fighting outside of class

[tbmonti]

Hey Guys,

I just wanted to get some other veiws on a certain type of situation. Here is the deal, what do you do if you find out that one of your students has been unnecessarily fighting outside of class? My reaction has always been (like my instructor's before me) that, the student fights me for real and he or she is kicked out of my school. I have only had this happen once in several years of teaching because I stress the improtance of not misuseing the martial arts a great deal. However, in this day and age I do fear law suits from any one that I might force to fight me for keeps before kicking them out of my class. On the other hand any one who knows me will tell you that i am not about to comprimise my art and or teaching style just because someone who had a beating coming wants to sue me. Anyway I just wanted some opinions.

Anthony B. Monti

[Jeff Burger]

QUOTE
",the student fights me for real and he or she is kicked out of my school. "

Id think that could get you into legal trouble.

Our club you get 1 warning after that your out.

Jeff

[Jason H]

Anthonny,
Why the heck would you fight one of your own students? There seems absolutely no reason for that to me.

It seems a bit hypocritical to me: Let's say that you have fought your student, then kicked him out of class. Your teacher comes to you and asks what happened. You respond with something like "Well, Bob got into a fight at a nightclub, so I kicked his butt and then kicked him out." I guess I just don't get it. Fighting one of your own students sounds like unnecessary use of you martial skills to me. Whay not simply kick him out of your school and leave it at that?

[sharonhawker]

tbmonti,
Fight you for real?
Are you for real?
Instructors have a huge responsibility to set a good example to their students. What example would you be setting? I think you should speak to the student once you are in possession off all the facts and then decide whether to expel him or warn him.
If you do fight him for real, I hope his sues your a$$ off!

[tbmonti]

Hey guys,
I appreciate the input on my question it has been helpful, however, I still don't think that my current policy is wrong. It is no different than say the speed limit on a highway. The signs are posted and everyone knows how fast they can drive so it is not a surprise or injustice when you have to pay a ticket for X amount of dollar for speeding. It is merly a consequence for a certain action. I also feel that by enforcing this rule I am protecting the integrity of my art. After all if I just kick a student out for fighting out of class is he really going to learn a good lesson from this experience, or is he just going to move on to the next school and do the same thing until he finds an instructor who doesn't care what he does and someone get hurt badly. My original thought and the reason that I asked this question in the first place was that I am considering not doing away with the fighting me portion of the consequence for fighting out of class. I have been considering going ahead with that but allowing the student to stay after we have a serious talk about the only acceptable uses for his martial arts training. I have been thinking that if I do just kick the student out of class then this situation becomes my failure as an instructor not his or hers as a student. However, I still feel that if a student has a beating coming then care enough about that student and the integrity of your art to not fear a law suit. I also would like to apologize for not explaining myself well enough in my first post. Anyway, yes Iam for real and would appreciate any more input. Thanks!!!!!!!!!


A man who has attained mastery of an art reveals it in his every action

Anthony B. Monti

[sharonhawker]

:( :confused:
Oh my God!!!!!!!!!!!

[A.J. Bryant]

This brings to mind the question of an instructor showing his students proper martial value through their own actions, both in class and in life...

Beating students raises many issues, not the least of which are legal and psychological. If you truly feel the way you do, I would suggest that you consider ceasing instruction and seeking out a licensed mental health professional.

Regards,

[Bear]

First, off, legally, if you beat the tar out of one of your students, you won't have a leg to stand on. In a day and age where even someone who fights in self-defense can be sued, it is EXTREMELY risky, possibly even stupid, to initiate a fight with anyone, much less a student.

Secondly, many sayings are coming to mind. Two of which would be "He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword," and "There's always a bigger fish." What are you going to do if this "student" turns around and beats the tar out of YOU? It is the poor student who does not one day surpass his master. If you enforce your rules by physical force, don't be surprised when one day you get beaten.

As a whole, if you fight your students, I hope one day, one of them kicks you butt, or, if not that, sues it. You're treading in very dangerous territory.

[H@pkid0ist]

I have to agree with everyone else on this. I am a traditional student and instructor. I'm not always easy to work with becouse I don't believe in taking it easy. But, fighting a student becouse they fought unnesecarily doesn't make any sence. Its punishing someone for doing something and doing the same thing yourself intentionally. I always believe in the 1 strike rule for this one. No misuse of the MA is posted in the rules and regulations sheets handed out, preached on a daily basis and if they do break this rule they get put on probation. They break it again then they are stripped of their grades, certificates and certefications and asked to leave the school. Self-defense is the only reason they should be using their training. Anything else is abusing this training, your trust and their place in society as trained MAist. As well, in this day and age it could always come back on the instructors and the school reguardless of the situation.

[Dutch]

I have to follow the direction most people are following here. If you were to challenge someone on the street and beat them up, down or sideways, you would be legally at fault for that persons injuries. It's the same thing in your studio, except worse. You have a responsibility as a teacher to show your students the right way to act and live. You are instead showing your students that it is alright to fight and beat someone up to enforce a rule you may have. In Choy Lee Fut we have a rule that if students fight outside the school for the wrong reasons they will be expelled from the school for good. This is clear enough for anyone to understand and it doesn't take a student getting the blank kicked out of them to enforce. You truely should be ashamed of yourself for setting such a horrible example to your students.

Sincerely,

[RCastillo]

It is true, that the student must represent a decent image of who he represents. however, it's also difficult to control someones life outside of the trainning hall. No one likes anyone to attempt to dicate their life for them. Each case must be handled according to the individuals sitaution.:bow:

[Jason H]

Mr Castillo, per forum rules, please post your ful name in your posts.
Thanks!

[DragonMind]

Anthony,

Consider that the fighting is the symptom, not the problem and try to deal with that. This person needs help, not a beating or banishment. Martial arts, to me, is about growth. As an instructor, it is my job to foster growth. A beating from you (all legal issues aside) stunts the student, it does not help them grow. Being kicked out of the school also stunts growth, because a student who is not present can't learn. Talk to this person and find out the REAL reason for the fighting and help them find a positive way to change that behavior.

[tbmonti]

Hey Dragonmind,
I appreciate your insights minus everyone elses persecution of my style of teaching. I have put some thought into this and will try to do it your way. I will tell you that when I was younger and coming up through the ranks thats the way it was at most schools in the area that I live in. I remember an instructor that used to carry a short bamboo stick while teaching. if you were punching to slow or screwed up your form, whack!(usually on your forearm). We leraned to be the best we could be and I wouldn't trade that training for any thing in the world, it made us strong. I beleive that too many instructors in this day and age have gone soft searching for the almighty dollar. Thanks for the insight it is much appreciated!

Anthony B. Monti

[John Bennett]

What a load of crap!!!!!


I find it incredulous and disgusting that in this day and age there are still martial arts instructors who believe physical punishment is a valid teaching tool.

Forget all the legal implications of beating up students, Anthony you seriously need to rethink your ideas on teaching.

Physical punishment may be appropriate for teaching dogs not to pee on the carpet, but it is pathetic to believe it appropriate for teaching martial skills to impressionable students.

[John Bennett]

Originally posted by tbmonti
"We leraned to be the best we could be and I wouldn't trade that training for any thing in the world, it made us strong."

No, it made you weak, both ethically and intellectually.

I feel sorry for you.

I honestly hope you come to understand that some day and work to correct it.

[DragonMind]

Anthony and John,

Many of us learned in "dungeon dojos". The early martial arts schools in this country were founded, for the most part, by ex-military who had studied in Asia under people who treated them like dirt for a variety of reasons. It is no wonder they thought that was the proper way to teach. There is also the psychological pressure to love what we suffer for and to bond with those we suffer beside. This is one of the key tools used by the USMC in boot camp to break down and remold boys into Marines.

Although John comes across rather strong, his heart is in the right place and he sincerely means well. However, we are not training combat soldiers no matter how much we teach realistic street defense. There is a world of difference between the two. The average American, adult or child, is not going to respond to those old methods positively. Fortunately, there are much better methods of teaching martial arts.

What I would recommend is that you check out some of the organizations that specialize in professional teaching methods for martial arts instructors. I can personally vouch for the ACMA course, being a graduate of one of the first classes (my classmates included GM Jhoon Rhee, GM Bill Wallace, and GM Keith Yates). The curriculum is based on sound educational principles and will improve your teaching style tremendously. We are all students forever, and learning how to be a better teacher is probably more important than learning to do the perfect punch. :D

[Abbax8]

When dealing with difficult situations, I find it helpful to look at them from different perspectives. In this case, what if the student was your child, and the instructor intended to beat the crap out of him. How would you respond? I know how I would feel, and what actions I would take. Think Well.

Peace
Dennis

[wab25]

I think that having clear rules and clear implications for breaking the rules is necessary. The important part is to enforce the rules you set, the way you said you would, immediately. A very good rule for a MA dojo is "if you fight unnecessarily, you are out." It doesn't matter who breaks the rule, as soon as they break the rule, they are out. We like to think that we can treat each person individually, and take into account their personal experiences and help them through the mental and social problems. There are a few problems with this. First, the real world does not do this. If you step out in front of a fast moving car, you get hit. If you publically humiliate a customer, you get fired. If you were training people to shoot guns, how many times would you let a student unnecessarily shoot other people? Does not Martial Arts have the same sort of responsibility as carrying a gun? The second reason is that if we are not trained, as a psycologist, we may be hurting the person when we think we are helping them. These mental and social issues people have, are far deeper and more complex than most people realize. If you don't know what you are doing, leave their mind alone.

Now, as for beating your students? There is no reason for that at all. That is teaching the morality and ethics of Martial Arts by what not to do. I don't know if you get an ego boost out of this or if you sell tickets for people to watch. It doesn't matter why you do this, it should not happen. It teaches the student nothing that will help them in any way. It has a real chance of giving the student even more problems than they already had. Remember the part earlier where I said "If you don't know what you are doing, leave their mind alone?" If you beat your students, you obviously have no idea what you are doing.

By the way, where is your school? I would like to start training with you. After a few months I'll go get in a bar fight, then I will retire on the the lawsuit against you and whatever organizations support your school. Then I could devote much more time to my own training.

[Dale Seago]

Originally posted by wab25
If you were training people to shoot guns, how many times would you let a student unnecessarily shoot other people?

Only once, obviously. Then it's pistols at ten paces in the dojo with the instructor, after which the student's body gets kicked out into the street. :rolleyes:

Seriously, expelling the student is certainly appropriate because he's shown himself to be untrustworthy and has misused his art. Adding insult, humiliation before his erstwhile peers, and possible physical injury to the expulsion is just plain wrong. It also has a strong potential for further twisting the ex-student and making him totally irredeemable.

I live across the street from a man, still vigorous in his seventies, who was one of the pioneers of Tae Kwon Do in the San Francisco Bay Area with a string of dojang which were doing very well. He stopped teaching some years ago after expelling a student for cause. Didn't even beat the kid up first. But the kid came back to the dojang later and shot him.

And then there's this other point:


By the way, where is your school? I would like to start training with you. After a few months I'll go get in a bar fight, then I will retire on the the lawsuit against you and whatever organizations support your school. Then I could devote much more time to my own training.

*sigh*

Wish I'd thought of it first. . . :p

[Cliff Hargrave]

If I found out about an instructor here that forces a student to fight him "for real" I would do my best to put them in jail for assault.

Not only is that a very poor lesson in the "spirit" of martial arts, it's a crime, a civil liability, bad for business, bad for all martial arts in general, and serves no purpose other than to boost the warped ego of an instructor.

If you find out you are teaching a thug, kick him out! I have done it alot. I even kicked out a kid I really liked, took him under my wing so to speak at the request of his parents. He was fighting and getting in trouble and his parents begged me to help him. He straightened up for awhile, was making progress, but one night hung out with his old friends and ended up getting involved in a felonly assault. I told him to leave. His mom called me crying begging me to take him back into class but I refused. I explained to her that I am NOT a trained therapist (like John Bennett) and I did what I could, but I will not subject myself, my school, and my students to undue danger and liability by letting him continue.

Everyone posting here has been very nice about this but lets get serious. Beating up a student is STUPID! You have nothing to gain and everything to lose.

[kage110]

Beating up a student is wrong and stupid and does nothing to teach either him or you anything. If you genuinely want to help the student see the errors of his ways and use a physical means to do so you can always use him as uke and your gopher (as in 'go fer this and go fer that') for a few weeks. This does not mean that he gets a beating ever time you demonstrate a technique but it does mean that he knows he is on your s*** list - as does everyone in your class - and in the meantime he might learn something useful about MA.

I would also combine this with a 'one warning and you are out' policy and talk to him about why he fought, why he shouldn't fight and why you are taking the line that you are.

[De_Franza]

I'm going to assume the point of fighting a student "for real" is to demonstrate to them how much more they have to learn.
This could be demonstrated with a hard sparring session though, without really injuring him. You've got years, maybe decades, of training on him, so of course you can kill him before he even sees you move, so what's the point? What could it possibly prove?

Not to gang up on you, Anthony, but I have to agree that beating up a student and then ejecting them will not only leave you open to legal action, but is just plain wrong, and will not teach your student anything.

It's really just an easy way out for YOU. Please don't make a bad situation worse for yourself and your other students.

My suggestion is that you should talk with this student and put them on some sort of probation, make it clear to them they're on your ****list, and use this as an opportunity to teach them when it is and isn't appropriate to fight. (Some here may say you yourself need this lesson).

Like any situation in life, this can be an opportunity for you as well as your student. You may both learn much, you may learn how to teach better and may learn how to shake off some mental scars from your old teachers. It's an example of learning from your students.

I want to be clear that I'm not trying to sound like a condescending prick, I'm trying to offer constructive criticsm. It's not always clear when you can't hear someone speak.

All the best to you in this. Let us know how it turns out.

[jlyons360]

Fighting outside of class is a really bad thing. If you are found to be fighting without a great reason then you'll probably get put out. If I find that a kid hit a girl, then I let him try and hit one of the girls in the class. The girls usually wipe the floor with the offender and we never hear of that happening again.

Avoid fights. Run if you have to. Its ok to run because there's no gray area when you hit someone. Someone going to get hurt. So its really not worth it unless there is a real danger.

Live in peace

[black-gi]

why sweat it, give'm the boot and leave it at that!


Jason Bryant
Tracy karate

[ppko]

I disagree when I first started in the Martial Arts I was taught that part of the instructors job was to try and help others I believe that if you see no improvement over a long period of time then it is time for them to start searching another path but if they get into fights every once in a while then maybe they had a good reason but I would not throw them out the first occurance
thanks for your time
Joe Morris ppko@blackbelt.zzn.com

[Andrew Green]

What the hell is this supposed to teach?

If your a better fighter you can beat up on weaker ones?

You're doing to him what your telling him not to do to others.

[ppko]

I hope that these last two comments are not about what I said because I do not believe in beating up my students but I do believe that they should get another chance if they fight outside of class my response was to jlyons and black-gi
thank you
Joe Morris ppko@blackbelt.zzn.com

[Cliff Hargrave]

I hope that these last two comments are not about what I said because I do not believe in beating up my students but I do believe that they should get another chance if they fight outside of class my response was to jlyons and black-gi
thank you
Joe Morris ppko@blackbelt.zzn.com

They are talking about the original poster, not you, go back and re-read it.