Sparring.

[2fisted]

Just want to hear opinions.

[tkdcanada]

I don't think sparring can train you for any type of real life combat because you just don't have the adrenaline rushing through your body the same way. When you spar, you're not afraid for your life and therefore the situation is not really as urgent - there are rules and so you somewhat know what to expect. In a real life situation, you can never know what to expect and so you would act differently in that specific situation.

[Hardcore Fighter]

I think sparring in a ay helps for real life combat. If its sport sparring like TKD or kickboxing then its not too realistic but it still helps.

I think people should train Street fighting sparring. But not kill each other.


Do judo and jujitsu people call it sparring when they grappel?

Andrew Allwander

[RA Miller]

Jujutsukas call it "randori" same as judokas.

As to sparring, properly done it can help with some skills and certain situations, but I feel it is very nearly the worst possible training for surviving an ambush.

Rory

[Skye]

It depends on how you spar, if it's scary then you get some adrenaline. It's alot more scary when you try something new, then you don't really know what to expect. Once you get into a routine you don't learn much more about different situations. You can do little things like let yourself get caught against the ropes (if you have them) and then just try and fight out of that position, or walk up really close without hitting or being hit...just play around a bit.

[Hardcore Fighter]

I think sparring helps for just fighting on one guy and stuff.


Its cool to spar like 2 or 3 people at the same time.

I think the best thing is to just have a street fight with your friends or whatever and just actually fight you know. but not like kill each other. Just do stuff as close as the real thing as you can get. Just dont actually break an arm or whatever.

Sometimes in class I just want to fight. And in TKD sparring in class I get pissed off at those really dumb one legged fighters who think they are the ultimate master becuase they kick with only their front leg and when you try to kick them they block with the same leg and try to hurt your foot with their shin and they ALWAYS have terrible technique and form and are slow and just do stupid front legged side kicks. Those guys piss me off so much. In reality I can grab their leg or kick out their base leg and break their knee and I can kick them in the balls and do a lot of other stuff to them. They think they are the best fighter becuase they sometims will get a good point in. but the thing is the TKD rules are just for the sport and not real self defense. Those guys will never stand a chance in the real world. But ussually I am good enough to beat those one legged guys with TKD sparring rules anyway.


But dont thoe 1 legged fighters anoy the heck out of you? They always have a stupid pose and think they are so good.

"ooo im on one leg look at my awsome balance! Oooo front leg side kick and then a wussy chasing you with my front leg and trying to get a point! Im soo gooooood! Look at my sloppy form! I have no controle and its class time!"

Anyone else feel this way?

Andrew Allwander

[wab25]

If you want to improve you street fighting skills, you need to study kata. Kata is where you will learn all the finer points of each art. Kata is also where you will learn the flow of the move. Kata is where you learn how to make the art work on different types, sizes of people. Kata is where you learn the principle of the art. When you know the principle of the art, you can apply that principle in every other art/situation.

If you want to improve your kata, you need to study randori/sparring. This is where you will learn to apply the art on a resisting person. You will learn how to blend with anothers movement. You will learn to flow from one move to the next, without thinking or memorizing the pattern. This is where you will learn how to find or create the opening for the art. This is where you will learn to let your arts flow without thinking about them. If you focus on trying to do one art, your opponent will see it too and counter. This is where you will learn to go with the opening that presents itself. This is also where you will learn the principle of the art.

The short answer is you need both. There are very valuable things in each. You need the finese of kata, to improve your randori/sparring ability. You need your randori/sparring, to learn how to apply the art in a real situation.

Just because you cannot practice every possibilty that you might face on the street, does not mean that sparring has no value. Yes, on the street you will most likely face a new situation, which requires different responses. But the whole idea of studying a MA is to learn the principles of that style. The moves, arts, training... whatever, is to teach you the principles. Sparring/randori is a way to see well you understand the principles, and how well you can apply the principles in different ways. The more you understand the principles, and how to apply them in different ways, the better prepared you will be for the street. Kata brings much of this understanding, sparring/randori brings the other half.

[LEFTHOOK]

I believe that sparring is a great form of training for real life combat but it must be done properly. You should train for both single and multiple oponents. Mock weapons should be trained with in realistic street situations. While many will argue that their art is to dangerouse for sparring because the techniques will cause seriouse injury and this is a valid point I do believe that they should use some form of sparring for the following reasons. Increases speed, power, and over all toughness of the student.

[rpnp]

Sparring is usually 1 on 1 and randori is more like 1 on 5 coming in all directions...

Sparring has set rules and in a street fight anything goes. There is no "sure" way of teaching some one how to defend themselves on the street the best someone can do is just prepare for the worst. That involves conditioning the body and exercise; too many martial artists overlook daily exercise and conditioning.

Remember all the technique in the world isn’t going to help you if you can perform them w/o getting tired!

[it2x1]

In the military there is a saying that goes, train like you fight. It means that training should be as realistic as possible and that the training should reflect the likely scenarios you will encounter in combat using the tactics that you will need to defeat the enemy. Good training "maneuvers" will emulate reality by trying to "recreat" the battlefield. In short, it's what goes into your senses (sight, sounds, sensations, emotion...). I am relatively new to MA but I have a tendency to look at the things I'm being taught and look for the realistic application in it. Some things are working my reflexes and thats definetly gonna help in real life in all sorts of ways. Some things work my...agility...situational awareness... endurance...emotional control... All these things are going to prepare me for fighting as well as other things. (Am I wrong?) My guess is that a great way to sparr for realistic scenarios is like Hardcore Fighter said; get out of the gym and into different environments and go to town with some friends. When I was little I used to watch a group of guys do this often. Not only was it interesting to watch the dynamics, but see what there imaginations came up with. Then on the weekends, it wasn't hard to find them getting into real fights. Come to think of it, thats probably the real way they got good at fighting.:eek:

[Shinoma]

I love to spar. It's better than doing Katas. It is true that you get a different feeling in real combat than you do in sparring. I always get this knot in my throat if there is the remote possibility that I have to fight.

it2x1,
You're right in the concept of "Train like you fight." Some people think that the martial arts will never work in real life. However, the point is to train yourself so your techinques will be usful in every given situation. You're mind must be empty when you fight. This is something I've been trying to put into practice myself

[hac]

depends on the aponants/exponants. if u r learning from it u know, if not u also know. the real question is y ask.

[hac]

shinoma-

"You're right in the concept of "Train like you fight." Some people think that the martial arts will never work in real life. However, the point is to train yourself so your techinques will be usful in every given situation. You're mind must be empty when you fight."

my sentiments exactly, RESPECT!

[reynoldsc]

It depends on what type of sparing. In Boxing we dont do the hole point deal (wile sparing). Its just so you can try new combos see how they work for ya and and help you find you strengts. It conditions your body as well. Ied never be where I am now without it. It will help you in the real world A LOT more. heh when that little tap is only a tap not a point.


chad reynolds

[patfromlogan]

"I don't think sparring can train you for any type of real life combat because you just don't have the adrenaline rushing through your body the same way"

It gets pretty close when the sparring is realistic. I was lucky enough to spend time in Kyokushin with mild mannered Mormons (who weren't so polite on the mats), outlaw bikers, and exstreet fighters. There tended to be a high level of adrenaline, especially when you knew that if you got hit, you were going to be in a world of hurt.

Since I'm back to add my name, I would also add as I did in a 'will it work' thread, go other schools or dojos as a guest and try it out. Like the American Kempo school sparred on Friday and various students of other arts were welcome to drop by.

pat easterling

[Jeff Burger]

Welcome to Budoseek PatfromLogan

Per forum rules please include your real full name.

JMB

[worndowndahnbonym]

I think that a lot of it depends on how you spar, and why.

My old instructor used to say that he was teaching us martial arts. If we were at war, or living in a war zone, then he would teach us how to fight... but until then, we would continue to learn Martial Arts.

When I used to spar, it was a test of my martial arts and body against someone elses. A much better body could overcome mediocre art.... and a much better art could counter act much better physical conditioning.

However, I cannot go out and test myself in a real streetfight. I found out long ago that when I am in a conflict, all I do is try to find the fastest and best way to cripple or kill my opponent, and then get away.

Adding martial arts training to that has led me to the belief that when/if I ever get in a real, honest-to-goodness fight, I am probably going to kill someone.

Therefore, I find it much easier to just avoid the situations where that could happen.

[kwan kune]

in my opinion sparring is an exercise done for one thing and that is timeing. in real life there are no points also if you are hit you will either be pursued or have the chance to counter. but all in all it is the closest thing to a real fight were there is little risk of being hurt.

[Chrono]

To some extent sparring does help in real life situations. You learn to adapt to the other fighter's style. You learn what seems to work and what doesn't. You learn what mistakes you could be making which may turn out to be fatal if it were a real situation. That's my take on it, anyway.

[Erik]

If you want to improve you street fighting skills, you need to study kata. Kata is where you will learn all the finer points of each art. Kata is also where you will learn the flow of the move. Kata is where you learn how to make the art work on different types, sizes of people. Kata is where you learn the principle of the art. When you know the principle of the art, you can apply that principle in every other art/situation.
Absolutely not. Katas are good for kids or people who lack basic MA or mechanical dexterity but fighting air trains people to do things wrong, plain and simple.

(Climb up on soapbox...)

For real-life, katas teach wrong principles as:
1) there is no natural aiming point when striking, no target, just a point in space, which is not true to life, as your opponent will be moving and learning targeting is a huge lesson that must be learned,

2) there is nobody hiting you back so the kata-doer does not learn to protect himself against an unpredictable opponent,

3) it teaches someone to develop a sense of timing that is purely internal, i.e. not based upon siezing advantage of an opponent's lapses, which is intentionally putting the mind in the wrong place,

4) there is no resistance when hitting air and a fighter is apt to injure himself if he does not learn to hit against something massive like a heavy bag, side of beef, or the like,

5) kata teaches self-balance and, as per Newton's 1st law, if you kick or hit something, it will push back against you which, in real life, can knock you right over,

6) kata is choreographed which teaches a person to do things in an artifical order whereas, by definition, real fights are very difficult to predict and managing these unpredictable strings of events is the key to survival (and even more so for victory),

7) kata teaches silly, irrelevant details, such as looking pretty or semetric or aesthetically balanced, all of which put the mind in completely the wrong place for real-life fighting,

8) kata convinces a person that certain techniques will work when in fact they are learning them wrong as the practicioner is doing the techniques in their own little world, one that will be burst open upon first contact with a real opponent,

9)most importantly, katas rob the practicioner of an unwilling, uncompliant, fully-countering and resisting opponent, which is the single most vital part of training for real life.

In 5 years of bouncing during which time I inflicted 7 choke-outs, two broken arms, a broken leg, and survived numerous other dramas in which I was able to subdue my opponent(s) without injury to them (and never myself), the most important MA training I had was actually high school wrestling and college water polo. Both taught me to manage chaos and both, strangely, were more difficult than real fights (go figure).

I only discovered judo, kickboxing, and BJJ later, but the constant practice against a resisting and countering opponent is the single best way to train outside of actually picking fights with strangers (which is simply not polite nor legal).

(...dismount soapbox.)

[TonyU]

sigh Never mind.

[DungeonWorks]

The following opinion is from the frame of mind of full contact sparring. Personally, I have no use for pointfighting....it is just a game in my opinion and if people want to "play" it, that is great for exercise and reflexes, but do not be fooled...it is NOT fighting or sparring.

I do not believe Sparring is the be all end all to streetfighting, but I have to say that what is???? NOTHING in MMA or Traditional styles is 100% realistic. Sparring is called sparring because there are controls in place for the safety of the participants, but with the element of contact, you can train yourself to withstand a blow(s). This CAN better prepare you for the real world situation you may face, but in reality the variable are just endless. Practice and prepare for what you think you will be most likely to face.

My $.02 on my Visa. :D

[kwan kune]

Absolutely not. Katas are good for kids or people who lack basic MA or mechanical dexterity but fighting air trains people to do things wrong, plain and simple.

(Climb up on soapbox...)

For real-life, katas teach wrong principles as:
1) there is no natural aiming point when striking, no target, just a point in space, which is not true to life, as your opponent will be moving and learning targeting is a huge lesson that must be learned,

2) there is nobody hiting you back so the kata-doer does not learn to protect himself against an unpredictable opponent,

3) it teaches someone to develop a sense of timing that is purely internal, i.e. not based upon siezing advantage of an opponent's lapses, which is intentionally putting the mind in the wrong place,

4) there is no resistance when hitting air and a fighter is apt to injure himself if he does not learn to hit against something massive like a heavy bag, side of beef, or the like,

5) kata teaches self-balance and, as per Newton's 1st law, if you kick or hit something, it will push back against you which, in real life, can knock you right over,

6) kata is choreographed which teaches a person to do things in an artifical order whereas, by definition, real fights are very difficult to predict and managing these unpredictable strings of events is the key to survival (and even more so for victory),

7) kata teaches silly, irrelevant details, such as looking pretty or semetric or aesthetically balanced, all of which put the mind in completely the wrong place for real-life fighting,

8) kata convinces a person that certain techniques will work when in fact they are learning them wrong as the practicioner is doing the techniques in their own little world, one that will be burst open upon first contact with a real opponent,

9)most importantly, katas rob the practicioner of an unwilling, uncompliant, fully-countering and resisting opponent, which is the single most vital part of training for real life.

In 5 years of bouncing during which time I inflicted 7 choke-outs, two broken arms, a broken leg, and survived numerous other dramas in which I was able to subdue my opponent(s) without injury to them (and never myself), the most important MA training I had was actually high school wrestling and college water polo. Both taught me to manage chaos and both, strangely, were more difficult than real fights (go figure).

I only discovered judo, kickboxing, and BJJ later, but the constant practice against a resisting and countering opponent is the single best way to train outside of actually picking fights with strangers (which is simply not polite nor legal).

(...dismount soapbox.)

while i think that you have some excelent points there are definately some positive aspects to forms.

1) forms teach the muscles to work together

2) forms are a wealth of singular techniqus

3) a form will increase the practicioners strength speed and stamina. take the most basic form that you have, and do it as hard fast clean and in as deep a stance as you can. after doing that tell me that it has no conditioning value at all.

[Erik]

while i think that you have some excelent points there are definately some positive aspects to forms.

1) forms teach the muscles to work together

2) forms are a wealth of singular techniqus

3) a form will increase the practicioners strength speed and stamina. take the most basic form that you have, and do it as hard fast clean and in as deep a stance as you can. after doing that tell me that it has no conditioning value at all.
It's got great conditioning value, especially static muscles, which are very good for you in a similar way to yoga. Especially true when doing deep stances and trying to move around without letting the head bob up and down - that's exhausting (especially when you weigh as much as I do).

However, no street fight I've been in or seen was not decided within 120 seconds, which makes me doubt the need of such conditioning.

And I'd prefer wrestling/boxing/kickboxing conditioning routines for the fitness, though. Squats with a medicine ball, laps of crab walk and farmer's walk, lounges, pushups, bag work for time, jogging, jogging, jogging... all those tortures I think are far better for endurance.

And as for the techniques, I still believe that practicing them on air is of little use at best and teaches one to do it wrong at worst. One needs another body with which to work.

I can practice my heel-hook or guard passes all day and it won't teach me much if I don't have another body upon which to practice.

[SRK85]

Tae Kwon Do sparring probally wont work on the street. Kicking doesnt work too well in combat situations and most of TKD sparring is kicking. Only if the art invovles a lot punching like boxing or kneeing like muay thai.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Wow look at this thread coming back from the archives!

and I didn't even post on it :laugh: till now

To borrow a phrase from the underground forum:

Eric has full speed choked out the correct.......

To add something though, if you are looking for all around self defense in your training you need to do drills too. I am talking about drills with a partner that quickly work up to full speed. Drills that represent common attacks that you need to immediately respond too. I am NOT talking about prearranged routines where someone is worried about their foot being one inch off or their fist not being perfect like kata.

An example for BJJ would be one person with gloves, attacking with strikes and the other closing the distance and executing a takedown. You should mix the drills up, working up to making them a surprize as to what attack will happen. Then work up to adding multiples and weapons. In my experience if you do not do this, you end up concentrating your training on beating those that do the same style.

[Lee82mark4]

Here is a decent thread on randori (sparring all out full force) in Judo.

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2548&highlight=randori


Mark

[Erik]

Eric has full speed choked out the correct.......
Huh? Does this mean you agree, like hit the nail on the head? Or that I choked out the correct answer, sufficating it, like fratracide? :confused:

(Sorry, Cliff - I'm blonde)

[Cliff Hargrave]

Huh? Does this mean you agree, like hit the nail on the head?

Yes, I agree :)

[DungeonWorks]

Amidst typing a responce here, I just went ahead and made a new thread. This thread is hi-jacked already and I didn't feel like adding to that.

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=9266

:bow:

[Patrick Hayes]

Jujutsukas call it "randori" same as judokas.



Actually, we used to call it "henka" (variations). Technically, any technique that's not part of a kata would be considered a henka-waza, but anyway. . . mmmmyep. That was our word for free-grappling.

[kwan kune]

Tae Kwon Do sparring probally wont work on the street. Kicking doesnt work too well in combat situations and most of TKD sparring is kicking. Only if the art invovles a lot punching like boxing or kneeing like muay thai.

kicking is great as long as its below the belt. above that it takes too much time

[jakmak52]

Absolutely not. Katas are good for kids or people who lack basic MA or mechanical dexterity but fighting air trains people to do things wrong, plain and simple.

(Climb up on soapbox...)

For real-life, katas teach wrong principles as:
1) there is no natural aiming point when striking, no target, just a point in space, which is not true to life, as your opponent will be moving and learning targeting is a huge lesson that must be learned,

2) there is nobody hiting you back so the kata-doer does not learn to protect himself against an unpredictable opponent,

3) it teaches someone to develop a sense of timing that is purely internal, i.e. not based upon siezing advantage of an opponent's lapses, which is intentionally putting the mind in the wrong place,

4) there is no resistance when hitting air and a fighter is apt to injure himself if he does not learn to hit against something massive like a heavy bag, side of beef, or the like,

5) kata teaches self-balance and, as per Newton's 1st law, if you kick or hit something, it will push back against you which, in real life, can knock you right over,

6) kata is choreographed which teaches a person to do things in an artifical order whereas, by definition, real fights are very difficult to predict and managing these unpredictable strings of events is the key to survival (and even more so for victory),

7) kata teaches silly, irrelevant details, such as looking pretty or semetric or aesthetically balanced, all of which put the mind in completely the wrong place for real-life fighting,

8) kata convinces a person that certain techniques will work when in fact they are learning them wrong as the practicioner is doing the techniques in their own little world, one that will be burst open upon first contact with a real opponent,

9)most importantly, katas rob the practicioner of an unwilling, uncompliant, fully-countering and resisting opponent, which is the single most vital part of training for real life.

In 5 years of bouncing during which time I inflicted 7 choke-outs, two broken arms, a broken leg, and survived numerous other dramas in which I was able to subdue my opponent(s) without injury to them (and never myself), the most important MA training I had was actually high school wrestling and college water polo. Both taught me to manage chaos and both, strangely, were more difficult than real fights (go figure).

I only discovered judo, kickboxing, and BJJ later, but the constant practice against a resisting and countering opponent is the single best way to train outside of actually picking fights with strangers (which is simply not polite nor legal).

(...dismount soapbox.)


I disagree :)
In Kata, we learn with an imaginary opponent, only the body movements and the use of a wide range of techniques of attacks and blocks.

In Kumite, we learn to apply, against one or many opponents, all the techniques found in Kata.

Thus Kumite is the practice of Kata with Maai (the integration of distance, timing, and reach).

The importance of Kata to kumite in some disciplines of martial arts can be compared to the two wheels of a cart.

[jakmak52]

Tae Kwon Do sparring probally wont work on the street. Kicking doesnt work too well in combat situations and most of TKD sparring is kicking. Only if the art invovles a lot punching like boxing or kneeing like muay thai.

Are you referring to ITF or WTF TKD?

[bloodymonkey117]

kicking works in combat... just not over-the-top 720degree spinning death-kicks of doom... and as for the whole sparring thing... lol, you could always have one of your friends assaultyou from some random direction like in the movie Prodigal Son.

Saving that, sparring gets you the closest to actual combat that you can get without going out and getting jumped, going to war, or picking fights. :bandit:

[chickenmonkey]

"Sparring.

Just want to hear opinions."

I enjoy sparring, it's fun and good excercise and a good yard stick to see how you are progressing.

As for prparing you for a real life situation, it defininately helps. It trains your reflexes, helps movement and flow. But it is still only one tool in the box.

Kata/form is good mental training, you should be able to visualis your opponents and gain a deeper understanding of your arts principles. It is also good for condtioning.

The principles you learn should enable you to counter many attacks, but only if they are instinctve. Mental conditioning plays a huge part. I used to visualise being attacked, I would focus until I really felt threatened and my adrenaline would surge. Then I would visualise my responses and replay the fight in my mind over and over until it was fluid. Then I would practise the moves as I visualised the attack. The last time I was in a real situation, I was able to maintain my composure and not panic.

But the best way to defend yourself is to avoid the fight, which most of the time is entirely possible as long as you are able to read the situation. Reading an opponent should begin at the first sign of trouble, it is more than just reading their fighting techniques, as by then it is too late.

We, as martial artisits are given many tools and they all have a use in some situations, but lets not forget, we are also practising an art form.

[Chrono]

kicking works in combat... just not over-the-top 720degree spinning death-kicks of doom... and as for the whole sparring thing... lol, you could always have one of your friends assaultyou from some random direction like in the movie Prodigal Son.

Saving that, sparring gets you the closest to actual combat that you can get without going out and getting jumped, going to war, or picking fights. :bandit:

That's some good stuff there.

[PooterMan]

I got the mental picture of Kato attacking Inspector Clouseau and the whole topics seriousness went downhill from there for me.

[miz_sammi_girl]

I enjoy sparring, i think its relaxing!

[Erik]

Perhaps the discussion would fare better if we defined the rules for our particular flavors of sparring.

For example, in BJJ we have no striking and we start on the ground (at my gym, at least) unless we specify MMA-rules. (Claim to fame - did MMA w/o gloves with Cameron Earle a few months ago. I think that he [B}might[/B] have found me mildly amusing. At least he wasn't talking with other people while beating the heck out of me.)

We restrict leg submissions and don't do a lot of neck-cranking. No hits to the groin if we can help it, but somehow this doesn't matter a lot while wrestling once one has learned to move a certain way. Many guys wear cups.

Maneuvering, positioning, and arm submissions and chokes are all at "gentlemen's full speed" which means that it's up to the workout partners to agree upon how intense athletically they want to get.

That being said, the magic of what we do is the competition and the work against a moving, defending, and countering, opponent. To me, this "action chess" is excellent training and such a magnificent, invigorating, full of life challenge, and I get so much joy from it.

Good for fitness, too, though a purely aerobic adjunct is still needed.

[lightninrod]

The group I used to practice with did sparring, but the attacker and defender roles were usually designated. Almost anything was allowed, as we all knew each other and trusted each other enough to not permanently injure anyone. Necks were popped, nuts were attacked (often successfully), noses were bloodied, and people often hit the ground really hard. Everybody tried all sorts of attacks and defences and learned alot about what works and what doesn't. It was really good practice and I miss it. So, I have to give sparring a "thumbs-up" as long as it's done with realism in mind and good intentions on the part of the participants.

[jeet kune do student]

I don't think sparring can train you for any type of real life combat because you just don't have the adrenaline rushing through your body the same way. When you spar, you're not afraid for your life and therefore the situation is not really as urgent - there are rules and so you somewhat know what to expect. In a real life situation, you can never know what to expect and so you would act differently in that specific situation.
Sparring might not get you has hiped up as a real fight but the real things you have to learn is reaction. so in sparring you learn how to take a punch, how to spot openning, and how to control the tempo os a fight. and you do and can get caught up in it just like a real fight so sparring is probley one of the best tools a martail artiest has to prepare for real combat.

[Iron Dove]

imo the best way to train in something is to apply it in adverse situations/circumstances.

[Ayla]

Sparring is the best way to train because it gets your reflexes better. It also makes you do the block properly as you will get hit if you dont! ;)

[DragonMind]

Sparring is the best way to train because it gets your reflexes better. It also makes you do the block properly as you will get hit if you dont! ;)
Sorry, I have to somewhat disagree. Sparring is ONE way to train and it has good and bad points about it. The best training is when you vary what you are doing so that every method's weakness is covered by something else's strengths. Then you become well-rounded.

[Jeff Burger]

Barry
Arent you supposed to be on vacation?

[TroyRoget]

I agree that sparring is very important to training. However I have to respectfully disagree with Erik on his soapbox speech.


1) there is no natural aiming point when striking, no target, just a point in space, which is not true to life, as your opponent will be moving and learning targeting is a huge lesson that must be learned,

This is only true of poor kata practise. A good practitioner visualizes an opponent in his/her mind and knows exactly what part of the body is being targeted with each technique.


2) there is nobody hiting you back so the kata-doer does not learn to protect himself against an unpredictable opponent,

3) it teaches someone to develop a sense of timing that is purely internal, i.e. not based upon siezing advantage of an opponent's lapses, which is intentionally putting the mind in the wrong place,

These aren't really the purpose of kata. This is why you have to practice other things as well.


4) there is no resistance when hitting air and a fighter is apt to injure himself if he does not learn to hit against something massive like a heavy bag, side of beef, or the like,

5) kata teaches self-balance and, as per Newton's 1st law, if you kick or hit something, it will push back against you which, in real life, can knock you right over,

Both of these are true, which is why bag/makiwara training is important. What kata does teach you is how to keep your body positioned correctly so that you do not overcommit to a technique and unbalance yourself, which is a danger if one were to only practice against a bag. One thing I learned while working with some judoka for a while is that a lot of the throws from judo are made nearly impossible unless the uke is off balance from an overcommitted technique. If you always strike to a bag, you will never get into the habit of controlling your techniques.


6) kata is choreographed which teaches a person to do things in an artifical order whereas, by definition, real fights are very difficult to predict and managing these unpredictable strings of events is the key to survival (and even more so for victory),

That is only true if you see kata as an entire choreographed fight. I see most kata as a set of techniques that are grouped together based on a common idea contained in the techniques. The techniques aren't necessarily to be used in the order that they occur in the kata. For example, Passai contains and opening technique, and then a number of different follow-ups based on how your opponent reacts to the initial technique. The follow-ups are one after the other, but they aren't to be performed in that order: they are to be performed after the initial technique. This allows the kata practitioner to have exactly the kind of adaptability that you're saying they need.


7) kata teaches silly, irrelevant details, such as looking pretty or semetric or aesthetically balanced, all of which put the mind in completely the wrong place for real-life fighting,

Again, only poor kata practice. Naihanchi, for example, is a rather boring-to-watch kata, but it is one of the most important imho.


8) kata convinces a person that certain techniques will work when in fact they are learning them wrong as the practicioner is doing the techniques in their own little world, one that will be burst open upon first contact with a real opponent,

Only if the practitioner doesn't test the techniques out on a real opponent.


9)most importantly, katas rob the practicioner of an unwilling, uncompliant, fully-countering and resisting opponent, which is the single most vital part of training for real life.

If I had to choose one thing to do to train for real life, I would choose to train with a resisting opponent. But I don't have to choose one thing. Kata doesn't rob you of unwilling opponents: you can still work with a resisting opponent and do kata.

Kata is a part of your training. It doesn't replace training with a live opponent, and it is even quite possible to become a very effective fighter without kata. However, I have found that kata has helped a lot with understanding what I'm doing in a fight.

Kata is something that takes a long time to understand. I think that I only began to "get it" about six months ago, and I've been doing kata for five years. But the relationship between kata and fighting is very helpful in learning to defend oneself. By understanding a technique in kata I gain more insight to how the technique works against an opponent, and by understanding a technique against an opponent I learn to understand it in kata which in turn lends even more insight to how to use it against an opponent.

I realize that a lot of karateka practice kata for years and do nothing else, and therefore have misconceptions about the effectiveness of their technique. But for the most part people who practice kata know that kata training isn't effective by itself. It's kata balanced with kihon and kumite that makes an effective martial artist.

I say this with all due respect to your martial arts background and experience. I know that you've been doing martial arts longer than me, and perhaps I will see the error of my ways after more training. It just seems to me that your criticisms of kata are based on a martial arts background that hasn't included enough kata to give you an understanding of how kata is integrated into a person's training.

[renegade]

I'm not going to slam time-honoured and in some cases, ancient methods of training, but will just comment on my own dojo experience which is limited to a few years, granted, but also on personal experience on the street and job experience tussling with beligerent inmates. The dojo I used to attend utilized randori for learning, and to be honest, I found it of very, very little use to me. I would have to take it on faith if you were to tell me that after perhaps a decade or more of traidtionalist martial arts dojo training where there was no actual full-contact sparring that my body would eventually somehow learn how to move on its own. But for practical purposes, I can safely say that just by simply my own stature, strength, personal life experience, etc that I would be able to defeat every black belt student in one of my old dojos save maybe one in a real fight. I'm not a 'tough guy', I'm just saying that these folks were there to train for the fun of it mostly to learn the 'art' part of 'martial art', and not to be fighters. Even so, at the BB rank, I don't feel the randori setting gave them the tools to be fighters anyway, but it definitely was better than nothing at all for people who aren't fighters to begin with. On the same token, I'd feel far more confident in a fight if I had a year or more of putting on the gloves and going 3 rounds full-out against an opponent to back me up. That's why I've given up on traditional martial arts that employ randori, or "1 step sparring" as I've seen it called and have decided to attend a club that actually train fighters to compete in sactioned fights. IMO, there's nothing than can more closely approach a fight than... a fight. That's why I voted for sparring.

[TroyRoget]

I voted for sparring too. I'm just saying that a vote for sparring doesn't necessarily mean a vote against kata or randori.

[DragonMind]

Barry
Arent you supposed to be on vacation?
Umm... check the date on that post...

BTW I'm back. (Commanding grasp of the obvious, huh?)

[TroyRoget]

There's something weird going on with this thread in my browser. It keeps displaying as being updated, but there aren't any new posts (that I can see).

[Cliff Hargrave]

There's something weird going on with this thread in my browser. It keeps displaying as being updated, but there aren't any new posts (that I can see).

Whenever someone votes in the poll it updates.

[TroyRoget]

Ah... And I call myself a computer science major...

[Thai boxing badger]

In some lessons my Kru does sparring for the ring enviroment, or the street enviroment and how MT can help in street situation. :)

[ade]

sparring is a very effective tool if you make it as real as possible when i spar i make it full contact so it is very real to sparr and not actually make contact seems pointless to me unless you are only trying to improve speed or technique

[s.henson]

or control

[HanDragon]

I do not care for sparring. I see no correlation to sparring with limited targets, limited techniques, and padded protectors and groin cups (for us guys) to a street fight where anything can and usually does happen. IMO sparring is good for those students who wish to be in competitions in which the prementioned factors are constant. Other than that, I don't see the usefulness of sparring.

Just my opinion....and we all know what opinions are like.

[Cliff Hargrave]

I do not care for sparring. I see no correlation to sparring with limited targets, limited techniques, and padded protectors and groin cups (for us guys) to a street fight where anything can and usually does happen. IMO sparring is good for those students who wish to be in competitions in which the prementioned factors are constant. Other than that, I don't see the usefulness of sparring.

Just my opinion....and we all know what opinions are like.

So Daron, what do you do in your training that is better than sparring and prepares you more for street fights?

[HanDragon]

Never said that I had found anything that is "better" than sparring or that prepares more for street fighting. I just don't care for sparring, and don't think that it can prepare you for street fighting with all the rules that are involved. Practicing techniques until they are imbedded in the muscle memory seems like would be a good idea though.

Once again, just my opinion

[Oscar Recio]

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=222

Using Takamura´s sensei words:

(...)they see the kata as the art itself instead of a sophisticated teaching tool that is only a surface reflection of an arts core concepts. The kata, in their flawed interpretation "is" the art. This is like the flaw of assuming a dictionary to be a complete representation of language.

This is one of the main problems when judging the Kata and it purpose. The article is a worthy reading, seriously. The process is FROM the Kata TO the freestyle (randori, sparring...freedom of action).

Just my 2 cents,

[Cliff Hargrave]

Never said that I had found anything that is "better" than sparring or that prepares more for street fighting. I just don't care for sparring, and don't think that it can prepare you for street fighting with all the rules that are involved. Practicing techniques until they are imbedded in the muscle memory seems like would be a good idea though.

Once again, just my opinion


If sparring can't prepare you, and nothing is better, then why train? You yourself said you see no correlation between sparring and street fights yet now you say there are no other training methods that do either.

Muscle memory is a fallacy. It's been proven time and time again that it doesn't work. You have to be able to respond to a moving, live, attacking opponent. The only way to do this is by training against a moving, live, attacking opponent.

All training methods, including sparring, have flaws (thank you Rory). That would be the "rules" you talk about. It's up to you to recognize those flaws, and train in a way that makes up for them. I am sure that in your training you have rules. If you are practicing a technique with a partner I am sure you are not breaking his wrist or slamming him face first into the ground. You have an agreement or dojo rules that you abide by. All types of training have these flaws. So using that excuse to say sparring isn't relavent is pretty weak.

[TonyU]

Nice post Cliff, the only thing I would at to this

You have to be able to respond to a moving, live, attacking opponent. The only way to do this is by training against a moving, live, attacking opponent.
which I'm sure it's what you implied is resistant opponent.

[Erik]

Hi Troy,

I just read your post (#47).

That was a really good one.

You got me thinking, that's for sure.

-E

[HanDragon]

Cliff...If I have somehow stepped on your toes by sharing my opinion, then I apologize. But the thread that started all this was asking for people's opinions and mine just happens to be that I don't like sparring. Calling someone's opinions weak is very disrespectful. After all, it is not one's opinion that makes him a jerk, it is his notion that his opinion is worth more than another's.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Cliff...If I have somehow stepped on your toes by sharing my opinion, then I apologize. But the thread that started all this was asking for people's opinions and mine just happens to be that I don't like sparring. Calling someone's opinions weak is very disrespectful. After all, it is not one's opinion that makes him a jerk, it is his notion that his opinion is worth more than another's.


You haven't stepped on anything. Weak wasn't disrespectful at all. Your position is not backed up with anything so it's weak. After all it's a discussion forum, so let's discuss. If you would rather insinuate that I am a jerk instead then I guess that's ok too. That would be ashame though because I actual thought I was engaging in a discussion with a martial artist. Too bad I was wrong. If you want to drop the name calling and actually talk about training then I am still game. However your post just spoke volumes about you.

[Ninjalord]

Sparring is great. I can honestly say that if I had never sparred with anyone, then I would have lost every fight I have ever been in, and would probably not be alive today. Sparring, in my opnion is the best method for actual training for any situation. It encourages new ways of thinking, and help prepare you for combat. In all my 14 years of training, i have had only two rules in sparring, not intentional bone breaking, and no intentional groin shots. Other than that, I am a full contact kinda guy. Once you get hurt in certain ways, you learn how to better defend against those ways. I guarantee you, take a beginner, and put him in a sparring match with an advanced student, and who will win? The answer is obvious. Why? Because of the experience in actual combat training. The military utilizes sparring in hand to hand training for the purposes of prep for live combat. Without sparring, how would you learn to properly apply the techniques that are being taught? How much pressure to apply, where to apply it, what to do if you are in a bad spot? You learn all of this through sparring. When you understand how the techniques are being applied to you through sparring, you better understand how to apply them in return. But anyway, I am rambling again. I could go on for pages, but I think I got my point across.

[HanDragon]

Cliff...I did not call anyone anything. It seems to me that you are reading things into my posts that are not meant the way you are receiving them. Perhaps I too have read emotions in your posts that were not entirely correct. Simply put, I felt that I was being attacked for having an opinion, which is what the beginning of the thread asked for. I do not know you, nor have I been a member here at Budoseek long enough to make a judgement on anyone's character, therefore there is no need for me to start "name-calling". Besides I try not to be judgemental toward others just as I wouldn't want them to judge me.

I never stated that I had all the answers about sparring or not sparring...just that IN MY OPINION, I don't care for it and I don't THINK it prepares one for actual combat. If you like sparring and think it is essential, by all means do as you wish, but do not attack me for having an opinion that just happens to be different.

I have no wish to be argumentative to anyone here at Budoseek...each of us have the right to our own opinions.

Once again...If I have offended you or anyone else...I apologize, it certainly wasn't my intention.

I extend the hand of friendship.

[Grei]

I think you're both misconstruing eachother at the moment, so might be a good idea just to drop it... I don't think either of you is trying to be offensive toward the other or agress the other in any way. So we can maybe move on?


But ANYways, on the subject of sparring and whether it's usefull or not...

I'll just say one thing. It definately is very important.

Then I'll say some other things...

I discovered this not just a day ago for myself, in practice instead of just theory. When I met a guy who lives down street from me... now this guy, he actually tought himself to fight from watching taekwondo videos oddly enough... suffice to say I was skeptical. So there's me, with my formalized actually goign to a school kung-fu training, where I practice all the movements and techniques and forms what seems like a million times by now, but haven't used them against a resisting opponent yet. Against HIM, who hasn't gone to any kind of formalized school... but taught himself basic taekwondo from trial and error via video and REAL PEOPLE.

Moving on...

It was interesting, I know hot to kickblock as well as the back of my hand, BETTER than the back of my hand. I can do it without thinking. Yet somehow, when he sent a flying kick to my head, all I could do was sort of attempt to duck away a bit.

Analyzing back at it, I realize that this was because I was conflicted. I might even have done better with no real training, because part of me knew to do the block and wanted to, but the rest of me just wanted to get out of the way. Which of course means I didn't really manage to do either. It's just lucky for me he wasn't actually trying to hurt me.

What it is, I think, is a reflex thing. Your body knows what to do, and your mind knows what to do, but it's not all in tune with your reflexes and the right part of your mind untill you get that training. And don't let some people fool you, it's definately possible to train your reflexes. Just like it's possible to train your eyes to 'see faster', both of those I learned through fencing. (fencing being nice because there's a lot fewer different movements, so they pretty much start you off 'sparring')

It's one thing to do the technique perfectly, it's another to do it perfectly under the stress of the moment. (for instance the intriguing bullet-man thread.)

Of course, the sparring has to be done correctly, but it's pretty much like that with any training process. Sparring is by no means a see all end all, nor is it necessarily vital, but for most people... yeah. It's going to be important.


Another thing good sparring will teach you is to keep your head in a fight. Which means that while you're USED to fighting with pads and stuff, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that you aren't in a real situation. Nor that getting hit is NEVER a good idea.

(And also, HanDragon, there's no problem debating opinions with people, long as everyone keeps their head and doesn't get too worked up over it. It's not argumentative untill peoples heads DO somehow turn up in the last place they would expect to look.)

[HanDragon]

(And also, HanDragon, there's no problem debating opinions with people, long as everyone keeps their head and doesn't get too worked up over it. It's not argumentative untill peoples heads DO somehow turn up in the last place they would expect to look.)[/QUOTE]


I'm not worked up....lol....just defending my opinion :cool:

[Grei]

Well, I just mentioned that because you seemed to be of the opinion that just because something was only an opinion meant that nobody should question it. But maybe I got things out of it that you didn't mean to put there.

[HanDragon]

Questioning an opinion is fine...calling one's opinion a "weak excuse" is disrespectful. That is what I took issue with.

[Grei]

Not necessarily, but this is why online arguments get tense sometimes, there's no room for vocal inflection. Calling it weak isn't necessarily an insult in any way, it just means that the person doing the calling doesn't see any substantial argument in favor of said opinion.

[HanDragon]

Whatever....I have become bored with this discussion, and I no longer wish to participate in it.

And that is my opinion on that....lol

[Musubi Dojo]

When I was in my teens and early twenties I LIVED for semi to full contact sparring. I especially liked kicking guys in the head because I'm big and no ever thought I could do it.

I liked nothing better than to pound the crap out of people and recieve the same. I got my jaw disclocated, breaks in both feet, shoulder dislocations, disconected ACL, etc......

15 years later I walk with a slight limp on rainy days and gobble Advil Gel caps after a long walk or workout.

These days not walking means not being able to pay the mortgage which is unacceptable.

I just joined a Shoryin Ryu club to drill basics and learn kata. Stuff I can practice on my own with out more trips to the hospital. Training has always meant a lot to me and getting back into it pure bliss. I don't care if I ever rank again.

The point to my meandering post is that Kata, sparring and drills are all part of the same animal to be practiced depending on your experience and desire.
A season for all things so to speak.

Cheers
c

[Tony Dismukes]

Chris, one thing I've noticed is that folks who have experience in hard-contact sparring are able to get much more benefit from light-contact sparring or less-intense timing drills. Students who have only experienced light contact tend to play "tag" from outside real fighing range. With your background, you could probably keep yourself sharp using the less punishing variations of sparring, without worrying so much about developing bad habits.

[TonyU]

Chris, one thing I've noticed is that folks who have experience in hard-contact sparring are able to get much more benefit from light-contact sparring or less-intense timing drills. Students who have only experienced light contact tend to play "tag" from outside real fighing range. With your background, you could probably keep yourself sharp using the less punishing variations of sparring, without worrying so much about developing bad habits.
Good point Tony. I do belive eveyone should get some experience with some hard realistic sparring.
I still like to pound, as I sit here typing this with both my elbows and right leg on fire.
But I do concetrate more on technique than I used to. I like to think I fight smarter now, not harder.

[Musubi Dojo]

Chris, one thing I've noticed is that folks who have experience in hard-contact sparring are able to get much more benefit from light-contact sparring or less-intense timing drills. Students who have only experienced light contact tend to play "tag" from outside real fighing range. With your background, you could probably keep yourself sharp using the less punishing variations of sparring, without worrying so much about developing bad habits.

I agree completely Tony. Everybody who wants to be prepared for actual violence needs to experience forceful blows to the head or body at one point or another. A steady diet of it is no good, but the experience itself is neccesary. The first time someone takes a shot to the head they almost always go into momentary shock or turtle up. If my Shorin Ryu Sensei punched me in the ribs full force I'd have a lung dangling from my chin.

Tag without a dose of reality makes for uncomfortable surprises.



Good point Tony. I do belive eveyone should get some experience with some hard realistic sparring.
I still like to pound, as I sit here typing this with both my elbows and right leg on fire.
But I do concetrate more on technique than I used to. I like to think I fight smarter now, not harder.

Yup. :)

Cheers
c

[TIRAGION]

I chose other, because in my opinion sparring is a bit of both options. Sparring has rules therefore its a sport. However full contact sparring while it does not prepare you for an unexpected violent assault (real life combat-- bad guys dont come out and ask you if you want to slag some leather), but it does teach you abit on how it feels to taste your own blood and still keep cool

Alexander Rakita

[doubleouch]

Training smart and sparring doesn't always mean going full tilt. As I get older I find that I do more isolation sparring and less full out sparring. My body can't take it as much anymore. I may do a round of takedowns only, or hands only, or hands and kicks without takedowns etc. I find that this improves my game tremendously without having such a hard toll on my body.

As for the sparring is not streetfighting debate, it's a tired one. Everyone knows they are not the same thing. Unless you are willing to go out and start streetfights to test yourself we have to be satisfied with sparring. Working in night clubs I've seen plenty of street fights. What I saw was lots of punching, kicking, clinch, ground fighting, in fact 98% of what I saw was legal in MMA and exactly what you practice when you spar.

Assault is another matter. Assault is when someone hits you in the back of the head with a baseball bat. No martial arts training will help with that. Assault is the knife to the kidney that you don't see coming. I'm sure there is a kata that will help with that though?

[kbarrett]

I just love sparring whether it's light contact or full contact, there's nothing I love better than sparring.

Fress sparring is as close to the real thing as you'll get, the only other way to get any closer to the real thing, is to head out into the streets and see what happens.

Ken Barrett