View Full Version : " Why Kung Fu Won't Work In Combat!! "
First off i'm so tired of hearing ppl say kung fu does'nt work in combat i wanna just.
!@#$% :rocket: somebody.
Ok i'm joking about !@#$% somebody?:laugh:
But i was reading some post when i saw a guy who'd been studiing kung fu for 10yrs say that his school did no sparring and he felt he could'nt use his kung fu in a fight.It took you 10yrs of training to figure something was wrong with your training? :eek: Doh!!
I have to admit at one time i was worried about my kung fu in a real fight or even a NHB type tournament.That was yrs ago back before i started training like my life depended on it.Because when the time comes that i need to use my kung fu in a fight my life must be depending on it.I've had many fights over my life. When i was alot younger of course.The area of miami,fl where i live it's a requirement just to walk on the sidewalk.I've never had to use my martial arts to really protect myself i was always good enough without martial arts.
Now although i've never had to really use my martial arts to defend myself i have used them to try them out.I also try to spar semi- full contact with no gloves or padding as much as possiable.Which is usually once or twice a week against my sifu and sihing.I prefer it be against my sihing because it's painful against sifu.
Most ppl when they spar do nothing but kickboxing.So how are you using kung fu when you kickbox? When we spar we're using tiger claws,snakefist strikes,monkey and mantis fist,chin na,etc.........We're trying our techniques as close as possiable to attack level. I'm not saying that no one's getting hurt ,but we try to limit it as much as possiable.Also most ppl just wanna learn kung fu they're not really putting in the time and devotion it takes to be good at fighting.My sifu teaches us for free yet there's still only three of us learning.
" Why"
Because ppl quit when they see how hard we have to train and feel the pain of trying to do a proper horse stance for 1 hr.My bestfriend is one of the three of us learning from sifu and he has'nt been to class in months.He ask about it everyday and has me show him what we're learning ,but he's scared to go because sifu is going to work him hard.Sifu is very hard but one of the greatest ppl you'll ever know.I look to him as a second father in every sense of the word.Infact he and i talk about things my father does'nt even know about me.
Back to my point sorry guy's/gals
I see post about kung fu taking yrs to be able to fight with very good and not being effective in fights. "Bull Puckie" You can defend yourself with 1 weeks training in kung fu."If" you train and practice like you're supposed to.Most ppl i was one of them don't train or practice like they're supposed to.You kinda walk thru the motions half a$$ and expect it to work like magic someday when you need it ."Good Luck" because you're going to need it when you try that technique.
There's no style of kung fu that takes yrs to be able to fight with that's a myth and nonsense.Even Tai Chi can be used in combat if you're trained how to from the start.So many ppl overlook the basics trying to learn Monkey Style,Drunken Boxing,and any style they saw jet li use in his last movie.The more you learn kung fu you see you already had it in your basics it just has a different twist.I for the longest time wanted to learn monkey style now that i've learned some i see i'd already learned half of it ,but just did'nt have my eyes open to it.The more advanced stuff you learn you notice you already knew it from your basics.Why do you think styles like Monkey,Drunken Monkey,Eight Drunken Immortals,Black Tiger,etc....Require you to have a strong foundation of the basics of kung fu?
Because if you don't know and understand the basics these styles are of no use to you.Because they require the basics for them to work period!
Most of all you need a Great teacher not a good teacher!Because someone carries the title Sifu does'nt mean they're able to teach it properly.It takes alot of understanding and patience to be able to break something down for everyone to see and understand.I found this out the hard way.Just because it was so clear in my eyes i thought my students were able to see it the sameway ,but some ppl don't see things like you do.Some ppl see things from a whole different angle than the one you're putting in their face.I did'nt have the patience i thought i had to work those type of problems out.
In closing if you don't understand how to use your kung fu in combat then there's a problem in 1 of 3 areas.
1.Either you're doing something wrong(a)Not training properly or(b)Not paying enough attention to your sifu.
2.Your sifu is doing something wrong.(a) Not taking the time to explain or show technique properly or (b) Does'nt know how to show or explain technique properly.
3.A combonation of both 1 and 2 together in one form or another.
In alot of cases the sifu give the masses what they want. If they only want forms that's what they're given.That's why many schools have closed door students or backroom students that no one outside of this click gets to see what they're doing.Because sifu feels that these are the students that really want to do something with their training.
jeff
http://www.geocities.com/jmd161/img0007a.gif
aiki craig
02-05-2003, 21:18
Greetings from a world away.
I think you hit the nail on the head with your thread. :toast:
I would guess many people at one time or another doubt their training because they have never used it for real. Maybe its themselves they really dont trust , and its not the style thats at fault. In a majority of systems the training is designed to cover many aspects such as, strength training, breathing, Ki, flexability, awareness, timing etc, and all this without even getting to the training for the self defence.:nono: :nono:
Unfortunately people are after a quick remedy without putting the training in. Its usually the people that quit after a short training life, that seem to write negative articles etc about clubs.:cool: Remember if certain clubs were that bad, they would have no students at all or maybe even have the law looking at them.
Craig Andrew
Aikido Yuishinkai New Zealand
Craig,
Thanks for the support!
jeff:)
Jeff Burger
02-05-2003, 22:39
For along time I saw Kung Fu as mostly useless.
I tried a couple of schools after getting my black belt in Karate just to study some other arts. Both were highly recommended instructors...neither IMHO were schols that were teaching students any type of realistic self defense...if any at all.
Then I meet a guy who did Wing Chun. I had always wanted to look into Wing Chun cause I ahd heard alot about it and it being a core art for JKD which I was interested in but hadnt studied yet.
I was pretty disappointed but he just wasnt very good.
I later took up Kung Fu again when I moved to Boston cause there was school near where I worked and I wanted to elarn some weapons forms and they said they would teach me.
There was alot of talent at that school but it wasnt being put into class.
My past experience got me free classes teaching there, from there I was able to pull some of that talent out of them for myself.
Most importantly I got to see CMA wasnt all crap.
I had made 2 trips to Japan and 1 to Phillipines when I decide I would go to China.
I was 225lbs and all muscle when I meet Lam Beng Heng.
Lam's personal art was Eagle Claw but I learned Nam Kune Bok Tui (Southern Fist Northern Leg) from him.
Id say its more of a kickboxing JKD theory than a set cut out style.
It combined some Choy Lay Fut, Wing Chun, Tam Tui, Xing Yi, and Tai Chi.
Lam was very impressive great at doing and great at teaching, he still one of the most inspiring MA I have meet to date.
This was very combat oriented CMA. I went to Lam 4 summers in a row for a total of 11 months.
I later went to a very large school in the north at the suggestion of some top wushu competitors ( Siongjian).
There are over 4000 students and over 400 teachers.
They did do alot of competition forms stuff and I did learn some thnigs for my school to compete in (hand and weapons forms) as well Sanda, Praying Mantis and White Crane (I wanted White Crane simple cause thats where Karate came from...it was interesting to see the differences and similarities).
The Mantis teacher Wong Gwong Wu was really good and very serious in that it be combat oriented above all things.
Mr. Zhuo the Sanda coach had coached several national champs.
I really think it was better for me and probably a better idea for others to start in something easier to become effcient quickly at and then try CMA. (Boxing, Muay Thai, Sanda, BJJ...something immediately combat worthy).
I think its like learning math...you have to learn addition and subtraction before multipication and division...CMA seems to be a more complex math.
I do like competive Wushu forms for my students and for myself...it keeps me flexible...I think of it like a balistic yoga...which isnt far from the truth.
Having a school I need to have things for students besides fighting. If I had a just fighting school I dont think Id have enough students to stay open.
I do try to gear them towards hard sparring and they do learn the applications for their form's moves, but they are really trained in kicboxing or grappling classes.
Although when it comes to kickboxing things often all look the same I have been able to bring into the ring some specifically CMA tactics.
I went to Thailand last year to train Muay Thai, get certified form them to teach, fight there and try to use some specifically CMA tactics against the what I beleive are the best kickboxers.
Some worked better than I had hoped...some need more work.
Wish I could be the guy to champion CMA at the pro level against these guys but Im 35 now and the clock is ticking...maybe Ill be the coach of that champion.
I have even considered closing my school here and going to China or Thailand for a long period of time if not permanent and training fighters there.
There just doesnt seem to be alot of people here interested in competing full contact.
I took a freindly challenge with Mr. Zhuo. let me train your #2 team for 2 months and see how they do against his #1 team...we lost but there was noticable improvement.
Currently my school is somewhat styleless...we are The Academy of Integrated Martial Arts...the Karate they do is basically the Ashihara version of Kyokushinkai, wushu is done mostly in forms, the grappling is just grappling (Judo , Jiu Jitsu, Sambo...whatever we get our hands on) the kickboxing is styleless but the basics are Muay Thai and then Karate, various CMA, Kali, boxing added in as things progress.
As my skill gets better I find more CMA in my Karate and Mauy Thai and are able to understand and use CMA more.
CMA is the long road but I feel it goes further.
Jeff
Sometimes i express things the wrong way.
I was hoping no one would take this the wrong way.I'm not good putting things into words because i think alot faster than my two fingers can type.:D
I've been on both sides of the fence in my 21yrs of martial arts.I've been a bad student and a bad teacher ,but my sifu has brought me to the otherside i feel im a pretty good student and i know i'm a much improved teacher now.I know it takes patience and understanding of different peoples ways and styles to truly teach someone martial arts.
Plus a full understanding yourself of what you're teaching helps.:D
Jeff i got your e-mail on the program i'll answer you shortly.
Thanks Bro!
jeffhttp://www.geocities.com/jmd161/img0007a.gif
Jeff Burger
02-06-2003, 08:24
Let me stay closer to the question...
Why doesnt it work?
Format.
No one questions whether Muay Thai is effective or not (at least logically) same with say BJJ.
CMA has all kinds of techniques, including everythnig Muay Thai has and more so why does Mauy Thai usually clobber CMA (dont count tournaments rigged by China)?
Because the format.
Thailand has lots of opportunities for pro fighters. There are lots of poor kids who will go to the local Mauy Thai and coach and ask to be trained. The live and train with the coach and when they are fighting pro the coach will get back his money for food, housing and training.
And the Thais love Muay Thai...its on TV everyday and there schools, bars, night clubs, stadiums having fights all the time...some 7 nights a week.
That just creates a dynamic China does not have.
Alot of the guys I meet doing Sanda really dont want to be there.
Coaches will lok at stuents and decide whether they are going to do northern styles or southern styles and if the kid doesnt fit anything well he / she is off to Sanda. Rarely have I seen people picked for Sanda cause they were gifted.
China is doing the same thing now with other olympic hopefulls, taking people who look like they are not going to cut it in their current event and throwing them into Sanda. Its even used as a threat to make them train harder (run faster, jump higher, lift more...whatever or you will go to sanda and get beat up for a living).
Mauy Thai is loved in Thailand.
Sanda is looked down upon in China...not much different than how most Americans view boxers...morons, animals, people from rough backgrounds making $$$ beating people up, brain damaged....
Why doesnt it work...you cant do what you dont do.
Onceyou take hard sparring out of your format you have taken a bad turn.
Moves start looking prettier or more esoteric and the philosophies sound good but dont really float in the real world.
Jeff
kung-Fu/Tai-Chi
02-17-2003, 14:02
jmd161:
I think you were bang on with why people can't seem to make Kung-Fu work in combat.
My Sifu is also known for his very hard workouts but the workouts are based on who's in the class and what level there at.
If there is a new person then the workout is made easy for them but chalanging.
Auxillary Priest
05-22-2003, 04:25
People who say Kung Fu doesn't work in a fight have either; not trained with a good teacher or, more likely, lack the passion and dedication that is essencial to becoming a warrior. I believe that if you train with all that have (and more), no matter what the art, you can become a confident fighter. I also agree that most if not all martial artists go through a period where they are unsure of their ability but this usually passes with continued training.
what is sanda anyway? never heard of it?
Jeff Burger
06-11-2003, 07:05
Welcome to Budoseek Tomojin
Per forum rules please include your real full name.
Sanda... Is Chinese Kick Boxing.
San = 3
Da = hit
Kick, punch, throw
Leg kicks are also allowed.
Id compare it to Muay Thai but no knees or elbows but alot more throws are legal.
They fight on a raised platform with no ropes, you can get points for throwing them out of the ring.
Some matches are fought on a floating ring in a pool.
There is also what people refer to as Military Sanda. Much of the same tactics only with a no rules real combat mentality (eye and throat strikes, control techniques...).
Jeff
Kyuusaku
06-11-2003, 09:09
Uh oh.
I'm pretty sure that the 'san' in sanda is not '3.' It is something
like scatter or scattered, but I don't know the tone of the syllable...
The sanda matches fought on a floating ring in a pool sound freaky. I've never heard of that... It might be fun, though! :)
Edward Cha
San in "San-da" or San-shou" means "free" or "to scatter", and so refers to "free hitting" or "free fighting"....meaning to use whatever is necessary to defeat your opponent.
Sincerely,
Jeff Burger
06-11-2003, 22:20
I could be wrong...Ill try to look it up.
I was told san = 3
Jeff
Jeff Burger
06-11-2003, 23:23
From online Chinese - English dictionary
san1 - three
san2 - long-haired/shaggy
san3 - umbrella/parasol
san4 -l eisurely/loosen/powdered medicine/to scatter/to come loose
san5 - to mix (of powders)
san6 - adjourn/scatter/
da = hit and shuo = hand.
Scatter hit or scatter hand doesnt make sense.
Free hit or free hand would make sense cause its free fighting.
The only things that came up for free reffered to free as in no payment.
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
What online dictionary are you using? "Saam" is "3", but depending on dialects, it can be pronounced differently (as in "San" as you've listed). The links below will show the difference between the words for "free" and for the number "3". Of course, like I said before, it may be pronounced differently by some native speakers (I have not heard any myself).
Number 3:
http://132.229.12.115/cgi-bin/dict.php?dbase=ccdict&mode=english&first=0&pagesize=20&sound=0&lang=en&beijing=pinyin&canton=yale&meixian=default&fields=jyutping,english&show=frequent&edit=&query=three
Free:
http://132.229.12.115/cgi-bin/dict.php?dbase=ccdict&mode=english&first=0&pagesize=20&sound=0&lang=en&beijing=pinyin&canton=yale&meixian=default&fields=jyutping,english&show=frequent&edit=&query=free
(first character...number 8 definition)
Sincerely,
Jeff Burger
06-12-2003, 06:30
Saam / Sahm is Cantonese...not the national language in China.
Thats a good dictionary though...thanks for the link.
(Ill look through it later.)
Jeff
Ah!, there's the confusion...you were refering to Mandarin....
The term San-Daa or San-Shou are Cantonese terms as I have known it, so I assumed you were trying to use cantonese words....excuse my assumption. ;)
In Mandarin (standard Chinese), the term would be "xin-da" (again meaning "free hitting/fighting").
Sincerely,
Dutch,
Thanks for posting the link to that dictionary!
Question,
Do you happen to know a on-line translator program or website i could use to translate my Sigungs school website in my signature?
jeff :)
Unfortunately Jeff, I do not know of any translators for Chinese Characters at this time. On my (my Sifu's) website, I have, when needed, put both the English and Character version together so people can understand it.
Sorry, I couldn't help you. If you ever run into a program that will do it, please let me know, because I would love to have it.
Sincerely,
Dutch,
If i ever find one that really works i'll let you know. :D
Most of them translate some words ,but not all others just give me ?????? :confused:
I guess i have to keep using the one i already have?
It works perfect when i use it.
It's called
"Sifu" :D
jeff:)
Hahahahahaha :D :D :D :D
That's the same program I use!!! :D
Originally posted by Dutch
That's the same program I use!!!
Dutch,
It's a great program ain't it?
It never fails or Crashes:D
I wish i could say the same for my computer!:whack:
jeff:)
I've heard of the 'san' in san shou/da meaning free a few times before.
Probably alot of people in CMA could train harder. But I think quite a few do train hard enough to expect to be confident in their abilities, but they aren't. I was reading an online transcription of Jack Dempsey's Championship Fighting, and one thing which really fits in here is: "To protect yourself with your fist you MUST become a knockout puncher."
http://www.marcobresciani.com/sanda.html
Jeff Burger
07-08-2003, 17:00
Oh boy with a link to train at Shaolin Temple
:rolleyes:
Ill have to look to see how it is written in Chinese.
I was told Sanda San = 3 and Da = hit because you can use hand foot or throw.
I could be wrong...its not something I would have cared to question or look into...its jsut speak it aint the stuff.
If it was free fighting it would be Sandajia...da means hit...dajia means fighting....not sure about the word for free....Im not fluent...and its not a popular word in conversation in China.
To them free means you dont have to pay for it....and that doesnt happen either.
Sanda is free fighting but Im uncertain if that is the direct translation.
Either way I like it. I wish Muay Thai had the throws of Sanda.
I dont like all the padding they wear in Sanda...it takes away from body shots.
If you fight in China...box. Most have pretty poor hand skill besides lacking upper body strength.
Ill bet you are not going to out endurance them so dont try.
The side kick is a general favorite amongst the Chinese (kind of like round kick for the Thais) so I would say stay away from it...theirs and yours.
It will often be their best weapon and because it is such a popular main weapon there most have a good defense against it...so do something else.
Same as dont try to out round kick a Thai.
Jeff
Hey Jeff,
I gave you the direct translation already along with the characters for it. San-da means "scattered" "hits" and San-shou means "scattered" "hands". It is their way of saying "free to hit anyway you want (scatter your techniques everywhere). I do speak and read chinese, that's why I was trying to help.
Sincerely,
Jeff Burger
07-09-2003, 07:40
Thanks
I still want to look up the character for myself.
Im not really fluent I get around conversation wise by myself ok and I can read some.
Jeff
Kyuusaku
07-09-2003, 07:52
Originally posted by Dutch
The term San-Daa or San-Shou are Cantonese terms as I have known it, so I assumed you were trying to use cantonese words....excuse my assumption. ;)
In Mandarin (standard Chinese), the term would be "xin-da" (again meaning "free hitting/fighting").
Um, that's not right, I don't think...
I've seen 'Sanda' and 'Sanshou' written in Chinese (so scatter is correct) but I've never heard anyone say Xinda?!?! Sanda is fairly famous now, so you see the word fairly often.
Edward Cha
Auxillary Priest
08-08-2003, 04:44
your argument lacks any substance and i would be shocked to find out that you were over the age of 16 and have ever trained in the art of gung fu (or any art for that matter). and i apologise for my ignorance but what exactly is freestyle martial arts the, system in which you claim to train. It's unfortunate that you don't have anything better to do except launch attacks on things that you obviously don't understand. I was also highly offended by the fact that you used the image of Miyamoto Musashi who strongly believed in training in the Way of the warrior as well as having respect for others two concepts of which you have no knowledge of.
There is also what people refer to as Military Sanda. Much of the same tactics only with a no rules real combat mentality (eye and throat strikes, control techniques...).
OOOH I like that sounds like Krav
Maga
Terry Foster
Jeff Burger
08-09-2003, 06:16
Military Sanda Id say is much like Krav Maga.
But
When you see Military Sanda demos most if not all are not trained in the military.
They will go to a school and throw uniforms on some better students for the demo.
Chinese army is hurting for people now.
It doesnt pay much (it used to not pay at all...room, food, clothing)but promises a job when you get out.
But now those jobs arent looking as good as other possible jobs.
They do little sparring in their Military Sanda training.
They do some unusual training though. Fighting around objects...tree, table...
Lots of make shift weapons too.
Jeff
Originally posted by Jeff Burger
Saam / Sahm is Cantonese...not the national language in China.
Thats a good dictionary though...thanks for the link.
(Ill look through it later.)
Jeff
I know Sam is fukienese and San is mandarin. Shou is mandarin.
hi
kung fu is not used in real fights beques if a real kung fu fighter uses kung fu in a real fight the other fithers whont live for mor than 10 minets thats why.
and somthing els if you have confidenc in youre self and cotrole youre self and stay com you wont forget what to do and when and wer to hit beques if lose you tempretore in a fight simply you whont be able to use youre budy and youre mind at the same time and you will be defited easely.
kung fu : firs think then strike eaven if you have only 5 seconds to deside.
(MY KUNG FU BETTER THAN YOURS!!!)
well now I know why the kung fu stylist in the no holds bared matches, The tough man competions, ultimats fighrting championships, or ki fights get the crap beat out of them EVERY TIME.
They don't use real kung Fu, because every body would die in five seconds.
Terry Foster
Jeff Burger
09-13-2003, 12:04
Initially I was going to close this thread cause its kind of a stupid trolling question....but.
There is some truth in it...you just dont so many if any CMAist in top level full contact competition.
Also Im a good sport about that fact.
But Id really like to see some legit arguments for or against it.
Jeff
Well I quess if i had to sight one fighter that possible could hold his own in a real fighting competion it woud possibly be Chung Lee
One Awsome fighter. but he only fights in a controled inviroment
(San shou I think)
I have never seen a fighter make the transition so smoothly from punching and kicking to throws. no hesitation and usually executed flawlessly.
But them maybe he coulded'nt do it in a real fight.
Terry Foster
P.S.
Thanks for having a sence of humor, and being a sport.
Jeff Burger
09-13-2003, 12:35
Cung Lee is a good fighter a great athelete and one hell of a nice guy.
Yes he competes San Shuo...but. People have complained that he doesnt have any CMA training. he just chose to take his grappling and kick boxign experience into that arena.
Jeff
xenophon
09-21-2003, 20:54
"Alot of the guys I meet doing Sanda really dont want to be there.
Coaches will lok at stuents and decide whether they are going to do northern styles or southern styles and if the kid doesnt fit anything well he / she is off to Sanda. Rarely have I seen people picked for Sanda cause they were gifted.
China is doing the same thing now with other olympic hopefulls, taking people who look like they are not going to cut it in their current event and throwing them into Sanda. Its even used as a threat to make them train harder (run faster, jump higher, lift more...whatever or you will go to sanda and get beat up for a living).
Mauy Thai is loved in Thailand.
Sanda is looked down upon in China...not much different than how most Americans view boxers...morons, animals, people from rough backgrounds making $$$ beating people up, brain damaged...."
I was wondering were you got this info Jeff? You see I spent two years training in San-Da in china and all the students there were paying students and they very much wanted to be there. Also we did use elbows and knees for strikes. My teacher did several seminars in Thailand and won some open competions there as well. So you see when I read your reply it made me a bit uneasy.
As for Kng-Fu not working in combat, I think all it comes down to is the teacher. There are no bad students only a bad teacher. That's all, One of my students and freind is serving in the Isreali special forces, one day he came to me and told me how the training he got in Xing-Yi and San-da serves him in doing his duty to his country, I think there is not a better test for combat then the army. As for Muay-Thai I think from what I've seen so far from their training that they train to fast and burn out to early. My teacher Mr Zhang Ya-Kui has a system of traing which is more gradual but eventually keeps you healthier (as much as possible for a full contact system) so you can fight for a longer time. He is 38 years old and still competes regularly, and wins as well.
Every coin has two sides I guess!
May all beings expirience true joy!
Hillel Z. Israel
Kyuusaku
09-21-2003, 21:42
Originally posted by yentao
I know Sam is fukienese and San is mandarin. Shou is mandarin.
San -> the 'San' in Sanshou is not Sam in any Chinese dialect.
Sam '3' can be Fukienese or Cantonese (or even Korean). Probably even Shanghainese, but I dunno anything about Shanghainese.
As for not having many Chinese martial artists in martial arts competitions... well, I suppose people just don't like doing Chinese martial arts? Contemporary wushu and sanda are mostly done because they make money, not because they like it. How many traditional stylists are left in China? How many out of China? Inside China, even the traditional stylists tend to do 5,6 styles - more is more fun, but not better.
Sanda is not Chinese martial arts. It doesn't even look like Chinese martial arts.
There aren't a lot of Muay Thai people in top level competitions, either, right? Even though there are a lot of people in Thailand doing it. It's kind of hard for these people in Thailand or China to go out to the UFC, I guess? (Besides regulations and stuff.)
Edward Cha
Concerning the original question why gung fu won't work in real combat
There are several things that I am aware of.
1) A lot of Chinese Gung Fus out there focus tremendously on their forms. These gung fus look like dancing. Nothing wrong with forms but some styles practice to the point that they forget to teach the other aspects of gung fu. I know some clubs that in order to teach you the technique they show you the form since the techniques are contained within the forms. Nothing wrong there but it takes longer to figure the techniques out.
2) A lot of gung fus out there are also soft style only. That is to say that when they get hit hard it takes them out fast. Excellent techniques but in real combat when they get hit. . .Higher levels are usually a different matter but in the beginning stages. . .
3) In a lot of Chinese Martial Arts a lot of the techniques are with held from the students until they reach a certain point in the training. If ever. Some styles only teach their entire art to two or three students, usually the ones that are chosen to carry on the art. The disciples so to speak. This leaves the others missing key information and techniques.
4) Some styles do not train in combat. Don't shadow box, spar, anything. When they get into a fight its their first time and they are ill prepared for combat.
5) Other reasons have been listed in this forum such as the teacher not teaching properly or the student isn't putting as much effort into it as she/he should.
6) There are so many styles out there, too. Some are great quality but others aren't. This is where one of the greatest problems lay. They are all called gung fus. So if someone sees a nickle and dime quality gung fu they now think gung fus suck. Why? They presume that gung fu is gung fu. After all, if you learn TKD, judo, or another of the popular arts you know that if you learn that art it does not matter what school you go to. The art is the same. But just because you learn a certain style of gung fu doesn't mean you know all gung fus.
Since there are thousands of styles and unfortunately thousands of nickle and dime quality ones a lot of the above situations occur. But gung fus DO work in combat. The quality ones. With the right teacher. The right student. And sometimes it takes a while for a student to find the right gung fu that will "fit them like a glove."
Other stuff could be added but this is enough for now. Gung fus are great in combat (mine works, at least) IF applied correctly and trained correctly.
Jeff Burger
09-22-2003, 05:44
"I was wondering were you got this info Jeff? You see I spent two years training in San-Da in china and all the students there were paying students and they very much wanted to be there. Also we did use elbows and knees for strikes. My teacher did several seminars in Thailand and won some open competions there as well"
Knees and elbows are not allowed in San Shou.
Yes the students are paying student, mostly until they are picked up by teams.
They may have been happy to be training with a foreigner. Many are proud that they are strong from San Shou training, but in there younger years may not have wanted to do San Shou.
I get the information from being there, talking with the coaches and the students.
The large school in the north is definately looking to produce national champs and now olympic champs.
When Chinese students sign up there they sign up for 4 years and they live there and have no choice in their training. They are not hobby enthusiast.
Most pay, but some are students who didnt make the cut in another olympic sport.
There have many tournaments between CMA and Muay Thai...if the Chinese have a chance to rig the tournament they will...and do and have.
I won some bouts in Thailand too...all things being equal Id still put my $$$ on the Thai.
Jeff
mantisman
05-20-2004, 21:36
The number three as i understand is pronounced sarn(writen san). San in san shou is like sand without the "d".
mantisman
05-20-2004, 22:10
As other people have touched upon the reason CMA's don't work in actual combat is the fact that there are a lot of fakes out there. Also a lot of students train as a past time/hobbie/casual interest. These people go out of the class thinking they can rely on their training.(Because they don't understand the lack of effort that they have put in.) They then get themselves beaten badly and blame the style. This is not just limited to CMA's but is true of all martial arts. You cannot expect to be profficient in any task if you put in a half heated effort learning the task. Many people come to class and are just going through the motions and will not learn to apply what they have learnt. Some people are not even aware of the lack of dedication they display and some simply do not care. These people cannot expect any art to work for them no matter how many years spent training.
Lack of a passionate teacher also has the same effect.
On the other side of the coin you cant expect students to get involved if you lack the personal skills needed to address the different ways people learn. To conclude talent = effort.
Jesse BYrd
05-28-2004, 01:25
I think the answer to the question of why kung fu doesn't work for people is that they never developed "kung fu". I mean the words mean great skill aquired through long and dedicated work and discipline. If there is no long dedicated work, and therefore no skill developed, there can be no kung fu. If you don't win sparring, you won't win fighting. If you can't defeat your own internal enemies, you will lose to yourself. There are of course many shades of grey ,and many ranges of limitations people are hindered by. The potential of a martial system should not come into question until the point that the possibilities of the system have been integrated into one's body. If you can beat up all your classmates, but get your butt kicked by your teacher, then there is probably something missing. Hopefully in most cases it's the student who is not putting forth the effort, and not the teacher neglecting a student's training, or representing a fractioned system as complete. :mad: I think though that the harder it is to learn a system the more benefit one can reap from it. For me going from hapkido to baguazhang was like finding the other 90% of the glacier hidden under water. I was both relieved and surprised to find out how much I still had to learn :D "If you practice to limit yourself, you'll succeed."-George Wood, my baguazhang teacher.
corsarius
07-26-2004, 20:05
I think everyone's already made the point that kung-fu can and does work if taught properly, but the challenge is finding someone who teaches it as such! A year ago I moved cities for work (okay, I didn't actually move the whole city - I just moved TO a different city :) ), and on arrival I searched for a decent KF school - preferably one that would integrate well with my earlier training... what I encountered were any number of schools which taught collections of forms without the content - no sparring (and definitely no contact sparring!), no significant breaking down of techniques, and a general feeling of apathy from students.
My previous instructor charged only the fees required to rent our training hall several nights a week, and even though the classes were only scheduled for a couple of hours, they often ran to 3 or 4 hours long. The people there trained hard because they were well motivated and saw the value in their art (though plenty of people quit because it was too hard - no beginner likes basic stance training! :) ). Curiously enough, though, the kung-fu worked! People at the school got into on-street altercations and came out well because they were well trained, motivated, and knew their techniques well.
Like most arts it's how it's taught and who's doing it - provided the training is there, most martial arts will do the trick!
Just my opinion.
PS: I never did find a KF school in the new city that was up to scratch, so I ended up leaving KF after 7 or 8 years to take on jujutsu.
Jack Stay
07-27-2004, 09:14
I gots to jump into this discussion with both feet.
Kung fu does (and has for about 800 years) work in combat, Wu shu won't work in combat just as Jiu-jitsu does (and has for about 500 years) work in combat just as Ju-do won't work in combat.
Realistically speaking, it takes an average of ten years of hard work to earn a shodan (1st degree black belt) in Judo, and about five years of similar dedicated training to earn your shodan in Karate, as a rule of thumb.
It takes a long time to gain proficiency in the Asian martial arts!
And it takes a very long time to be good at Kung fu!
A responsible instructor will seperate the 'sheeps from the goats' in his kwoon and or dojo by making a student do a long stretch of boring and repetitive techniques to see how dedicated is that paticular student. If the student quits, good riddance. Kung fu has some nasty and deadly techniques you don't want to teach to the general populace. Wu Shu emphasizes flashy high kicks and leaps that look good on stage or screen, but would be impractical in a fist fight.
Similar to the Meiji Restoration in Japan which diluted the martial training of Jiu-jitsu into 'do'; the communist party of China, ever watchful of counter-revolution, ordered a softening of Kung fu into Wu shu, so the unwashed masses won't get any ideas.
Kung fu is extremely effective in combat, but doesn't comply with the demand of instant gratification in Western culture.
________________________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA. Nidan, Judo/ Nidan, Hakko-Ryu Jiu-jitsu
I think Jack Stay's answer couldn't be better. In my opinion the problem is the quest for instant gratification we find in the western culture. Don't expect less than five years to become good in an asian martial art, but what you get after that can be very rewarding.
Luebbers
07-27-2004, 15:35
I have to disagree with the claim that Judo is not useful for combat. The whole point of Judo was to remove techniques that were too dangerous to practice at full power so that the level of training could be raised. I think Kano made his point pretty well. Almost every martial artist today recognizes that training in a "live" environment, even if it means that you can't use some "deadly" techniques, is absolutely essential to becoming an effective fighter.
Jack Stay
07-27-2004, 19:02
Hello Michael:
I agree that the beauty of Judo is its creation of a 'live' environment in which to train. And this was the inclusion or Randori by Dr. Kano. Judo is extremely valuable for martial arts training because you really throw your opponent and you really choke him out, and you really tap him out using kensetsu-wazas (arm-bars). And in my humble opinion, I think Judo should be used as the basis for all other martial arts training, that is, one should learn Judo first before karate, Jiu-jitsu, kendo, or whatever you prefer.
YET Ju-do is still a humane form of Ju-jitsu, and not particularly 100% effective for combat, though Ju-do does retain some self-defense applications. The Japanese police use Judo during a riot because it is more humane to do foot sweeps with Judo than it is to snap necks and bust arms with Ju-jitsu.
For combat, jiu-jitsu is always preferred over any of the 'do' styles. Again, any modification of Ju-do to make it nastier is only to re-invent Ju-jitsu. But overall I agree with your observation.
______________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA
Nidan - Judo
Nidan - Hakko-Ryu Jiu-Jitsu
I have to disagree with the claim that Judo is not useful for combat. The whole point of Judo was to remove techniques that were too dangerous to practice at full power so that the level of training could be raised. I think Kano made his point pretty well. Almost every martial artist today recognizes that training in a "live" environment, even if it means that you can't use some "deadly" techniques, is absolutely essential to becoming an effective fighter.
Luebbers
07-28-2004, 15:36
I think we just come down on opposite sides of an old argument here. I think that Judo is more effective without the lethal techniques because of the training that comes with this dilution. While Jiu-Jitsu has plenty of crippling techniques, because they can't be trained in a "live" environment, they are not as useful as the "safer" ones learned at full power. I feel that the removal of these techniques in Judo, makes it more effective. But this is like arguing over whether one is for or against the death penalty - it's a debate that has raged since long before I was born, it'll go on long after I'm dead, and it's almost impossible to convince someone on one side that the other side is right.
Jack Stay
07-28-2004, 16:51
I think we just come down on opposite sides of an old argument here. I think that Judo is more effective without the lethal techniques because of the training that comes with this dilution. While Jiu-Jitsu has plenty of crippling techniques, because they can't be trained in a "live" environment, they are not as useful as the "safer" ones learned at full power. I feel that the removal of these techniques in Judo, makes it more effective. But this is like arguing over whether one is for or against the death penalty - it's a debate that has raged since long before I was born, it'll go on long after I'm dead, and it's almost impossible to convince someone on one side that the other side is right.
Actually I think it would be more like comparing bare knuckle boxing to gloved boxing, with bare knuckle boxing being a 'jitsu' and the gloved boxing being a 'do'. Which would be better in a street fight. You wouldn't want to get into a street fight wearing 16oz mitts, so you resort to bareknuckle boxing.
That's the only difference I wanted to compare with jujitsu and judo.
Thanks.
_________________________
John 'Jack' Stay
Boston, MA.
I reluctantly joined this site for fear of conversations like this and now I am forced to add to this inane discussion. Traditional Chinese Boxing (That means the stuff thet've been doing for over 1,000 years not the modern practical martial arts crap) was made for fighting in war, to the death. It has punches,kicks,throws,locks,and body conditioning. How! does doing that not help you in a fight?? Most people don't train properly or aren't doing the real thing. Bottom Line. And Jeff, how is it that you speak and read some chinese, have gone to China to train and say you teach chinese arts but don't believe in their efficacy? That baffles me. You simply do it because it looks nice? Also Sifu is a title of respect. It means you are a guide of life and not just showing people how to hurt other people. This is a very important aspect of Chinese boxing. If you aren't comfortable with that or don't understand it, maybe you shouldn't be teaching it. I believe in strength training, but maybe you should do more practice of forms and less wieght lifting and maybe you will impove your skill and start to reap the true benefits of Chinese Martial Arts.
Jeff Burger
08-31-2004, 17:14
I dont like titles ...sifu, sensei, shihan, kru, master ...bla bla bla.
I like to looka tboth sides of the coin. CMA can be effective, but you have to admit there are alot of CMA practitioners out there that can not fight.
I never liked this thread and its going nowhere so Im closing it.
Also you have bebb asked to sign with your real full name ( its a forum rule).
Jeff
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