Suggested weapons training to complement my Jujitsu?

[jujitsuka]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the forum, currently a 9th kyu Jujitsuka. I love my Jujitsu class and I am looking forward to continuing in the art. I'm wondering if anyone could recommend a weapons system that would complement my open hand training.

I have studied Matayoshi Kobudo and Shindo Muso Ryu Jodo in the past, but they don't seem like the best matches for Jujitsu, and I don't know if they are the best matches for me. My Jujitsu sensei teaches weapons defenses to higher level students, but I would really like to train in a weapons system from the beginning to improve my spatial perception, breath control, focus, and precision. I've really enjoyed my weapons studies in the past. Arts that are currently being taught in the Boston area (Somerville/Cambridge, MA) would be ideal! Thanks for your advice!

Arigato gozaimasu,
Rebecca

[Koshu]

Hi Rebecca, and welcome!


I have studied Matayoshi Kobudo and Shindo Muso Ryu Jodo in the past, but they don't seem like the best matches for Jujitsu . . .
Would you mind describing a bit about your jujutsu style and lineage, maybe provide links to some photos or video as well so we can get a better feel for what your open-hand training entails.

I've practiced a little Shindo Muso-ryu, and found it very compatible with jujutsu (given that both jodo/jutsu and jujutsu would've been considered standard samurai skills, and there are other weapons components of Shindo Muso-ryu that would've also complemented jujutsu). What in particular do you feel didn't mesh with your jujutsu about those two styles? I noticed you posted a similar question on the Filipino Arts section of the forum. While I can't speak for kobudo, I'd think that Filipino martial arts weapon-work would be even more alien than the kobudo (though with enough effort, techniques and concepts could be adapted).


. . . and I don't know if they are the best matches for me.
Perhaps that's the more important consideration. What do you feel you're looking for in weapons training?

[jujitsuka]

Hi Rebecca, and welcome!

Thanks, Koshu! I've been using this forum as a resource for a long time, and I figured it was time to speak up and ask a question of my own.


Would you mind describing a bit about your jujutsu style and lineage, maybe provide links to some photos or video as well so we can get a better feel for what your open-hand training entails.

Sure. I'm learning a gendai system that is closest to American Jujitsu. My sensei teaches scenario-based techniques (e.g. how to counter if an uke has you in a headlock from a full mount, how to escape from a front headlock, etc.). Sensei makes sure we work with everyone in the class, so we can learn how to adjust the moves for people with different body types. For our belt tests, he puts us in the situations we have learned options for countering, and we have to respond. So it is very situation-based, and sensei encourages us to be adaptive and learn to think several moves ahead.


Perhaps that's the more important consideration. What do you feel you're looking for in weapons training?

One thing I might be looking for in a weapons system (although it doesn't have to fit this mold) is a more traditionally-structured class. This is what drew me to Shindo Muso Ryu Jodo. I have studied martial arts with a much stronger sense of etiquette (e.g. Aikido and Kobudo), and I would say my Jujitsu class is the least traditionally-structured I have ever taken. (I meditate and bow before and after class, but none of my classmates do.) So it might be nice to have that element in a weapons system, but, like I said, that is not a requirement.

My main goal is studying an armed fighting style in addition to learning empty-hand techniques is to learn, by wielding an object, how to shift and focus my body weight, find my center, and direct my energy as a martial artist.

So, I thought Jodo would be perfect for all of those things--except there was one problem: I didn't really enjoy practicing it. I really love going to my Jujitsu class, and practicing the techniques at home; and, to really stick with it, I would like to find a weapons system that makes me feel the same way.

I am drawn to the Filipino arts in part because they include a free sparring component after a certain period of study, which is similar to the creative thinking we do in my Jujitsu class. So I thought they might complement my Jujitsu training. Also, my Jujitsu sensei is a Shichidan in Shotokan Karate, be he is not teaching us much about atemi and ukemi (at least right now). And I feel like those are gaps in my training. My understanding about Kali, Arnis, and Escrima is that the strikes you learn with the batton are in turn transposed to empty hand strikes using the same principles, so that would help with the atemi aspect.

I don't know if this helps clarify what I am looking for. I hope it does!

Rebecca

[Koshu]

Thanks for the clarifications, but I still don't have much of an idea of what and from where the style of jujutsu you practice looks like, came from or is comprised of (if no photos or videos, how about a link to an informational page/site?), since "American Jujitsu" could be just about anything: one website using the term describes what they do as MMA, another is related to Danzan-ryu. But atemi-waza are emphasized in both, so I doubt these are what you were referring to. Since atemi-waza and ukemi (at least you have an aikido background to address that second gap) are not emphasized, it sounds like the system is based on sports grappling on the ground. How do you folks soften up an uke in scenarios in which atemi-waza are sensible options (e.g. why not shin rake and/or foot stomp if caught in a headlock)?

If it's eclectic and just badged "jujitsu", then based on what you've stated, in general I think the Filipino arts would be something that might meet your criteria (more of a Jeet Kun Do approach). And, many Filipino arts incorporate "dumog" which is close-range grappling that might tie back into your jujutsu practice.


. . . currently a 9th kyu Jujitsuka. . .
Have you discussed your concerns with your instructor? Maybe he has a game plan regarding filling in the blanks? For example, people I know who study Krav Maga don't formally learn ukemi until they've moved up a few ranks (does it make sense to delay ukemi training in any system that purports to be addressing what might happen in "reality"??), though the KM folks like their atemi early and often.

[jujitsuka]

Hi Koshu,

Sorry my description in my last e-mail didn't give a good picture of what I am learning in my class. Unfortunately, we don't have a website, because we are a very small dojo. But let me have another go at explaining:

The art I am learning is definitely eclectic; my instructor incorporates ideas and techniques from Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Small Circle Jujitsu, Chin Na, Aikido, and Silat. I know this because he tells us, and because I sometimes recognize some of the Aikido and Chin Na techniques I have learned in the past.

We practice both standing and ground defenses. Typically, we begin class with standing techniques, then either expand on those techniques or shift to ground fighting, and often end class by rolling.

The highest ranked students in our classright now are 7th kyu, and I am the lowest ranked (9th kyu), because our sensei just started teaching this class a year and a half ago. So, the 7th kyu students are the ones who started at the beginning. I joined the dojo about 4 months ago.

Because there are no senior students in the class, I don't have a specific picture of what we will all be learning in the higher kyu grades. But my sensei does tell us about his teaching goals: Eventually, he wants us to be able to roll at the end of class from a standing position (instead of kneeling as we do now), learn weapon defenses, and defend against multiple attackers.

Rather than using atemi-waza, we are learning to use leverage moves to disarm an uke. For example, to escape a headlock, one technique I have learned is to reach up with a free hand and knock the uke backwards by pushing up under her nose.

A technique we have learned for escaping from a guillotine hold involves placing one arm over the uke's shoulder, placing the other arm on the hip and pushing up to release the pressure of the lock. From there, the tori can position her leg behind the uke's knee and fold it under, taking the uke to the ground. Once on the ground, the tori applies a forearm choke to loosen the uke's hold and escape from the gulliotine, and can take a side control position.

Does this help give you a better picture of the class?

It seems like Modern Arnis or another Filipino art would fit what I am learning because of the dumog, like you said. But I am open to other suggestions.

Rebecca

[Koshu]

Rather than using atemi-waza, we are learning to use leverage moves to disarm an uke. For example, to escape a headlock, one technique I have learned is to reach up with a free hand and knock the uke backwards by pushing up under her nose.
That sounds like an atemi to me. (Maybe there are more "hidden" in your system ??) :wink2:


A technique we have learned for escaping from a guillotine hold involves placing one arm over the uke's shoulder, placing the other arm on the hip and pushing up to release the pressure of the lock. From there, the tori can position her leg behind the uke's knee and fold it under, taking the uke to the ground. Once on the ground, the tori applies a forearm choke to loosen the uke's hold and escape from the gulliotine, and can take a side control position.
Opportunities to execute steps in a technique as atemi, or with atemi, colored purple above.

[Mekugi]

Brilliant job Mert!



I've practiced a little Shindo Muso-ryu, and found it very compatible with jujutsu.

Just curious, did you come to find that on your own? I was (and am) thick skulled, it took me a while to figure that out (after I started the auxiliary weapons, it became clear).

[Koshu]

Just curious, did you come to find that on your own? I was (and am) thick skulled, it took me a while to figure that out (after I started the auxiliary weapons, it became clear).
Russ --- My powers of mi tori geiko are puny. :( My comment to Rebecca above was really just a bit of sogo-bujutsu conventional wisdom.

That said, certain SMR kata nicely dovetail with the feel and principles of the jujutsu I study. For example, this Omote kata (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7vrbTScmjk) has properties similar to Hakkoryu's Hakko-Zeme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o8nLPtmoXA).

[Mekugi]

Otofuji sensei!

Very interesting. Thanks for that.

[jujitsuka]

That sounds like an atemi to me. (Maybe there are more "hidden" in your system ??) :wink2:

Hey...I guess you're right!

Thanks for the conversation, Koshu. I really enjoyed it!

Rebecca

[jujitsuka]

Just curious, did you come to find that on your own? I was (and am) thick skulled, it took me a while to figure that out (after I started the auxiliary weapons, it became clear).

Hi Russ,

If you're looking for Shindo Muso Ryu Jodo in the U.S., check out Kobujodokai USA: kobujodokai-usa.org.


Rebecca

[Koshu]

Hi Russ,

If you're looking for Shindo Muso Ryu Jodo in the U.S., check out Kobujodokai USA: kobujodokai-usa.org.

Rebecca --- Here's a little more info regarding Ebert-sama. (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16652) :bow::D

[RickMatz]

Kyudo: it will help you calm your mind.

[jujitsuka]

Thanks for the suggestion, Rick!

Rebecca

[Mekugi]

You should probably just go try some stuff out and see if you like it. Flip the web-phonebook open and see if there is anything in your area. Check it out. Sounds reasonable, eh? Maybe you'll be able to make connections on your own from there! I'm sure I am divining the obvious, but it never hurts just to say it. :)

[jujitsuka]

Thanks for the advice, Russ sensei. I'll see what I can come up with.

"Divining the obvious." I like that phrase. In fact, in some ways...isn't that what studying martial arts is all about?

Rebecca

[Mekugi]

Just call me Russ. That feels much more comfortable!
:)

I think you are right! There is a lot of "obviousness divination" going on in Budo. I'm a big fan of Occam's Razor and simplicity, so it that is pretty much my theme.

[jujitsuka]

Russ it is. :) Just wanted to show my respect.

Meanwhile, Occam's Razor is where it's at. And so is Budo.

Thanks again for the tips!


Rebecca

[Mekugi]

It's all good!
How are things coming along? Have you settled somewhere?

Incidentally, there is a folk singer that shares your name....http://www.rkatztunes.com/index.htm

[jujitsuka]

For the immediate future, my plan is focus my energy on my Jujitsu studies. In the extended future, I would really love to try a Filipino Martial Art such as Kali, or Silat, which is an influence on my current sensei's teaching. Having studied a gendai style, I might also want to study a koryu or more traditional gendai style down the road. But for now, my road is Jujitsu.

Yeah, there are a lot "Rebecca Katz"es out there. It's a pretty common name!

Rebecca

[Mekugi]

Awesome Rebecca! It sounds like you have sorted things out nicely.

Just as a little experiment: could you write up a little something about a day in training? I mean, what do you train in on an average day? What do you find challenging and what comes easy for you? Is there anything you like more than the rest? Stuff like that.

Wow I guess that name is popular! Cool!

-Russ

[jujitsuka]

Hey Russ,

See my post from 07-18-2010 for a description of a typical class and my dojo's curriculum.

My sensei's teaching emphasizes scenarios (as opposed to forms), like a traditional Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu class. (Although, the scenario-based techniques have begun to feel like forms to me the more I practice them solo.)

There is no written syllabus (also like BJJ) and all of the students train together for most of the class, regardless of rank (also like BJJ--not to repeat myself). We'll break into groups part of the time to work on rank-specific techniques, but always rotate partners when practicing so that we get a feel for the way a particular waza works (or needs to be adjusted) with people of different body types. (That's particularly helpful for me, because I'm kind of small. So it helps me get a feel for different leverage options with people of different shapes. If I'm tempted to muscle the move on someone more my size, pairing up with someone bigger helps me cut that out, and then I learn how to do it on person mor my size too.)

My sensei's philosophy is to teach Jujitsu as if we were learning to play chess. He teaches us a technique for a given scenario, then encourages us to figure out how to adjust that technique when the situation changes. He tells us all the time: His goal is to teach us how to be flexible and go-with-the-flow in a real situation, staying calm,planning ahead and making adjustments.

He'll introduce a technique we're going to be working on in class by saying something like this: "I've noticed in rolling the past few weeks that a lot of people are getting stuck when they get caught in side control. So I want to show you one escape you can use in that situation." He'll show us, and then we'll practice that in pairs, and, inevitably, when something natural and unpredictable happens in the course of practicing the technique (e.g. someone falls in a way that requires an adjustment), sensei will come over and say: "Okay, he didn't fall the way you planned. You can't get the arm bar you were going for, but you have a couple of other options here. What can you do?" And then we figure it out.

Right now I am finding it challenging to be on the offensive, seeing when I have a possible submission or control position. I have good defensive instincts, which my classmates say are tough to work around, but I don't have a great feel for my offense yet. But that's okay! It will come in time. I just have to keep practicing. (I'm only a 9th kyu!)

The waza I enjoy the most are the stand-up techniques, because I have an Aikido background and good balance on my feet. I'm working on strengthening my core and sharpening my perception when I am on the ground.

Phew! That was a much longer e-mail than you probably bargained for! Thanks for reading. :)

Rebecca

[Mekugi]

Thanks Rebecca!

Is your school involved in any competition?

[jujitsuka]

You're welcome! No, we're strictly a non-competitive school.

Rebecca

[Mekugi]

You're welcome! No, we're strictly a non-competitive school.

Rebecca
Couple more things, if you don't mind....

Which of these things applies to what you do:

-Large Joint Locks (elbow;knee; etc.)

-Small Joint locks (fingers, wrist, ankle, etc.)

-Choking

-Pins

If you could order those, or eliminate or add some, what would it look like on a list?

-R

[jujitsuka]

Which of these things applies to what you do:

-Large Joint Locks (elbow;knee; etc.)

-Small Joint locks (fingers, wrist, ankle, etc.)

-Choking

-Pins

If you could order those, or eliminate or add some, what would it look like on a list?

I would order the list for our class this way:

1. Breaks
2. Chokes
3. Take-downs
4. Large joint locks
5. Pins
6. Small joint locks

Why do you ask, Russ?

[Mekugi]

Why do you ask, Russ?

I was kicking the old peanut around and thinking that a lot of jujutsu schools have applications that go hand in hand with using a "short stick". So, you might look into using the "yawara stick" or "tambo" for what you are doing because it might blend almost seamlessly into your current training.

Something like this:


http://www.youtube.com/v/aU-QDFzVPgA

The Webmaster here, Robert Carver, has a lot of experience with it as well. It might be fun to try!


Added: I don't know who they are but I found this page that has a lot of the weapons I'm talking about: http://www.freewebs.com/uchidachi/tanboyubiboporras.htm

Namely this:
4385

Which is pretty much just a sledge hammer handle with the top part cut off.

http://lawn-and-garden.hardwarestore.com/83-523-sledge-hammer-handles/hickory-sledge-handle-669954.aspx

Cheap. You can get 2 out of one handle. :)

[jujitsuka]

Cool! Thanks for the idea, Russ.

Rebecca

[Mekugi]

You bet! I hope they can be of some use to you!

-R

[TheLetterX]

Hey all,

Well this will be my first in this forum so here goes! :)

I practice Can-Ryu Jiu-Jitsu, founded in Canada by Professor Georges Sylvain, where he tried to keep it to a bsaic street self-defense style not only in the techniques but also for the weapons. We practice several weapons of opportunity which includes the yawara stick, the "persuader" (yawara stick with key rings and keys) and the baton (to simulate baseball bat attacks and the likes.) We call them weapons of opportunity because the yawara stick could easily be a pen, stapler, ruler or anything else you can get your hands on. So like Russ said, the yawara stick would be an ideal "weapon of opportunity" for to explore and complement your jiu-jitsu training.

[Mekugi]

Small weapons are great tools for grappling; they go hand in hand :)

It sounds like you're one who appreciates that!

Do you have any video if how you use them? Would love to see it!

[TheLetterX]

Sorry for long wait, the flu hit my family pretty hard the last few months and no matter of jiu-jitsu could protect against the microbes but all is good now :) As for videos, I do not have any per say but I seem to recall a clip on youtube from a while back that was posted. And yes I do appreciate the small weapons. My big challenge now is to use them in grappling. I know the basic movements but it still feels a little weird to use them during grappling since I`m used to having my hands free of any objects. ALOT more effective agaisnt pressure points though ;)