View Full Version : Is a Martial Arts Instructor in a Position of Trust?
I was just having a conversation with someone and I realized something. I have always viewed a Martial Arts Instructor and a Martial Arts Master as being trustworthy. Because of thier position, then trust is implied. The same way you would trust a minister, or police officer, then you should be able to trust a Martial Arts Master. After some experiences, I now see that perhaps that is the wrong idea to have.
What do you think and why?
You're spending money so you would trust them like any other merchant.
They're teaching you a skill so you trust them that the still is authentic.
If they are claiming that the skill is useful in fighting, you're trusting them not t o teach you stupid ideas that will only get you hurt.
If you're trusting them with your kids then you're trusting them with your kids for all that implies.
Other than that, we're in the West and our values apply over cliche karate-kid movie examples that may or may not have anything at all to do with the realities in any given foreign martial arts culture.
Ministers and police are public servants. Marital arts instructors are not.
Now, if you happen to find a real gem, with the heart of a teacher/aunt/uncle/community-member, a Jigaro Kano or Mr. Miyagi, then whatever trust you build with them is specific to that person and your individual relationship with them.
JWhiteSensei
07-23-2010, 13:54
I'm sorry Eric. I agree in some ways with you and in some ways I don't.
It's true we are Westerners. Why should we, if practicing an art, treat it any differently because of our location.
I am a Sensei. I'm not a merchant. Perhaps it's part of the Samurai spirit thing. Samurai hated the Merchant class. I don't "sell" an item. I "provide" knowledge and instruct. I teach. If you do that and do not build a bond between yourself and your students, you are either missing out on the heart of the art or you're doing it wrong and for the wrong reasons.
I am a minister although not a Christian minister. A minister is NOT a public servant. I am a Correctional Officer. Almost like a cop, just a different kind of jurisdiction. In that aspect, though unrecognized and unappreciated, I am a public servant.
Growing up and in my early 20's, Mr Miyagi and Qui Chan Kane were role models for me. I base a lot of my teaching philosophy from the ones I learned from them. You and others may belittle that, but it works.
To me the answer is a yes and no thing. I will say one thing that I teach my students. I have many who come to me from other styles. When they bow to me they want to look me in the eyes. They have been taught to look in the eyes when bowing because they should never trust their enemy / oponent. I tell them that I am their Sensei. If they cannot trust me, they can't trust anyone. the only time to look me in the eyes when bowing is before kumite. And do that out of respect, not mistrust.
Jim, you're quite welcome to disagree with me. Mine is certainly not the "correct" opinion about stuff. I get to learn from people who challenge my ideas. No need to apologize at all.
I don't meant to belittle the archetypes we've discussed - not at all. I mean to argue that such a relationship with such a person is a luxury and is not to be expected from any given MA instructor.
It is certainly to be appreciated and cherished, though. What I described are the bare minimums that ought to be expected.
If a given dojo/jang has such a culture then, again, that's bonus, or at least something specific to that dojo. It shouldn't be expected.
The MMA places where I trained did not have such a culture (at all). The BJJ academy had a different feel to it. One of our coaches is in prison right now. The other is a great guy - I'd trust him with my kid. The Judo clubs where I trained did have that feel that the sensei is a pillar of the community and ought to behave as such (and they did - they were wonderful).
I'm not sure how much is Japanese MA influence or simply that I managed to find some really lovable instructors.
Trust goes both ways and should be earned not expected.
There are different levels of trust, and each is earned. It is a sad fact that anyone can claim to be a Martial Arts instructor. For that matter people claim to teachers of all kinds of things.
In the very beginning there is no trust only curiosity on the part of the student. If the student is smart they observe some classes before they decide to try a class. The instructor should also during the first few classes watch the student to determine if they are a good fit with their class.
As time goes on, both will ideally grow in their trust of each other.
If as a parent I am looking at another person to teach my kids, I will put them through a much more thorough screening than if I am to be the student.
Dennis
torbjork
07-23-2010, 16:02
so you trust them that the still is authentic
Ah tell ya, thish here schtill ish real arth...owr...uh, good!
...Sorry ;)
In my opinion it's pretty dangerous to generally trust anyone based on what their title is, whether they bestowed it on themselves or someone else did.
Trust the person once you know them to be trustworthy, not the office.
Cliff Hargrave
07-23-2010, 17:23
Trust goes both ways and should be earned not expected.
/end thread
You all make some good points. :)
Prior to a student enrolling in a school, I agree with Erik: we're merchants in the student's eyes, plain and simple, and no trust is implied (Jim started a thread that chronicled his misadventures and eventual triumph in establishing a dojo -- as a business [congrats, by the way Jim!!]).
But after mutual trust is earned, and even once it's grown quite strong, it can be tested and sometimes it fails on one or both sides (sounds like Morgan may have been hinting at this type of scenario). Can it, or should it then be re-earned? That's not something we can generically answer since there are so many potential factors: some aspects of the trust between a student and teacher are synonymous with those of relationships with other close peers, even relatives (what if your teacher is also your parent, or your significant other [we've had case studies appear here on BudoSeek in the past]?); others are unique to the martial arts, others are unique to a given school; and even if all else remains the same, no two people are alike.
Why the distinction between teachers and masters in the original post Morgan? My experience is that I have great trust for my teacher, and yet I've had more trust for some of my sempai (more-experienced training partners) than for some of the "masters" who are senior to my teacher, for what that's worth.
Thank you for your input. :) I made a distinction between Master and Instructor for a reason. I posed this question to a different group of people. Then the question came up as to who exactly I was referring to. Some places a Master and Instructor are one in the same and other places they are different. Some make a distinction between the 2 and others say they both should be viewed the same. So I thought I would make a distinction here.
You are right there are many varying factors. But I would think that the position of either Master or Instructor should be owed a certain amount of respect. And for that respect wich is given, a certian standard of behavior and ethics should be displayed by a Master or Instructor. However I have a very limited amount of experience in 1 martial art. Many here have vast experience across several martial arts. So I posed the question here. :D
Respect is a two way street as well. I think you're confusing expectation with trust.
I pay and I expect and instructor to teach me, competently. Eventually a level of trust is earned and gained.
Martial art instructors are no different than anyone else that may earned their position. It still doesn't mean that they're good at or that they are a good person.
I've been to one school where I payed and expected to be taught the art in a competent manner. They didn't so I no longer trusted them to that so I left.
JWhiteSensei
07-24-2010, 10:31
I actually agree with pretty much everything that has been said here. Perhaps we should look at it this way. Morgan said
"I have always viewed a Martial Arts Instructor and a Martial Arts Master as being trustworthy. Because of thier position, then trust is implied. The same way you would trust a minister, or police officer, then you should be able to trust a Martial Arts Master."
Let's simply substitute the words minister and police officer with the words plumber and doctor. In reality I think you could probably use any words except perhaps used car salesman or telemarketer. The thing is, and it's been stated here, when you pay for a service or an item, you expect that service or item to be of a certain quality. It can be argued that your expectations are your own fault but you have them never the less. The provider of those services has a certain obligation to ensure that the product / item meets certain qualifications. This is where the conflict arises in anything. The quality doesn't meet the expectation.
I think as Martial Artists and especially instructors we have a certain obligation. It is our job, almost a duty, to provide what is expected of us. It is also a really good idea to sit down with a potential student and learn from them what their expectations of us are. I had three teen aged students. They had all been home schooled and pretty much kept away from society in general by over protective parents. All they knew of the world in a lot of cases is what they had learned from computers, movies, and video games. These kids actually believed that in six months I would have them levitating, running across tree tops, walking up walls, shooting fire balls from their hands, and god knows what else. Needless to say that after they realized these things were not going to happen they drifted away. One did remain for a while. I suppose he thought that if he showed Sensei his determination to learn that eventually I would open the Secret Book and teach him. My mistake: I had no clue that these sort of things were expected of me. Had I known, the situation probably would not have played out as long as it did.
The pre-ceeding was an example of unrealistic expectations. Most people have very real expectations of us. To put it in a business sense, they pay for a service and they expect quality. They trust us and they expect a bit of honor from us. Nothing is wrong with that. When I was a Lieutenant my Warden was not a very honorable man. He put on a mask. That's another story. He did tell me one thing that I have always remembered. He said, "Jim, ALWAYS do the right thing". I took that to heart and I take it into my dojo. The things we all stand for supposedly, are the things that will always serve to keep us out of any discrepancy. Honor. Integrity. Honesty. Bravery. Indomidable Spirit. Persistance. Loyalty. These things we simply need to uphold and pass on to our students.
In the end, what is wrong with us upholding these principles? Whether you like it or not, whether you accept it or not, you are a role model. You are in a position of trust. With all of your flaws and weakenesses your students still look up to you. With all my grammer and spelling errors I still hope to make a point (LOL). If you don't realize or believe this, then (IMO) you have no business teaching. We can't all be Mr. Miyagi but what is the harm of trying? Are you in this to simply make money, or are you in it to make a difference in someone, perhaps a kid's, life? Are you in it as a business or are you in it to possibly teach someone the skills they will need one day to save their life or the life of someone else? Believe it or not, there is a balance between the two ideals.
I'm not being judgemental. I'm just suggesting that if you don't consider yourself in a position of trust then you need to have several cups of coffee and wake the hell up. Everytime you stand in front of your students, you have placed yourself there as someone they look up to. The respect is earned over a period of time but a certain amount of it comes as soon as you strap on your uniform and your belt.
Wow, that was a long rant. I need to shut up now or I'll type all morning. 'Sides I think I pretty much just paraphrased what has already been said.
Prince Loeffler
07-24-2010, 12:19
I'll simplify my reply to this thread: I trust any individual regardless unless they give me a reason not to.
Here's a guy I sure as heck wouldn't trust and don't respect based on how he's selling himself, but someone's buying in:
http://www.kick-fit.co.uk/images/master.jpg (http://www.kick-fit.co.uk/about_us.htm)
Jim --- You're right that teachers have obligations to do right by students. We should definitely do our best as we know how. Anyway, Morgan seems to be referring to breaches of trust (and respect :confused:).
What Prince said.
JWhiteSensei
07-24-2010, 13:27
Here's a guy I sure as heck wouldn't trust and don't respect based on how he's selling himself, but someone's buying in:
http://www.kick-fit.co.uk/images/master.jpg (http://www.kick-fit.co.uk/about_us.htm)
Jim --- You're right that teachers have obligations to do right by students. We should definitely do our best as we know how. Anyway, Morgan seems to be referring to breaches of trust (and respect :confused:).
What Prince said.
:laugh::laugh::laugh: THAT'S a good one!
Thank you all for your replies. I really liked what you had to say Sensei Jim. I would certainly never expect a Sensei to act like a used car salesman.
If a Sensei is telling me to have a good attitude when I come to the dojo, then they should too.
If a Sensei is telling me to act with integrity, then they should too.
If a Sensei says that I should act honorably by wearing my Gi out of respect to the Martial Art, and my school, then they should do the same when wearing thier Gi.
I would apply this behavior to the dojo or martial arts events. I am not so unreasonable that I would hold it against a Sensei if I saw them drunk at a bar, and they did something stupid.
Prince Loeffler
07-24-2010, 15:27
Thank you all for your replies. I really liked what you had to say Sensei Jim. I would certainly never expect a Sensei to act like a used car salesman.
If a Sensei is telling me to have a good attitude when I come to the dojo, then they should too.
If a Sensei is telling me to act with integrity, then they should too.
If a Sensei says that I should act honorably by wearing my Gi out of respect to the Martial Art, and my school, then they should do the same when wearing thier Gi.
I would apply this behavior to the dojo or martial arts events. I am not so unreasonable that I would hold it against a Sensei if I saw them drunk at a bar, and they did something stupid.
You've been a sensei for how long ?
I am not a Sensei. I am a student. I have limited expereince with martial arts at 1 dojo. But I think I should educate myself on what would be generally acceptable in the martial arts world.
I have this theory, I've been working on it for a while, although it has been right there in front of me the whole time: people are people. They are flawed, no matter what position they hold or how lofty they are. There is no escaping that. It's just the way things are.
I do believe there is a misconception about authority in general. One that leads us to be easily fooled by the flash and pomp.
For example, a few years back a test was conducted on a University campus. One person was dressed up as campus security, another was dressed up as a regular Joe. Both asked passers by to pick up an item of trash that was in the walkway and put it in the trash-can that was nearby. Almost all of the people asked by the uniformed guard did as instructed. Almost none did so at the request of the common man. So, there is some psychology that goes on there. It can be abused, however reasoning should be the victor in any circumstance.
JWhiteSensei
07-25-2010, 07:14
I have this theory, I've been working on it for a while, although it has been right there in front of me the whole time: people are people. They are flawed, no matter what position they hold or how lofty they are. There is no escaping that. It's just the way things are.
I do believe there is a misconception about authority in general. One that leads us to be easily fooled by the flash and pomp.
For example, a few years back a test was conducted on a University campus. One person was dressed up as campus security, another was dressed up as a regular Joe. Both asked passers by to pick up an item of trash that was in the walkway and put it in the trash-can that was nearby. Almost all of the people asked by the uniformed guard did as instructed. Almost none did so at the request of the common man. So, there is some psychology that goes on there. It can be abused, however reasoning should be the victor in any circumstance.
That is one of the very first things they teach you when you become a Correctional Officer. The uniform bears with it a certain amount of authority in itself. That simply wearing it will instill in others an almost obligation to do as you say because by wearing it you are seen as an authority figure. I see the same, although in a different way, message sent when someone wears a MA uniform.
I do believe there is a misconception about authority in general. One that leads us to be easily fooled by the flash and pomp.
Thank you for your post. You have hit the nail on the head here. Many in a position of authority have abused the trust that was given to them. But I was under the impression that this should not be acceptable in the Martial Arts world.
I have always assumed that when it comes to Martial Arts, there are probably only a rare 1% of bad apples out there. The rest are good guys. Now I am beginning to wonder about that. And it seems to me that when you are going out to look for a dojo, there ought to be a way to weed out the good guys from the bad guys.
JWhiteSensei
07-25-2010, 12:31
I think this might say a lot about the subject
http://www.tkri.net/cookthesensei.html
JWhiteSensei
07-25-2010, 12:34
Thank you for your post. You have hit the nail on the head here. Many in a position of authority have abused the trust that was given to them. But I was under the impression that this should not be acceptable in the Martial Arts world.
I have always assumed that when it comes to Martial Arts, there are probably only a rare 1% of bad apples out there. The rest are good guys. Now I am beginning to wonder about that. And it seems to me that when you are going out to look for a dojo, there ought to be a way to weed out the good guys from the bad guys.
I read an article recently entitled "7 Things To Look For When Choosing A Martial Arts School" If I can find it, I'll send it to you.
Thank you! :D I would like a copy of that. And thanks for the other link. I just read through it quickly. And see some explanation of where the idea of trust comes from. I will give it a better read and think on it. :bow:
That is an interesting read. My expectations for a Sensei are actually quite low. I should raise the bar a little! :laugh: j/k Really the only expectations I have of a Sensei is that they look after my best interests as thier student, look out for my safety the best that they can, and be honest and truthful with me in every dealing. I also expect that I should be able to question anything. I am not a sheep that follows blindly. If I question something or bring an issue up, I think that it should be given some consideration. Not dismissed as though I have no right to ask at all. I do not think I am asking too much.
Brian R. VanCise
07-26-2010, 11:43
Trust goes both ways and should be earned not expected.
Absolutely no matter who it is! :cool:
I have given this subject much thought. I agree with everything that Sensei White has said. And he has stated it far better than I could have. There are many persons out there teaching Martial Arts for the right reasons. They want to preserve the art, they want to teach people to defend themselves and the list goes on and on. I think for every Martial Art out there, except maybe for the MMA clubs, there is a code of conduct. Here are just a few links of different organizations displaying thier code of conduct:
http://www.meridiangatekungfu.com/martial-arts-curriculum/wu-de-code-of-conduct.php
http://www.ninmaa.org/pdf_documents/NINMAA_Ethics.pdf
http://www.namyang.co.uk/about/code-of-conduct.php
And of course there is the Code of Bushido. Now it is of course difficult to live up to a standard of conduct 24/7 for the rest of your life. People do make mistakes. But it is implied that a Martial Artists, no matter what thier art will be striving to follow a certain code of conduct. Mistakes from a human who is flawed should be expected and forgiven. However when it becomes clear that a Martial Artist, specifically a Sensei, knowingly acted with bad intent, then it is inexcusable.
As pointed out in the article posted by Sensei White, Martial Arts has been filled with issues since it's beginning. There are plenty of people out there doing it for the wrong reasons. To feed a desire to hold power over another, or for extorting money are just a couple. There are verifiable cases of this happening. There was a certain chain of schools where persons who left needed deprogramming. They were deeply and negatively affected by the greed of the corporation, and thier cult like tactics.
So although there is a perfectly logical reason why people give thier trust Martial Arts Masters and teachers, this is the wrong thing to do. Unfortunately you cannot ass-u-me anything. As a student we must not trust blindly, but must be vigilant and aware. If there is a code of ethics at your school does your Sensei follow it most of the time? Is your Sensei suggesting something to you that might sound unreasonable if any other person were to say it? How does your Sensei treat you when you question something? Your Sensei demands respect from you, but does your Sensei give you respect? Your Sensei puts you through "tests" and you must put your Sensei through "tests", to learn if they can be trusted.
tgace334
07-29-2010, 03:31
This may apply here:
http://tkriblog.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/moral-posturing-and-pretensions-the-rectification-of-words/
Spend a few years in karate and you will find that there are all sorts of scoundrels associated with karate who—for all of the years they have spent talking about character perfection—are nothing more than bullies, thieves, liars, con men, or worse. There are lots of good people who train in karate as well, but in my experience the distribution of bad to good people pretty well matches the distribution in society at large; there is nothing magic about karate that makes its practitioners good people or moral exemplars.
...
Read the whole thing. I think the writer is spot on.
Thank you for the article Tom. Sadly enough it IS spot on. :( I almost feel that if given 3 guesses I could name the chain of schools.
Many women who have been vicitims of violence DO come to martial arts as a step in becoming empowered. I was not aware of this myself until I was put in front of such a person to spar. There are strict rules of no contact with a white belt at my dojo. I have very good control when it comes to not making contact. I am one of the least intimidating persons in the dojo. So I was in front of a woman sparring. I started my line of "air strikes" and noticed she did nothing. Then she covered her head and ducked down. I was thinking "she's gonna do a takedown!". So I backed up. But I noticed she was on the floor crying. I immediately thought she was crying because she blew out a knee or something. I told her I would call 911. Then she looked up and laughed breifly and said NO! Then she said I was just so fast and she felt completely helpless realizing that there was nothing she could do. Of course I am not black belt fast, but faster than she was used to seeing. Then she went on to explain some things about her life. Fortunately my Sensei was understanding. We did a different set up with her where she could step outside the ring at any time if she felt it was too much and she eventually got over it. Now I am actually afraid to strike at any people in a dojo unless I know they are really strong physically and mentally. I would rather take a beating than put anyone in that situation.
Then after all of this, I became aware that this chain of schools, who actually advertises self defense classes after an attack is reported in the papers, or on the news, actually had sexual predators in thier midst! It literally made me sick to my stomach! It was stated that EVERY instructor must pass a background check. However there was an instructor with a "very long arrest record" teaching teens at a dojo in said chain. I made my sensei aware of this. And asked what happened.
I put some thought into this, and realzied that the background checks performed might not be thourough enough. I did some research on my own and took a suggestion to them as to how they MIGHT be able do a complete background check. The response I got to it all was completely unacceptable and absolutely shocking. I had already identified some other possible issues with the place. I decided if they weren't going to take this seriously, then they wouldn't take any of the rest seriously either. So I left. I have discovered even more issues in the short time since leaving. So I can see they are obviously about the money and that's it.
Of course I thought this was quite rare in the world of Martial Arts. But I thought I would post a thread on the subject and see what everyone had to say. I posted here and some other places as well. The overall response was a surprise to me.
Morgan, great thread you have going here!
One thing I would like to add (my apologies if this has already been discussed; I did not see it). There is a difference - a huge one - between distrust/mistrust and lack of trust. The first is obvious; the second, not so much. Think of "lack of trust" as being trust-neutral. You don't distrust the person, but you don't trust them either. You simply do not have enough information to make a determination.
With all of the fruitcakes, flakes, and predators who sport the titles "Sensei," "Sabum," "Shihan," "Sifu," "Master," etc, it is much safer these days to not automatically fall into a cult-like admiration and trust for someone you don't know, just because they run around in exotic pajamas, have students who fawn over them, and make pseudo-cryptic statements of vague wisdom. As adults, it would be swell if we could automatically trust all other adults, NO MATTER WHAT their title, but the bottom line is we cannot and should not. That trust needs to be earned, and as Tony said, both parties need to earn it.
Jeff Cook
Thanks Jeff, I hope this thread will bring some awareness. That is some good advice. :)
JWhiteSensei
07-30-2010, 09:09
Tom, That was one of the best articles I've read in years. I think, for the most part, it is dead on.
Morgan, I am in agreement with you about background checks on instructors. My dojo is like a family. I have two Sempai who help teaching classes. One is my 14 year old daughter. The other is a lady I have known for countless years. Even though I am related to one and have known the other forever, I just recently began letting them teach classes unsupervised.
I also hope that some of the questions and concerns you had when you started this thread have been answered.
Jeff, I agree with you 100%. This is a great thread. It has brought out some deep self philosophies within myself and has also opened me to some insights I have not considered in the past.
I became aware that this chain of schools, who actually advertises self defense classes after an attack is reported in the papers, or on the news, actually had sexual predators in thier midst! It literally made me sick to my stomach! It was stated that EVERY instructor must pass a background check. However there was an instructor with a "very long arrest record" teaching teens at a dojo in said chain. I made my sensei aware of this. And asked what happened.
I put some thought into this, and realzied that the background checks performed might not be thourough enough. I did some research on my own and took a suggestion to them as to how they MIGHT be able do a complete background check. The response I got to it all was completely unacceptable and absolutely shocking. I had already identified some other possible issues with the place. I decided if they weren't going to take this seriously, then they wouldn't take any of the rest seriously either. So I left. I have discovered even more issues in the short time since leaving. So I can see they are obviously about the money and that's it.
Morgan --- You've been very considerate in not naming names so far, but if you have absolute conviction about what you've reported about this chain of schools, perhaps you would be providing a public service by outing this outfit by name so that others have the information available to help them decide whether or not to extend ----- trust.
Tripitaka of AA
07-31-2010, 09:30
Agreed. Great thread, one that I've been reading with interest. I was wary at the beginning as I suspected that Morgan was speaking from a bad experience. Difficult to stay general and hypothetical when it might seem at odds with an particular situation that has not been defined.
Now the specifics are a little clearer, I don't mind adding a tale that may fit into the general thread topic (while having nothing to do with the specifics Morgan mentioned in her recent post). Beware, this may take a while to describe;
In my chosen Art, part of the class time is given over to short lectures. These vary in content from traditional philosophy, to self-defense techniques, to subjects taught as part of the Art which are then part of the written test for grading, to personal stories and news articles that might help to illustrate concepts useful in study. It varies. Takes anything from 5 minutes to half an hour of a 2 hour class. It is a prescribed aspect of the training that should be carried out in every dojo/doin.
I normally trained on a Tuesday and Friday, but also started to do an extra class on a Saturday at the class run by my Sensei's Sensei. It had a fairly high concentration of senior grades and allowed those people to get some of their own learning done (instead of spending the class time training the junior students). I got to see the instructors from other clubs and my own instructor being taken through their paceswhich was pretty cool.
During one class, the Sensei gathered everyone around to give the short lecture and he told us about something that had happened to another instructor that we all knew. This other instructor had been woken in the night by a call from one of his students;
A shaky voice on the crackling phone line startled the Sensei. The student was not normally one to show any fear but now he sounded desparate. The Sensei went into high alert mode, he snapped awake and sat up in the bed, waking his wife in the process; "Sensei, I have a really bad fever. What should I do?"
We all laughed. We thought it was one of those stories about how dumb a student can be. We thought the lesson would be "think for yourself" or "stay calm" or "use the right technique at the right time" or something like that. Then Sensei surprised us all by saying "This is how you should be". We were a little confused. There had always been a big emphasis on self-reliance and building ourselves up to be strong and not depend on others. Why should we be like this student - he obviously did a stupid thing!
"No", said Sensei, "not the student - be like the Sensei!". He described how the Sensei had listened carefully, taken note of the symptoms and advised the student on how to get the right treatment. He'd driven around to the student's house and taken him to the hospital.
We were still a little confused. Why didn't the Sensei just tell him to do it himself? Why did he need to delay things by going himself? Was this all really the right thing to do? Weren't there better ways?
"You still don't get it" said our Sensei.
"You are the senior students. Some of you are Instructors already. You have to be the kind of person that someone will turn to when they don't know what to do. You have to be the one who leads the class. You have to show beginners how to do every small thing. You have to nuture confidence, build self-respect and train people to do things that they may never have dreamed that they could do. You have to live up to these ideals if you want to earn the title. You have to be Sensei 24 hours a day and you have to do it right. There will be times when that is not convenient or does not make sense, but you have to do it instantly without hesitation. People need to trust you. The student was willing to trust their teacher completely, as though he was the only person in the world on whom they could rely.
It took me quite a while to really understand the story, the lesson and the consequences of that story. I've seen it happen in a load of different situations since then and I can see what it means. Living up to the ideal is not easy. It doesn't get easier. Being a role model or a leader has its own dangers (Look up "Sword of Damocles" on Wiki for another example of that). Human frailty, weaknesses of character and some clumsy decision-making are all it takes to get knocked off a pedestal. Staying well-balanced on a plinth is not as easy as it looks. Students will come to trust their instructor about matters that have nothing to do with the stuff they teach in class - much as friends come to trust each other - and sometimes the title of "instructor" is taken to represent wisdom in all matters. The integrity and moral core of the instructor is hard to gauge, especially for those just starting out on their journey.
Goodness me. I do tend to write long posts.
Webmaster
07-31-2010, 13:27
Goodness me. I do tend to write long posts.
But it was a good one! :thumbup1:
torbjork
07-31-2010, 17:08
A very good read. It does bring to mind another question, who would call their golf or tennis coach in the middle of the night for advice about their fever? And how many swearwords would the coach's reply consist of? :D
I think that
You have to be Sensei 24 hours a day and you have to do it right.
is very accurate in describing one out of many ideals for the martial arts teacher to aspire to.
Goodness me. I do tend to write long posts.
Whoever will be the leader must be the servant of all.
An appropriate quote I believe considering David's post.
Dennis
tgace334
08-01-2010, 14:13
A very good read. It does bring to mind another question, who would call their golf or tennis coach in the middle of the night for advice about their fever?
And how many golf coaches would give their students the impression that they were experts in anything except golf?
Thats another martial arts specific phenomena IMO..the idea that the Sensei is an expert in anything other than the physical techniques of his/her art. Some martial arts teachers I have met would be the absolute LAST person I would go to for medical advice, meditation/spiritual instruction, firearms techniques, legal instruction, relationship advice...and all those other myriad topics that some teachers like to give the impression that they are expert in. At times I think the arts would be served better if Sensei's acted more like coaches than quasi-yoda like mystics.
torbjork
08-01-2010, 16:16
At times I think the arts would be served better if Sensei's acted more like coaches than quasi-yoda like mystics.
I'm not sure exactly what's "quasi-yoda like" or mystical about being a reliable person, but perhaps you could enlighten me...
David Craik
08-01-2010, 16:40
Funny, I think there's something about this is 'Living the Martial Way', or perhaps in one of Dave Lowry's books. I agree with Thomas wholeheartedly and will add that this 'mystical guru' phenomenon is fed by the students - both potential and actual.
Martial arts attract many of a certain type of person. I'm not saying all or even most martial artists are this way; but very few activities attract such a collection of grown fans of fantasy, comic books, video games, etc. In short, it attracts a lot of romantics and nerds. Many of them want a mystical guru type that can spout inscrutable Zen stuff and tidbits of 'bushido'. They want to believe that he has the wisdom to fix their marriage, offer financial advice, tell them the right decisions - otherwise you wouldn't have so many dojo with a cult-like atmosphere. They want to believe they've found some font of life's wisdom and didn't even have to scale the Himalayas to find it. He was right there in downtown Boise, and can teach them to be a 'warrior' just as he is.
There is nothing magical about martial arts as an endeavor. There isn't a thing more enlightening about throwing a punch than swinging a golf club. There isn't any more strategy in sparring than in playing a football game. Sure, a lot of arts have philosophical constructs but if that is the difference then why not just study the philosophy?
A martial arts instructor, imho, is in no less of a position of trust than the student is. It is the student that will transmit and represent this art in the future. There's no reason that there should be any more or less 'trust' than between a teacher and student of any other skill set.
Funny, I think there's something about this is 'Living the Martial Way', or perhaps in one of Dave Lowry's books. I agree with Thomas wholeheartedly and will add that this 'mystical guru' phenomenon is fed by the students - both potential and actual.
Martial arts attract many of a certain type of person. I'm not saying all or even most martial artists are this way; but very few activities attract such a collection of grown fans of fantasy, comic books, video games, etc. In short, it attracts a lot of romantics and nerds. Many of them want a mystical guru type that can spout inscrutable Zen stuff and tidbits of 'bushido'. They want to believe that he has the wisdom to fix their marriage, offer financial advice, tell them the right decisions - otherwise you wouldn't have so many dojo with a cult-like atmosphere. They want to believe they've found some font of life's wisdom and didn't even have to scale the Himalayas to find it. He was right there in downtown Boise, and can teach them to be a 'warrior' just as he is.
There is nothing magical about martial arts as an endeavor. There isn't a thing more enlightening about throwing a punch than swinging a golf club. There isn't any more strategy in sparring than in playing a football game. Sure, a lot of arts have philosophical constructs but if that is the difference then why not just study the philosophy?
A martial arts instructor, imho, is in less of a position of trust than the student is. It is the student that will transmit and represent this art in the future. There's no reason that there should be any more or less 'trust' than a teacher of any other skill set.
I also agree wholeheartedly.
tgace334
08-01-2010, 17:02
I can't top Daves explanation....
And I would add that there are a number of Sensei who "get off" on being looked up to in that way too. Some even cultivate that sort of persona.
I agree, but there can be an achievable balance. One can be a good leader and not be an expert on everything. As an NCO, I will ensure my Soldiers have their professional and personal needs addressed. If there are personal/marital problems, I will point them towards resources to help them, then follow-up to make sure the proper folks are taking care of them. If one of my Soldiers is sick, I make certain they understand sick-call procedures and have access to medical care. And of course I will follow-up to ensure they are getting better. What I don't do is try to heal them myself (ignore for the moment that I am a medic too).
As an NCO, one of my jobs is to teach my people to take care of themselves and others under them - in essence, empower them to be self-sufficient and teach them to be good leaders. That whole "teaching them to fish rather than handing them a fish" concept.
Is it my job, as a martial arts instructor, to be that kind of leader outside the dojo? That is open to debate and personal preference. In short, NO, it is not my job. When a parent brings a child to me to train, I may hold the child accountable for his/her school grades and monitor his behavior at home through his/her parents' reports, but it is the parent's job to raise him/her - NOT mine. I do the same thing that kid's schoolteacher does, to a certain extent.
Regarding my adult students, I prefer not to be a guru and go-to guy for everything outside the dojo. Frankly, I don't want the drama. I have been chastised by students of mine for not being militant and cultish enough. That's fine; they can take their dysfunctional asses down the road to a school that does that sort of thing. Not my job, and I find it to be distasteful. With that said, I am all for teamwork, building new friendships in an appropriate way, etc. As far as teaching the spirit of bushido, that can be achieved by simply training and challenging folks in a healthy, mutually respectful, skillful atmosphere while giving some historical context to the training.
I've seen so many fake "samurai warriors" over the years, who wear the costumes, demand (rather than earn) respect, abuse their students, and spout the same philosophy, but without proper bearing, behavior, and actions to back them up, the words are worse than empty. Those people are everywhere, and they disgust me.
Jeff Cook
David Craik
08-02-2010, 06:07
When a parent brings a child to me to train, I may hold the child accountable for his/her school grades and monitor his behavior at home through his/her parents' reports,
Just a shot in the dark, but I'd bet that you would do the same if you were their Little League coach or swim instructor. I think this stuff is more a function of who you are than what you are teaching.
Another general thought -
I think a lot of this idea we have of a 'sensei' being 'special' among teachers or trainers of other skills comes from martial arts being about the only type of Asian arts many people in the West are familiar with and can easily train in. What doesn't occur to them is that pretty much all traditional Japanese arts - ikebana, sado, shodo, music, whatever - all are taught in basically the same way and share many of the same concepts. In fact, much of Japanese society in general is this way.
So rather like the commonly held tenets of Bushido, it is less a 'budo' thing than it is simply a 'Japanese' thing. Even more ironic is the rigid, militaristic mode of training with bowing to flags, shouted commands, and the like that many associate with old, authentic budo was basically unknown prior to around WWII. They are running dojo like a 1939 kendo class for youngsters. But people just lap it up. :D
Just a shot in the dark, but I'd bet that you would do the same if you were their Little League coach or swim instructor. I think this stuff is more a function of who you are than what you are teaching.
Exactly, David!
Jeff Cook
torbjork
08-02-2010, 12:36
Just a shot in the dark, but I'd bet that you would do the same if you were their Little League coach or swim instructor. I think this stuff is more a function of who you are than what you are teaching.
That kind of "spillover" is actively discouraged here, apparently being constantly reminded of poor results in one area causes performance to drop in others, especially among children. I have no clue whatsoever how the kids in my junior class are doing in school, nor do I want to know - I'm not a child educator and wouldn't know what to do with the data. I teach them to kick and punch and to stand still for more than 30 seconds at a time ;)
What I take from the story related above is that if you're going to be a teacher (pretty much of anything) you're by default going to be someone that people will look up to one way or another, and that puts a certain responsibility on you to not be an ass. There's no need to go overboard and claim you're the current reincarnation of Gautama Buddha (which I think would be theologically impossible anyway?).
...but very few activities attract such a collection of grown fans of fantasy, comic books, video games, etc. In short, it attracts a lot of romantics and nerds.
Yeah, it attracted me didn't it...
To be honest, I haven't seen a lot of that type of person in the martial arts around here - sure, there are some among the beginners but they don't stick around for long once they figure out they have to get sweaty. One left during the water break after warmup and was never heard from again, I was worried she'd gotten sick!
Mert- There are places for naming names but I thought this place was classy joint where you don't do that. It is much better to create a web page entitled “ABC company RUN!” so when a busy mom is googling ABC company, she can get all of the info in one handy place. Most people will never think to come and look on forums like this for info. I had googled ABC company, and didn't get much but 4 and 5 star reviews by students. There are many students at my dojo who have said it was the best place in town, although not perfect. Of course ignorance is bliss.
I did send a rather scathing e-mail to ABC company explaining how they put their students at risk. I also explained that I would not be back because of it. At first I was treated as though I was just making a mountain out of a molehill. Eventually someone at ABC did say they would think it all over and get back to me. So I am not holding my breath, but I will give them a bit more time on it. I am hoping that they will decide to take care of their own problems. Otherwise, I will have to act. I am surprised they can't realize that what is good for their students is good for their bottom line. Any reasonable person would realize that I am looking out for the best interests of the students and ABC company as well. I suppose connect the dots is too complicated of a game for them.
David N., I was wanting the opinion of the reader's experience, rather than a comment on my own. I perhaps should have worded the question differently. I liked your post! It seemed rather short and to the point to me. ;b I would never think to call a Sensei if I was sick. But you have pointed out that some people would.
Torbjorn, I can appreaciate your humor! :) You also make some good points. Thanks.
Dennis, I like your quote. It is true in many situations.
Tom, I like your post and agree with it as well. Although I think that a Sensei should respect their position and bring honor to it, many don't. And in that case, they should act as merely a coach.
David C., I agree with some of what you have said. Yes there are many people in the world who have lost touch with reality. And these types of persons will go anywhere where their delusions can be fed. But in my opinion they are not the ones who give martial arts a bad name. It is the Sensei who allows them in and feeds their delusions in the interest of gaining money and control who give martial arts a bad name. Also not all nerds are this way. I know quite a few nerds and geeks. They are in fact, the harshest critics of martial arts instructors. “...So this dumb jock who has 2 random firing neurons in his head is going to tell me how to be a better person?!”
There are many persons who wish to give up control for many different reasons. It is the Sensei's job to tell them they are in control of their own destiny. But many Sensei take control over these types because they need it.
P
Many is the martial arts instructor who routinely points to a code of ethics on the wall and tell students to follow it. Many is the martial arts instructor who gives lessons in philosophy. Otherwise martial arts would be a sport like golf or gymnastics for example.
I completely agree with your statement about Japanese culture. There is a cultural difference in they way they teach things as opposed to the way we do it in the west. The same is true of the Chinese. I do believe that westerners misunderstood what was happening, and then passed the misunderstanding along to their lineage. Part of the problem in martial arts today. Oh it is a kids class from 1939? Well that explains a lot! I'm glad they didn't take lessons from British School Masters.
Jeff C., I agree with much of what you have said. I am not completely sure how kids should be handled, other than they should not ever be placed in danger. I know many parents who don't want to be the “bad guy” when it comes to disciplining their children. I wonder if any expect you to do that part of their job for them? Maybe something for you to look out for? I think you have a good approach in the way you choose to handle your students. But I am curious if you set the expectations from day one? Do you give them a speech about what they can expect and what you expect from them?
Torgjorn, Students leave for many reasons. People have told me about their experiences and why they would leave the martial arts. I am surprised that no one ever mentions the physical rigors of the art. Not one person said “It was just to tough for me.” But they have many other reasons that they leave. In many cases it is the Sensei that loses their respect. Now some people talked about a place in town where the instructor is Asian. There is certainly a cultural difference. I think this explains things. Based upon who the Sensei is, and who I know these people to be, then I think I would give him a try anyway.
Prince Loeffler
08-03-2010, 00:26
Mert-
Many is the martial arts instructor who routinely points to a code of ethics on the wall and tell students to follow it. Many is the martial arts instructor who gives lessons in philosophy. Otherwise martial arts would be a sport like golf or gymnastics for example.
May I ask you this ? If a sensei is known to tell his students to visit brothels and get liqoured up , start fights...Would you still want to study with that sensei ?
May I ask you this ? If a sensei is known to tell his students to visit brothels and get liqoured up , start fights...Would you still want to study with that sensei ?
It really depends upon the context in wich the statement was made. It also depends upon what culture the Sensei comes from. For Japanese culture it is almost mandatory to visit a brothel at least once in your life. :cool2: If a person says "I am going to make you a good fighter." and that's all, then my expectations of them are nothing more. If they preach on codes of ethics and honor and the like and then said that, I am not so sure.
I am sure I am not going to visit a brothel or start fights. Getting liquored up from time to time seems ok. But I doubt I would have much in common with people doing these things. So I might take a weapons class or something but I doubt I would be a life long devotee.
Mert- There are places for naming names but I thought this place was classy joint where you don't do that.
Hi Morgan --- BudoSeek is a classy joint, in large part because folks here are willing to call out riff-raff within its ranks and in the martial arts community at large (check out the Japanese martial arts forums, in particular Ninpo / Ninjutsu), and moderators look out for bashing without substance.
Calling out a fake ninja is a good thing. Calling out a chain of martial arts schools with which "sexual predators" and "an instructor with a 'very long arrest record' teaching teens" are affiliated is a societal imperative. I can understand how you may not feel comfortable doing so here, but if you have documentation supporting your position, it would be a bold and yes, classy thing to do. You could also engage the media, Better Business Bureau, and consumer-advocacy groups/websites.
Here's a news story about a guy in Texas who's reportedly a poster boy for just about everything that needs calling out in the martial arts (seriously: dubious high rank in an art with a questionable history, goes by the title "grand master" and founded a martial arts hall of fame, invokes "Ninjas" for marketing purposes, evidence has been gathered that he may have abused trust as a means to abuse students) --> http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/94770864.html
It is much better to create a web page entitled “ABC company RUN!” so when a busy mom is googling ABC company, she can get all of the info in one handy place. Most people will never think to come and look on forums like this for info. I had googled ABC company, and didn't get much but 4 and 5 star reviews by students. . . .
Do a Google search using the following keyword string (reasonable hypothetical search by a concerned busy mom seeking quality martial arts instruction in your state), and note the top search result:
trustworthy martial arts instructor texas
Don't underestimate the spiders, LOL!
(So even if you choose not to name names, your thread is already in a position to at least give would-be martial arts consumers in your neck of the woods valuable food for thought.)
American Street Karate is a legitimate art? And I googled the guy's name, and yea, there is plenty of great press about him. The whole time the guy was some pervert too! Of course I haven't found a conviction yet. This chain of schools had 3 convictions. They installed security cameras, but that was it. I thought thier background checks just weren't good enough to weed out freaks. But now it seems that maybe they didn't even do background checks. They just put whoever out there to teach their students. Because I have heard rumors that there is a convicted bank robber teaching at another school, and a person wearing an ankle monitor at another. Cameras inside the dojo don't stop people being approached outside the dojo. wich this article points out. I had done some research and discovered that your States Attourney General's office can actually do a quite thorough background check on anyone. It supposedly doesn't cost more than $120.00, even less in some states. But what really irked me was that when I was talking to my Sensei, and suggesting that a better background check could be done I was told "Yea you can do any kind of background check you like, but how much does it cost?" then they walked away. Now this school gets on average 200.00 per month per student. If you figure 20 students....well then why the hell would someone be complaining about keeping a kid safe? :hot:
I would post many things, but I want proof, not rumors. The sexual predators I found newspaper articles announcing thier conviction in a court a of law. I think that is a solid case. The rest I cannot prove....it is merely rumor at this point. I want proof though. I don't really care to spread gossip.
Webmaster
08-03-2010, 21:11
Morgan, I agree with your reasons for not naming names. When it comes to calling someone out because of bogus credentials or something of that nature, that's one thing. However, when we are talking in terms of an actual crime, that is a whole different story. If someone has been arrested or convicted of a crime, then by all means, name the names. However, if a person is suspected of having committed a crime, then naming names here is simply not appropriate. Instead, any naming needs to happen to the police.
With regard to the background check, I am totally in favor of that for any individual who works with children. So little league coaches, teachers, day camp workers, and martial arts instructors, should all be checked before they can be hired. Many States actually require this by force of law, and I would be very surprised to learn that Texas is not one of them.
Yes, when you apply for a business liscense in some states they will require a background check if your business involves children. But if you didn't bother to get a business liscense, then you could get around that. Now I am not saying where I was that is the case, but it has happened before in the same company.
There are dojo's where a man with half a pinky finger will occassionally show up and collect envelopes of cash. You never really know what could go down in a place like that. I would expect places like this to have some troubles. But if you got to a dojo in anytown USA I would expect things to be much different.
I have discovered there are quite a few places out there with problems. ABC company is not the only one. So although I don't agree with thier motives and business practices, I am not entirely sure about singling them out by name. I mean if they close thier schools where else could people go? Are they going to find any place better?
I mean if they close thier schools where else could people go? Are they going to find any place better?
Morgan --- Is this really the only place in town that teaches halfway decent self defense?
JWhiteSensei
08-04-2010, 07:31
Well, David, i think I will carry on the tradition. I plan on passing that story on to my Senior students as well.
Mert, I plan to find out. I went to 1 place and I started to ask what I thought were reasonable questions. The guy started to get angry. So I will scratch that one off the list! lol
The place where I was going actually has excellent martial arts instruction. The way it is taught and also you are putting into practice what you have learned with different people of different sizes who actually give you some resistance. Well....a few of us would do that to each other anyway. ;) From what I have heard that is where the other places in town come up short. I heard the stories of 8 other places from 1 person. The most harmless seems the be "An old fat kempo guy who slaps himslef around". :laugh: Now this guy is great but supposedly just doesn't give instruction to clearly. And I heard that from another person as well. But I asked both of the students if they said anything to him and they both replied "You don't question instructors." I am going to ask them where they got the impression that you don't question instructors next time I see them.
So I am completely perplexed by the MA scene around here. I will do some further research before I form an opinion.
sean_stonehart
08-04-2010, 13:49
Morgan, where at in Texas are you? Maybe some of us could give a recommendation for your area?
Thanks Sean. I plan to kick over every rock I can find and see what crawls out. :laugh: I am sure I will find every place one way or another. If I don't find anything suitable then I might be asking.
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