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Wlerp
04-21-2001, 02:34
Doing some more research working towards the ever present goal of attaining knowledge. I got stumped on this one though. It seems that there is not alot of knowledge available about kiai-jutsu (Kiai is a spirit shout). I have seen the deffinitions of the word (ki-mind, will, turn of mind...Ai-fusing together)(fusing of two minds where the stronger dominates the weaker) but other than that I have found not alot of info. Ive read at least a dozen books that "touch" on the subject but no books that delve into any real research. I have been told by a few people that nothing excists on the topic. I have read plenty about ancient martial artists using the Kiai to maim, kill, and heal others. How? Lots of practice...thats usually how my conversations go. Practice what? Yelling at people? Well I'm good at that but there has got to be more. Another article states, "The focusing of chi and the extension of ones will through the vocal chords." O.K.?
Does any one out there know a source of info for this topic? Help please.

RA Miller
04-21-2001, 07:16
Wlerp-

I don't know of any good sources on kiaijutsu or any official training for it. I do not that a deep abdominal shout combined with zanshen can have an almost unnatural effect. Close range shouts are devestating infighting, obviously. Experiment.

Once upon a time though, I got a radio call for 2 inmates fighting. I was very close, so the fight was in full action when I arrived. The duty officer was yelling for them to break it up, the other 63 inmates in the dorm were cheering.. I came in and yelled "It's over!" It was words but with the same focus as a kiai. The dorm went silent and the inmate on top sprang off like he'd been jerked with a rope. I'm probably not getting this across very well, but two people in full, adrenaline drenched fight mode, who might not have noticed a physical strike were separated and completely frozen with a shout.

I'm sorry that formal training appears to be unavailable because there is definitely something there.

Wlerp
04-21-2001, 20:48
Thanks Rory, I have been experimenting alot in the pasat few months. I know thats not too long in the large scheme of things but it seems that there deffinately is something to it. I have scared opponents in sparring matches and it's a wonderful attention getter (as you stated) with two people going full tilt. Just wish I could find some official info on topic. No biggy, I'll just keep plugging away. Perservearence (sp?) thats the name of the game. :D

Sochin
04-23-2001, 02:14
Recently there was an article in our paper from out of London that "they" had discovered that purring by cats set up vibrations in their bodies that helped them to heal faster and that encouraged the building of stronger bones...

Our organization head, Richard Kim hs been teaching us ki gong and the healing sounds for years now and I'm a bit ashamed to say that I now take him a bit more seriously than before.

I too have stopped a room of people and also raging singles by voice alone, a combination of 'projection,' a lower tone than normal (deeper) and emotional content rather than just loudness. The 'content' of the voice as a clear or pure (?) expression of what you are feeling is important - a thirteen year ond white belt at her first local shiai shifted the judging panel in their seats with her first kia just yesterday...it wasn't the loudest of the day but it had a quality that shut the room down for a discernable length of time and I believe that quality was that it was completely natural expression of her fighting spirit.

I've heard that people who have been close to a tiger or lion when they roar go weak in the knees, can't breath and freeze up - a physical reaction caused by noise. Perhaps it is either an emotional reaction to the danger the noise represents or it is a physical reaction to the vibrations caused in the body by the quality of the roar...

[ April 22, 2001: Message edited by: Sochin ]

Ellis Amdur
12-01-2002, 12:43
I've had the experience of having a lion roar at about 7 feet away, and I hadn't even seen him there (long, funny story - there were bars between us). I was literally, momentarily paralyzed.

Moshe Feldenkrais has a piece in one of his books in which he states that the auditory nerve is so close to the vagus nerve that overstimulation of the former causes a similar over-stimulation of the latter, resulting in freezing of motion.

I have used this myself on a number of occasions, most importantly stopping my then 3 year old in mid-stride as he dashed out in the street in front of a car (and I mean mid-stride - he had one foot in the air, one on the curb, he froze, the car rushed past, and he fell onto the street a fraction of a second later). For this alone, all my years in martial arts training were totally worth it.


Different kiai entail not only different sounds, but different attitudes and intentions - you are trying to effect not only your opponent, but also yourself in different ways.


Best

Ellis Amdur
www.ellisamdur.com

warriorwoman
12-01-2002, 16:59
Why not discuss your interest with your sensei? Since this seems to be one of those things that need to be taught directly, perhaps your teacher would be in the best position to teach it to you.
janet dtantirojanarat
www.warriorwoman.org

Jim
12-01-2002, 20:40
Wlerp,

Good talking point!

I - like Ted - have had a lot of trouble in giving creedance to Kiai and other less tangible aspects of combat training, but having said that I have also gone out of my way to take an interest.

It's interesting to note that the roars of lions & tigers have a paralysing effect (it's been documented many times and I have heard arguments that it is an ingrained, generic responce from pre-historic times - I have trouble with this too, but that's subject for another discussion) but the barks of dogs are used for the opposite.

A dog, such as a terrier, will often bark and jump to get it's opponent to move so that it can give chase and take it down.

As Ellis has alluded to the intention needs to be there at the same time you give the shout - obviously hard to explain here, especially where some teach to clear your mind of thought when doing the Kiai.

Please keep us updated with the responces you find from here on in and what your Sensei has to say on the subject.

Jim
12-01-2002, 20:54
Addition:

To practice vocal techniques I recommend working with a partially deaf person who constantly forgets their hearing aid (yes I have that situation at the moment) also get yourself a house full of kids and try and get them ready for school in the mornings in less than 1/2 an hour.

Either that or go for a job as a singer in a punk rock band.

Good luck!

Wlerp
12-02-2002, 20:54
Thanks Jim and Warriorwoman,

The biggest problem Warriorwoman is that I now am the Sensei or Sa Bum Nim in Korean. My instructor is no longer available for reasons I will not discuss. I have several sources of info but all seem incomplete.

Jim, I have three screaming children (all boys) the limited kiai that I have practiced can freeze these rodents in mid holler.

It does seem that the intention has to be behind the spirit shout or it is just a noise. I have one deaf student (praise God I took ASL in high school), and he often does not hear anything but a low growl from me. He says that he more feels it than hears it.

I will keep working and report back my findings.

I am actually using it as a "thesis" paper for my next dan testing.

Wil

Kenji
02-16-2003, 10:49
From what I have learned a kiai is not necessarily vocal. A kiai is more of a conversion of ki, or life energy, vocal sound is not needed. Though it can help. My karate sensei can kiai without making a sound and have enough energy to take on any number of people in the dojo. His strength triples, its almost like you can feel his sudden burst of energy in the air, then he calls you up to help him demonstrate a technique for the class and you just walk up there and hope he doesn't maim or kill you. Of course,though, he wouldn't maim or kill anybody because of his level of experience.

Anyway the way we practice it, and my sensei is very big on tradition, you usually kiai without shouting. Shouting is more of a tool to rejuvenate your fighting spirit. The translation I have read about several times is ki-life energy, and ai-focus&harmonization or blending.

But I'm sure that life energy mixed with a loud shout can be an effective tool in controlling other unsespecting people around you.

Jeannette
02-20-2003, 13:37
KI in Japanese language means universal dynamic force.

AI is the root meaning harmony or coming together.

KIAJUTSU is the technique of being in harmony with this dynamic force in order to act and react with what is important.

Kiai is commonly misunderstood for loud, aggressive, shouting. There is physiological benefits to the kiai shout, but there is so much more rooted with
kiai, one would simply have difficulty understanding from research alone.

Through practice (always best in nature, especially on non-humans!)
and training with an experienced teacher, one can start to understand kiajutsu.

In the art that I train in (budo taijutsu) there are four BASIC types of kiai.

attacking shout, reacting shout, victorious sound, and shadow shout.

This will mean nothing to one who doesn't train in kiajutsu. (or in nature). Perhaps it will slightly open a window for some who read this. Keep Going!

Brian Veth
05-12-2004, 00:34
check out www.kyusho.com which is a website run by my instructor, Evan Pantazi look for a link "associates" and you will find the link for Gary Rooks, he does amazing work with sounds...he can KO people with sounds.

www.kyusho.com/ask1.htm the direct link...

J.J.Smith
05-12-2004, 20:03
Do some research on hypnosis, it is my current believe that the two are connected. In hypnosis, probably the most important step is giving their nervous system a shock, this is usually done with a semi loud shot, and a physical jolt.

rubberband
05-12-2004, 20:22
here is my take on this from my experimentation, use, and research...

basically human beings evolved from early primates which lived in bands much like other primates do today... dominance in the band was determined by the strongest or percieved strongest... perception is the key here... we all have written into our DNA four responses to violent stimuli (see the book "On Killing" by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman at www.killology.com) these responses are fight, flight, posture, submit... submit and posturing are the ones you manipulate with shouting or voice inflection work... if you sound dominant enough then the brain will click into submission mode and the person will drop their guard or relax to avoid percieved injury... if you sound antagonistic then the person gets pumped up and postures with a bluff attack which is easily dealt with and entered in on...

as for healing... when I was little and my mom used to sing to me when I was sick it sure made me feel better... also a true deep kiai from your core can create a strong vibration that cleans out broncial tubes and has a calming effect... just my thoughts...
take care, steve

Paul B
05-16-2004, 23:32
Just felt I had to put my 2 cents in (typical). I have read a few books that do a little more than scratch the surface on the subject, and worked on some of the basic aspects of kiaijutsu. A couple reference works would be E.J. Harrison's -"The Fighting Spirit of Japan" from Sterling Press in London.Another would be "The Secrets of Aikido" by John Stevens by Shambhala Press. It basically centers on the practice of "koto-tama" or "sound-spirit" and the vibrations released by certain sounds/syllables pretty deep stuff as you would have to be a closet Theologian to figure out what he is trying to say. Anyway good luck on your search, hope you find what you need. paul

ppko
05-17-2004, 11:45
Kiai Jitsu is more than making any sound their are sounds foer all parts of the body that will affect them differently and Song Pak is the man to talk to if you ever get the chance to go to a seminar I highly recomend it

Joe Morris

riku
05-17-2004, 12:06
ppko-
welcome to Budoseek! Please remember that forum rules obliges everyone to sign all posts with real, full name (first and last), or have nic -handle- that contains the full name:
http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5142

Once more, welcome.

Riku Ylönen

Paul B
05-17-2004, 19:58
Unfortunately, I have never heard of the teacher you speak of,care to enlighten me. please? Paul Bladen

ppko
05-18-2004, 11:10
Song Pak is a DKI affiliate and has studied for many years in fighting and healing philosophies he has given us a much better perspective on how different sounds affect different organs rather than a loud "Kia" we focus on different sounds for different elements we all know their are 5 elements earth wood fire water and metal and if you do or have ever studied with a pressure point master or are one yourself you know that they work but their are sounds for different elements
Song T. Pak
917 881-0378
song@kiaijitsu.com
www.kiaijitsu.com


Thank you
Joe Morris ppko@blackbelt.zzn.com

Paul B
05-18-2004, 16:30
DKI? Again I plead ignorance!JEESH! Any way thanks for the info, sounds very interesting as I have done some pressure point and "Kiai" work(long way from calling myself a master of anything)and have never heard of this particular method Thanks again-----------Paul Bladen

ppko
05-18-2004, 16:37
Dillman Karate International founded by Grandmaster George Dillman you can visit his site at www.dillman.com for more information or school locations
thanks
Joe Morris ppko@blackbelt.zzn.com

johenora
05-19-2004, 16:24
Doing some more research working towards the ever present goal of attaining knowledge.
Does any one out there know a source of info for this topic? Help please.
Dear mr. Wlerp:
You are correct there is not much written in the area of Kiai Jutsu (spirit shout) in that the subject is very esoteric.
Daito Ryu has some material on the subject in the Japanese books. So, does a book called Secrets of the Samurai have material on the subject..
Did you know that there are three types of spirit shouts?
Someone sez there are the :
(1) loud shout,
(2) grunt shout, and
(3) silent almost inaudible shout.
Preactice the shouts in the woods for a while and see what you come up with on your own. Musashi sez you do not need a book or teacher for this one aspect of the martial arts.
Has to do with fequency modulation. So also see some articles on Physics of sound and books theron.
Soon after some dedicated practice in the woods you will be breaking crystal glasses if you practice slow and easy and build up to the grand ultimate of the spirit shout. People will leave the room covering their ears if you try it in a crowded room.
Last, there is the "spirit shout" on internet which is hardly heard let alone understood because it can be so sub-rosa and extremely silent.
Cheers and happy hunting for the grand ultimate of the spirit shout.
Matta Ai Masho

johenora
05-19-2004, 16:37
Dillman Karate International founded by Grandmaster George Dillman you can visit his site at www.dillman.com for more information or school locations
thanks
Joe Morris ppko@blackbelt.zzn.com
--------
Dear Joe:
I have visited the site. I would like to know more about:
Who is GrandMaster George Dillman?
Is he for real?
Are the knock outs for real?
Does it work the same on everybody?
Do knockouts work better on hard headed and extremely round headed persons?
If the guy is on dope or drugs or coffeed up or drunk will the knockout work better?
What are the ways of doing these knockouts when the person is moving?
Is it correct the knockouts will not work if the dude is moving and bouncing around?
Will the knockouts work on dogs and other animals?
Do the hands need to toughened to do the knockouts?
Someone said it is not easy to learn these from a book. Is this correct?
Can a women do these knockouts?
Will these work on anybody 100% of the time?
If five points are struck at the same time will the dude die? If yes from what? Shock? Nerve damage? or What? Can you enlighten us on this?
Some say White Eyebrows and White Tiger Kung Fu fighters are able to do the five point kill like in the Movie Kill Bill II. Did you know that?

Thank you for your help on this subject.
Cheers,

ppko
05-19-2004, 19:05
who is GM Dillman?
George Dillman is the founder of Dillman Karate International and considered by many to be the leading authority in pressure point fighting
Are the knock outs real?
yes they are real and will work in fights the area of activation for a pressure point is about the sizze of a quarter if you can poke out eyes than you can activate a pressure point
Does it work the same one everybody?
No one point might knock one person out and not knock you out only hurt you can ussualy tell by the body make up of a person where they would be weak at
If the guy is on drugs will they work better
yes depends on the drug because each drug makes certain pressure point meridian weak
Is it correct that knock outs wont work if the person is moving?
No you might not be right on the point but if you know the correct angle anddirection to strike your odds just went up I and many other people have used these out on the street and they do work
will knockouts work on animals?
I dont know I have never tried
Do hands need to be toughened to do knockouts?
no
Can you learn these from a book?
yes but it is extremely hard I would suggest going to a qualified pressure point instuctor to learn how to properly use the pressure points
Can women do these knockouts?
yes
Will these work on anyone 100%of the time?
yes but there is a lot more to it than I can explain
if 5 points are struck at one time will they die?
from what I understand yes they die you will shut down a major organ
Kung fu doing pressure points?
I am not for sure about that but I know plenty of people that can do the five point kill and none of them are kung fu stylist per say

Thank you
Joe Morris ppko@blackbelt.zzn.com

johenora
05-23-2004, 07:12
who is GM Dillman?
George Dillman is the founder of Dillman Karate International and considered by many to be the leading authority in pressure point fighting
Are the knock outs real?
yes they are real and will work in fights the area of activation for a pressure point is about the sizze of a quarter if you can poke out eyes than you can activate a pressure point
Does it work the same one everybody?
No one point might knock one person out and not knock you out only hurt you can ussualy tell by the body make up of a person where they would be weak at
If the guy is on drugs will they work better
yes depends on the drug because each drug makes certain pressure point meridian weak
Is it correct that knock outs wont work if the person is moving?
No you might not be right on the point but if you know the correct angle anddirection to strike your odds just went up I and many other people have used these out on the street and they do work
will knockouts work on animals?
I dont know I have never tried
Do hands need to be toughened to do knockouts?
no
Can you learn these from a book?
yes but it is extremely hard I would suggest going to a qualified pressure point instuctor to learn how to properly use the pressure points
Can women do these knockouts?
yes
Will these work on anyone 100%of the time?
yes but there is a lot more to it than I can explain
if 5 points are struck at one time will they die?
from what I understand yes they die you will shut down a major organ
Kung fu doing pressure points?
I am not for sure about that but I know plenty of people that can do the five point kill and none of them are kung fu stylist per say

Thank you
Joe Morris ppko@blackbelt.zzn.com


Thank you for your insights Joe. You have ably answered all my questions. I am impressed.
Cheers,

ppko
05-23-2004, 18:21
John
What arts do you practice or teach and where are you from I am from Lawrenceburg IN and if you are ever in town email me and you can stop by my school and we will train with each other
Thanks
Joe Morris ppko@blackbelt.zzn.com

johenora
05-24-2004, 18:59
John
What arts do you practice or teach and where are you from I am from Lawrenceburg IN and if you are ever in town email me and you can stop by my school and we will train with each other
Thanks
Joe Morris ppko@blackbelt.zzn.com

Dear Joe Morris:
Thanks for your invitation. I promise someday to come to your Dojo in Lawrenceburg , Indiana. I love Indiana. You see I am a Bloomington-- IU graduate. You are welcomed wherever we are.
I am a teacher of Koryu martial arts. Trained at times with George and Wally and Remy. As you may know Remy left us for the great promised land.
You really know a lot about pressure points and vital points and how the system works and how to develop these skills which are so important. It is a shame many do not quite believe. Seeing, feeling , tasting and waking up makes believers of some who appreciate the arts.
My students are working on dormant muscles and building the elbows which I am sure you know much about the proper methods of breaking and building. Importance of two on and one off for the training cycle etc.
Surface, object, target material etc etc are all so important.
You are most knowledgeable and thank you for answering my qestions.
Kindest personal regards,
My Email number is daitoryaiki@hotmail.com Write me when you get a chance from your busy schedule.
I have admired JuJutsu, Karate Jutsu etc for a long time.
Hope to see you someday.

James Thomson
05-26-2004, 05:14
Doing some more research working towards the ever present goal of attaining knowledge. I got stumped on this one though. It seems that there is not alot of knowledge available about kiai-jutsu (Kiai is a spirit shout). I have seen the deffinitions of the word (ki-mind, will, turn of mind...Ai-fusing together)(fusing of two minds where the stronger dominates the weaker) but other than that I have found not alot of info. Ive read at least a dozen books that "touch" on the subject but no books that delve into any real research. I have been told by a few people that nothing excists on the topic. I have read plenty about ancient martial artists using the Kiai to maim, kill, and heal others. How? Lots of practice...thats usually how my conversations go. Practice what? Yelling at people? Well I'm good at that but there has got to be more. Another article states, "The focusing of chi and the extension of ones will through the vocal chords." O.K.?
Does any one out there know a source of info for this topic? Help please.Kiai-jutsu is mentioned in John F Gilbeys book called "Secret fighting arts of the world", although I think that this book is more fiction than fact (a little tounge in cheek). The only style that I know of that practices Kiai-jutsu are th practitioners of ninjutsu, and this is onl practiced at the highest levels of the art. I have also not seen any instructional information in any ninjutsu books I have read. The only advise therfore would be to involve yourself in some ninjutsu training and work from there. :bow:

ppko
05-26-2004, 06:41
James Thompson,
I also use Kiai-JItsu for both fighting and training like I have said earlier. Song Pak is the leading guy in our orginization on the sound. You can check him out or e-mail him at
Song T. Pak
917 881-0378
song@kiaijitsu.com
www.kiaijitsu.com

Thanks
Joe Morris

Coleen Twig
06-24-2004, 18:33
Hi,
Wasn't there some stuff about Ueshiba Sensei using this in Aikido?
Coleen

ppko
06-29-2004, 15:41
Hi,
Wasn't there some stuff about Ueshiba Sensei using this in Aikido?
Coleen
yes he used to use sound while fighting.

Joe Morris

johenora
07-12-2004, 18:29
yes he used to use sound while fighting.

Joe Morris

Yes Joe and Coleen--mutiple reply.
It is contined in the mysteries of Daito Ryu and the Kotodama and Shito and elsewhere. It may also be done silently and also sound through the airways like a stream of "invisible force power".
It is almost a lost art because of the lack of teachers.
Cheers,
John Denora

ppko
07-13-2004, 16:15
Yes Joe and Coleen--mutiple reply.
It is contined in the mysteries of Daito Ryu and the Kotodama and Shito and elsewhere. It may also be done silently and also sound through the airways like a stream of "invisible force power".
It is almost a lost art because of the lack of teachers.
Cheers,
John Denora
Yes you are very right sound can be done silently but it is ussually more effective when done out loud especially for a beginner it also help if you know how to project the sound to whatever it is that you are attacking

Cliff Hargrave
07-13-2004, 16:29
Is that the "whisper knock-out?"



:laugh:

Jeff C.
07-13-2004, 20:11
Aaaaaarrrrrgh! "Kiai" IS NOT "SPIRIT SHOUT!"

I have heard this one too many times. Sorry for the caps, but I have to vent. Bear with me.

"Kiai" is more correctly stated as "spirit harmony;" there is no direct translation for the characters, but this one comes close. The "shout" that everyone seems to associate with this term is NOT the actual kiai, but simply one way of helping one to achieve the "harmony of spirit."

In other words, the shout is a tool for achieving the kiai, but not the only tool, or even a necessary tool. One can certainly achieve this WITHOUT making a sound!

Another thing that really, really annoys me about this topic is to listen to someone actually yell the word "kiai" as they are attempting to achieve kiai. Aaaaaaccckkk!

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

jruner
07-13-2004, 23:01
MR. Cook what is a good method for practicing "Spirit Harmony"? I was taught in Tang Soo Do to really scream. Never a fan of that though. Open to other Ideas!

John Runer

ppko
07-14-2004, 05:57
MR. Cook what is a good method for practicing "Spirit Harmony"? I was taught in Tang Soo Do to really scream. Never a fan of that though. Open to other Ideas!

John Runer
I know that you didn't ask me but I may be able to help depends on where you are attacking as there are different sounds for different areas. We have a guy in our orginazation by the name of Song Pak if you want to learn more about him or get some videos on kiai jistu go to www.kiaijitsu.com click on news for information on Song. He is very knowledgeable as he has studied oreintal med for quite a long time

Jeff C.
07-14-2004, 06:10
John,

I would recommend what Joe says: find a qualified instructor. Yelling is a tool for learning good kiai; it can be part of the process. It helps to distill and focus your spirit. Again, it is not necessary, but it is one method for learning the harmonization.

Saying that the yell is the kiai is like labeling the hammer you built the house with "carpentry." "Carpentry" is the process of building the house; the hammer is just a tool of the carpentry.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

ppko
07-15-2004, 04:48
John,

I would recommend what Joe says: find a qualified instructor. Yelling is a tool for learning good kiai; it can be part of the process. It helps to distill and focus your spirit. Again, it is not necessary, but it is one method for learning the harmonization.

Saying that the yell is the kiai is like labeling the hammer you built the house with "carpentry." "Carpentry" is the process of building the house; the hammer is just a tool of the carpentry.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu
A great post sir

TonyU
07-15-2004, 14:11
I second that.

Becky_Sheetz
07-15-2004, 14:25
This is a big question and kiai is becoming harder and harder to define as this thread progresses. Those of you in the know, would you call kiai a component of a more external art or internal art?

I think of it as being a point of focus for an external art or a point of distraction for either an external or internal. (I realize there is significant overlap between external and internal.) But I have never given it that much consideration.

And Jeff, I too have seen the schools where the students say "kiai" when they strike. Kind of defeats the purpose if you ask me. :)

Morgan's "Living the Martial Way" does a good job of explaining kiai, IMO. You can find it at amazon and many book stores.

ppko
07-15-2004, 16:13
Kiai is both internal and external as you can use it to heal, to effect the other person (good or bad), it can help you punch harder and faster it can also slow your opponent down (providing timing is right).

ppko
07-22-2004, 17:29
We will be having Song Pak down for a seminar in August for more info pm me if you would like more info on Song go to www.kiaijitsu.com and click on news. All are invited.

Jack Stay
08-03-2004, 12:18
A good definition of kiai can be found at:

http://www.nmsu.edu/~judo/terms.htm

____________
John 'Jack' Stay

oneinchpunchmaster
03-05-2005, 12:31
I've heard that a kiai alone can knock out someone.Also hurting someone without touching them can use Kiai.

oneinchpunchmaster
03-05-2005, 12:34
Basically for those who dont know how to do a Kiai.heres a quick explanation:

Its about quickly exhaling as you say a noise,these are recommended: EEE,I or AAA.I use EEE as its easier on the throat.Also you want the kiai to be as short but as loud as possible.

Martin
03-05-2005, 16:40
The only way I can see that happening is if you get a low enough frequency to make them nauseous at maybe 150 Hz or below. You could kill a person if you can get down around 7 cycles a second, impossible for your vocal chords, of course. Plus, you'd be doing the damage to yourself as well. High enough dBs and you could cause hemorrhaging too. I've seen no proof a kiai doing anything as drastic as knocking someone out, sounds childish to me.

oneinchpunchmaster
03-05-2005, 20:23
Heres my advice:Google Kiai.Look at the 1st/2nd result.this site shows the sound that should be made.I dont think it can kill someone but ive researched and read that a kiai alone can knock out someone

Martin
03-05-2005, 21:55
Then please, by all means: prove it.

oneinchpunchmaster
03-06-2005, 06:47
Here is the link.Also if you look around the fightingarts.com forums they also agree on this..

http://www.shotokanforeveryone.com/kiai.htm

Martin
03-06-2005, 16:31
Maybe we're not on the same page here...

That link, which I've seen myself, offers the same viewpoint as yours, what it doesn't offer is any convincing or empirical proof or explanation of it.

Try again.

swdw
03-07-2005, 08:45
Before I go into an explanation on some of what I've learned, let me add, low frequency "killer" sound has been disproven without a preexisting medical condition.

Second , there is no DOCUMENTED case of someone being killed by a kiai. By documented, I mean an incident where independent witnesses could verify the story.

What I will describe here is one veiwpoint on the kiai, so many will probably disagree. Although this is a long post, I'll try to keep it as short as possible by not going into intricate detail.

There's a lot of myth circulating around a kiai. Part of this is from MA history where a physiological reaction is explained from a spiritual perspective. This is understandable as there is much about the internal workings of the body that were uknown at the time.

Before talking about what makes a correct kiai and why, let's look at the physiological effects of a correct kiai. The effect on the practitioner is two fold. With a correct kiai, there will be a slight flush in the practitioner, the pulse rate elevates slightly, and in some cases, the hair on the back of the neck or even the arms will stand up. This is very similar to the reaction caused by an adrenaline rush. Some studies were performed that showed certain noises can produce an adrenaline rush in the body, regardless of the source. They also found deep regulated breathing allows you to "control" the adrenaline rush.

Note the effects of breathing in the following quote: "As described by Jim Viceroy, a Chicago-area exercise physiologist and sports psychology consultant, the body works like a piston-stretching and contracting, storing energy and releasing it-while executing a volleyball slam.

Says Vicory: "Your body goes through a series of cocking all your joints.
Your hips cocks and your trunk cocks, your elbow and your wrist-like rubber
bands. You store elastic energy, you create the most tension possible in the
body, and you increase the range of motion, including the chest. By taking a
nice deep breath, you're presetting your muscles, stretching them. And so
when you exhale, if you do it correctly, you'll get this whole marshaling of
all those muscles at the same time, and this generates enormous force.
Therefore you have more velocity, more power.

The effect is partially psychological; much like the kiai, the shout of
the martial artist, it breaks down inhibitions and intimidates the opponent.
Of course, the force generated by the kiai would propel a backhanded tennis
ball over the fence."

Comment- earlier in the article, they explain that a "nice deep breath" means breathing with the diaphragm.

Summary- The physiological/psychological effects of a kiai performed at the right time, help synchronize the movement with the kiai, firing the "cocked" muscles and creating a strong mental intent that breaks down inhibitions that would keep you from releasing your full strength.

The rapid release of breath in the kiai, coupled with the increaed adrenaline results in a noticeable jump in power (increased strength from increased adrenaline is a well documented phenomena). In adddition, the forced deep inhalation also helps the practitioner utilize the adrenaline rush in a "fight" response rather than a flight response. One of the things kata practice does is aid in teaching you to control your breathing and link it to your movements.

He did mention the effect on the opponent. Let's take a quick look at that. Short, loud noises create the fight or flight reaction. This happens in species other than man. Example of such noises would be the initial clap of thunder, a pot dropped on the floor behind you, someone sneaking up behind you and yelling 'boo' loudly.

Many times this will cause a momentary hesitation before the flight reaction takes over. The same thing happens with a proper kiai. It will induce a temporary "flight response" in your opponent, which can cause a pause in their movement and thought processes. This gives you a great advantage. The only thing is, the more often you kiai against an opponent, the less effect it has.

I use this as a training tool with my students. I have literally stopped them in their tracks during ippon on either their attack or counter. I work with them and tell them to learn to continue in spite of the kiai. They get better over time, although a kiai at an unexpected moment can still freeze them. You can see it rob power from a more advanced student's technique when delivered unexpectedly. (Stand behind them and kiai).

The fact that a strong kiai breaks down inhibitions can be seen when teaching people to kiai. Hence- the teaching that a strong kiai= a strong fighting spirit. A beginners initial kiais are weak and ineffective. Making them stand and practice their kiai can often induce giggles and smiles in beginners. Ask them why and they'll say "it just seems funny". When they can get past the social conditioning (don't yell or raise your voice) and really cut loose with a good kiai, this mentally sets them up for delivering full power techniques. I get a chuckle when I see a beginner produce their first good kiai and actually startle themselves :)

Now onto a proper kiai-

First- the air should be forced out using the diaphragm

Second- it should be SHORT. No Bruce Lee drawn out waahhh's, eeee's and oooohhh's. (sorry BL fans, but that was for the movies).

Third- it should be LOUD

Fourth- the sound should be produced without any consonants. The reason for this is making a consonant sound like the 'k' in kiai restricts the breathing and slows down the expulsion of air

Fifth- do NOT exhale 100% of yoru air. Anyone that's been hit with no air in their lungs will tell you it's worse than being hit with your lungs full. Keep 10-15% of your air.

Think of your kiai as a "Clap of thunder" or the sound of a gunshot. It should crack the silence like a whip.

Can it kill? I guess if the opponent had a weak heart and was untrained it would be the same as some people that have literally been "scared to death".

Can a kiai stop an animal? Yes- under the right conditions. Often the initial fright reaction makes an animal freeze (tiger's roar as an example).

Hope this helps.