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What are your opinions Shushu koju (defend first, attack after) with regard to 'live' situations?
For example, I believe (if memory serves me right; I don't actually have the book to hand) that Geoff Thompson in his book Watch My Back states that in his experience the majority of 'altercations' are won by the person who strikes first. He suggests establishing a 'fence' and chinning an opponent should they decide to step inside it? Further the common saying: ‘Attack is the best form of defence’ supports this position.
What do you think?
I must admit that I try to avoid those real life situations: dodging to cement hurts.
But, by my limited experience, defending first can work nicely, especially if attacker is not aware about fact that attacking opens gate for counter-attack. Taking the grappling hand to control, direct the strike or kick to such as direction that attacker loses balance and then do counters, I don't see why it wouldn't work.
Of course, if the starting attack is something like hitting back of head with baseball bat... well there will not be much defence or counter attack left afterwards.
Good question anyway, mr. Watts. Hope there will be some good answers, too.
I dont do Shorinji Kempo so excuse me if I I jump into the wrong waters....
I dont feel defense means letting them make the first attack.
Even if so the Fence is still defensive.
We also try to get peoples defense to be offensive.
Defensive Progression...worst to best
Block and counter (2 beats)
Evade and counter (2 beats)
Sabaki or Gunting (Constructive or Destructive blocking)
Sectors (simultaneous block / evade / counter)
For me I use alot alot of offensive techniques with defensive characteristics....it might just be a jab but whether Im using it like a Sliding Leverage Punch / Cut Sector inside or outside to cut the line of his punch while continuing mine.
Its an attack but reflexive to his attack.
I have supplemented my Shorin-ji karate training with various other styles, one of which is the adrenal stress training from Peyton Quinn / Bill Kipp.
One of the things I learned is that IF you let me get close enought to you that I can touch you by just putting out my hand (no body movement is needed) then I can hit you at will and you can't stop me.
This is one of the reasons I believe that sparring is poor training for fighting, it conditions you to a certian distance in which a counter can be useful but ignores the distancing of many face to face arguements that go to the physical.
If someone is angry at me and gets with range to pick me off, I go first - that's just the way it is.
Bear in mind that in Shorinji Kempo, the defensive move sets up the counter-attack. Also remember that sen-no-sen can be justified upon occasion. If using sen-no-sen, however, Mizuno Sensei recommends smiling, so you look less agressive. ;)
Using proper stances and postures opponent's attack can be predicted (at least on some level), and if predicted and expected, it can be countered.
Thank you for all your posts.
Regarding 'sen no sen', I have to rather shamefully admit that I had to look it up!!
Anyway, according to the 'Fukudoku-hon textbook' 'sen no sen' is when you sense an opponent is going to attack and you apply a technique before the attack is begun. This sounds great to me and I especially like the advice from Mizuno Sensei about smiling. One further question, though, does ‘technique’ encompass ‘goho’ (strikes: kicks, punches etc) or is it limited to ‘juho’ (locks, pins, throws etc?
Originally posted by steve watts
One further question, though, does ‘technique’ encompass ‘goho’ (strikes: kicks, punches etc) or is it limited to ‘juho’ (locks, pins, throws etc?
Technique encompasses both goho and juho. Another reason why Mizuno Sensei recommends smiling as you strike is to relax you. HTH.
When my good lady wife and I were at Hozan, we sat in on most of the Busen classes. One of them was completely about Shu Shu Ko Ju. Most of the discussion was about the non combative side of it. It was very interesting how to apply it to daily life.
As Tony pointed out, sen no sen is always an option. You do not have to wait for the attacker to fully complete the attack before you counter. There are also many Shikake Waza to allow you to neutralize an aggressor who is attacking or harassing someone else. Remember Shorinji Kempo is about stopping fighting, so in some cases you may need to attack in order to defend someone else. The comment about the first strike usually deciding the victor is not complete enough. Hitting first and attacking first are two separate things. Remember too, that most Shorinji Kempo stances are invitations to attack. If used correctly you can appear defensive, almost submissive, but yet you control him by limiting his options for attack..
Sorry for my dis-jointed rambling. It’s late.
Gassho, Onno, and welcome to Budoseek.
What do you mean "it's late"? It's only mid-afternoon here! ;)
Good post. The phrase you chose, " a difference between attacking first and striking first" is telling. It's succinct and definitley describes Shorinji Kempo: it's a question of attitude.
Thank you for the welcome! It was indeed my first Budoseek post.
The class at Honzan I reffered to was entirely about attitude. How to make choices in your daily life using Shu Shu Ko Ju as a guide.
Also, on stances, I once saw a Sensei at a seminar show how Taiki-gamae can be relaxed so that you have the upper hand by your chin ( like stroking a breard ) while the other and is supporting the elbow. He then demonstarted how you can do Me-uchi using either hand as well as prefom the standard blocks from this position. In a stand off type situation you can appear deep in thought or considering the attackers rantings while you are really preparing for an attack. If you consider your weight would shifted slightly to the rear, then Machi-geri is easy as well as Chidori-gaeshi, Tsubame-gaeshi, Mikazuki-gaeshi, Kote-nage... etc. ( Ahhh... some many options ;) )
Take care all.
My friend told me what he does when he wants to persuade someone, "win" an argument (nobody wins an arguement!).
Say they are talking about an issue, like how the new manji is good (or bad). He says, just ask them their opinion on it. Once they tell you why it is good, then say, is there anything more? And get those reasons. Keep asking till you get all the reasons they can think of. Now. You have everything they could offer. All you have to do is take each and every point and show them how it is wrong. They won't have anything left to say. I guess this is super obvious, but I am saying that you should defend (listen) first, to see what they have. Then you can plan your defence and go. So this is one way how I try to apply shu shu koju in my life. It has helped me be a better listener, something that I think is very important for today's man.
It is the same in randori. It is pretty easy to wait, defend, go back. The opponent will try different things, while you watch for their bad habits, patterns. Then, because you have not given any data on attacks, he won't know what you have, but you will know what he has.
You may not have this luxury if you are out of time, faced with a weapon (increased risk?), or bad at defending.
How does shu shu koju work in hokei? Bruce Lee said that attacking first is better, but the Art of War says opposite, as does kaiso.
I can't fully explain how it works, but here are a couple of ideas.
The kosha must send signals from the brain to the body to initiate an attack. During this time, I think that there are many changes in the body that are not noticable to the concious self, but that one can pick up with focus. This is almost like telepathy, because one cannot physically say where or what moved to telegraph, it is just 'felt'. Probably little changes in expression, eyes, etc...
It is during this time that the kosha changes from his jitsu kamae into kyo. It is at this point that the shusha can take the middle line and maintain balance. Obviously for this to be possible the shushu must be focused (non-thinking, expecting) and also have fast brain to body reaction, as well as good technique. From my experience, the gaps from brain to body, and reaction time improve rapidly with such focused practice. So that is my bit on why I think shu shu koju works....
Tripitaka of AA
The trick is not to wait too long... :shoot:
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