Silat vodoo

[aiki craig]

:D My partner is Indonesian and when i talk about the Silat MA there seems to be fear in her replies. The Indonesion people are very spiritual and the stories she and her family talk about are bordering on the supernatural. There are stories of Gurus` breaking rocks with only a kiai or stabbing themselves and living etc. Has anyone seen pencat silat demos in Indonesia and seen some spooky stuff.:eek:

[Jeff Burger]

Even Muay Thai had voodoo...
Part of the Wai Kru (respect to teachers dance) involved casting a spell to make you strong and make your opponent weak.
Also shirts with magical symbols were worn and the Monkol (head band) was supposed to be scrolled up blessing and spells.
If you look at older Muay Thai pics you may see alot fo magical symbol tatoos....some still get them.

All cultures have used magic or mystical myths to install fear.

Jeff

[aiki craig]

Cheers Jeff. You are right. Even in Aikido, O Sensei performed feats that no one could explain.

Craig

[John Bennett]

East Texas rural people are more spiritual than Indonesians. I've seen some really spooky voodoo in the religious ceremonies here.

BTW, O'Sensei's feats are not difficult to explain.

[Jeff Burger]

Isnt there a story about O Sensei that goes something like...
he asked his students to try to sneak up / attack on him and one time they had him surrounded and he was sudddenly at the top of the stairs or something.

I can do that unbendable arm stuff. I try it going the other way against armbars too...with only some success.
I can do unbendable wrist with stuff like goose neck come alongs too...Fightgrl knows how to beat it though.

Lam (50s) and Huang (80s)could do it with alot of locks I put them in...even chokes.

Neat trick...not something Im going to try in a fight any time soon.

I have seen alot of Chi Gung "tricks" in China. Cant explain alot of them. I say tricks cause I think most of these people are charlatans trying to make money.
Would love to know how they did some them though.
I see David Copperfiled do some neat stuff too...I dont believe it just cause I dont know they trick.

Belief is an amazing tool.

Jeff

[aiki craig]

Hi Jeff,
You are correct about the story of O`Sensei, but Morihei Ueshiba didn`t like being able to do things as you described because he felt it shortened his life by quite a bit. Being formerly under Koichi Tohei of Ki Society, we did many Ki tests such as unbendable arm etc and became very good, but only because we were doing tests over and over. Tohei is still the undisputed leader in teaching Ki that is still alive today.;)

Happy to hear you all
Craig
Aikido Yuishinkai

[dingodog1]

When you were referring to Voodoo,you were referring to the spiritual,mystical or magical aspects of the arts of the Indonesian region. There have recently been several shows on National Geographic channel were they spotlight the various beliefs that resemble Voodoo/Hoodoo in the Phillipines, Indonesia and other islands in that region. It is interesting, though I didn't see anything relating to martial connections. I am aware of the connections though from several Muay Thai books I own.

[kenkyusha]

Hi Jeff,
snip
Being formerly under Koichi Tohei of Ki Society, we did many Ki tests such as unbendable arm etc and became very good, but only because we were doing tests over and over.
snip

Happy to hear you all
Craig
Aikido Yuishinkai
Rant
Sorry to be a pain in the rear, but there is nothing mystical about this or 95% of the other stuff that Ueshiba sensei did for public demonstration. Combine a of knowledge of physiology and physics, wave your arms about, and people think it's something else.

An interesting side-note, M. Ueshiba was born at a time when, due to the social and political changes, most koryu lost their sources of funding. Many came-up with ways of 'demonstrating' the benefits of training with 'tricks' ala carney strongmen, or fakirs. Looked good, and got people in the door, but has nothing to do with martial prowess (which is why other schools started to engage in public exhibitions of the sort that laid the groundwork [no pun intended] for Kodokan Judo). /Rant

Be well,
Jigme

[GodofGamblers]

I have seen many. She is referring to "Debus". These guys are like circus geeks and wander around doing 'shows' for anyone who will watch them. They slice themselves with knives but sustain no injuries; they eat glass and stab themselves. I think it's a trick. However, it's a good trick; i've seen them up close and don't know how they do it.

Indonesians believe in magic, and magic and the MA are intertwined.

[Abbax8]

In Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts by Draegger and Smith, in the photo plates in front of the book is a Pencak Silat picture of a person in an induced trance doing the "Monkey Dance" holding a knife which I believe is a kris. The kris itself is believed to have magical powers.Very similar to the induced state you see in voodoo dances. I'll try to find my copy, I'm going on memory here.

Peace

Dennis

[GodofGamblers]

Yes, the keris holds the power of the practicioner and allows him to accomplish certain feats. Some keris are very very expensive. It is an art form to make them.

[dingodog1]

I believe ... we don't know everything. I choose to believe in magic in all it's incarnations and the possibilities due to magical things occurring daily.

*lays gun on table and pulls down pants to receive magical tattoo.*

[dingodog1]

Hunh? Oh. The tattoo on my rump is to be a charm to prevent me having my *** kicked.

The gun? It's to make sure all I receive on my behind is a tattoo!

[GodofGamblers]

But I ask you: if you went to a place where everyone believed in magic, would it exist: yes or no.

[dingodog1]

I would say, "perception drives reality", so yes, it would.

[GodofGamblers]

exactly. so yes, everyone believes in magic in indonesia. people die because a "death spell" has been put over them.

however, to "learn" these skills and go to NY or somewhere and do them would be impossible. if you don't believe they don't work.

still, that doesn't mean they're not real. people heal themselves and are healed by "dukun", shaman. no one can say that the healing didn't happen.

[Lai...]

the topic is about voo doo in silat, silat it self (in some styles) si a way to improve yourself both spiritual and mental. i my self had live in the 'nusantara' for quite some time... and i had seen the impossible done by the master or guru`s of silat. actually (according to my own opinion and others..) This ability can be divided into 2 categories, the 1st is one very simple, it is all about mind over matter.. as seen in many arts, the ability to break objects depend on your determination and your strengh. the other one is pure about how much faith you have in something that you worship, what i mean is through the help of unknow forces such as ginnies, demon or to some to others, their family guardian or ancestors. but some do belief that faith to god is most powerfull ability that is the hardest to gain. this is maybe because people always thinks that the good will always win. these are the reason why silat is very different from other martial arts, the fights are not just about whos the best figther, it is also about the war between good and evil.

[DragonMind]

Welcom Lai. You do realize this thread is years old?

[dingodog1]

That's okay isn't it? He's just contributing to the topic; attempting to clarify the issue with his own relevant experiences. I don't see anything peculiar about that.

[AllanJGAnderson]

Rant
Sorry to be a pain in the rear, but there is nothing mystical about this or 95% of the other stuff that Ueshiba sensei did for public demonstration.

Be well,
Jigme



What about that 5%?

[bennyboy]

What about that 5%?

at least 4% suggestion I'd say

althougy I'd be inclined to break it up with as at least as much suggestion as physics.


as to voodoo and silat - this is a place where mysticism is still firmy entrenched, and historical hobbies included collecting peoples heads....well maybe thats not so unusual, but in th west we didn't polish them....
unless they were saints and then we made them holy relics with divine powers....

so err... its the same really, unless you can tell me the difference between divine power, magical power, voodoo, belief and quantum physics...oh and tell me the nature of the tao as well please!

interestin how it all fits together innit?


Ben Ford