Suicidal Thoughts

[dao]

Someone on another thread suggested this poll.

If you live in the United States and are contemplating suicide please, (pretty please, even) call 1-800-784-2433, 1-800-suicide or go to www:suicidehotlines.com. If you live outside of the U.S. please go to a friend and get help. Always remember that killing yourself is a decision which can wait for tomorrow.

BTW: Jim, you don't have to be a moderator to post a poll just check the nifty little box and follow the directions.

[Jim]

Deb,

I did know how to do this but I thought I'd leave it to others as I didn't bring this topic up. At least someone (you) went to the trouble of doing it :)

[TkdWarrior]

no suicidal thougths here i m pretty sure but i want to kill someone :D now i m just making list who is dispensable :p
wat should i do?

[Jen]

This one really struck me. My friend just came home from college a few days earlier then her break was supposed to start. She oded on aspirin. She told me about it and was at my house for a while. It's going to be hard for me not to get upset while she's here. As soon as she did leave I just broke down. I can't stand that she'll go back in 2 weeks and I can't help her. Worse, the hospital wanted to keep her but her parents had their own agendas and wanted her to be checked out. Honestly, she probably needed to be admitted to psych considering what she did.
However, myself, i've never thought of it. I've got so much here i've still go to do.

[tkdcanada]

Never ever thought of it. But I knew a couple of people who actually did it and it's something I just can't get my mind around. I actually want to live forever! (I also know it's not possible). I've always thought of death as an unfair condition of life.

Michleine

[Amber Hensley]

I have attempted suicide twice. First time I slit my wrist but I got really scared and went to my neighbours to go to the hospital. Then the second time I od on aspirin and again I got scared and went to my parents. Finally they put me in counseling and I haven't had suicidal thoughts since.

[dao]

Hi Amber, I'm glad you are feeling better and still among us. :bow:

The bad news is that the link I gave before no longer works, the good news is that I found a Worldwide Service at about.com

I also found what I think is good advice on helping someone who may be suicidal at:

metanoia.org/suicide/whattodo.htm (http://metanoia.org/suicide/whattodo.htm)

Additional I found this site which has lots of suicide related links-

http:psycom.net/depression.central.suicide.html (http://psycom.net/depression.central.suicide.html)

Its been a long day and I am tired.

[Andrew Green]

I actually want to live forever! (I also know it's not possible).

Speak for yourself :P

[dao]

I think she was speaking for herself Andrew :wink2:

[Andrew Green]

I think she was speaking for herself Andrew :wink2:

Ok, not possible for HER, but no one is bursting my bubble :D

[nosh276]

I had an extremely depressing childhood with many problems and have wished and prayed for death many times. I would never commit suicide though, I wouldn't want to have that stain on my soul.

[StanLee]

I had a close friend who tried to kill himself.

He was then 18, his secret fiance was 17. She left him for his best friend.

So he decided to take all the pills in his bathroom cabinet at home, go over to the golf course that is adjacent to his garden and take the lot.

Well that's what he told me when he called me on a deserted sunday afternoon whilst I was alone in my halls of residence at uni.

He sobbed to me about the situation and told me he didn't know what type and amount of pills he took. Worse still, he was hiding somewhere in the golf couse and his parents were not home.

Jebus! Did I panic! Called the local doctors and got put through to a nurse helpline call centre. Luckly in the end, I managed to get through to his parents.

[kmtsd]

In college my former High school squeeze committed suicide... this led to my best friend attempting it (more than once) She is still around(Thank God) She's like my sister. We both still miss our other friend... it was dark times for quite a few years for me and her...
Today, I feel that I've crossed a line and I don't think I will ever feel that low again-no matter what happens to me. I have a great life, good job, karate... with time all wounds heal... that's hard for many young adults/teens to see and I hope that if anyone is thinking about suicide they will reach out to someone and get help.
Thanks for the links.
Candace Hill

[redqueen290]

i dont know, i think its the crowd i hang out with, but i actually have 8 friends who have attempted suicide, 4 of wich were addmitted to a ward. Other than them I know three people have have tried and succeeded in it. And i think that, there are two types of people who atttempt it, the people who want to die, and the people who think they want to die. You can tell the diffrence because the people who dont really want it, get scared, or panic once they realized that they actually are going to die. And the people who do whant it, who really just want to die, they wake up in that hospital bed and say, "Why am i still here?, why cant i just be dead?". Those are usually the people who will try and try again. I think the reason that they tend to try untill they die is because, once your emotionally dead, its only a matter of time before the body goes to.

[KZMiller]

I've thought about it on two levels. One is in contemplation of death as part of meditation, and that included mentally putting myself in a situation where I would be required to take poison or commit ritual suicide. The other was in some low points in life, but I never got so low that I started planning. I think that the low portion young people go through in the late high school and college years is incredibly common. I didn't go as deep as others, but I don't think it was a matter of my problems being any less (or more, or different) than theirs. During that time in life any kind of blow seems catastrophic. I remember seeing so little in my future. I also remember the future being very abstract, out of my control, bleak or simply not worth experiencing.

I learned that the future is not only maleable but that my life *will* change whether I want it or not, and that's part of the exhiliration, not the bummer part of being alive. But then, at that age I believed I knew it all, saw it all clearly, that I had either reached my peak or rock bottom depending on the time and that I had nowhere to go. The world also seemed very limited in possibilities. I never seriously considered that I could literally join the Peace Corp. tomorrow and be out of the country in a very short time, leaving my previous life behind, or join the military, or just start walking.

I wonder what I 'lock into' at my current age. Probably something terribly obvious to someone twenty years older. :bow:

[Mandeigh Wells]

News Link (http://www.healthypages.net/newsstory.asp?newsid=4547) bizzare eh!

[dao]

Actually, I don't think the link between increased suicide rates/thinking in people and people who are taking antidepressents is surprising at all, and I'm even less suprised that there is an increased link in children. Most human drug testing is done on adult men so even by the time a drug makes it to market the effects which can be markidly different in women and children are not well understood and are usually discounted when reported. Additionally when we take these drugs we are playing with our fundemental brain chemistry its amazing how powerful drugs are these days and what they can do to a person's brain.

At one point I was diagnosed with epilepsy (yes, there is a long story there which I'm not going to go into) and given the latest medication at the time which was Tegretol. Within a few days I started having truelly horrendous dizzy spills where three or four times/week where unless I was near a wall or could grab something to stedy myself I would literally fall down. It was fun trying to work through them. Along with the dizzy spells I became very depressed and I remember that I went to the Doctor who diagnosed me and she was convinced that the side effects I was experiencing couldn't possibly be linked to the medication. Anyway, I became suicidal and had a knife in my hand to kill myself when I decided that I owed it to the people around me to at least attempt life without the medication so I kept enough pills to wean myself off them and flushed the rest down the toilet.

I'm lucky in that I didn't have trouble getting of the meds and I didn't go cold turkey but, one of the scarest parts of coming off a drug that alters brain chemistry is that if you go on them and try to come off them cold-turkey there is a really good chance that while starting to adjust to life without the drug that will trigger a suicide attempt and a lot of people die trying to get off the drugs. SO if anybody is out there on anti-depressants feeling worse then ever and you don't trust your Doctor anymore do not go off the medicide cold-turkey either find another Doctor you feel you can trust and follow their directions or come off of them slowly- or which was extremely risky because didn't tell anyone what I was doing which is I used the same schedule as I did getting on to the medicine except in reverse. Additionally, I'm fairly certain that while the people around me knew I was not normal, I don't think anyone realized how desparate and close to death as I really was.

I'm feeling much better now :D

By the way, I don't think that these medicines are fundamentally evil. I know lots of people that are really helped by them but, if you or your children have been prescribed them I'd get at least one if not two or three other Doctor's opinions if they are really needed. And if your kids are on them watch them really carefully.

[redqueen290]

they tried to put me on anti-deppresents once, but i refused. I simple informed them that i would love it if they would give me a prescription to some happy pills because I can sell those for six bucks a pill at school! And you know, i didnt think that excuse would work but it did. :D No ones mentioned it since.

[The Nephilim]

Well a few people I have known in the past have tried it and failed, due to the intervention of me, or the lack of enough pills to take them to where they feel at home. SOme have hung themseves, while others have wrapped their cars round trees in a suicide attempt.

I always turn round and say that if they survive, they should not come back knocking on my door after attempting it. It stops them trying it as it gives them a thought of either seeing their friends and family again.

Me, well once I did. It went on for about 3 days. I stood next to a river and thought of jumping in. Each time I backed down from doing it. Standing next to a cold river in the middle of winter, I figured it would take me about 15 minutes before I would be totally dead. After the third day I went off and knocked on the door of a friend I had not seen for 2 years and talked for a while, then went home and just carried on with life.

[Don Davies]

Ok, not possible for HER, but no one is bursting my bubble :D

Just remember that the only reason we die... is because we accept it as an inevitability ;)

[jakmak52]

I had seriously contemplated suicide about a year ago, I was prescribed Pegasys and Copegus (Interferon & Rebatrol injection therapy Tx) for high levels (4 Million u.i) of HCV virus loads in my system, probably from recreational drug use 30 years ago or a blood transfusion for a gunshot wound I sustained in 1964,were not quite sure how I contracted it. The HCV Tx caused me severe emotional and physical disorders, after three months of Tx, I wanted to die, I went to the local acorn factory and they lowered my Prozac to 20 mg from 40 and redirected me back to my gastroenterologist who stopped the Tx immediately. I feel great now and take Milk thistle for my liver health. I can't compete in sparring any more because I may infect someone if I bleed :o So I just do Kata/forms. :D
My family and friends helped me out of baaaad situation.

[SteyrAUG]

I have thought about it in the context of "I wonder what the hell is wrong with those people?"

You gotta really fork up your life for that to be one of your better options.

[FuzzyHead]

When I was in high school, I think I had, just as most other kids had, suicidal thoughts. Heck, I remember holding a knife to my wrists thinking about killing myself. I never did. After I graduated I felt a lot better, but then a few years later things weren't going well in my life. I felt like a lot of things were wrong. It was during this time of my life that I started to look around at some of my old friends from church. Most of them were doing ok and I wanted to know why. I came back to a relationship with Jesus Christ almost 3 years ago. Since that time I've had an unbelievable amount of joy even though things haven't always been easy. I can only say that Jesus Christ fixed me of some of the things that were wrong.

So yeah, I can say that I've been suicidal.

[RickMatz]

My brother was a suicide. What a stupid waste.

[redqueen290]

My brother was a suicide. What a stupid waste.

You should have more respect for your brother and let go of whatever anger you have against him. I find it so rude that you can refer to your own family member as a "stupid waste". You don't know what he went through, you don't know what happend, you weren't him. So you have no right to judge.

[RickMatz]

Just who the hell are you little girl?

[redqueen290]

Why should it matter who I am? I may be a little girl but honey, in my world, your nothing but an old man. So don't try to pull the age thing on me.

[jakmak52]

Why should it matter who I am? I may be a little girl but honey, in my world, your nothing but an old man. So don't try to pull the age thing on me.

I'm with you Emily, back off dude :mad: Being disloyal to your brother is a disgrace. That's just my opinion :bandit:

[DanielS]

Lets try to keep it civil folks.

I believe he was talking about his brothers death as a stupid waste, not his brother himself.

I have to admit, if my brother killed himself I'd probably harbor a little resentment too.

I dont think that would be "being disloyal" either.

[jakmak52]

Point well taken Daniel :)

[RickMatz]

DanielS took my point.

Who the **** do you people think you are to tell me how I'm supposed to feel about my brother's death.

"Don't pull the age thing on me honey?" What the **** do you know about life... or death for that matter? You're just putting your Barbies away, imagining your an adult.

[Mandeigh Wells]

settle petal...............I believe your comments were missunderstood......please try to keep it nice :)

[redqueen290]

DanielS took my point.

Who the **** do you people think you are to tell me how I'm supposed to feel about my brother's death.

"Don't pull the age thing on me honey?" What the **** do you know about life... or death for that matter? You're just putting your Barbies away, imagining your an adult.

Why do you keep bringing up the age?, I personally don't think it should matter how old somone is. And besides, judging on the way your acting I'd say I know a whole lot more about life and death than you do. Don't be so immature! I argued you on the subject at hand. You started with the personall insults. And besides that, when was reckognizing someones age considered an insult?, What, did you think? I wasn't aware of the fact that I was 15? Oh, and if your such a responsible adult, watch your language, there are little girls on this site.

[Blue Dragon]

i just read this thread :laugh:

ok its not funny but i know you lot are going to give me this
"""you dont no what i went through"""
I just dont see what can make you poeple attempt suicide. I understand poeple go throw certain things that aint good and nice but come on taking your life is serouse.

but come on poeple im sure we all got what we need to live and theres poeple in much much bader situations then us.
try thinking of them and then compare yourselfs to them poeple and you migth get my point.

attempting sucide i think it just shows you got a week character i guess especailly when its nothing big like a women or a guy u broke up with or your family member died etc etc these are sad but these things happen poeple.
poeple die of hunger and desease poeple get there limbs blown off and there children killed i dont see why you lot should commit suicide when these poeple dont. :wink2:

And i wonder what your excusses will be for attempting suicide :bow:

If you lot want to kill yourself for such stupid reasons you migth have then i would of said go ahead but then i migth sin if you do kill yourself.

my advise before killing yourself travel abit go to a straving country or place then you migth just think twice about killing yourselfs.

but if you still want kill yourself after that go ahead and you will see what your going to come across on the other side. if only you poeple knew whats going to happen there, then i wonder if you would think of killing yourselfs.

[Blue Dragon]

"I wonder what the hell is wrong with those people?"

even SteyrAUG agrees with me on this matter :laugh: :wink2:

[Mandeigh Wells]

Emily...probably best to let it drop, no need to start a war over a missunderstood comment..... ;)

I think that it has to be realised that thinking about or actually committing suicide, is not a simple, easy or even straightforward thing. Yes there are people all over teh world in apalling situations that haven't thought about ending it all......why because they have a little thing called 'Hope' often those who commit suicide when they feel their life is hopeless. Its not simple a case of feeling sad......having suffered depression for many years I still cannot believe how little the medical profession have understood this condition....one doctor told me I needed to change my life style so I would be happier.............this prat had no concept of the fact that my depression is actually caused by a chemical imbalance....I have a seriously f****d up endocrine system, this swing in hormones can have me leaping from the roofs one minute and unable to get out of bed the next....I am fortunate that even in the darkest hours I have not yet lost all hope......

Just because you don't understand why someone else does something, doesn't mean they are weak in character......I can't understand why people like kids......I think they must be off their heads...... :)

[redqueen290]

*sigh* ok I'll stop. Your right, this could get messy real fast. Anywase, I think that it doesn't have as much to do with someones life, but more about the person's mind. Some people, no matter what would never commit suicide. And others, could have everything in the world and it wouldnt stop them from slitting there wrists. It's your mind that decides whether you would do it or not, not your situation.

[Jeff C.]

Emily,

People with more experience and compassion do not try to dictate to others how they "should" feel about a terrible event. In doing so, you disrespect what the family of a suicide has gone through, and may still be going through. After all, the dead person is feeling no pain. The family feels excrutiating pain.

Knowing this goes a long way towards being supportive of people who have been close to a suicide victim.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[GodofGamblers]

I have lived in pain for many years from a neck problem. I often thought of death as a release. But once you have kids it is different. You stop living for yourself... and thus the idea of suicide fades away.

[DragonWolf]

I've thought about it before, not about doing it, but about who would care. One day I just all the sudden had no fear of death. I'm not looking for it, but when it happens, what am I going to do about it? I've actually had a happier life since I realized this. I also don't want to live that long. Although I am very active and a vegetarian, I will probably live forever, I dread the day I become a burden to society. I don't want to hold up traffic, drive in the wrong lane, cause problems in a store, and definately not have to have family members take care of me. I am not going to kill myself, but it would be nice if I could get taken out at about 70. My life is not worth being a burden on anyone. Not feeling bad for myself, I just hate to see people in pain.

Another thing that has taken me away from suicidal thoughts is Tae Kwon Do. So when people talk my MA down, it really hits me in a different way. TKD has changed my life in a way nothing else can. And I wish I could share this gift with as many people as I can. I've mentioned on other posts that I am not in TKD so I can go to a bar and pummel people, I don't believe in violence, I do it cause it makes me feel good and feel like I belong. I've never belonged anywhere.

Well I hope I didn't go too off topic, I just wanted to share my feelings with someone.

Peace out all! :wink2:

[Ron Rompen]

Thought about it? Sure...most people have, at one time or another...even if not 'seriously', we've all wondered.

Acted on it? No (obviously) but I came close twice....not quite sure why I didn't follow through with my plan (cowardice probably), but I don't regret that I didn't do it.

Thoughts for the future? As Adam said, I don't want to end up being a drain/burden to my family when I'm old (ok Emily, OLDER!)....I would much rather have the option of choosing to end my life comfortably, and with dignity, when and if I choose. I strongly support the concept of euthanasia (my medical records are all stamped DNR (Do Not Recussitate) and I have discussed this with my family so they understand and accept my reasons.

Suicide is an option, but it is a poor one.....you can't change your mind afterwards.

[jakmak52]

Dr. Kovorkian, please call ER :laugh: Cowardice yes, it's a selfish act, but remember at certain times, some of us have so much pain and agony that exceeds our normal coping skills, we just don't see anyway out at that particular moment, even though there certainly is alternatives.... :bandit:

[Musubi Dojo]

Hello All;

Yup thought about it more than once, but I'm still here.

I have a question for all of you: Is depression Psychological or Biological or both? (in your opinion) and how do you seeing the two effecting each other. In other words, can you mentaly work your self out of a biological depression? Can you physically pull yourself out of a "Mental" depression?

I was very anti-medication for many years. I still believe meds are a last resort, but that they have a very real place in treatment of uni-polar and bi-polar depression.

If I'm jacking the thread here my apologies, but I think the questions are related.

Cheers
c

[jakmak52]

Hello All;

Yup thought about it more than once, but I'm still here.

I have a question for all of you: Is depression Psychological or Biological or both? (in your opinion) and how do you seeing the two effecting each other. In other words, can you mentaly work your self out of a biological depression? Can you physically pull yourself out of a "Mental" depression?

I was very anti-medication for many years. I still believe meds are a last resort, but that they have a very real place in treatment of uni-polar and bi-polar depression.

If I'm jacking the thread here my apologies, but I think the questions are related.

Cheers
c

No jacking at all, very related, I believe it can be both,in my case it is, I have mild Bipolar I and BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), it took years to find out what's wrong with Jack....I'd been on Prozac, Celexa, Lexapro, Depakote...and the list goes on with no substantial results...finally they (Head Doctors) put me on a new drug called Lamictal in conjunction with one on one therapy...it's works great for me and I feel part of the human race again ;) That's just my personal experience, everyone is different :bow:

[Musubi Dojo]

Hi Jack;

Thanks for your response. Trying all the different medications is really rough, especially when you're depressed in the first place. Some of the side effects can be really nasty. I'm really glad the Lamictal and therapy are doing the trick for you.

I tried Paxill twice, and the convulsions I had coming off of it put me off medication of any sort for a good ten years. I had some pretty horrible dreams as well.

I used things like prayer/meditaion & St. John's Wort to control my emotions for a really long time. It worked to some degree but it was exhausting. I went from living in a one room basement apartment on welfare, too paranoid to leave the house (thank you Paxill) to a decent job in an advertising agency, to meeting my Fiance and buying a house together. Life was going well but I was tired all the time, still sleeping most weekends away. I finally caved and talked to a doctor about mood disorders. I think this one has got it right. He's diagnosed me with Bipolar type 2. I'm on Lithium now. It's taken 4 months to find the right dose but it seems to be helping a lot. Everything just seems easier...

So I think that the mental and physical aspects effect each other quite a bit but my anti drug-stance has sure changed. Imagine that... :)

I was also amazed at how many people are actually dealing with mood disorders, blows my mind.

Here's some Canadian Mood Disorder resources if anyone is interested...

http://www.mooddisorderscanada.ca/
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/
http://www.mentalhealth.com/
http://www.mooddisorders.on.ca/

Cheers
c

[jakmak52]

Chris, I can relate, I also was opposed to any drugs at all, the PDOC (shrink) wants me to try Cymbalta (http://www.cymbalta.com/index_dep.jsp?reqNavId=0) for tiredness...I get more depressed than manic, except when I'm competing :cool: I'm really glad your getting balanced, I know it's not easy. I pray and meditate every morning when I get up and before I retire at night, it works. It took a while to realize it works, but I had contempt prior to investigation ;)

[sim3012]

When I was about 13-14 years old I thought about committing suicide every once in awhile, but never did it. Happy I didn't! :D Not sure total why I felt that way? :confused: It was like a depression I geuss.

[David Craik]

I would consider it if I were captured. Otherwise, I'm not giving others the satisfaction. :D

[BGalehouse]

Hello All;
I have a question for all of you: Is depression Psychological or Biological or both? (in your opinion) and how do you seeing the two effecting each other. In other words, can you mentaly work your self out of a biological depression? Can you physically pull yourself out of a "Mental" depression?

There is a difference? How is psychology not a specialized subfield of biology? I'm not trying to play a game with symantics, rather I think that something is lost when you try to catagorize everything. Some emotional problems respond well to therapy, some to medication, some to a friend dragging you outside to play in the sun, some to finding an acceptable sort of obsession. Because of side effects I think it is reasonable to put medication, especially those difficult to give up, after therapy and lifestyle changes. On the other hand, there are treatments which are hopefully tried only after the most potent medications. We've moved beyond lobotomy, but the last I heard, ECT was still with us.

Also, as you pointed out, non-chemical emotional control methods can also have side effects of a sort. At the end of the day, you need to think and decide for yourself.

[jakmak52]

There is a difference? How is psychology not a specialized subfield of biology? I'm not trying to play a game with symantics, rather I think that something is lost when you try to catagorize everything. Some emotional problems respond well to therapy, some to medication, some to a friend dragging you outside to play in the sun, some to finding an acceptable sort of obsession. Because of side effects I think it is reasonable to put medication, especially those difficult to give up, after therapy and lifestyle changes. On the other hand, there are treatments which are hopefully tried only after the most potent medications. We've moved beyond lobotomy, but the last I heard, ECT was still with us.

Also, as you pointed out, non-chemical emotional control methods can also have side effects of a sort. At the end of the day, you need to think and decide for yourself.

Thanks Ben, good post,good advice :)

[Musubi Dojo]

Chris, I can relate, I also was opposed to any drugs at all, the PDOC (shrink) wants me to try Cymbalta (http://www.cymbalta.com/index_dep.jsp?reqNavId=0) for tiredness...I get more depressed than manic, except when I'm competing :cool: I'm really glad your getting balanced, I know it's not easy. I pray and meditate every morning when I get up and before I retire at night, it works. It took a while to realize it works, but I had contempt prior to investigation ;)

Thanks Jack;

I've always been more depressed than manic as well, but I certainly have a list of memorable "manic moments".
Good luck with the cymbalta.
c

[Musubi Dojo]

There is a difference? How is psychology not a specialized subfield of biology? I'm not trying to play a game with symantics, rather I think that something is lost when you try to catagorize everything. Some emotional problems respond well to therapy, some to medication, some to a friend dragging you outside to play in the sun, some to finding an acceptable sort of obsession. Because of side effects I think it is reasonable to put medication, especially those difficult to give up, after therapy and lifestyle changes. On the other hand, there are treatments which are hopefully tried only after the most potent medications. We've moved beyond lobotomy, but the last I heard, ECT was still with us.

Also, as you pointed out, non-chemical emotional control methods can also have side effects of a sort. At the end of the day, you need to think and decide for yourself.

Hi Ben;

When I wrote the post I was thinking more along the lines of "can a chemical imbalance be treated cognitively, exclusively". But wasn't quite able to frame the thought. I'm sure the answer is "sometimes" or it's different in every case, but its nice to hear was others think/have experienced. Thanks for your response.

I have heard that ECT is lot less intrussive and damaging to the patients memory these days and is still used with really serious cases where everything else has failed. That being said the idea still scares the crap out of me.

Cheers
c

[dao]

I would consider it if I were captured. Otherwise, I'm not giving others the satisfaction. :D

Somehow this statement from you doesn't surprise me at all, and I must admit that I've had similar thoughts :laugh:

[BGalehouse]

When I wrote the post I was thinking more along the lines of "can a chemical imbalance be treated cognitively, exclusively". But wasn't quite able to frame the thought. I'm sure the answer is "sometimes" or it's different in every case, but its nice to hear was others think/have experienced. Thanks for your response.

Well, if you are unhappy because a relative just died, then your brain chemistry is altered. Yes, I know that sometimes there isn't such an obvious cause. But unobvious doesn't mean non-existant; all you ever know is whether you have found an external trigger.

In my case, I've occasionally done absurd things due to unhealthy obsessions building unhappiness and other emotional states. I've found that healthy obsessions during the day help me to sleep at night. Mathematics especially, but martial arts, motorcycles, and discussion forums too on occasion. I prefer these "accomodations" to trying out chemical solutions.

I accept that sometimes something like that cannot be found or perhaps even does not exist. Not only are my problems not your problems, my priorities aren't yours either. So beyond a certain amount of comraderie, I'm not sure what practical import they have. I mean, I do recommend thinking about what lifestyle changes might work, but that is probably obvious, and you probably already have.

[Jason Chambers]

Suicide... now it is interesting that this topic caught my eye. I am having a very BAD time emotionally and often think of the world might be like without me in it...

I am an emotional wreck right now. Martial arts or not... somethings just cant prepare you for some of life's of events.

[dao]

The world would be worse off then it is now if you weren't here, Jason.

[John Lucas]

Ill bet I got more kinks in me than 90% of the 18 year olds you are going to meet. I wont go into it, I dont want anyone to think I am trying to throw a pity-party for myself.
I go through cycles of depression and satisfaction that last a few months at a time. It doesn't really matter what is going on in my life, or what happens, when Im at the top, nothing can even make me flinch, but when I get to the bottam it feels hopeless. The things I usually love don't even matter, sometimes it feels like no matter what I do I can never enjoy it and I am destined to live a life of merely surviving, instead of living. But I never made any serious considerations of suicide, not really sure why, I guess it just seems like it would be an awfully anti-climactic ending to my story of survival.
The real victims are the people who love me, it kills my girlfriend to see me trudging around with no expression on my face, and knowing that there's nothing she could possibly do to cheer me up. I know its inconsiderate, and I know it ruins everyone else's day sometimes too, but its not like Im doing it on purpose.

[jakmak52]

Well said David, thank you.

[Oniw17]

I couldn't commit suicide if I wanted too, lol. I've been immortal since I proclaimed myself as the god Apollo 3 years ago...

[rubberband]

I have considered suicide a few times... my childhood was very violent and abusive and accompanied with conditioning to be codependent to my narcisistic father... violent enough that I developed PTSD... not so much for my beatings but more for the waiting of my turn hearing my brothers screams... but hey look on the bright side... 15 years of conditioning going limp while being beaten helped me learn to relax and take blows... and once I got past the total catatonic limp that came with scarf hold (dear old dads favorite spit in my face position) I became one hell of a ground fighter...

Anyway, I think many people these days suffer from Narcisistic Personality disorder, codependency to a narcisist, patterned traits of narcisism, or the frustration that narcisists are not widely considered mentally ill when they really are... narcisists have a way of making everyone in close emotional connection with them feel petty and worthless... they use the emotional bond that others have with them to manipulate people to support their illusions about themselves... while they themselves are not capable of feeling any emotional connection to anyone... and instead place their value in things and relationships with strangers that support their illusion... I think many suicides are caused by narcisists uncaring manipulation of the emotions of others mixed with their demands to be pleased, working on the self esteem of the individual being victimized to the point that the individuals lack of being able to fulfill the role they were conditioned to fulfill and frustration with themselves (because narcisists can do no wrong) leads them to seek suicide for some relief of the suffering... or the frustration becomes rage and anger which can lead to other destructive behaviors...

basically I want to bring awareness to this disorder because it took me 30 years to find out it existed... So please check out Narcisistic Personality Disorder and see if the source of your suffering is a highly functional loved one whos approval you just can't seem to get because they are a narcicist...

check out books like "Emotional Blackmail", "Why is it always about you", "Children of the self absorded" and any others... it can change your life... it has mine...

okay, on to some other points... Vitamin B is great for fighting depression... the book "Awareness" by Anthony DeMello is a great read for any reason...

and mostly... thanks for this thread and if you are as affraid to write here as I was just take a breath and go with it... and to Jason... Brother I have been in the darkness too lately... keep the faith... you are not alone...

take care, steve

[cmcfeaters]

Wow. What a deep topic--one that you wouldn't necessarily expect to find on a martial arts forum. However, it is a very important topic, and one that I feel is not addressed enough.

To answer the question, yes, I have thought about it, and I even made a plan once, but I've never attempted it.

As a mental health professional, I'd like to address some of the points that have been presented and some of the questions that have been asked.

One reason why there is such a high rate of suicide among people who are currently being treated with antidepressants is that when you are very depressed, you may not even have the motivation to kill yourself, although you seriously would like to do it. When your brain chemistry begins to change and you start to come out of the depression, the motivation to carry through on your intentions is there. And so people do try and they do succeed, because people think that they are getting better and can't imagine that they would make a SA then. However, any doctor worth a @%#* should be watching their patients very closely during the first few months they're being treated with Rx, as this is, statistically, the "danger zone" for suicide.

Also, the idea that the mind and body are disconnected and that you can have a mental depression or a chemical depression comes from Decartes, who proposed that the mind and body are separate entities which are not connected. Today, Cartesian dualism is being disproven time and time again. It is becomming increasingly apparent that the two cannot be separated. What influences the mind affects the body, and vice versa. Asking whether depression is caused by a chemical imbalance or whether the chemical imbalance caused the depression is like trying to figure out whether the chicken or the egg came first. The fact is that chemical imbalances, regardless of their etiology, are present in many mental disorders.

Because the mind and the body are connected, these chemical imbalances can be treated solely by the use of some type of talk therapy (CBT, psychoanalysis, etc.). But you must have a therapist that is a good fit for you. They can also be treated solely by the use of pharmaceuticals, but you must have a drug that is good for you. It has been demonstrated by the research that combination therapy (talk and Rx) is the most effective method of treatment, and it reduces the rate of suicide during recovery.

Lastly, I just want to stress again that you should seek help immediately if you are contemplating suicide. Each of us is valuable and the world would NOT be a better place without us. Although it's hard to see when you're at that point, there is always a light at the end of the tunnel.

[jakmak52]

Good Post Corinna, Thank you :bow:

[cmcfeaters]

Glad to be of some service.

[Musubi Dojo]

Good Post Corinna, Thank you :bow:

What Jack said!

Steve, have you read anything by Scott Peck? He talks about Narcisistic Personality disorders and lot of other stuff I found really interesting.
He wrote, "The road less traveled" and 'People of the Lie"

Peace everybody...
c

[Crooked-Eyed-Joe]

I actually want to live forever! (I also know it's not possible).

Michleine


Oh, but you can with Alex Chiu's Eternal Life Device. (http://www.alexchiu.com/)

Anyway. I've never thought of suicide as an option, which is a good thing.

[Musubi Dojo]

Oh, but you can with Alex Chiu's Eternal Life Device. (http://www.alexchiu.com/)



WOW!

Multi Level marketing, pyramid type scheme, a world domination plan, mixed with a dash of unbelieveable promises and served in a convienent cult format....

I even found this;

Disclaimer: The devices are believed to make humans immortal based on religious beliefs. No medical claim.

Do you think all the dead people with magnets on their fingers and toes tried to sue?

Thanks, that was hilarious!
c

[Crooked-Eyed-Joe]

All I figure is he'll lose his credibility when he dies.

[NickR]

I have never thought about suicide. I really don't understand how someone can be suicidal.

One of my best friends (since we were 10 years old) suffers depression, for no particular reason, no medical reason (eg chemical inbalance in brain); nothing bad has happened in his life. He once had a mental breakdown; I don't know how (if someone told him to or he went on his own accord) but he was commited to a hospital for 6 months (he was allowed in/out of his own accord through the day/evening, but had to sleep there). He told me that he had contemplated suicide, but would never of gone through with it.

My wife was raped when she we in her later teens, before I knew her, she was bullied at school, her parents been declared bankrupt, her grand parents used to abuse her mum, in turn her mum flips every now again and used to hit my wife, and various other things, BUT she has not thought about suicide. She has bounced back from it all (when I met her she was still a little effected by various events), whereas my friend just does'nt have any motivation, eg he can never get round to getting a job and we end up having to pay for his drinks when he comes out with us (though this has changed with us having little free money as we are buying a business with a loan), the house he lodges in is a mess (he has all the free time in the world to even attempt to tidy it). BUT he is a nice person, friendly etc, just he is'nt bothered about doing anything with his life, making anything of it.
He causes no harm to noone else, and I still respect and trust him and his honesty about how he is with his life and depression.

I think a lot of it is in the nature of the person, not what has happened to them, how they handle life and any problems it brings along no matter how big or small. But its still something I really dont understand, I feel I only know the tip of the ice berg.

[Jonathan Randall]

I have considered suicide a few times... my childhood was very violent and abusive and accompanied with conditioning to be codependent to my narcisistic father... violent enough that I developed PTSD... not so much for my beatings but more for the waiting of my turn hearing my brothers screams... but hey look on the bright side... 15 years of conditioning going limp while being beaten helped me learn to relax and take blows... and once I got past the total catatonic limp that came with scarf hold (dear old dads favorite spit in my face position) I became one hell of a ground fighter...

Anyway, I think many people these days suffer from Narcisistic Personality disorder, codependency to a narcisist, patterned traits of narcisism, or the frustration that narcisists are not widely considered mentally ill when they really are... narcisists have a way of making everyone in close emotional connection with them feel petty and worthless... they use the emotional bond that others have with them to manipulate people to support their illusions about themselves... while they themselves are not capable of feeling any emotional connection to anyone... and instead place their value in things and relationships with strangers that support their illusion... I think many suicides are caused by narcisists uncaring manipulation of the emotions of others mixed with their demands to be pleased, working on the self esteem of the individual being victimized to the point that the individuals lack of being able to fulfill the role they were conditioned to fulfill and frustration with themselves (because narcisists can do no wrong) leads them to seek suicide for some relief of the suffering... or the frustration becomes rage and anger which can lead to other destructive behaviors...

basically I want to bring awareness to this disorder because it took me 30 years to find out it existed... So please check out Narcisistic Personality Disorder and see if the source of your suffering is a highly functional loved one whos approval you just can't seem to get because they are a narcicist...

check out books like "Emotional Blackmail", "Why is it always about you", "Children of the self absorded" and any others... it can change your life... it has mine...

okay, on to some other points... Vitamin B is great for fighting depression... the book "Awareness" by Anthony DeMello is a great read for any reason...

and mostly... thanks for this thread and if you are as affraid to write here as I was just take a breath and go with it... and to Jason... Brother I have been in the darkness too lately... keep the faith... you are not alone...

take care, steve

Oh man, you nailed it! My experience directly parallels yours and I think a HIGH proportion, although by no means all, of suicide attempts can be traced to interaction with a Narcissistic Personality.

I've fought the depression battle for years and only now do I directly understand one of the root causes. Given my once suicidal thoughts and the emotional and physical abuse I suffered during my school years, it is a miracle that I survived. By removing myself from interaction with these two people, I have been able to try and succeed at things that I always thought were out of reach. This is one of them:

http://www.martialtalk.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=24

I didn't EVEN attempt drawing or painting until my 29th birthday.

BTW, I want to make it very clear that, while I thnk terrible parenting and childhood experiences can damage a person, I do not believe that it is an acceptable excuse to harm others either emotionally or physically. Every single Narcissistic manipulator and abuser that I've had contact with were chock full of excuses for their behavior and feelings of personal victimization. What crap.

Another great book is "Emotional Vampires". It goes into depth on disorders of Adults who behave like children.

[Musubi Dojo]

One of my best friends (since we were 10 years old) suffers depression, for no particular reason, no medical reason (eg chemical inbalance in brain); nothing bad has happened in his life.

Unless there's been a recent break through I'm unaware of there are no Blood tests that spot depression. It's purely observation and often not diagnosed despite evidence to the contray.

As for not understanding why anyone would ever want to kill themselves; I'm very happy for you and hope that you never do find out. No sarcasm intended.

Cheers
c

[Iron Monkey]

I never thought about it but I think it all builds up to a hard life. Everyone has problems but even if I did have suicidal thoughts I always think of what and who I would leave behind.

This is a good thread, talking about personal feeling and I respect that.

[Erik]

Dang, I almost started crying reading these posts here at work.

I'm really sorry you guys have had to go through so much.

I'm glad there's so much support here.

[Gene Williams]

Wow. What a deep topic--one that you wouldn't necessarily expect to find on a martial arts forum. However, it is a very important topic, and one that I feel is not addressed enough.

To answer the question, yes, I have thought about it, and I even made a plan once, but I've never attempted it.

As a mental health professional, I'd like to address some of the points that have been presented and some of the questions that have been asked.

One reason why there is such a high rate of suicide among people who are currently being treated with antidepressants is that when you are very depressed, you may not even have the motivation to kill yourself, although you seriously would like to do it. When your brain chemistry begins to change and you start to come out of the depression, the motivation to carry through on your intentions is there. And so people do try and they do succeed, because people think that they are getting better and can't imagine that they would make a SA then. However, any doctor worth a @%#* should be watching their patients very closely during the first few months they're being treated with Rx, as this is, statistically, the "danger zone" for suicide.

Also, the idea that the mind and body are disconnected and that you can have a mental depression or a chemical depression comes from Decartes, who proposed that the mind and body are separate entities which are not connected. Today, Cartesian dualism is being disproven time and time again. It is becomming increasingly apparent that the two cannot be separated. What influences the mind affects the body, and vice versa. Asking whether depression is caused by a chemical imbalance or whether the chemical imbalance caused the depression is like trying to figure out whether the chicken or the egg came first. The fact is that chemical imbalances, regardless of their etiology, are present in many mental disorders.

Because the mind and the body are connected, these chemical imbalances can be treated solely by the use of some type of talk therapy (CBT, psychoanalysis, etc.). But you must have a therapist that is a good fit for you. They can also be treated solely by the use of pharmaceuticals, but you must have a drug that is good for you. It has been demonstrated by the research that combination therapy (talk and Rx) is the most effective method of treatment, and it reduces the rate of suicide during recovery.

Lastly, I just want to stress again that you should seek help immediately if you are contemplating suicide. Each of us is valuable and the world would NOT be a better place without us. Although it's hard to see when you're at that point, there is always a light at the end of the tunnel.


Well, don't lay it all on Descartes and the 17th century Rationalists. :) Descartes actually realized that the mind and body do interact (he believed the locus of their interaction was in the pineal gland). His famous dictum, "cogito ergo sum," in itself leads logically to the conclusion that mind and body are a unified entity. Descartes was actually a giant step forward from Platonic dualism and the rather static Greek view of the "psyche." His contemporaries (roughly) Leibniz and Spinoza went even further in overcoming the dualistic view of man. To say that the belief that you can have a "mental" depression or a "chemical" depression comes from Descartes is incorrect. It probably comes from more modern thinkers like some of the neo-Freudians. I don't seriously think that anyone is struggling to overcome "Cartesian dualism" anymore.

[Ninjalord]

I can speak from the side of those who have been in danger of losing someone to suicide, and have actually lost one good friend to suicide. My friend Paul. We met when I was 16 and he was 14. We met at a youth camp. We hit it off instantly. For the next few years we enjoyed a really good friendship. We even tried to start a band together, that failed pathetically. I got home from work shortly after holloween, and found out this my friend of three years had hung himself in his room. He was 17. I never knew anything was wrong. He was always happy when I was around, and even had a really pretty girlfriend. I wish he had not done that, but I have no pity for him, because like it's already been said so many times," There is always a way out".

My mom is manic depressent, and is on more medications than I can count. She goes to therapy two times a week, and has greatly improved her quality of life, and the quality of life of those around her. I am so thankfull that she got help that she needed, so I can say I have watched someone come back from the brink, and make it through. I have just as much respect for my father, because I know that with out him, my mother would probably not be around to enjoy her two AWSOME grandkids. So I can also say that there is light at the end of the tunnel. All you have to do is stay focused on it, and you will make it through. But suicide is not ever an answer, no matter what, its self-ish, wrong, and stupid, and. I belive that with all my heart.

[Gene Williams]

Let's re-name this the psychiatric thread and move it somewhere. This is supposed to be chat and fun stuff. :)

[dao]

Maybe we should have a "Chat and Serious Stuff" Section :)

[Gene Williams]

Maybe we should have a "Chat and Serious Stuff" Section :)

*Edit*
This is a serioues thread, with some serious issues. Let's not make fun of it.

[Rasputin]

That's the beauty of it all, Gene: you don't have to read a post or even a thread which is not up your alley. Let's see if we can focus on being a positive contributor to the discussions instead of a fly in the ointment, OK?

The world has enough Gadflies.

[Gene Williams]

That's the beauty of it all, Gene: you don't have to read a post or even a thread which is not up your alley. Let's see if we can focus on being a positive contributor to the discussions instead of a fly in the ointment, OK?

The world has enough Gadflies.

Well, it is more than up my alley. I have a graduate degree in psychology, worked in mental health and in private counseling for 15 years, including A&D and mental retardation, as well as considerable time with the terminally ill. That being said, bringing your emotional problems to an internet forum, especially one about martial arts, is completely irresponsible "vomiting" all over everyone with your neurotic control needs. All of us do not need to be "co-dependent" with the emotionally disturbed. This isn't group therapy. Emotionally needy people tend to spill all over everywhere, usually subverting any therapy they may be getting from legitimate sources. That is part of the dynamic; self-destructive behavior tends to defeat efforts to overcome it. My "over-the-top" post was an effort to make a point by being extreme. The very act of starting a thread about "suicidal thoughts" is a controlling, baiting, emotionally irresponsible behavior in itself. We should not become co-dependent with the neurotic individual who started it.

[Rasputin]

My "over-the-top" post was an effort to make a point by being extreme. The very act of starting a thread about "suicidal thoughts" is a controlling, baiting, emotionally irresponsible behavior in itself. We should not become co-dependent with the neurotic individual who started it.

Real life: your job.

Budoseek member: not your job.

If you have a problem with the OP, use diplomacy or handle it through PMs with the person or persons involved. The day that your extreme approach (read: modus operandi) becomes acceptable, Robert will create a forum called "Mental Health in the Martial Arts" and put you in charge of it, OK? Until then, use a soft touch or none at all.

I have said it before and apparently find myself saying it again. Your long history in Okinawan Karate and the knowledge gained thereof is what makes you a valued member of Budoseek, not your arrogance or your confrontational nature. Is it enough to keep you from being banned? Not for long. I am certain that you know exactly how to fix the problem and remain a valued member of Budoseek--to pretend otherwise is to paint us as fools.

[Gene Williams]

Real life: your job.

Budoseek member: not your job.

If you have a problem with the OP, use diplomacy or handle it through PMs with the person or persons involved. The day that your extreme approach (read: modus operandi) becomes acceptable, Robert will create a forum called "Mental Health in the Martial Arts" and put you in charge of it, OK? Until then, use a soft touch or none at all.

I have said it before and apparently find myself saying it again. Your long history in Okinawan Karate and the knowledge gained thereof is what makes you a valued member of Budoseek, not your arrogance or your confrontational nature. Is it enough to keep you from being banned? Not for long. I am certain that you know exactly how to fix the problem and remain a valued member of Budoseek--to pretend otherwise is to paint us as fools.

I really don't think I have broken any rules, David.

[Rasputin]

I really don't think I have broken any rules, David.

Broken? Nope. Bent until they scream and beg for mercy, absolutely.

And that is why you are still here. Infuriating at times, inciting at others, but only rarely actually falling over the fence into breach of TOS.

To put it another way: if a Moderator feels it necessary to edit your post for content, then by their definition you have broken a rule. You know this. The game isn't any cuter just because you pretend to not be playing it.

Be a grownup and play nice. Pushing the buttons of your supporters is rarely a wise maneuver.

And that about covers it. Back to the OP, por favor.

[Gene Williams]

Broken? Nope. Bent until they scream and beg for mercy, absolutely.

And that is why you are still here. Infuriating at times, inciting at others, but only rarely actually falling over the fence into breach of TOS.

To put it another way: if a Moderator feels it necessary to edit your post for content, then by their definition you have broken a rule. You know this. The game isn't any cuter just because you pretend to not be playing it.

Be a grownup and play nice. Pushing the buttons of your supporters is rarely a wise maneuver.

And that about covers it. Back to the OP, por favor.


I wasn't aware we were playing a game, other than the inherent unreality of the internet. My reactions are honest and straight-forward. I have no need to push anyone's buttons, although some folks have an "auto-play" chip. :)

[Jeff C.]

Gosh Gene, I turn my back for one moment, and there you go, running into the street to play in traffic! Your pineal gland must be acting up again. ;)

Gene, I don't agree with discussing serious mental health issues on a martial arts internet bulletin board either, for the same reasons you use to back up your harsh response. I agree totally with you. But if people want to discuss it, that is their business. I choose not to get sucked into the codependent hand-holding behavior that these discussions seem to attract, or worse yet, insults about other's mental stability. As you said, it certainly isn't "chat and fun stuff." But there is nothing inappropriate about like-minded individuals having the discussion and deriving whatever support they think they are getting out of each other.

So let them be, and just choose not to participate. They certainly aren't hurting anyone, and a support hotline phone number has been provided if anyone feels the need to discuss this stuff with a professional. Thanks!

Jeff Cook