when Okuyama reportedly received training from him? Maybe Okuyama received aiki knowledge via Daito-ryu or arrived at it, or something like it, later. No need for responses to this one: it's on me to spend at least another couple decades trying to come up with a more informed opinion.

Did you ultimately come to embrace the notion that aikidoka would be better off starting their training more rough-hewn along the lines of what you and others have observed regarding hapkido? . . .

3. Re aikido and training? From one perspective, I think aikido is wonderful - doing something (that I do not want to do, fwiw), that could be called "collusion for social enlightenment." Might make you a somewhat tougher, stronger fighter in the bargain, but mostly, it's a physical metaphor for how people might best get along - to do this aikido, you work together to make it happen. From another perspective (Ueshiba Morihei's), I think aikido lost it's way - not only in the elimination of the neo-Shinto mysticism, but also technically. Ueshiba's aikido was, at it's core, similar to high-level xingyi. In Ueshiba's aikido - or Takeda Sokaku's Daito-ryu, you didn't have to work together. No "aiki-accomodation syndrome," where the throw needs a willing uke. . . .
Well, that makes sense to me, but it's not just lost on aikido people.

Would you say that Iwama or Shodokan folks, in general, because resistive training is utilized in those styles, have an advantage in finding aiki within the context of aikido training relative to other aikido branches? If you feel that this is not the case, then which of the branches, if any, have retained even vestiges of methods of training conducive to specifically developing aiki, vs. well-honed blending?

. . . Anyway, this leads to question #4 . . .

To which book were you referring . . .(. . . regarding Ellis’ book on this topic)

4. Hidden in Plain Sight (http://www.edgework.info/buy-books-on-martial-arts.html)

Based on the reviews and comments I've read, this sounds like it has worthwhile information beyond aikido: applicable to Daito-ryu, the other arts in Daito-ryu's lineage, and beyond. Got any of them signed numbered copies left?? :up:

Ellis Amdur

07-02-2010, 14:21

Mert -

Wouldn’t “touching” be literal as well as metaphorical (the guys descended from Kodo Horikawa, in particular, like to “touch” uke to jam and throw them from a distance)?
To me, touching is always literal. Yes, it is possible to psychologically disrupt someone - particularly when the other person is either intimidated, far lesser skilled, or a good disciple. In the world we're talking about, I've coined a phrase, "aiki accomodation syndrome" - another name for being a dive-bunny. There are people in the Kodo Horikawa line that are very powerful - but the b.s. level is also really high. People move like they expect to BE moved.

Knowledge of and the ability to affect the uke via meridians and pressure points, and in turn affect small portions or large portions of the body or the body as a whole, is central to such training in Hakkoryu, whereas I haven’t read about this being a prerequisite for developing Daito-ryu aiki: aiki and ki used traditionally for healing (conversely used to harm someone in the jujutsu) are apparently distinct. I would agree that p.p. and meridians are of lesser concern to Daito-ryu much less aikido, and healing is not, to my knowledge, even a concern. I do think that aiki (to the reader: I mean the ability to use a coordinated body to exert enormous power without windup or tension - NOT some kind of mystic energy) would be very effective in use against a pressure point. In other words, if I can hit a vulnerable place on the neck, for example, with twice the power and 1/4 the range, that's good.

Was Sokaku Takeda more, or less, open about imparting such knowledge at the end of his life (as a juxtaposition to what apparently happened in aikido), when Okuyama reportedly received training from him? Maybe Okuyama received aiki knowledge via Daito-ryu or arrived at it, or something like it, later. Takeda was NOT open about teaching at any time - his attitude was you had to steal it from him. Furthermore, it is my understanding that Okuyama studied with a man named Matsuda, who was, in DR circles, considered journeyman level, rather than pinnacle.

Would you say that Iwama or Shodokan folks, in general, because resistive training is utilized in those styles, have an advantage in finding aiki within the context of aikido training relative to other aikido branches? If you feel that this is not the case, then which of the branches, if any, have retained even vestiges of methods of training conducive to specifically developing aiki, vs. well-honed blending?
That's a tough one. Tomiki and Saito had such skills - I've heard first person experiences. Gozo Shioda, the same. For different reasons in each case, however, it does not seem that any of them taught their followers, including in the latter two cases, their own sons.

Sorry re signed and numbered - already sent your book out. I do have about 20 "numbers" left. If you want to send it back (or buy another copy :t2: - - -be happy to.
Best
Ellis Amdur

Koshu

07-02-2010, 14:41

Thanks Ellis.

Yeah, from what's online, Matsuda did not receive menkyo-kaiden (nor did Okuyama) in Daito-ryu, which is telling since he was a student during the latter portion of Takeda's life, when Takeda was reportedly willing to issue those.

Hah, I can think of a few folks for whom HiPS may make a nice birthday or holiday gift. :cool:

Where do you see the renaissance in interest that started a few years ago regarding this subject, as you mentioned in Aikido Journal, taking arts as a whole (vs. individuals)?

You've expressed in the past a progressive approach to Araki-ryu to keep it relevant and practical. To what degree were internal skills dormant/lost in this art, vs. not being historically a component and now you presented with an opportunity to explore the art in a profound new way?

Ellis Amdur

07-02-2010, 15:47

The Renaissance of Interest, (TM) is going to be some interest, few do anything with it. Refining the body skills is a major commitment. Hugely major commitment of many hours a day. It's fascinating stuff BUT - one year at a BJJ school with a little muay thai will make you a fighter a LOT faster. This is graduate level stuff, so to speak, for those who want to put in an insane level of commitment. With not a major lot of returns for a long time. So I certainly wouldn't recommend abandoning any art one is training - unless the art is not very good to begin with.
I do not know if Araki-ryu once had these type of skills. On one level, I doubt it - because it was a "grunt-level" training - for ordinary soldiers who would be in the muck doing the actual fighting. On the other hand, as I train in this new type material, it keeps changing my Araki-ryu without changing the outer form in the least. At my relatively advanced age, I'm, all of a sudden, getting more powerful and faster in application of technique, with far less movement and no wind-up.
And, I want to be very clear, on a scale of one to ten in this area of internal skills, I'm currently rating myself as a 1.347. Just scratching the surface.
Best
Ellis Amdur

Koshu

07-03-2010, 01:30

The Renaissance of Interest, (TM) is going to be some interest, few do anything with it. Refining the body skills is a major commitment. Hugely major commitment of many hours a day. . . .
Well, I like your preposition better than mine: “ROI” it is then, since that serves as a mnemonic for the sweat equity required.

But isn't this just history repeating itself? We all know how sustained the original Takeda-Ueshiba renaissance (maybe more appropriately, enlightenment from a western persective) regarding this stuff turned out to be. If this ever reaches mass curiosity in this era (say James Randi cries “uncle” or something) hucksters will find a way to market McAiki like "cardio sword", train it on a floating aerobics floor to make it look sexier than taiji in the park maybe. More importantly, who's gonna go storm the modern-day version of the early 20th-century Kodokan (i.e. the UFC) like Morihei Ueshiba did?

It's fascinating stuff BUT - one year at a BJJ school with a little muay thai will make you a fighter a LOT faster. This is graduate level stuff, so to speak, for those who want to put in an insane level of commitment. With not a major lot of returns for a long time. So I certainly wouldn't recommend abandoning any art one is training - unless the art is not very good to begin with.
Assuming aiki skills require multiple decades to reach a practical peak, the idea of sport-fighting ever being dominated by guys with unchiseled torsos approaching middle age (or whatever the equilibrium point is in life span where technical skill + internal strength would intersect and surpass technical skill + external strength) is hilarious! This would make for some lively chit-chat over mojitos during pau hana.

I do not know if Araki-ryu once had these type of skills. On one level, I doubt it - because it was a "grunt-level" training - for ordinary soldiers who would be in the muck doing the actual fighting.
What? Araki-ryu has no waza involving tachi while riding a horse or involving a war fan while seated?? Us neither. In fact, were shiatsu therapists any higher in the societal hierarchy of feudal Japan than blind masseurs (if there was even differentiation between shiatsu and massage then)? Makes me think that Hakkoryu’s “martial massage”, which I really feel is sublime in today’s world, may’ve been considered flat-out gauche before the Meiji Restoration.

On the other hand, as I train in this new type material, it keeps changing my Araki-ryu without changing the outer form in the least. At my relatively advanced age, I'm, all of a sudden, getting more powerful and faster in application of technique, with far less movement and no wind-up.
How is the rest of the school reacting to this?

And, I want to be very clear, on a scale of one to ten in this area of internal skills, I'm currently rating myself as a 1.347. Just scratching the surface.
So much for ki/aiki being non-quantifiable?! :D That’s not exactly insignificant on a pie chart. You don’t seem to be the type to compromise your reputation easily, so I can only assume you’re an utter madman or training like one.

Ellis Amdur

07-03-2010, 01:46

"How is the rest of the school reacting to this?"
???
The rest of the school? I have two students in America, and appr. 10 in Europe. (the latter all beginners). Anyway, what's to react? I get better, they get better.
Best
Ellis Amdur

Ellis Amdur

07-03-2010, 02:15

Mert - one to ten? One is the low end. 1.347
E. Amdur

Koshu

07-03-2010, 03:39

Mert - one to ten? One is the low end. 1.347
E. Amdur
It's relative though. A car with the potential to go 100 miles per hour would wreak major havoc on a person it hit going top speed. if that same car hits someone at 13.47 miles per hour, I still think it's going to cause trauma, or at least noticeably displace the person, especially if the car is accelerating.

It's not like the people who can genuinely relate to why you started this thread train in belt factories. Going from white belt to shodan in anything meaningful would be a fine accomplishment in the same amount of time.

LOL, you've got more students than we do right now. When I get back to L.A. for a visit, I'm looking forward to trying something I finally figured out about the use of atemi in our art (my teacher agreed I found something in the jujutsu that had been hidden in plain sight).

A.J. Bryant

07-03-2010, 15:54

Ellis & Mert,

From my experience in Hakko-ryu (Dentokan branch), there is no significant formalized training in aiki as defined by the Kodokai, Sagawa Dojo lineage, etc. Hobbs sensei trained for several years and finally received Shihan while at the Hakko-ryu Hombu, and then menkyo kaiden from Irie Yasuhiro (who would definitley know).

There is emphasis on relaxed technique and use of aiki-age and aiki-sage at advanced levels of Hakko-ryu, but no internal training like what is being taught by some. I don't think Okuyama soke ever learned any of this from Sokaku Takeda, or it surely would be in the system. I would describe aiki at the higher levels of Hakko-ryu as being similar to how the mainline Daito-ryu (i.e. Kondo sensei) defines it.

In addition, certain technical aspects are intentionally withheld from students at the lower levels, then introduced at the higher levels. Off topic, but I'm very curious if this was standard practice in other schools.

Cheers!

Koshu

07-04-2010, 00:37

Hi Andrew --- Nice hearing from you!

I understand what you mean about Kondo's definition, found here (http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=77). It comfortably fits in our practice as well, especially given the inclusion of shiatsu which emphasizes, you could say, the kinder (though sometimes no less painful) side of atemi. But ultimately because of the shiatsu, the ki use in Hakkoryu is logically unique among the arts descended from Daito-ryu. Certain things in our body movement and kamae that differ from that of mainline Daito-ryu, less emphasis on audible kiai, etc. add up to support this.

So, if the uke suddenly releases both wrists during tachi-waza in Hakkoryu, no matter how much muscle and pushing the uke applies to that point, what is the explanation for how tori maintains a "state of 'nukite'" (taking liberty to coin a KoKoDo term) without using muscle and stays firmly rooted without going off balance following the release? I realize we could just chalk this up to good jujutsu, but what specifically allows this to happen?

More later.

A.J. Bryant

07-04-2010, 07:26

Hi Mert,

I was referring more to the current explanation Kondo sensei gives in his new DVD "Daito Ryu: What is Aiki?" (http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=29664&cat=103&page=1) where he physically demonstrates the mainline's difference between Jujutsu and Aikijujutsu. Hakko-ryu and derivatives teach this "Aikijujutsu" (though honestly, some would simply call it sophisticated Jujutsu I think).

In my experience, Hakko-ryu does not have the type of "aiki" (i.e., aiki-no-jutsu) taught within the Kodokai, Roppokai, Sagawa Dojo lineage, etc, as discussed in "Transparent Power" (http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=29284&cat=&page=1) by Kimura sensei, and of course, Amdur sensei's book. I should not get too specific, but higher level teachings in Hakko-ryu (Shihan, Kaiden & Sandaikichu) emphasize maintaining a "connection" to the opponent, staying relaxed, keeping the opponent off-balance at the moment of contact, etc, but nowhere in the curriculum is there instruction on the type of aiki taught by the above Daito-ryu lineages--based upon all the recent research that has been done and/or leaked out, IMO.

However, what I described above in Hakko-ryu is very similar if not identical to how Kondo sensei describes and physically demonstrates Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu in the mainline tradition. Whether or not the internal aiki taught by other lineages exists in the mainline is a matter of debate for some, however, I think the evidence is clear that Sokaku Takeda didn't sytematically teach this "aiki" and held it cose to give himself the edge over his students.

As far as Nukite, are you talking about Hakko Zeme (we call it Ryote Tori Zeme)? This technique is done dramatically different depending on branch and there are a lot of henka. Hard to discuss without seeing your version.

Happy 4th!

Koshu

07-04-2010, 21:12

I was referring more to the current explanation Kondo sensei gives in his new DVD "Daito Ryu: What is Aiki?"
Andrew --- Interesting! How does the definition of aiki in the new video differ from the definition Kondo provided as of 1992?

. . . some would simply call it sophisticated Jujutsu I think . . .

. . . I realize we could just chalk this up to good jujutsu . . .
Again, very much on the same page as you. Well, maybe it’s that simple. The shodai soke labeled Hakkoryu “jujutsu”. Even though Hakkoryu has a distinct flavor of mechanics and utilization of ki in the form of the “connection” you mentioned, I’m OK with those who say in the end it’s just really “sophisticated jujutsu” (due to its relatively in-depth attention to pressure points in combination with kansetsu-waza) since Hakkoryu is only one of the more recent in the long history of jujutsu systems that touch on ki in training to greater or lesser degrees.

Now, developing the internal skills unique to Hakkoryu (among the Daito-ryu family of arts) that are honed in the shiatsu and fed back into the jujutsu is another story. A number of seekers have visited Hakkoryu folks looking for the path or part of the path to aiki. Those I’ve met haven’t found what they’re looking for due in large part to the reasons you stated above (and I suspect a few of these folks found the idea of studying shiatsu nowhere near as cool as what they experienced in Roppokai clinics they’d attended, for example). But seemingly endless thumb-noodling on keiraku is part of what anyone serious about reaching the pinnacle of skills (independent of the pinnacle of rank) Hakkoryu has to offer must undertake. It’s clearly a different path altogether. I think it’s too bad that most Hakkoryu students, at least among those I’ve met, pay so little serious attention to the shiatsu (though most really like to be on the receiving end of it), despite the extra dimension to jujutsu skills clearly displayed by some of those in the art (across the Hakko-ryu/ha), such as Yasuhiro Sensei, who devote great attention to it and even treat it as a vocation. (Not that just doing shiatsu in of itself is a guarantee of being able to achieve any skills in a martial context.)

So what of the validity of Takeda’s aiki in Hakkoryu then? If it is, or would be valid in mainline Daito-ryu (as the case may be depending on who you ask), and long-time aikidoka who within the past few years have sampled the skills of those who claim to have distilled it within the past few decades say it’s valid in their respective interpretations of aikido, why wouldn’t it be valid in our ryuha which are much closer in look, feel and intent to Daito-ryu than the vast majority of modern aikido? I’m sure there are those who feel the “sophisticated blending” of much of modern aikido is a perfectly fine interpretation of a word that doesn’t technically have a fixed definition, and things naturally evolve over time (it’s a riot watching someone who’s only “type"d using a computer keyboard try to do the same on a manual "type"writer). But since the assumption for these types of discussions is that Ueshiba got Takeda’s aiki skills, the case for rediscovering it within aikido or adding it back in via adjunct practice can be seen as rightful. However, would Takeda’s aiki have been an anethema in Hakkoryu when the art was founded, let alone today?

In addition, certain technical aspects are intentionally withheld from students at the lower levels, then introduced at the higher levels. Off topic, but I'm very curious if this was standard practice in other schools.
If we're talking about shodan-gi through yondan-gi, then exposure is relatively open, given the mix of ranks in the dojo and what's demonstrated at taikai. But as far as purple-belt stuff being shown to mudansha or lower-level yudansha, it's not expressly demonstrated or taught for all to see: hidden in plain sight. But then, there's the jujutsu and shiatsu nexus discussed above. I've seen and felt some things I can't explain (nor can the students from JPL or Caltech who've been pondering it for years): hidden even when it plainly smacks you upside the head.

As far as Nukite, are you talking about Hakko Zeme (we call it Ryote Tori Zeme)? This technique is done dramatically different depending on branch and there are a lot of henka. Hard to discuss without seeing your version.
I primarily had that waza in mind Andrew, but maintaining relaxed balance the whole time against an uke pushing as hard as possible then suddenly releasing should apply to any waza, ryote or katate, tori beginning in seiza or standing, in which the uke grabs the tori's wrists. Would you agree?

Happy 4th!
Same to you and the rest of the Dentokan folks (well, at least those on the side of the Atlantic where it's still July 4th :D)

A.J. Bryant

07-06-2010, 07:03

Hello Mert,

Hope all is well and you had a good 4th of July.

As far as Kondo sensei’s explanation of “Aiki” in the old interview and new DVD, there isn’t any difference. It’s just much clearer when you get an entire video account, over a few sentences in an interview.

Regarding internal aiki skills and Hakko-ryu. I know of a few Hakko-ryu people right now who are cross training in some Daito-ryu lineages that focus on aiki. Personally, I wouldn’t be interested in cross-training to bring such skills back to Hakko-ryu; it would be for the study of Daito-ryu in and of itself... Further, would it even be necessary to bring such internal aiki back to Hakko-ryu? Of course it would improve one’s overall skill (in any art), but did the founder intend for Hakko-ryu to be a sophisticated system of aikijujutsu, or did he intend for it to be a hybrid shiatsu and goshinjutsu system based, in part, on Daito-ryu?

As I mentioned earlier, I do think Hakko-ryu has aiki as defined by some lineages of Daito-ryu, and in the Dentokan, Hobbs sensei has chosen to call our branch “Dentokan Aikijujutsu” here in the US. As you know, in Hakko-ryu, the only technique with aiki in its name is Aiki Nage from Shodan-Gi. If this waza encapsulates the founder’s view of “aiki”, then we have a pretty clear idea of what that was--blending with and redirecting the energy of the opponent. That said, in Hakko-ryu, there are other terms for what some may define as “aiki”, such as Roken Senretsu (Shoulder of the Road) and Shinki Yaku Jo (God Skin) of Sandaikichu (I only reveal these on a public forum because my teacher has listed them publically, but I will not explain them). These principles are emphasized in Shihan-Gi and even more so in Kaiden-Gi. Still, do they have anything to do with the internal aiki skills so often discussed today, I don’t think so, but that’s just my opinion based on my very low level of understanding, and the various descriptions of the specific personal training exercises used to develop these special aiki skills.

So to sum up and reiterate: my personal opinion is that Hakko-ryu contains aiki, just not the high level aiki as defined by some Daito-ryu lineages.

As far as technical elements being withheld from students at lower levels of Hakko-ryu, I was referring to Shihan-Gi and Kaiden-Gi. In these sets, you are taught different ways to perform many of the omote waza (Shodan to Yondan). In keeping with tradition, I will not reveal any of the specifics here, but many of these are very simple and most students figure them out by the time they reach the higher levels. In fact, following Irie sensei’s example, Hobbs sensei incorporated many of these methods into the omote techniques in the Dentokan branch. He didn’t see any reason to withhold better ways to perform the techniques from any student. It’s my suspicion that many classical ryuha did this however (withheld certain technical elements of techniques) to keep the real goods from leaking out.

Cheers!

Koshu

07-07-2010, 01:43

Regarding internal aiki skills and Hakko-ryu. I know of a few Hakko-ryu people right now who are cross training in some Daito-ryu lineages that focus on aiki. Personally, I wouldn’t be interested in cross-training to bring such skills back to Hakko-ryu; it would be for the study of Daito-ryu in and of itself... Further, would it even be necessary to bring such internal aiki back to Hakko-ryu? Of course it would improve one’s overall skill (in any art), but did the founder intend for Hakko-ryu to be a sophisticated system of aikijujutsu, or did he intend for it to be a hybrid shiatsu and goshinjutsu system based, in part, on Daito-ryu? . . .

. . . So to sum up and reiterate: my personal opinion is that Hakko-ryu contains aiki, just not the high level aiki as defined by some Daito-ryu lineages.
Andrew --- A lot of compelling points raised in your last post! I'm a bit pressed for time at the moment, so I’ll respond in more detail later.

I feel that it is a hybrid shiatsu and goshin-jutsu system, vs. an aiki-jujutsu system (in the aiki-no-jujutsu-centric Kodokai/Roppokai sense) as well. Now, to clarify things to which I was alluding earlier, based on the information being disseminated about the characteristics of aiki body skills, I'd say that some of us are expected to train to achieve what's been called a "baseline" level of these skills, from day one in Hakkoryu, with the expectation that a student's ability to ground uke's attacks in a manner that reinforces his/her own kamae will gradually increase over time, along with the ability to employ the tactical "aiki" we've discussed that may be analogous to that of mainline Daito-ryu (at least the omote definition that's been repeated over time) and the utilization of ki (related to shiatsu). This mix of these three flavors of ai/ki may vary between Hakko-ryu/ha and even between dojo and teachers within a given line, so I’m OK with someone saying aiki a la aiki-no-jutsu is 0% in a given interpretation. I just wouldn’t agree with that since the proper kamae needed to withstand a resistant uke in Hakko-Zeme / Ryote-Tori-Zeme is part of the aiki-skills baseline being discussed.

How about this to keep it simple? No one says you can’t do yoga, pilates, weight training, P90X etc. to have a better body with which to do Hakkoryu or any other martial art, right? So why would the internal body training at the center of all this discussion, which reportedly is best approached as exercise unrelated to the techniques of a given martial art, be any different since it’s not unique to Daito-ryu, and like other types of fitness training has general health benefits?

A.J. Bryant

07-07-2010, 07:27

Koshu

07-07-2010, 12:28

Mert,

Are you referring to the use of "hakko" (i.e. aiki-age) and extending "ki" through the little finger in Hakko Dori, Hakko Zeme, Yoko Katate Osae Dori, etc., as Shodai Soke emphasized a lot to negate an opponent's strength?
I'm referring to a quality in the kamae that supports such techniques and facilitates the extension of ki when hakko is achieved. This quality should be there also even if the contact is not via wrist grab, e.g. the osae-dori waza, or the uke simply pushing onto the chest, head, etc.

A.J. Bryant

07-07-2010, 12:57

Koshu

07-07-2010, 23:53

I see. To me, this is simply maintaining your center, which is fundamental to all martial arts. If I'm wrong (which is entirley pssible given the difficulty of explaining physical movements through words), would you mind explaining exatly what quality you are refering to and what you do physically to achive this? Always interesting to hear how other branches of Hakko-ryu do things.
Hi again Andrew --- I think it is that simple. Maintaining one's center is the objective, again with the caveat that this is done in a way that uke's effort adds to (or at least doesn't compromise) the tori's balance and kamae.

In addition to settling mentally and physically with proper body alignment as stated in Hakkoryu literature, the practice involves conscious adjustments in kamae to help ensure that incoming forces reinforce one's stance: for example ensuring the trailing leg and hip are squared toward the incoming force so that the tori's body structure conducts the force downward vs. in the initial direction of the force (e.g. backward). The uke pushes with increasing effort using a katate, ryote or morote grab, or pushes on the tori's body. When it works for me, I feel like my body's a taught spring and the uke's effort creates a comfortable compression toward the earth: the water is primed, and turning into Hiki-Nage or Hakko-Nage for example really lets the uke fly. But if I tense up, I feel like a timbering wooden mannequin (stiff and unconnected) and over I go, which is most of the time since I'm consciously incompetent at this stage. We practice this without hakko since it induces kuzushi, whereas the goal of the exercise is to allow the uke full leverage to push. This type of thing isn't unique (apparently it was practiced in mainline Hakkoryu at some point in time and sounds similar to a Ki Society push test, for example). After a few static rounds of this, tori tries to maintain this grounded kamae while moving, with a lot more epic fails in the process.

Quote from Mike Sigman: "The baseline skill would be to simply be able to stand and let Uke's push go to the ground."

I have no idea which other Hakko-ryu/ha folks think this type of practice is legitimate vs. in left field (the attention to such details in kamae reportedly came from mainline Hakkoryu at some point in time), and don't know if this bears any resemblance to how folks acknowledged as aiki experts approach training. Maybe it's training for blending aiki and Hakkoryu ki specifically (but that doesn't change the fact that it meets the above definition for baseline which is common to all these flavors of ai/ki use).

A.J. Bryant

07-08-2010, 06:39

Hi Mert,

Thanks for the description; that makes more sense. As a converted Aikidoka, this sounds similar to kokyu training methods I experienced, though I know kokyu may be another term for what some call aiki. Regardless, there are a few techniques in Kaiden where you turn the opponent’s attacking force back into them (from the ground) and float them throughout the remainder of the technique. This type of reversal of power is not unique to these techniques, and as you mentioned, can be applied in many other basic level techniques as well, depending on the skill of tori/nage. However, in Kaiden, there is no mistaking or misinterpretation of what you’re doing, which is IMO, precisely what you are supposed to be learning. The waza is simply and example.

I’ll be honest though Mert, our branch of Hakko-ryu (at least in the US) does not focus much on this type of training. Given Hobbs sensei’s career in the military and strong karate background, we lean more toward the harder side rather than the softer subtle side of the spectrum. That said, each instructor is allowed to experiment as much as they wish in their own dojo. I prefer a harder approach myself.

BTW, I think we have discussed Hakko-ryu more in this thread than has happened in the last 5 years... :D

Cheers!

Koshu

07-08-2010, 12:19

Andrew --- I'm glad we're having this conversation, if only because I think it helps others, not only us, better appreciate what makes Hakkoryu different from as well as similar to (from different perspectives/interpretations) other arts in the Daito-ryu lineage, vs. being "like Daito-ryu with emphasis on pressure points" or "aikido with smaller circles with emphasis on pressure points".

The ai/ki training is only part of the equation, of course. If you got the impression that my lineage focuses primarily on the internal aspects, then that's because we haven't gotten around to discussing our respective approaches to the technical and tactical aspects of the jujutsu per se (that would make for an equally interesting discussion, though it's not what this thread is about). My teacher, Gil Adams, was very happy to see that Hobbs Sensei teaches older, less gentile variations of kihon waza that are the same or similar to the ones he learned and teaches. I got into Hakkoryu because of all the arts I sampled when looking for self-defense training, Adams Sensei's approach most appealed to me (at that time I couldn't have cared less about ai/ki, shiatsu and just about everything else we've discussed in this thread).

Since I'm a ways from formal indoctrination to shihan training, I appreciate your perspective since it helps me better understand how our teachers are setting us up for long-term success in the art.

I think this clip of Seigo Okamoto helps illustrate just how similar Hakkoryu and Daito-ryu can be. It's a basic technique (that can be infused with higher-level understandings, as discussed above) in both arts, but regardless of to what degree the implementation of ai/ki and interpretations of the underlying principles, are similar or not, I'm not sure the difference matters in this particular example --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKJm3Sn4K-I

A.J. Bryant

07-09-2010, 07:08

Mert,

Yes, I've seen that clip of Okamoto sensei and most of the others on Youtube, as well as some private video shared by one of his students here in the US. The throw in this particular video has clear similarities with movements found in Hakko-ryu, but as you said, this really isn't high level aiki. Still, it shows what could be in Hakko-ryu. That said, this would also apply to Aikido as well.

My point in deciding to participate in this thread (I don't normally participate in forums much anymore) was to relay the lack of formal training in high level internal skills in Hakko-ryu. Amdur sensei said he didn’t think it existed based upon his limited exposure to the omote waza and I just wanted to confirm that it didn’t formally exist in the higher levels either, based upon my training... When I was initiated to Shihan training, Hobbs sensei was kind enough to share his very detailed and extensive notes taken during his own Shihan training in the early 1980s and Kaiden training with Irie sensei in the late 1990s. I have compared the curriculum with photos of the waza boards from the Hakko-ryu hombu and others I have seen at Garcia sensei’s dojo and they are identical. The notes given to me give detailed explanations of each item/waza and there is no instruction on any internal skills or high level aiki as taught within some Daito-ryu lineages. If this exists in Hakko-ryu, then it is taught outside of the formal curriculum and wasn't taught by Nidai Soke, Irie sensei or Segawa sensei, Hobbs sensei's main teachers. I suspect that if it exists in some fashion, it has been added by teachers from outside the art in other branches as supplemental training.

The only other thing I’ll say about the Shihan and Kaiden waza is what Irie sensei told Hobbs sensei at one point, “they’re mainly demonstration techniques”. In fact, most of the Shihan waza and some Kaiden waza can be seen on the various Youtube videos that exist.

Having seen your Youtube videos, I got the impression Adams sensei teaches a pretty hard version of Hakko-ryu as well. I saw quite a bit of Judo waza and I think I’ve read he teaches the Yoshitsune waza as well through a connection with Miller sensei. In his teaching of oyo waza, Hobbs sensei doesn’t teach a lot of Judo style throws, but he does incorporate several older and nastier Judo osaekomi, newaza and shime waza, as well as a lot of early military CQC ala Fairbairn and Applegate, etc. Simple and effective, go for the jugular type training. More my cup of tea. :D

Koshu

07-10-2010, 15:22

The throw in this particular video has clear similarities with movements found in Hakko-ryu, but as you said, this really isn't high level aiki. Still, it shows what could be in Hakko-ryu. That said, this would also apply to Aikido as well.
True, though I’ve not seen anyone in aikido (e.g. in kokyu-dosa) use movements that small (at least nothing online I’ve seen and based on comparisons of the techniques when aikidoka have tried Hakkoryu Aiki-Nage at the dojo).

My point in deciding to participate in this thread (I don't normally participate in forums much anymore) was to relay the lack of formal training in high level internal skills in Hakko-ryu. Amdur sensei said he didn’t think it existed based upon his limited exposure to the omote waza and I just wanted to confirm that it didn’t formally exist in the higher levels either, based upon my training. . . . there is no instruction on any internal skills or high level aiki as taught within some Daito-ryu lineages. If this exists in Hakko-ryu, then it is taught outside of the formal curriculum and wasn't taught by Nidai Soke, Irie sensei or Segawa sensei, Hobbs sensei's main teachers. I suspect that if it exists in some fashion, it has been added by teachers from outside the art in other branches as supplemental training.
Thanks Andrew. I wish I was at a point in my training where I could meaningfully compare notes throughout the syllabus, but regardless I don’t have any information to refute your conclusion. In addition, the aspects of kamae I mentioned earlier are taught as pointers to students, not as a full-blown separate training regimen that reportedly exists/existed in some corners of Daito-ryu (e.g. as reportedly taught by Yukiyoshi Sagawa late in his life) outside of the waza.

Then again, as a counterpoint to Mr. Amdur’s observations (again, based on exposure to the skills of a yondan), comes this comment from Toby Threadgill, who is also respected for his budo research and is considered knowledgeable regarding the qualities of aiki in various flavors (from a 2002 thread on E-Budo): “I know two people who received advanced training at the Hakko ryu hombu dojo. At the more advanced levels the training definitely included aiki jujutsu principles albeit without the broad variety of technical execution commonly associated with Daito ryu or Yanagi ryu. Definitely an aiki lineage art that in my opinion resides somewhere between mainline aikido and Daito ryu/Yanagi ryu in tecxhnical complexity.” Based on the context of that E-Budo thread and other discussions in which Mr. Threadgill has participated regarding aiki, I’m quite sure he was referring to more than just sophisticated atemi-blending based on timing (though as only a shodan, I’ll repeat that I’m left to wonder, and hopefully eventually discover, if the ki delivery system used in Hakkoryu produces effects on uke similar to what has been documented for high-level Daito-ryu aiki, though I’m quite certain it produces high-level effects that are compelling on their own merit).

. . . older and nastier Judo osaekomi, newaza and shime waza, as well as a lot of early military CQC ala Fairbairn and Applegate, etc. Simple and effective, go for the jugular type training. More my cup of tea.
. . . And perfectly acceptable within Hakkoryu’s utilization of principles and mandate that students must eventually explore applications off the waza board.

A.J. Bryant

07-11-2010, 06:35

Mert,

I’m sorry but I feel like I’m going around in circles here because you are not getting the answers you want... Why not go to the best source available to you? My suggestion is to ask your teacher (Gil Adams) about this topic, then please let me know what he says (publicly or privately).

I’m looking forward to hearing back from you with specifics. He should be able to tell you without revealing details. Then, we’ll go from there.

Koshu

07-11-2010, 18:50

Andrew --- Sorry, it wasn't my intention to come off like I was expecting you to validate a given perspective. I’m just trying to identify all of the different perspectives available and somehow reconcile these perspectives. I’m satisfied that my lineage, same as yours does not include aiki-no-jutsu training in the Daito-ryu vein. I plan to get a copy of the What is Aiki? video to better understand your perspective.

I've spoken to Adams Sensei at length about this topic in the past, and he stated that, based on the handful of times he's attended trainings with Okamoto Sensei (he sought to reconcile this topic for himself awhile back), his impression is that Hakkoryu can set up harmonizing effects in the uke same as those produced by the Roppokai folks. He sees the two arts as utilizing the same ki/aiki, but stated that he felt the Roppokai approach was to leave aiki switched on, whereas Hakkoryu metes out doses at a time once the uke has allowed himself/herself to be set up for hakko (transition from blending aiki to aiki-no-jutsu mainlined into keiraku/tsubo, perhaps?). I wonder if the folks you mentioned earlier who are cross-training have similar and/or different impressions.

A.J. Bryant

07-12-2010, 17:40

FYI,

This has been taken to PM. I don’t want to speak for Mert, but feel as though some explanation should be made as I know several people have been following this thread.

Mert can correct me if I’m putting words in his mouth, and I won’t give any private details away, but the crux of his position, based on his training with his instructor, Gil Adams, is that the high level internal “aiki” or “ki” power is not contained in the Jujutsu portion of the Hakko-ryu curriculum after all, rather, it lies within the Koho Igaku Shiatsu method of Shodai Soke Okuyama. This shiatsu ultimately manifests itself through “ki” energy fields and "no touch" shiatsu treatments at higher levels that then transfer over to higher level skill in the Jujutsu of the school... These teachings are not a part of my Hakko-ryu lineage (we prefer a more pragmatic approach), so I cannot comment with any degree of authority on the issue and I think it's best left there.

Koshu

07-12-2010, 22:58

Andrew --- Since our dojo has almost always been a retail business open to walk-in traffic, and folks who’ve received or observed shiatsu performed there have experienced what you described in your synopsis (including a few BudoSeekers), I’m OK with it.

A handful of clarifications:
Hakkoryu doesn’t weight jujutsu over shiatsu, or vice versa (the current mainline headmaster expressly stated the emphasis should be “fifty-fifty”). The vast majority of students, however, focus heavily on jujutsu since most seek martial arts skills. Our dojo is no exception.
Shiatsu is taught and practiced much in the same way as jujutsu: predicated on first setting the table with intent and determining weaknesses, which are then used as the way in for a given technique. Studying the subject in this manner accounts for much of the no-touch / light-touch aspect of the art, and could this be another facet of “aiki”? For beginners, it’s literally a lot like learning to read the green on a golf course: “what are the idiosyncracies of this particular body in front of me?" Can they be rectified in shiatsu, exploited in jujutsu?
I take pride in my academics regarding the art, but again at the end of the day, I’m just a shodan seeking knowledge from my sensei and sempai, here and elsewhere.

Koshu

07-14-2010, 12:58

Tying back to the original post, I received my copy of Ellis' book, and absolutely recommend it for anyone with an interest in this topic.

One thing of note from reading Chinese martial arts forums on this topic is that a lot of folks studying Chinese internal arts are saying "duh!" They're pointing out that the Chinese internal arts (discussed at length in the book) on which most of the current leading sources of aiki / nei jing being sought out to renerve Japanese arts (aikido in particular) culled their knowledge and training methodologies wholly or in part have been readily accessible all this time, maybe in the same strip mall as one's aikido dojo. That is, if one is willing to take the time to dig for quality instruction independent of where the crowds are gathering on other internet forums, which Ellis and others have done and continue to do. And for what it's worth, those currently being mobbed on the forums as aiki saviors are telling the mob the same thing: if this is really what you want, test the waters, don't settle for anyone else's hype, and see what individually suits you, if it even suits you.

Andrew on this thread makes a valid inference: is this espresso shot of high-level aiki that can reportedly come from this type of training, whether Daito-ryu derived or via nei jia (Chinese internal arts), worth altering or derailing (many quit their primary arts to investigate and develop internal skills) what for most is already quality, satisfying -- and if a consideration, practical -- training? If your pleasure comes from blending, then how does something like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAYbeyhSn9Y), fit that paradigm (in this regard Hakkoryu largely fits in the argument the same way as aikido)? And, how does one determine if the guy's skills in the video are real or fake (see above)? Some may readily see a fit, others may see oil and water. For what it's worth, there's documentation of aikidoka bouncing uke around without leading or blending, not that bouncing is the only thing aiki is reportedly good for in Japanese or Chinese arts. For example, the Hakko-Zeme / Ryote-Tori-Zeme waza discussed earlier can be used as atemi to either crush the uke's face or project the uke backward (the latter which some Hakko-ryu/ha folks would say is akin to the force-redirection stuff apparently being demonstrated in the taiji clip), or both.

Brian Dugger

07-18-2010, 16:00

Tying back to the original post, I received my copy of Ellis' book, and absolutely recommend it for anyone with an interest in this topic. . .

I read this book about 13 years ago. Some fascinating concepts, although I'm not certain the author has even thoroughly wrapped his mind the material while writing about it. And now that I've waded through all the minutia of this topic, allow me to speak from experience. Although limited as it is, it is experience nonetheless-- I’ve have spent time with Okamoto Sensei and Adams Shihan, and all of you are absolutely correct they are different. What I experienced with Adams Shihan was sincerely and certainly more indelible than what I felt from Okamoto Sensei. To say they are not the same, yes. BUT, to say Hakko does not incorporate the concepts of “aiki/ki” and Okuyama was not imparted the lessons of “aiki/ki” (whatever you will) is nonsense. If you want to know, you’re not gonna get it here mincing words or exchanging dialogue if you will. No, you must go and see for yourself. Words I’m afraid are useless here regarding this, as well as these. There will be, fortunately or unfortunately, only a few reading this which will understand the breadth of which I’ve spoken.

Ellis Amdur

07-18-2010, 17:40

Brian - all of what you wrote may be so, as I've never met Okamoto or Adams. However, you are referring to the wrong book. Dueling with OSensei is about - really - the issue of morality as a component in martial arts. The book referred to here is Hidden in Plain Sight, which is an attempt to describe a substrate of training in body skills which extends all the way back to Japan's early contacts with China, through Japanese jujutsu in the Edo period and then Daito-ryu and aikido, and how, for the most part, all of this is lost and abandoned.
Now, after reading that book, were you to do so, you might still believe that I've missed the mark. But you are talking about a different book than the one referred to here.
Best
Ellis Amdur

Toby Threadgill

08-03-2010, 15:48

Hi,

I was notified of this thread and asked to expand on a statement of mine from years ago concerning Hakko ryu and my overall experience with internal skills in budo. (aiki or whatever.....).

First, I'd like to point out that what one guy calls aiki and what another calls aiki is not necessarily the same thing. When I use the term aiki I mean anything in the Daito ryu lineage manifesting internal body skills. So, since thats cleared up, it is true I've had hands on experience with some pretty senior Hakko ryu guys that definitely had “aiki”. I’ve also felt some similarly ranked Hakko ryu guys who did not seem to have these same skills. The question that remains unanswered in my mind is how and why that is so. It leads me to believe there is not a codified method for teaching these skills in Hakko ryu. I have seen the video of Okuyama mentioned by Ellis and must admit I didn't see what I expected as there was no observable evidence of what I think most people would define as high level "aiki". There could be a lot of reasons for this but speculation on the topic of why is ultimately beyond the scope of this discussion. Did Okuyama learn "real" aiki? Could he execute jujutsu with "aiki" I'll never know as I never had my hands on the man, but some of his guys do have a certain level of internal skills because I’ve felt them. At the end of the day its up to those in the Hakko ryu to evaluate and define how Okuyama's version of aiki should manifest itself in their curriculum, right?

Now, concerning Okamoto sensei and Angier sensei, who were also mentioned as examplars of high level aiki, I've had extensive hands on experience with both of these men. I would say that both men definitlely demonstrated very advanced internal body skills, although both these gentlemen exhibited uniquely individualized expressions of these skills.

My own teacher Takamura Yukiyoshi's nairiki/myoden technique was similar but different, based on identical principles but probably less subtle in application than either Okamoto or Angier. However one must remember that subtle doesn’t necessarily indicate effectiveness. In my experience Takamura’s overall execution of technique was utterly fantastic as his flawless timing, blistering speed and impressive power generation, come together in frighteningly effective application of waza. In my opinion his technical skills were the most martially decisive of the three. And before anyone thinks he was only doing mechanical jujutsu, remember that there is a codified system for teaching internal strength (nairiki) in TSYR that has its roots in Akiyama lineage Yoshin ryu jujutsu. Consequently, there is ample evidence to prove that Takamura's effectiveness was enhanced by employing internal body skills as an integral part of his overall martial movement.

So.....Each of the above men manifested varying levels and dimensions of internal training. I think each of these men took a body of internal knowledge and skills, refined them and made them their own within the boundaries of their respective arts. Okuyama probably did something similar with Hakko ryu and for anyone to second guess his vision for Hakko ryu is pretty snarky stuff. Hakko ryu, like all schools deserves to stand on its own merits without being evaluated outside is own paradigm.

And here’s something else that neeeds to be said...Keep this internal stuff in perspective. Despite all the recent hype, internal training does not guarantee anyone super human abilities. Its just one interesting tool among many in the budo toolbox. Admittedly, its one that has probably been neglected or misunderstood for many years so its good that people like Ellis are encouraging the examination and evaluation of these skills again, but like everything, these skills definitely have their limits. For instance, I have a student that is so friggin strong he’d have just picked up an aiki guy like Sagawa and thrown him across the room. At some point, sheer horsepower always wins. And in a world where razor sharp swords are employed, internal body skill’s manifesting strength and power are much less decisive than internal skills manifesting speed, precision and fluidity. In the environment of swords, these skills rule the day and are why I'd be much more threatened by the blistering speed of Tetsuzan Kuroda’s sword than any King Kong of Aiki!

Everything is relative....

Eric Joyce

08-04-2010, 21:44

Koshu

08-05-2010, 01:55

Thank you for dropping by Mr. Threadgill.

I've had hands on experience with some pretty senior Hakko ryu guys that definitely had “aiki”. I’ve also felt some similarly ranked Hakko ryu guys who did not seem to have these same skills. The question that remains unanswered in my mind is how and why that is so. It leads me to believe there is not a codified method for teaching these skills in Hakko ryu.
How would you describe the flavor/expression of aiki you felt from the Hakkoryu men as compared to those of other arts (Daito-ryu in particular because of the direct relationship between the two arts)? Were these Hakkoryu men Japanese or gaijin, studying in Japan or elsewhere?

Earlier in this thread I described a bit of how my lineage of Hakkoryu approaches internal skills based on the training literature from the mainline school, and it doesn’t involve anything that at first, or perhaps even second glance, appears similar to the descriptions I’ve read of tanren (i.e. solo training) exercises implemented in TSYR, Daito-ryu, Aunkai, or internal Chinese martial arts. Nonetheless, the literature contains very specific references about how to develop the use of ki (notably not "aiki"). While most students approach these descriptions as attributes of proper kihon waza, it’s important to note that a number of the instructions, particularly the most foundational, are separate from descriptions of how to execute waza. There is also the art’s eponymous stance shown in the literature that does not belong to a waza per se (hmmmm, it happens to have similarities to an internal Chinese arts "combat stance" I've seen online). What does it mean to a given student when the teacher insists lecture after lecture to continuously practice these basics regardless of “how well you think you know them”? (For most, it means “he’s the teacher, he’s supposed to remind us, but I got that nailed when I was a white belt, so let’s work on yondan-gi instead.”) What does it mean when the mainline school’s nidai soke says emphasis on jujutsu and shiatsu should be “fifty-fifty”, but students across all the Hakko-ryu/ha only appreciate the “softer” half of the system when they need some ailment addressed? So what if a few Hakko-ryu/ha students read the literature, notice how distinctly the basics are laid out, then, in addition to paired training, decide to dedicate a couple hours a day of solo practice only to these basics (there’s also tanren for shiatsu) for a few years?

By the way, do the Kodokai and Roppokai, like the Sagawa lineage of Daito-ryu, incorporate tanren to develop aiki, or is it purely through waza?

I have seen the video of Okuyama mentioned by Ellis and must admit I didn't see what I expected as there was no observable evidence of what I think most people would define as high level "aiki". There could be a lot of reasons for this but speculation on the topic of why is ultimately beyond the scope of this discussion. . . . Each of the above men manifested varying levels and dimensions of internal training. I think each of these men took a body of internal knowledge and skills, refined them and made them their own within the boundaries of their respective arts. Okuyama probably did something similar with Hakko ryu. . . .
Is this video posted online anywhere? There’s this one featuring Okuyama from a Hakkoryu promotional film --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-r0FN8BR9Y. I agree with you, and don’t mind speculating that the traditional Asian medicine component of the art may allow for a different look in how ai/ki is deployed relative to other arts. Did the Hakkoryu men you met look (as well as feel) more in line with what one might expect from someone versed in aiki?

. . . there is ample evidence to prove that Takamura's effectiveness was enhanced by employing internal body skills as an integral part of his overall martial movement. . . . And in a world where razor sharp swords are employed, internal body skill’s manifesting strength and power are much less decisive than internal skills manifesting speed, precision and fluidity. In the environment of swords, these skills rule the day and are why I'd be much more threatened by the blistering speed of Tetsuzan Kuroda’s sword than any King Kong of Aiki!

I’ve seen video of your sword work, and you’re not exactly slow yourself (though I too am blown away by the speed of Kuroda’s iai). Would the speed/precision/fluidity internal skills still be aiki as you’ve defined it? Is tanren for the latter the same as for training for strength/power at the outset, with learning how to apply the internal skills to jujutsu vs. weapon work coming later?

. . . I have a student that is so friggin strong he’d have just picked up an aiki guy like Sagawa and thrown him across the room. At some point, sheer horsepower always wins.
Ah, but can he do that to you, Toby-san? A lot of people within the Japanese arts that expressly use the term “aiki” consider Sagawa to have been the gold standard, so that’s saying something. Does this assume your student has aiki as well, so big guy with aiki trumps little guy with aiki, or do you feel Sagawa would be unable to hold his kamae against the best UFC heavyweight today who does not believe in chi balls? (Let’s assume for the above question that the UFC heavyweight is not an inner-door student of the Gracies or Machados, and has not been taught their flavor of aiki to which you referred in the past.)

Speaking of BJJ aiki, where did that come from?? The BJJ folks who’ve trained with us have done so in part because aiki isn’t part of their training (and they didn’t indicate any knowledge of it being taught at any level within their lineages). I thought I read somewhere (might’ve been in Hidden in Plain Sight which I don’t have with me at the moment or something else Ellis wrote, but could be wrong) that the koryu from which Jigoro Kano primarily derived judo incorporate aiki, and Kano was impressed by Morihei Ueshiba’s demonstrations of aiki -- however Kano himself did not attain facility with aiki nor incorporate it into judo. If this is the case, then did the Brazilians identify aiki as a superior attribute and develop a methodology to impart it to students on their own? I realize you may not know the answers to these questions, but I believe there are some folks on this forum who are BJJ devotees, yet appreciate what aiki is about.

Mekugi

08-05-2010, 04:53

the koryu from which Jigoro Kano primarily derived judo incorporate aiki, and Kano was impressed by Morihei Ueshiba’s demonstrations of aiki -- however Kano himself did not attain facility with aiki nor incorporate it into judo. If this is the case, then did the Brazilians identify aiki as a superior attribute and develop a methodology to impart it to students on their own? I realize you may not know the answers to these questions, but I believe there are some folks on this forum who are BJJ devotees, yet appreciate what aiki is about.

Kito ryu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mJ_Hnns2Qw). These kata are still in the syllabi at the Kodokan.

Koshu

08-05-2010, 13:25

Kito ryu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mJ_Hnns2Qw). These kata are still in the syllabi at the Kodokan.
Thanks Russ --- HiPS chapter 1 refers to "special" training in Kito-ryu (which Ellis indicates is no longer extant) and solo training in Tenjin Shinyo-ryu (as well as such training in Yoshin-ryu, on which Toby has expanded).

If what Toby has concluded from what he's observed and been told regarding BJJ is accurate (again, I'm assuming his ability to discern what is and isn't aiki has merit based on his reported background and skills), then maybe the answer lies in Mitsuyo Maeda's particular history, and/or perhaps Kano did glean something related to internal training from the koryu after all, but did not feature it in his mass training model? If the latter's true, then you'd expect accounts of other high-ranking judoka with internal skills to be recorded during the 20th century.

Mekugi

08-06-2010, 04:03

Thanks Russ --- HiPS chapter 1 refers to "special" training in Kito-ryu (which Ellis indicates is no longer extant) and solo training in Tenjin Shinyo-ryu (as well as such training in Yoshin-ryu, on which Toby has expanded).

If what Toby has concluded from what he's observed and been told regarding BJJ is accurate (again, I'm assuming his ability to discern what is and isn't aiki has merit based on his reported background and skills), then maybe the answer lies in Mitsuyo Maeda's particular history, and/or perhaps Kano did glean something related to internal training from the koryu after all, but did not feature it in his mass training model? If the latter's true, then you'd expect accounts of other high-ranking judoka with internal skills to be recorded during the 20th century.

Hmmm...I dunno. His (Kano's) comments after seeing Aikido and then sending a one Mr. Tomiki to learn it doesn't seem to mesh with the idea that he learned internal training, at least not in my mind. This is an opinion only, nothing to back it up but a semi-educated guess. I do know that when Dr. Kano started to learn Tenjin Shinyo ryu he was tossed around in live randori like a rag-doll during his formative years. According to his biography this was his instructors style of teaching, where you would learn throws by being tossed about by a senior. Kind of a wicked osmosis. It was when Kano saw Kito ryu demonstrated through a university event (or at least I believe it was) that he was wowed by their seemingly "effortless" technique and realized that brute training would only get him so far. I believe that was the "first" Aiki he was exposed to.

Through Takagi ryu (which has a deep root in Yoshin ryu and then later, Takenouchi ryu and Kukishin ryu) I've noticed that a great deal of what could be called "internal training" is found in the Kihon, which is a modern concoction based on the principles inside the kata, yanked out and set in front to make sure that they are understood.

As far as ancient kata goes, I've found that internal training is based on principle and the study of heiho (or hyoho if one likes) and if I were to wager a bet, I would look there first. In my opinion, the heiho is the root of the school, everything wells up from there (ideally).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Toby Threadgill

08-09-2010, 14:10

Hi,

I do not have time to answer all the questions asked but let me make a couple of quick comments.

I prefer not to get into commenting on individual Hakko ryu guys I've had my hands on as my experience with them was limited. Besides I dislike people who publicly say things like this guy (real name) has x and that guy (real name) doesn't. Ultimately my opinion is just one persons opinion and it should be taken as such, and it is the opinion of a person who is not claiming to be an authority on Hakko ryu. Please remember I just made the comment that I had felt some Hakko ryu guys that had internal skills while some others I had felt did not seem to manifest similar skills. That's all.

Also, I've never said a BJJ guy like Carlos Machado had "aiki" I said he had a form of internal skill and was very adept at applying it. First, we need to stop calling everything "aiki" Aiki is internal training/skills manifest thru the lens of Daito ryu lineage arts. Secondly, we might do well to stop assuming that internal skills must be achieved thru some structured pedagogy that originated in a martial tradition connected to some earlier budo superman. Who knows, maybe Carlos's skill was achieved via his own natural ability, talents and insights with and a zillion hours of rolling on the ground thrown in. Why not? The point of my comment about Carlos was to muse that these skills are not necessarily uncommon and that there might be numerous ways to learn them and consequently apply them. In the case of TSYR there is a clear methodology going back to an earlier source in China but I'm frankly suspicious of those who claim that such a path is the only path to achieve these skills.

Lastly, Mert asked if my student Karl Garrison could pick me up and throw me across the room. Uhh....Yes he can and has done so. He also did the same with Takamura sensei. In Karl's prime he was 5'8" and 285lbs with about 10% body fat. The circumference of his thighs exceeded his waist and his arms were larger around than my legs. As a young powerlifter he could dead lift in excess of 750 lbs. Sagawa wouldn't have had a chance.

:)

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

Koshu

08-10-2010, 00:50

I prefer not to get into commenting on individual Hakko ryu guys I've had my hands on as my experience with them was limited. . . .
I respect your position on this Toby (I didn’t think my phrasing would make these folks individually identifiable). A better question to ask might be: did you feel there were any correlations between those in Hakkoryu you’ve met who have aiki skills, their ethnicities (Japanese or gaijin), and/or where they received the bulk of their training (Japan or elsewhere)? It's definitely hit and miss in the U.S.

Also, I've never said a BJJ guy like Carlos Machado had "aiki" . . . The point of my comment about Carlos was to muse that these skills are not necessarily uncommon and that there might be numerous ways to learn them and consequently apply them.
The definition of “aiki” was broader in the original context (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17018), so I understand why you’re making this clarification. Anyway, I took away from your previous comments on this topic that whatever internal body skill is being applied in BJJ has properties and effects on uke/opponents similar to some applications of Daito-ryu aiki. I also noticed later in the thread linked above (after a more thorough read) that one of the commenters stated he has been pointed toward Ginastica Natural (http://www.ginasticanatural.com) and yoga by BJJ black belts.

. . . In the case of TSYR there is a clear methodology going back to an earlier source in China but I'm frankly suspicious of those who claim that such a path is the only path to achieve these skills.
For all we know, the members of the Queen’s Guard protecting Buckingham Palace are practicing some kind of pole-standing. :D But seriously, there are the ongoing discussions regarding internal skills that appear to be present in Systema, as an example (well, maybe not the best example since Russia borders China, which doesn’t rule out a tie-in).

Karl Garrison could pick me up and throw me across the room. . . . He also did the same with Takamura sensei. In Karl's prime he was 5'8" and 285lbs with about 10% body fat. The circumference of his thighs exceeded his waist and his arms were larger around than my legs. As a young powerlifter he could dead lift in excess of 750 lbs. Sagawa wouldn't have had a chance.
Well, we understand from Tokimune Takeda that his dad kept a blade handy around the clock as a complement to his aiki, right?

Koshu

08-10-2010, 00:56

. . . As far as ancient kata goes, I've found that internal training is based on principle and the study of heiho (or hyoho if one likes) and if I were to wager a bet, I would look there first. In my opinion, the heiho is the root of the school, everything wells up from there (ideally).

Hi Russ --- Given that most of the contemporary discussions about aiki / internal skills essentially treat the topic as a form of sublime fitness training, separate from waza let alone heiho, would you mind expounding a bit?

Mekugi

08-10-2010, 03:28

Hi Russ --- Given that most of the contemporary discussions about aiki / internal skills essentially treat the topic as a form of sublime fitness training, separate from waza let alone heiho, would you mind expounding a bit?

I don't think I can do this any justice....but here's my two bits:

There is a school I am rather familiar with that has this circular hip motion that is taught from start of training. That is, you do the "hoochie-koochi" with your hips when you are learning the basics. Next you learn the unarmed techniques, next you go onto the introductory weaponry. That little motion is used throughout the syllabus and is "pivotal" to understanding the kata (haha...pivot...hips...get it....meh). You use it in one way or another in just about everything. Focus on the hips, abdomen, posture and alignment goes with the primary teachings, so it bleeds into everything. Not only does it make you a hit on the dance floor when you get out to the clubs, it teaches you the very essence of the schools strategy, which is then "revealed" later on (I'm still waiting for that...granted). I think Hunter Armstrong mentioned it one time with his analogy of one man, any weapon in that it is present through and through and is a major part of the overall strategy that is hiding behind everything.

How's that?

A.J. Bryant

08-10-2010, 06:20

I had the good fortune of spending the weekend with two of the highest ranked Daito-ryu teachers now living in the US. Our conversations regarding Hakko-ryu and Daito-ryu have only reinforced my opinion regarding the lack of high level internal “aiki” in Hakko-ryu (previously stated in this thread).

If some in Hakko-ryu exhibit a degree of internal skill (to what degree, by the way), it is quite possible that these skills were developed outside of Hakko-ryu. Most in the art came to Hakko-ryu with previous experience in other arts, such as Aikido or Karate. This is why, without knowing who these individuals were, or their backgrounds, it’s impossible to determine where they may have acquired such skill. It would be a huge mistake to simply assume it came from Hakko-ryu.

Honestly, I think people are grasping at straws here. It’s really very simple. There are one or two people in Hakko-ryu that, without question, would have been taught this knowledge if it existed, and neither have such skill (that is, “high level internal power”). One in particular, is said to have gone outside of the art after the passing of Shodai Soke Okuyama Ryuho to bring back something that was, in their opinion, "missing" from Hakko-ryu. The results of his efforts may very well have culminated in the training seen here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cjc5UGwUiXI), which I not comment on...

A.J. Bryant

08-10-2010, 06:46

Actually, this one is probably a "better" example (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI6RVLTi9mo)...

Koshu

08-10-2010, 13:57

Andrew --- Care to elaborate via e-mail or PM on the details from the rumor mill regarding paragraph 3 of post #41?

We've established here and offline that there are differing experiences among the various lineages of the art -- even regarding what was apparently taken away from training with the highest-ranked instructors at the hombu. There's no grasping at straws when the official training literature expressly states how to develop and use ki as a martial and healing tool and people in multiple lineages conclusively demonstrate such skills, at a high level (though again, to me the art allows for multiple definitions of aiki as laid out in this thread), to those within as well as outside of the art.

Rasputin

08-10-2010, 15:24

Actually, this one is probably a "better" example (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI6RVLTi9mo)...

A very interesting video. Watching it, I see many techniques that we have in our Heiwashinkai. It resonates pretty strongly with me.

A.J. Bryant

08-10-2010, 17:11

A very interesting video. Watching it, I see many techniques that we have in our Heiwashinkai. It resonates pretty strongly with me.

The standard kotegaeshi, shiho nage, ude osae, etc, demonstrated wasn't what I was referring to.

A.J. Bryant

08-10-2010, 21:45

Honestly Mert, until you’ve received training in the higher level teachings of Hakko-ryu (you're ranked shodan, correct?), you are simply guessing, or relying solely on your teacher’s potential bias without any objectivity, and therefore lack even the basic context to interpret any writings or teachings of the ryu subjectively. Until then, yes, you are grasping at straws...

Rasputin

08-10-2010, 22:26

The standard kotegaeshi, shiho nage, ude osae, etc, demonstrated wasn't what I was referring to.

Me neither. Many of the off-balancing techniques which are being hinted to as being aiki, I guess, have resonance with what we do.

Mekugi

08-10-2010, 22:37

Actually, this one is probably a "better" example (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI6RVLTi9mo)...

This type of training is similar to what I see the Roppokai doing. Interesting.

Honestly Mert, until you’ve received training in the higher level teachings of Hakko-ryu (you're ranked shodan, correct?), you are simply guessing, or relying solely on your teacher’s potential bias without any objectivity, and therefore lack even the basic context to interpret any writings or teachings of the ryu subjectively. Until then, yes, you are grasping at straws...

Oh come on now. This sounds like a cop-out. Isn't that the point of this entire thread- to get to the bottom of this, now here you are playing the "you don't have a high enough rank" line?

Koshu

08-11-2010, 04:51

Andrew --- We’re not going to agree, and that’s fine. But in light of the civility that had characterized this thread, your recent attitude toward me is quite disappointing. Up until now, several of us, not the least being you, worked pretty hard to keep this thread relevant and tolerant of varying opinions. I suggest we continue to do so.

Out of curiosity, which other Hakko-ryu/ha claim that no high-level ai/ki exists in the art? (Given how few people have these skills, I genuinely wouldn’t be surprised if there are others who think what’s presented in the Hakkoryu literature is just metaphor or hyperbole.)

Please invite your sources to directly comment here and provide back-up. To say one’s lineage doesn’t subscribe to the presence of high-level aiki (or similar skills) in Hakkoryu is one thing. To suggest that any presence of such skills in the art is due to people going outside of the art is unfounded.

Meanwhile, since you’ve dismissed my credibility, I’ll respond to your points, in part citing the only public source of official information regarding Hakkoryu training methods and objectives: the mainline hombu’s website.

(Note to readers: Toby’s definition of “aiki”, for the purposes of this post, is temporarily on ice since the material quoted below identifies characteristics that differentiate Hakkoryu internal skills from those of Daito-ryu and aikido.)

. . . until you’ve received training in the higher level teachings of Hakko-ryu . . .
I stated earlier in this thread that higher-level skills come from the nexus of jujutsu and shiatsu, which is explored early and often in my lineage, especially since the dojo (even now) functions as a shiatsu clinic.

What weight do you give to each of the two different aspects of Hakko-ryu, the martial art and the medicine?

Fifty-fifty.

HAKKORYU UNITES MARTIAL ARTS AND ORIENTAL MEDICINE SO AS TO SHOW CLEARLY THAT THEY ARE BUT ONE AND THE SAME
The prominent feature of Hakkoryu Jujutsu is to totally abandon physical power, to relax completely, and then apply techniques to opponents in order to defend oneself. Most other martial arts commonly aim to defeat or destroy an opponent, but Hakkoryu's exponents, while completely relaxed, uses the attacker's force and strikes a vital point on Keiraku to instantly freeze, stop, pin down, and/or control the movement of the opponent.
Note that the above quote plainly states the self-defense protocol Hakkoryu students are expected to ultimately attain; and would anyone consider this jujutsu 101 (outside of the references to kyusho-jutsu, the description could apply to development of Daito-ryu aiki and analogous internal skills from other disciplines)? If the hombu is willing to publicly point out the presence of high-level skills in Hakkoryu that affect the uke in a manner akin to some applications of Daito-ryu aiki, then of course the training materials and oral teachings of a given lineage might expound on how to develop such skills.

I’m open to hearing how the Dentokan and others interpret the above quote, but the bottom line is that it clearly can be (and is by various lineages) interpreted as utilization of high-level ai/ki.

. . . (you're ranked shodan, correct?), you are simply guessing, or relying solely on your teacher’s potential bias without any objectivity . . .
Already debunked, but I’ll continue to comment.

Oh come on now. This sounds like a cop-out. Isn't that the point of this entire thread- to get to the bottom of this, now here you are playing the "you don't have a high enough rank" line?
Well, just when I thought this thread had fostered some interesting follow-ups (on previous comments Toby made about BJJ) that might get some of those who often pick on the elitism that pervades traditional hakama-wearing arts interested in this subject matter, this happens.

My understanding is that Andrew is a rokudan with six years of experience, while I’m a shodan with a shade under 10 years in. This just further underscores how differently our lineages operate.

The Hakkoryu website says it’s OK to wallow in one’s teacher’s bias, as you and I have been both doing since early in this thread.

Most Hakkoryu classes are taught one-on-one, Shihan-to-Deshi. The old concept that it is preferable to train a few hand-selected students well rather than many anonymous students not so well continues. This traditional master-to-disciple relationship allows the Shihan to make immediate comment or correction on a disciple's technique. . . . As with all bugei/budo entities, the teaching approach used in any particular dojo is strongly influenced by the senior Shihan's personal views, strengths, abilities, experiences, training, age, body type, and outlook on combat.
My approach has been more empirical that what you give me credit for. I compared what Gil Adams had to offer against a number of “self defense”-oriented martial arts schools in L.A. County. Self defense was my training objective since L.A.’s not exactly Dorothy’s and Toto’s Kansas, and the combination of techniques and tactics Adams Sensei teaches clearly stood out against those of other schools I checked out. As I stated earlier in this thread, searching for a chi-ball factory was not a factor in my decision. But it didn’t take long for the higher-level skills to draw attention to themselves on the mat and shiatsu table.

. . . and therefore lack even the basic context to interpret any writings or teachings of the ryu subjectively.
After some time in the art, I compared what my lineage teaches against what the mainline hombu states are the objectives of the art: same as I’m doing -- objectively -- on this thread. There was consistency, then as now, which bolstered my confidence in what I was learning. No need for any kind of abstract or subjective interpretation. So yeah, I chose to warmly accept what I was being taught, and how I was being taught, based on a preponderance of evidence that it’s the real deal.

Koshu

08-11-2010, 05:01

Me neither. Many of the off-balancing techniques which are being hinted to as being aiki, I guess, have resonance with what we do.
Hi Dave --- Are you primarily referring to the atemi-waza shown in the video?

Webmaster

08-11-2010, 06:37

My understanding is that Andrew is a rokudan with six years of experience...
:laugh: Nothing like a little rank inflation! :laugh:

Mekugi

08-11-2010, 06:42

Good post Mert.

It took me at least 10 years to get anywhere in Koryu Bujutsu. It's still a long path. Rank doesn't matter, never has, never will. :) That's one of the reasons they kept the warrior class from feuding with farmers. The idea was to keep the farmers, who worked HARD for a living, from handing the warriors their own butts in public. :)

Mekugi

08-11-2010, 06:45

:laugh: Nothing like a little rank inflation! :laugh:

I wish I could promote up one rank per year. I'd be swimming in paper and fluffy credentials~! Heck just promote me now.....I have the money.:eek:

A.J. Bryant

08-11-2010, 07:35

Mert,

Hakko-ryu is structured like a koryu. The highest teachings of the school are not shown to students until there are initiated into these teachings. There is no cop-out. If you have not been shown these teachings, you do not have the whole picture and are simply speculating. Just like you would be speculating about what is or isn’t in Daito-ryu if you’ve only been taught the Shoden/Hiden Mokuroku... I have given examples in this thread and in email correspondence to you of some of the higher level teachings, such as Roken Senretsu to explain quotes you’ve taken from the hombu website. There is no mystery.

Let me point out clearly that I never once said Hakko-ryu does not contain aiki. In my opinion and experience, it does. However, it does not contain the high level aiki propagated by the Sagawa Dojo, Kodokai and Roppokai lineages, among others. To believe so is wishful thinking in my experience.

As far as rank is concerned, traditional Hakko-ryu rank is based on what you have been shown, just like many koryu schools. Like many in the art, I came to Hakko-ryu (Dentokan) with years of previous Aikido training (beginning in 1991), then a decade more of Kendo and Iaido, along with Aikido. Take a look at Julio Toribio’s website for another example of how rank works in traditional Hakko-ryu. And, I believe we already discussed Gil’s own teacher’s promotion to shihan in just two years at the age of 25. Of course, he trained in Yoshitsune Jujutsu, but was never taught Hakko-ryu by DePasquale, Sr. This isn’t any different than those who come to the art with significant experience in related budo, such as Aikido.

Mert, you know as well as I do that in the old days, everyone traveled to the hombu for just a few weeks to receive Shihan, Kaiden or Sandaikichu training and left with those ranks at the end of their stay. This is no great secret to anyone in Hakko-ryu, or many outside it for that matter. It's not the rank, it's what you've been shown that matters. You cannot comment on what is or isn't in the school if you have not been shown the complete curriculum...

Getting back on topic...

Regarding your current quote from the hombu website regarding the use of keiraku, this is just describing a teaching from Sandaikichu (no, I will not elaborate on this forum)... Have you read Kimura Tatsuo’s book on Sagawa Yukiyoshi yet? He describes high level aiki in Daito-ryu thoroughly and hints at what one needs to do to develop it. This is not in Hakko-ryu. You may also look at the old interview with Irie sensei in the E-Journal of Jujutsu for his answer regarding Daito-ryu aiki in Hakko-ryu/Kokodo Jujutsu.

Hakko-ryu has Roken Senretsu and Shinki Yaku Jo. This is the "aiki" of Hakko-ryu in my experience. Everything I have ever read or been taught in the art regarding “aiki”, ki, the use of keiraku, metsubushi, kuzushi, etc, to control the opponent without strength is linked to these two teachings. These teachings are demonstrated by the mainline of Daito-ryu as their "aiki". In the higher level teachings, you are given specific examples of these concepts, but it is up to the practitioner to develop them fully. Easy to conceptualize, difficult to put into practice. No mysterious ki fields of energy, etc. :wink2:

How’s that?

Rasputin

08-11-2010, 07:45

Hi Dave --- Are you primarily referring to the atemi-waza shown in the video?

I went ahead and watched it again to get a better grasp for commentary. Please excuse the skipping around, time-wise, as I typed these as they came to me.

Many of the "light-touch" knockdowns I recognize as a cooperative exercise between uke and tori, in that uke does his best to maintain his grab or body contact with tori, even if it is only maintaining fingertip contact, and that this leads uke to extend himself out past his center, as in 1:06. At 0:56, uke does his best to maintain the wrist grab while in the compromising position of receiving kote mawashi, and this allows tori to continually keep him from regaining his balance. Later in the video, we see the thumb being bound in this same position, causing additional pain and off-balancing.

At 0:47, uke attempts to maintain the double-hand-grab while tori raises his hands in-between. We do this as part of a technique called the Hand Mirror, or Te Karami. As tori raises his hands, uke's wrists are compromised, and in attempting to maintain his grab his arms become extended, allowing force expressed against the arms to transfer all the way through into uke's shoulders, driving him up and back off-balance with the slightest push.

0:53 I have done this against uke in order to take their balance, although not anticipating them to "take a dive" from the result; more in preparation to something else once the shoulder drops and their balance is broken.

1:18 Open the wrist joint towards their "dead zone" and draw the distal end of the humerous in the same direction, taking them off-balance. I do this from a handshake with a stepping, scooping, "J" motion, but the principle is the same.

1:32 Hard to tell from this small bite, but his entry into shihonage could indeed be the same "Suriname wrist bend" that we sometimes use.

2:05 playing around with kote gaeshi from a lapel grab, manipulating uke's grip and balance to perform the technique without removing their hand. Using his body as a fulcrum to transfer more leverage to the wrist instead of trying to pluck it off. I do this.

2:45 It is impossible to tell for sure due to the angle, but it appears that tori is placing pressure against the top of uke's sternum. I would LIKE to think he is right there at the sternal notch, which is my favorite place to apply just a little pressure to get the same result that tori gets here, having uke dive backwards as fast as possible to get on the floor and away from the pressure.

3:28 seems like a reasonable exercise to offbalance uke. We don't do this specific exercise, but I see what he is doing in some of our responses to grabs.

I am not mentioning the obvious parallells in the gyaku kote gaeshi and other mainstream techniques...

5:25 pretty straightforward although subtle at times. Shifting of one's weight and extension of uke.

We have been doing more Judo lately due to local tournament prep, but this is some of the stuff I enjoy playing with.

Mekugi

08-11-2010, 07:53

Mert,

Hakko-ryu is structured like a koryu.

But it's not. End of story. Oh, and you would know *how"...just fill me in, real quick like.

The highest teachings of the school are not shown to students until there are initiated into these teachings.
And you can tell that how? You've been sandbagged, so this surely applies to you, not Mert.

There is no cop-out.

See above.

If you have not been shown these teachings, you do not have the whole picture and are simply speculating.

Again, you can tell *how*?

Just like you would be speculating about what is or isn’t in Daito-ryu if you’ve only been taught the Shoden/Hiden Mokuroku...

Or whether something is or is not Hakuho ryu, perhaps?

If you want to talk Koryu Bujutsu then don't mix your apples and oranges in this or we'll make you a nice smoothie. MMMM delicious.

A.J. Bryant

08-11-2010, 07:55

Mekugi

08-11-2010, 08:43

Gentlemen,

As I sated in my last post. I came to Dentokan Jujutsu (Hakko-ryu) after many years of Aikido and a decade of traditional Japanese swordsmanship. Joe Miller, Gil Adam's teacher recived Shihan in 2 years, with 9 years of a related jujutsu style (Yoshitsune Jujutsu). Julio Toribio received his Shihan in just 8 years with significant Aikido experience. Rank is only significant in the organization/art that granted it. It's worthless to try to compare it to others' standards.

Are you kidding me? You have the audacity to talk a higher understanding about Hakko ryu, then segue into how it's like Koryu Bujutsu, then turn and bounce about on how sandbagging is acceptable. I know that someone with your limited experience may have talked themselves into this line if thinking but it's time to step away from the kiddy table, throw down the juice-box and face up to the holed cloth that is represented in your line of thinking. I have the most important concept/lesson in your martial path right here. Pay attention now because only someone with your proclaimed experience will be able to understand what I am about to lay on you. Ready? Here it is:

恭謙 (http://jisho.org/words?jap=%E6%81%AD%E8%AC%99&eng=&dict=edict)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
(I put the wrong kanji up above earlier, stupid iphone spelling auto correct.)

A.J. Bryant

08-11-2010, 09:14

Russ,

I'm sorry, I did not say Hakko-ryu was a koryu, I said it was structured like a koryu, i.e., the curriculum is structured like a koryu art.

It's possible that some teachers are fairly open with the higher level teachings of Hakko-ryu, but this is not traditional. Before the founder died and people broke away, you could only learn the higher level teachings by traveling to the hombu. Revealing these to students before then meant hamon.

I know Mert has not been shown these teachings because he told me. I believe it's on the first page of this thread.

Again, I'm sorry, I'm not following you regarding mixing apples with oranges. All I said was that Hakko-ryu is structured like a koryu. I'm sure you would agree that it would not be possible for anyone to speak with any dgeree of authority on the inner teachings of any art without being initiated to them, be it Daito-ryu, Hakuho-ryu, Shinto Muso-ryu, or otherwise.

Again, just so we are clear, Hakko-ryu is [B]not[B] a koryu. It is [B]structured[B] like a koryu. You are only shown that portion of the curriculum that you have been initiated into. I never said otherwise.

Mekugi

08-11-2010, 09:37

Russ,

I'm sorry, I did not say Hakko-ryu was a koryu, I said it was structured like a koryu, i.e., the curriculum is structured like a koryu art.

Nor have I referenced anywhere that you did say such a thing. Please re-read this:

Are you kidding me? You have the audacity to talk a higher understanding about Hakko ryu, then segue into how it's like Koryu Bujutsu, then turn and bounce about on how sandbagging is acceptable.

You're missing the point, or ignoring it hoping I'll forget. Perhaps trying to redirect it?

Let me make this as clear as an azure sky:

If you are going to proclaim that 6 years inside a ryuha is sufficient enough for you to speak readily on the subject of oku and hiden and thereafter use your rank as a shield then there is no reason for you to be confused at all by what I am saying or how what you are implying it is utterly outrageous.

Furthermore, there is a little more to it than just being exposed ("initiated") to oku, hiden, et al (old school), so you can stop right there. There is a key ingredient within: You have to (should) be proficient enough in the school in order to be shown them. Let me make that clearer: you have to put in the time. The sandbagging and the apologetics that you are associating with your apparent lack of experience doesn't fly with me nor does your inflated rank give you ANY type of authority to write such condescending drivel towards someone who is technically your senior. As a matter of fact, the Japanese tradition of giving out a sandbagged rank (usually to other members of other schools) without any real training or experience has a word: "meiyoshoku" (also called meiyo).

OOHHH yeah, then there's this:

Rank is only significant in the organization/art that granted it. It's worthless to try to compare it to others' standards.
I'm willing to take that comment a step further and say that you should perhaps take some of your own advice.
Don't compare Mert's teacher's standards to yours. You are NOT his SEMPAI regardless of your "rank" so knock it off. Yeah, that stuff matters, that is if you are doing a Japanese martial art- regardless of who's teacher is who's. That is basic Budo Reiho (remember the limited experience comment I made. Does that make sense now?)

Here's a juice box, run along now and come back when you're done. I'll wait. :)

Toby Threadgill

08-11-2010, 23:57

deleted...

Mekugi

08-12-2010, 01:05

I apologize,

I have made the thread spout a death rattle and I think I've killed it.

Sorry about that.

-Russ

Tripitaka of AA

08-12-2010, 01:29

Ummm, hopefully just a slight pause in proceedings. It has been a fine thread and it would be better to see more.

Koshu

08-12-2010, 01:40

I apologize,

I have made the thread spout a death rattle and I think I've killed it.

Sorry about that.
It's late in the lower 48. Maybe Toby and others thought the better of it for now and got some shut-eye.

I still have follow-ups in the queue for Andrew and Dave W.; and, oh yeah, still plan get back to the original crux of the thread.

Ummm, hopefully just a slight pause in proceedings. It has been a fine thread and it would be better to see more.
David --- Anything to add from a Shorinji Kempo perspective?

Koshu

08-12-2010, 02:10

Andrew --- What Russ said. Since you keep waving around lofty rank and pieces of paper, let’s revisit this:

The highest teachings of the school are not shown to students until there are initiated into these teachings. There is no cop-out. If you have not been shown these teachings, you do not have the whole picture and are simply speculating. . . . It's not the rank, it's what you've been shown that matters. You cannot comment on what is or isn't in the school if you have not been shown the complete curriculum. . . . Revealing these to students before then meant hamon. I know Mert has not been shown these teachings because he told me. I believe it's on the first page of this thread.
So earlier in the thread you made references to no-touch technique in my lineage that many in my dojo have observed and experienced (not to mention anything and everything that leads up to that), so what exactly is left to be shown? Is there some kind of kabenuke technique as is alleged to exist in Daito-ryu (how cool would that be!)?

If you remain adamant that being “shown” = purple-belt paper, then OK, what do you think is going to happen once I’m finally, formally, privy to set eyes upon these hallowed “teachings”? Is Adams Sensei going to say, “You know, all of this shihan-level stuff has absolutely nothing to do with the internal skills I’ve been demonstrating and using in the jujutsu and shiatsu, and encouraging you to develop for yourself, all this time.”??

Now let’s file this away:

. . . I believe we already discussed Gil’s own teacher’s promotion to shihan in just two years at the age of 25. Of course, he trained in Yoshitsune Jujutsu, but was never taught Hakko-ryu by DePasquale, Sr. This isn’t any different than those who come to the art with significant experience in related budo, such as Aikido.
There’s a key difference as I pointed out offline: Junji Saito, a Hakkoryu shihan, created and was teaching Yoshitsune Ju-Jitsu prior to Miller Sensei going to Japan. YJJ at that time would have been arguably far more similar to Hakkoryu than BJJ is to judo today. So what Miller Sensei learned were effectively Hakkoryu henka that were imbued with the principles of the parent art -- taught to him by two Hakkoryu men over the course of almost a decade. Hardly the same as coming from any other art.

Do we really need to spell out what Russ is trying to say, based on very credible documentation and first-hand exposure to the art in its native habitat, about why it’s pointless to continue debating the speed at which rank is obtained from one art to another, from one point in time to some time later, or can we just let post #49 and Russ' subsequent comments stand as the reality check?

I've opted not to post the rest of what I wrote in my draft since all of the key points in this lineage skirmish have been addressed. Let's hope it stays that way.

Koshu

08-12-2010, 03:17

OK, so back to the crux of this thread, which assumes (even taking into consideration Ellis’ opening post) that some kind of sublime internal power is attainable in Hakkoryu. Anyone who doesn't subscribe to that, please feel free to ignore this and any future related posts.

I won’t discount the possibility (reality?), as Andrew has stated, that high-ranking Hakkoryu practitioners have sought methods to attain internal skills from outside sources. After all, the nidai soke told Stanley Pranin that Daito-ryu practitioners migrate to Hakkoryu, so why not vice versa?

But, if sitting or standing up straight, waxing nostalgic about one’s hara, and mentally shooting daggers at the uke’s meridians were all it took to achieve high-level ai/ki in Hakkoryu, then wouldn’t the Dillman Karate folks be in a run for their money?! Instead even though high-level Hakkoryu ai/ki is not completely the same as high-level Daito-ryu aiki, something must have to fundamentally change within the body of a student through years/decades of solo and paired practice to allow the skills to become noticeable, let alone practical. The key question that I had at the beginning of this thread was to what degree are such changes, the methods producing them, and the resulting skills synonymous with those of Daito-ryu (or the Chinese internal martial arts)? Again, taking out references to manipulation of meridians and pressure/vital points, Hakkoryu literature mentions top-to-bottom alignment of the body, total relaxation and eschewing use of muscle, dropping/applying weight, settling and utilization of the hara, and focusing spirit/ki -- all of these tied, within the literature and via oral transmission of my lineage, to the training described in post #33).

When I was younger in the art, I spent a lot of time most days working solo on these basics, but once I felt comfortable that I had incorporated them at a level adequate for executing the omote waza, I continued to keep them in the forefront of my mind, but quit doing them as discreet practice. So, once this thread started and I conferred with my teacher, he stated that he continues to remind students to work on these basics because they need to be, duh, discreetly practiced -- ongoing (like the Hakkoryu literature, he was meant to be taken literally) -- to develop a baseline level of (Daito-ryu-like) aiki skills that help underpin delivery of ki, not to mention the ability to apply ki itself. So apparently I haven’t been as good a student as I thought I was: seriously, this thread has opened up my eyes to the reality that I and my sempai have been content to learn Hakkoryu on a curve. Not to say I’m at square one, but rather I feel like a rank beginner regarding earnest pursuit of internal skills in my art. (What did Russ say earlier about “taking 10 years to get anywhere”? Well, I have a few months to say I’ve gotten somewhere before the decade is over.)

Adams Sensei further indicated that the degree to which aiki vs. ki is used, and in what collective amounts, depends on the situation at hand. I don’t know if other Hakko-ryu/ha shihan who subscribe to the existence of high-level ai/ki being in the art would agree with this characterization of those skills, but it perhaps makes sense given different impressions of how these skills have felt to those willing to comment on them here.

Certainly there may be those in Hakko-ryu/ha reading this thread that will scoff at the idea that it’s necessary to do extensive tanren to achieve high-level ai/ki, and that simply doing waza and shiatsu (in varying proportions) is enough. That’s fine. I really hope others from lineages outside of mine and Andrew’s will drop by to comment. To further illustrate this, I don’t recall reading anything about the Roppokai utilizing tanren, yet there folks other than Seigo Okamoto in that lineage of Daito-ryu who are acknowledged to have noteworthy aiki skills. Maybe it comes down to the degree to which someone is a “natural” as it is with other aspects of martial arts and other forms of physical skill. For me, since I no longer have ready access to my dojo and I’m not a natural, we’ll see where the tanren leads.

To further help delineate the differences and similarities between Hakkoryu’s and other art’s internal training: anyone care/dare to comment on whether or not Daito-ryu tanren / in-yo-ho, or the solo training in TSYR, other koryu, taijiquan, xingyiquan or baguazhang include techniques in seiza, for example (I read somewhere online that some Chinese arts have “seated”/ “sitting” solo-training postures, but haven’t found photos or video of those)?

Tripitaka of AA

08-12-2010, 09:06

David --- Anything to add from a Shorinji Kempo perspective?

My comment on the thread was as an interested reader (of lots of stuff), but I don't think I have the background to really make useful contributions on behalf of the only Art I ever trained in. My experience is too short and exposure too limited to really know which aspects of the Shorinji Kempo training may have similarities/relevance to the matters being discussed here. I have a few ideas of clips to link to, of high-level practictioners doing "stuff" that may fit the bill, but I need to dig out the old threads where people smarter than me posted them first :). I'm happy to see threads where smart people post smart stuff, which is why I had been enjoying this one... and why I have managed to avoid soiling it with my uninformed twaddle.

Please continue :bow:

Toby Threadgill

08-12-2010, 11:44

To further help delineate the differences and similarities between Hakkoryu’s and other art’s internal training: anyone care/dare to comment on whether or not Daito-ryu tanren / in-yo-ho, or the solo training in TSYR, other koryu, taijiquan, xingyiquan or baguazhang include techniques in seiza, for example (I read somewhere online that some Chinese arts have “seated”/ “sitting” solo-training postures, but haven’t found photos or video of those)?

Hello,

I can only speak for Daito ryu/Sagawa den Tanren ho and TSYR which both include seated internal training, although not exclusively from seiza.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

Koshu

08-12-2010, 12:59

Thank you Toby.

Not surprising based on what's been explored above.

Mekugi

08-12-2010, 13:02

Hello,

I can only speak for Daito ryu/Sagawa den Tanren ho and TSYR which both include seated internal training, although not exclusively from seiza.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

They start out seated, then move to standing?

Koshu

08-12-2010, 13:04

At 0:47, uke attempts to maintain the double-hand-grab while tori raises his hands in-between. We do this as part of a technique called the Hand Mirror, or Te Karami. As tori raises his hands, uke's wrists are compromised, and in attempting to maintain his grab his arms become extended, allowing force expressed against the arms to transfer all the way through into uke's shoulders, driving him up and back off-balance with the slightest push.
This is the set-up for Hakkoryu’s Tekagami as well, in addition to that of several other kihon waza (via Daito-ryu), and provides the fundamental test for the efficiency/quality of technique (in either jujutsu or aiki-jujutsu modes). Andrew and I discussed this earlier in the thread.

1:32 Hard to tell from this small bite, but his entry into shihonage could indeed be the same "Suriname wrist bend" that we sometimes use.
This is the same set-up first introduced in Hakkoryu shodan-gi in a technique called Yoko Katate Osae Dori and carried up the waza board (the wrist bind is fundamental to many of the shodan waza). Dave, you may remember this technique as it was demonstrated by Jack Garrett during the benefit for his dojo a few years ago in Arkansas. This video shows the wrist bind close up and performed slowly so it should be straightforward to compare it to the technique you mentioned above.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBDk0Hyr5nQ

2:45 It is impossible to tell for sure due to the angle, but it appears that tori is placing pressure against the top of uke's sternum. I would LIKE to think he is right there at the sternal notch, which is my favorite place to apply just a little pressure to get the same result that tori gets here, having uke dive backwards as fast as possible to get on the floor and away from the pressure.
Yes, using the notch is the practical approach. The point of contact appears to be lower on the sternum in this demo, where some Hakkoryu waza deliver atemi (typically ippon-ken, but in this case it looks like a cooperative demo to test use of one extended finger).

5:25 pretty straightforward although subtle at times. Shifting of one's weight and extension of uke.
Aiki-bunny sumi-otoshi! :cool:

(segue to . . .)

We have been doing more Judo lately due to local tournament prep, but this is some of the stuff I enjoy playing with.

Well, I understand from what I’ve read in this forum and from Skip Koepke that your school’s known for taking a very comprehensive approach to jujutsu. Nice observations Dave. I think what a lot of people don’t appreciate is the degree to which these more subtle things initially explored in cooperative training can produce incremental (sometimes infinitesimal), but decisive advantages (the beauty of the tactical “non-mystical” aiki championed by Andrew, which -- to repeat -- is just as vital in Hakkoryu as the high-level stuff) when free flow and resistance are added in.

Best of luck at the tournament!

Rasputin

08-12-2010, 15:04

This video shows the wrist bind close up and performed slowly so it should be straightforward to compare it to the technique you mentioned above.

Yep, that's the one.

Yes, using the notch is the practical approach. The point of contact appears to be lower on the sternum in this demo, where some Hakkoryu waza deliver atemi (typically ippon-ken, but in this case it looks like a cooperative demo to test use of one extended finger).

Yes, it occurred to me that it did seem to be below the notch, which seems like an odd place to apply atemi. You have such good targets just an inch above or 6 inches below--why apply force to the best-armored part of the chest? Could it have started as a sort of safety issue; get used to placing pressure there in the dojo so you can practice your strike without disabling uke and then modify against an agressor? Kind of like shuto to uke's inner thigh instead of the groin?

Best of luck at the tournament!

Thanks, this one is mostly a practice shiai, to give the 13+ a taste of competition and get to play with gi-and-no-gi Judo. One thing I am noticing lately is that the bumps, bruises, and sometimes more permanent injuries that we have seen happen in class tend to come during Judo practice. It isn't an ukemi problem--those times I am directly viewing the situation it looks like reasonable ukemi was taken, but just sort of a $hit happens. Twisted ankles, broken toes, banged knees, dislocated/sprained shoulders, bruised sternum, rattled brains. It's a tough hobby. Oh well. I don't want to derail the thread.

Koshu

08-12-2010, 17:21

Yes, it occurred to me that it did seem to be below the notch, which seems like an odd place to apply atemi. You have such good targets just an inch above or 6 inches below--why apply force to the best-armored part of the chest? Could it have started as a sort of safety issue; get used to placing pressure there in the dojo so you can practice your strike without disabling uke and then modify against an agressor? Kind of like shuto to uke's inner thigh instead of the groin?
The mid-sternum (typically CV-17 (http://www.warriorpages.com/anatomyqigong/pressurepoints/ConceptionVessel.html#CV17)) is a specific target in Hakkoryu and other arts that seek to exploit the body using knowledge of traditional Asian medicine.

One thing I am noticing lately is that the bumps, bruises, and sometimes more permanent injuries that we have seen happen in class tend to come during Judo practice. It isn't an ukemi problem--those times I am directly viewing the situation it looks like reasonable ukemi was taken, but just sort of a $hit happens. Twisted ankles, broken toes, banged knees, dislocated/sprained shoulders, bruised sternum, rattled brains. It's a tough hobby. Oh well. I don't want to derail the thread.
Ah, the pros and cons of "aliveness"!

De-rail? Hardly! The collateral effects of hard training are one of the reasons I've passionately remained in a system that focuses on shiatsu (including bonesetting). It can't fix everything, but there are protocols for most of the common tweaks people get in the dojo. And, as Andrew pointed out awhile back in this thread, our dojo is fond of judo as oyo-waza.

Mekugi

08-12-2010, 20:58

Koshu

08-12-2010, 21:22

What about the use of the scapula instead of the use of the hand for generating the movement of a technique?? I mean, I have seen a lot of techniques performed using no arm strength (a gummy arm, so to speak), but rather using the "strength" of the shoulder and shoulder-blades....does that make sense? Is this a common element here? Also, closing the armpit (waki-shime)....does that come into play?
Russ --- In those techniques, is the hand gummy along with the rest of the arm? If not, how do the hand and shoulder relate to one another and the rest of the body (hara, overall "frame", or otherwise)?

Mekugi

08-13-2010, 04:57

Russ --- In those techniques, is the hand gummy along with the rest of the arm? If not, how do the hand and shoulder relate to one another and the rest of the body (hara, overall "frame", or otherwise)?
Yeah, the hand is "gummy" and relaxed with absolutely no sign of aggression so to speak. All the strength is generated from the scapula. Most of the time, unless the arm is raised by the scapula, the power is generated from the "do" (body) with a slight bend that keeps the armpit closed.

Tripitaka of AA

08-13-2010, 06:53

Nope, lost me on "gummy arm". Do you have a clip to illustrate, or could you run that description by me one more time... sloooooowly. :)

giles

08-13-2010, 10:53

What about the use of the scapula instead of the use of the hand for generating the movement of a technique??
<snip>
Also, closing the armpit (waki-shime)....does that come into play?

Not sure if I'm missing some context here, but yes, sandan gi mochi mawari springs to mind as a good example of scapula instead of hand strength.

Closing the arm pit also featured heavily with some teachers. Others had a different didactic approach.

Edit: Given the heat earlier I'd better mention that I'm another Dentokan guy.

Koshu

08-13-2010, 13:00

FYI, for non-Hakko-ryu/ha folks:

Mochi Mawari = http://www.jiu-jitsu.at/kote-hineri.jpg (though in Hakkoryu the index finger would be more extended and the pinky leading the grip, and in my lineage anyway, the hand, wrist and forearm aligned vertically straight up and down).

Given the heat earlier I'd better mention that I'm another Dentokan guy.
For the record, Dentokan folks, including Roy Hobbs, have been gracious contributors to this forum regarding Hakkoryu, this latest strangeness not withstanding (and even then, some good information was amicably exchanged earlier in the thread). In that spirit:

Not sure if I'm missing some context here, but yes, sandan gi mochi mawari springs to mind as a good example of scapula instead of hand strength.

Hi Giles --- Hopefully Russ will return with the corollary to his earlier description. In the meantime, in your lineage, how do you link the pinky to the scapula (in general, we link everything from the pinky to the hara, and don't focus too much on what else in the anatomy naturally engages in between)?

Koshu

08-13-2010, 13:29

Yeah, the hand is "gummy" and relaxed with absolutely no sign of aggression so to speak. All the strength is generated from the scapula. Most of the time, unless the arm is raised by the scapula, the power is generated from the "do" (body) with a slight bend that keeps the armpit closed.
Hi Russ --- Can you further explain the "slight bend"?

Here's an example of a Hakkoryu waza that incorporates the mochi-mawari (in most lineages I've encountered, the term refers to both the wrist lock and various waza incorporating the lock). In general, Hakkoryu does not use a "gummy" hand (attention, but not tension, is always present in the hand), but at least momentarily in various techniques and waza, the hand does fully relax and release form, such as for the metsubushi-ate that is delivered at the beginning of this waza.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXk5yq-gu8M

Rasputin

08-13-2010, 14:28

Mochi Mawari = http://www.jiu-jitsu.at/kote-hineri.jpg (though in Hakkoryu the index finger would be more extended and the pinky leading the grip, and in my lineage anyway, the hand, wrist and forearm aligned vertically straight up and down).

Kote Hineri AKA Sankyo AKA Sankajo. We call it the former, and we make the same adjustments that you mention.

Koshu

08-13-2010, 14:56

On a new thread Ellis started (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?28157-Years-to-learn-koryu-years-to-get-initiation.), he makes the following caveat:

Here's what I'm not opening up this thread to discuss.
1. If Hakko-ryu has deep, inner teachings.
2. The legitimacy or strength the respective lines of Hakko-ryu, which apparently rank to different levels at different paces.
3. What A.J. Bryant or Mert Gambito should or should not be posting about their respective training. That's for that other thread.

Because item #3 may be on people's minds, here's a little historical clarification.

Unlike Daito-ryu where the various main branches began their differentiation earlier than Hakkoryu and its offshoots (Sokaku Takeda passed away over 40 years prior to Ryuho Okuyama), there's still a sense that the various Hakko-ryu/ha are still preserving the original system, which was fully codified under Okuyama whereas Daito-ryu's syllabus was much more up to interpretation and personal experiences among high-ranking students even while Takeda was alive. As a result, there have been mostly amicable attempts to compare syllabi elements of specific techniques and general interpretations over the years to further the integrity of this group preservation effort. The open exchange online, by phone and in person (there have been events attended by multiple ryuha over the years) has been important toward that end.

However, the transgressions on this thread suggest that perhaps it's time to acknowledge we're now where Daito-ryu has been, despite most of the ryuha's waza boards still bearing close resemblance to each others'.

Jose Garrido

09-03-2010, 20:31

Koshu, I really like your statement. Well said!!

Jose Garrido

Koshu

09-06-2010, 17:59

Thanks Jose.

Hope all's well. Please see the PM I sent you.

Koshu

09-24-2010, 17:01

Earlier in this thread, Andrew Bryant pointed to a couple references that I agree (now that I have a copy of What is Aiki?) are important references for understanding aiki as it’s implemented in Hakkoryu.

In a nutshell, the aiki-jujutsu techniques presented in What is Aiki? typically employ sen-no-sen inducing kuzushi from the get-go. As previously discussed in this thread, this type of tactical aiki is important in Hakkoryu, and could be seen as vital to “sophisticated” interpretations of jujutsu in general.

In the Winter 2007 issue of E-Journal of Jujutsu, Irie Yasuhiro, shodai soke of KoKoDo Jujutsu (http://www.kokodo-jujutsu.com/site3/modules.php?name=Staff), states that to him budo must include both jujutsu and shiatsu / sappo and kappo (i.e. ways to kill as well as heal). Given this clarification of his art’s foundation, which is in keeping with that of mainline Hakkoryu, it’s not surprising that he goes on to say that from what he’s read and seen of Daito-ryu, he can’t see the “essence” of his martial art in Daito-ryu. He later provides a qualifying statement that aiki, as implemented in aikido and aiki-jujutsu, is utilized in KoKoDo, however, “whenever we cannot use aiki, we have this certain technique” that results in neutralization of the uke and kuzushi, and that “it’s possible to... [make it] look like aiki.”

Based on my few experiences training with Yasuhiro Sensei (who my teacher credits one of his significant influences) as well as the training in my primary lineage, the above statement rings true for me -- whether “aiki” is interpreted as tactics, internal body skills, or both.

All of this is just an(other) admonition to never be satisfied, but rather to remain zealously open minded about exploring one's art: to dig deep within it and constantly seek something more from one’s self through it. Cliff Brunetti, who has reportedly trained with Japanese and American shihan issued the highest rank in Hakkoryu by the founder, waxes on his dojo's website about revelations he received about the first waza taught in Hakkoryu (and the art overall) during his initial visit to the Hakkoryu hombu (http://brunettidojo.web.officelive.com/HombuVisit.aspx).

giles

09-27-2010, 14:44

Cliff Brunetti, [...] waxes on his dojo's website about revelations he received about the first waza taught in Hakkoryu (and the art overall) during his initial visit to the Hakkoryu hombu (http://brunettidojo.web.officelive.com/HombuVisit.aspx).

That "too strong" admonishment seems to be the recurring theme. I had a similar experience when, as a fresh dan grade, I turned up at the Daiwa Ryu dojo. Also had a bemused session one evening when Harada sensei made himself too heavy to lift from behind. I'm a physicist - you can't do that, even if I'd just experienced it. I worked it out a few weeks later: it turned out (or so I currently think) to be a subtle posture take.

So when does good body mechanics become aiki? I think that's a rhetorical question, but feel free to answer anyway!

Mekugi

09-28-2010, 11:13

So when does good body mechanics become aiki? I think that's a rhetorical question, but feel free to answer anyway!

Exactly. Good mechanics are "aiki". Playing them off like magic is foolish.
I had a certain "aiki" oriented person try something similar on me down here in Aichi when I first came by. His head came up to my shoulders, I simply dwarfed him. I dunno what he was thinking, either I was foolish or just fell off the boat or something, but he was demonstrating the "awesome power" of "ki" where students were asked to pick him up but could not. So I watched for a but and then he asked me to pick him up "The same way" (by his elbows). Before he could do anything I simply dropped, wrapped my arms around his waist and hoisted him into the air and then onto my side like I was carrying a surfboard. He was more than a little ticked off. I never went back......I doubt I was welcome.

Rasputin

09-28-2010, 12:11

Good thing you didn't try picking him up by his elbows, or it'd be your a$$.

Mekugi

09-28-2010, 12:44

Good thing you didn't try picking him up by his elbows, or it'd be your a$$.

Haahaa! That's the truth.
"Why tug on the leaves of a weed when you can pull it out by the root?", I say. Not very nice of me, although he did ask me to pick him up after all, just not that way...

Koshu

09-28-2010, 13:13

Mekugi-Dori --> Note how the tori scans for other possible attackers instead of just fixating on the foiled elder master of ki:

http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/55859640.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF878921F7C3FC3F69D929FD7AF2F63B6757133E 061ACC30D783D8A492B26D1FB01C2018B01E70F2B3269972

Aiki is clearly a combination of superior/efficient tactics (psychological as well as physical) and body mechanics in varying degrees depending on one's interpretation. (I like how Russ did not choose to "play the game" with the demonstrator, as an example of tactics.)

Giles --- As for the "too strong" admonishment, a number of people of people I've spoken with since this thread got underway say they appreciate the nudge to not take for granted the basics in the art: i.e. the "entry level" kihon waza and the information in the Hakkoryu literature and oral teachings pertaining to kamae, breathing, ma'ai and mental focus for example.

Most practitioners treat Hakko-Dori as something perfunctory they have to do to graduate past the indignity of wearing a white belt, and maintain the same "been there done that" attitude about it that Cliff Brunetti says he held upon first setting foot in the hombu as a relatively seasoned practitioner (presumably as a nidan). So if following this thread inspires some folks to seek what allowed the nidai soke to not just get free of Cliff's grasp, but use it as kaeshi-waza, then great: it will profoundly improve the quality of their training and ability. Otherwise, all the time spent doing waza is just (really arcane) choreography.