Egos sparring you in class time what would you do in this situation?

[Hardcore Fighter]

Okay I am a 2nd degree black belt in TKD. I am 20. Most people in my class are older. at least in their 30s.

This guy comes back to class who has been gone for 3 whole years!! He comes back and things seem to be okay.

But then when we spar he gets all crazy! First off the my instrcutore is like "Sparring with good controle. be careful." He just wanted us to play around a bit you know.

Anyway the guy who was sparring me who was gone for 3 years is in his 30's i think. When we fight he all of a suddan gets all crazy on me and he is a 1 legged fighter and thought he was all baddass. And im like casually trying foot work and stuff and then he like throws front leg sidekicks and hits hard! Im like whats he doing? And then he gets in close and grabs me and holds me tight which is against the rules. Then he throws some elbows at my head withot making contact but still that is against the rules. Then he knees me in the side and makes some contact. Im like okay what the heck is going on?!?! So I get out of that position and im getting pretty pissed off and about to kick some major ass and I say to my instructore "Hey is this olympic style rules or a street fight im confused." and then the guy is like trying to kick me really hard and hitting me with stupid sidekicks. I was about to kick his ass really hard but then my instructor is like "All right everyone go-mon (stop)"

Anyway I was not at all going hard I wasnt hitting hard or even trying to win or anything. I pretty much let him hit me, but I didnt think he was going to try to beat me up. I was being really polite. But that type of thing pisses me off.

My instructor talked to the guy after class and was like "Hey why were you doing that?" and he says "Well i just thought you know give what you get. I just thought he would give me what I gave." And my instructor says "Well next time you want to do that you need to ASK. And really I dont think you could handle what he could give you. I do not want you going home with bruises all over your face or anything. But if you want to fight like that you need to ask him first. He was being really polite."

The guy hasnt came back to class since.


Anyway what would you have done in that situation? Would you have just went nuts and beat the crap out of the guy or would you have been polite?
Have you ever gone through this stuff before?

Andrew Allwander

[wab25]

First off, I think you handled the situation right. So did your sensei. You should be honored that your sensei chose you to test this returning student. This shows that your sensei trusts your skill, control and attitude.

The next thing I would do, is really think about what happened. What he did was not legal, but martial arts were developed for the battlefield. Ask yourself a few questions. How do you defend against his attacks, specifically the illegal ones? If you don't know how to defend those attacks, focos on that area. If you do know how, why didn't you? Were you surprised, caught off guard?

The reason I ask is not to belittle you or your skill at all. Simply that I learn from things going wrong. When in randori, when I lose, or fail to pull off a technique, thats when I learn the most. It forces me to analyze what I did and why, and where I can improve. Everytime you get hit, you should be finding a new hole in your defense. Then, once it is identified, it can be closed. I would much rather find the holes in a dojo than on the street.

[Jeff Burger]

wab25

Per forum rules please include your full name.

Egos...
I tell people if they dont feel comfortable sparring with someone...DONT.
This came up tonight cause I have a couple of guys who are ab it gung ho.
If 2 people agree on a hard level of contact thats fine but they have gone a bit hard with newbys so I dont let them spar with everybody.
I do like people to spar hard but safety has to be #1...#2 is have fun...so if someone is ruining your fun and jeapordizing your safety dont spar with them.

These 2 guys do miss some sparring time...their only punishment...so far.
Besides each other their are only 4 others I let them spar with.

Jeff

[Gae-Bek]

Andrew,

I see this happen all the time. I teach (Martial Arts) at the University Of Wisconsin-Whitewater and every semester we get one or two 18-20 year-old guys (sometimes Black Belts...sometimes not) who come in and think that they can take me and/or my buddy Trent (the head instructor).

My solution with them is to use just-enough energy to minimally dodge/block/counter them, and give them a light kick in the head. Nothing too hard...just enough to let them know that if I really would've wanted to...I could've done damage. Usually, they get the picture after 5 or 6 times, and back-down.

A few times I've had guys (who just didn't get it) push me to the point where I've "dropped the hammer"...so to speak. Sometimes I feel sorry for them, but I also feel that anyone who goes school-to-school looking to take-on its top fighters, deserves whatever they get.

When I go to Milwaukee to visit my instructor, I work-out with a lot of older individuals. LOTS of times, they'll hit harder than they are supposed to. Lots of times, I'll throw a controlled kick and STOP IT within an inch of their face...just to have them push it out of the way and blast me while I'm off-balance.

Sure, it happens. And yes, it's aggravating. But what I try to remember is that-

Power ISN'T showing your might at every turn, and handing-out humiliating defeats to those of lesser ability. TRUE POWER, is knowing what you could've done if you'd REALLY wanted to, and showing mercy to others [who may not fully-understand what you are capable of].

Just my $0.02

Aaron Ploetz

[Hardcore Fighter]

wab25 that is good advice. And yeah I could have defended myself from his knees and elbows and his grabbing. But we wre practicing the sport fighting not the self defense fighting at this time. My master says "Be controlled". He just wanted us to play around lightly and not too seriously and work on new techniques and footwork and stuff.
But yeah the guy didnt ask me to fight hard or anything. He just goes wild. It was anoying and I could have easily wasted him. But I didnt.


Aaron,
Yeah that is the kind of stuff im talking about. You lightly kick them and have your foot an inch from their face and then the push it away and smack you really hard and then act like they are still better! What morons. They dont seem to get it that if you wanted to you could waste them. But my situation I am the 20 year old guy but I am not egotistical. Its the older guys who have the ego. Its like they are just out to prove somethine to me or whatever. It pisses me off. I held back for awhile and just when i was about to go off on the guy my master told us to stop.

Yeah egos are anoying.

[wab25]

Again, the way you handled the situation was the right way. I think it is interesting that your master knew the right time to stop things. I think that you should focus on the things that went right. You were under control in an adverse situation. You remained in control of your emotions, in a demanding situation.

Another thing to consider is the definition of winning. My first sensei said that the definition of winning is "I can go to work tomorrow." There are situations on the street were it may be wise to give the guy the money, even though you could waste him. He may have friends around the corner, or a gun he didn't pull yet. If the cops show up, at the very least there is a lot of paper work, if they don't put you up for unnecessary use of force. Or the guy just might get lucky. If your definition of winning is "I can go to work tomorrow," then you give the guy your $10 and go about your business. Or maybe you walk/run away from a situation. ( I think we are all black belts in run-fu ) The whole idea of MA is to get you back to work or back to the things you want to do. If going to work tomorrow, requires you to break an arm or knock someone out, then thats what it takes. But, many, if not most of the time, winning, requires us to swallow our pride, give up the $10 or whatever, so long as we win. ( go to work tomorrow ) The great thing you did in your situation, was pick your response, and your level of response. The clear, controlled thinking you exibited in this situation is the same type of thinking you need on the street, the same type of thinking that will get you back to work tomorrow. How would your relationship with your master change, if you had knocked the guy out cold?

[Hardcore Fighter]

Well I think my master would have had a talk with me or whatever, but he would understand why I did it and he wouldnt hold me really responsible. He might talk to me and stuff but we would remain friends.

[Kenji]

But, if you're a hardcore fighter, don't you like that sort of thing?

[Hardcore Fighter]

Totally. If he told me thats what he wanted I would have been like okay lets go.

But he didnt. My master spacifically said "controlled technique".

[Kenji]

Maybe that guy would make a good training partner outside of class.

[Hardcore Fighter]

Kenji that is a good idea. I will try that next time. Heheh.

[LEFTHOOK]

Fighter I have often found myself in this situation as a boxing and thai style kickboxing instructor. The problem with training males is that ego becomes involved. Many men like to think that they are natural fighters and will immediatly come at you hard, they do not realize that fighting is like any other skill it needs to be developed.
I always tell my students that I will go as fast as they make me go when we spar and usualy a stout rap here or there will make them slow down but occationaly I have come across a knucle head like the fellow you met and may have to hit them harder than I wanted to keep them from hurting me. I have broke one knuckle heads arm with a roundhouse kick, I bruised a couple of knuckle heads ribs and, gave one guy a concussion. I am not proud of this but you can't let them beat up on you and some people just can't learn the easy way.

[Jeff Burger]

Digging up this post because we had a situation last night.

As I mentioned before I have some guys that get carried away.
Well last night the worst offender H. felt he got sucker punched...that the other person J. took advantage of him being off balance and popped him (and boy did he pop him).

Anyway H. exchanged a few words with J. and then then went at him for real.
(note dont attack people who can kick your ass).

I broke it up and to be honest I think I was the most POd of the 3 of us.
This is disrespectful to class,to your opponent, to me and it shows lack of self control and immaturity.

They both fed into the verbal abuse after I had broken it up.


It may seem strange but the H who lost his temper is the "yuppy, well to do, educated" guy.
I have known J for over 10 yeas and he definately has a past of being somewhat of a thug in his younger years kept his cool a bit longer.
That actually didnt suprise me as J. has been in many fights and the H. has probably never had a fight until that night.

Its difficult dealing out a punishment as both of these guys are my friends.
They verbally pathced things up afterwards ( though I dont trust it).
Im not sure what they time frame will be...Ill talk to them and see what they think about what happened.
If they realize the weight of what happened I may just not let them spar for awhile...J. will get half the time of H. seeing as H. started it but J. verbally fed into afterwards.
If they blow it off I may kick them out for awhile...again probably giving H. double J.'s time.

Luckily there was only 1 newby there (a teenager who thought it was cool :rolleyes: ).
Something like that results in other people not wanting to spar or even come to the school.

Next offense will be bye-bye forever.

Jeff

[tkdcanada]

There's that testosterone taking over again! :p

[jread]

Anytime I was in a situation where I was controlling myself, and the other person was going overboard, I'd just tune up to their level. The harder they went, the harder I would go. Eventually, they'd either back down or the instructor would stop us. I definitely don't put up with it, though.

One story comes to mind:

This guy joined up right after I had gotten my blackbelt. He was a 2nd degree blackbelt from another school, and he thought he was God's gift to martial arts. My instructor didn't like his attitude one bit.

Well, I get matched up with this guy and he is playing all his games... showing off as much as he can. I just stand there and let him dance around... waiting for him to really do something. Then he rushes right at me..... all I do is block everything and decide not to counter. He keeps doing this and each time he does it, his face is wide open.

After the third time, the instructor said, "I wouldn't rush him". Fourth time.... "You really shouldn't rush him"...... Fifth time, "WHAP!".... I landed a very solid punch straight to his face... his helmet flew off, and he was bent over holding his nose.

I did feel bad about it and apologized... but I had to show him that I wasn't going to be pushed around. My instructor kept warning him to stop and I held back as long as I could.

[Jeff Burger]

Welcome to Budoseek jread
Per forum rules please include real name.

Im hesitant to let anybody spar if they are new to the school.
Even more so if they have past training.

These guys were not just sparring hard...they always spar hard.
We do 3 rounds on with 1 round rest 3 times twice a week (so 9 rounds a night when 1 round rest every 3 rounds.

One attacked the other...some "lets go" words passed and J. not wanting to fight (J. was very surprised at H.'s reaction).
Then H. Just rushed in.

Ill be talking to H. tommorrow and letting him know the depth of his actions and depending on his reaction decide what level of punishment to go with.
I really hate being in that position. If it was teenagers I could understand it a bit better and be more comfortable in the talk...but this guy is older than me.
He is a friend and I HAD alot of respect for him.

Jeff

[jread]

Originally posted by Jeff Burger
Welcome to Budoseek jread
Per forum rules please include real name.

Thank you, and it is now on there :D

[Jeff Burger]

Forum rules real full name.

Jeff

[Jen]

I hate sparring with those egotistical people. We have one in my dojang. The guy shows up for class very rarely. he is very much my junior, and attempts to correct me. I have no problem with a junior correcting me, if they know what they're doing themselves. Really, they are supposed to tell a higher belt to correct me. This guy really loves to blast people in no contact sparring. I decided that I wouldn't give him that pleasure. I use him to practice my dodging. I also kinda aggrivate the guy and I occassionally will throw attacks at him. I think he is getting annoyed that he never gets a hit on me and I hit him with the same things all the time. I really do hope he'll get it soon. A few people have complained about him,and he does tend to spar less then others because he won't be put in a lot with that attitude. I must run off to french class now, but if I think of anything else I will return with that later.

[Hardcore Fighter]

Jeff Burger that is really crazy. But it is funny how that teenager thought it was so cool hahaha!

So why did J sucker punch the guy anyway? If he did really sucker punch him I and I was him I would have been pissed too but I dont think I would have lost it like that. Thats crazy. How many hits were taken and recieved before you broke it up?

There is a new orange belt in our school who has been an orange belt for 3 years at a previous school because he never tested because his mom always worked when he had to test. Anyway he always challenges all the blck belts and big people. he always challenges me and wants to fight. He has NO controle whatsoever. even in no contact. He even kicks the crap out of kids and lower belts sometimes!

Anyway it really anoys me and he needs to be humbled so I always fight him after class and stuff. Sometimes we street fight. Anyway he wanted to fight really bad again and he thought he was all bad. So im like okay 1 minute then I really have got to go. So we start and im just casually sparring and then like 5 seconds into it he smacks me in the face with a kick. We dont wear gear. So I was pissed and then I went really hard on him and trapped him in the corner and kept kicking him over and over and he had no where to run. Then I backed off to let him loose and he runs away and I just chase him and keep kicking and he throws a few kicks and I block and evade them and counter and he is like "Is it 1 minute yet!!" I said no we are going 5 mins now! And we fuaght some more but I got him good.
I think people like that need to know they are not as good as higher ranks and they need to be humble and have respect and not be ****y. And i think to do that you need to probably kick some of their ass's everyonce in awhile to show them who is boss.
But never lose controle and always know what you are doing and afterwards be respectful and kind. If they dont learn it soon thent hey probably never will.

[Jeff Burger]

J did not sucker punch H....H just claims he did.

Its a phenomena i have seen even in pro fights...somebody gets popped good and the other guy makes some excuse.

Everyone was pretty shocked. H. is 41 and J. is 29 H. always spars hard which gets him less sparring partners as I dont let him spar with everyone and some people dont want to spar with him. He has always been a bit reckless (selfish for his own scoring IMO). That hadnt reaaly been a problem cause I jsut let him spar with the toughers guys and let him takes some extra lumps that he seemed willing to take (though he really cant take a hit well).

I just dont loose my temper when sparring, ego wise sparring I can be a empty shell (no me). Which sometimes sets me too calm until I get hurt up a bit.

How many hits...
H. only landed a few, J. has more training and avoided most of the shots. J. didnt fire back until H.'s 2nd attempt / push thats when J. firedback landing most.
There werewords past after that but I think H. wasnt really going to go in for more he was just doing the obligatory hard guy bla bla.

Currently we have been using the situation in class as a teaching aid for tempers, adrenalin....

H. isnt going to see sparring for along time and probably even longer if ever before he can grapple again.

Jeff

[Hardcore Fighter]

Dude older men in their 40's or older are ALWAYS egotistical they get jelous of the young guys speed and stamina and skill and all that. Especially educated guys or doctors or whatever who are used to being held in high prestigue have a hard to with ego. Its anoying. I HATE sparring older men. They always get pissed off if I land a good hit and then its no longer fun.
Young guys also need to know not to go crazy on an older guy because its not polite and you should respect the fact they arnt going to be as fast or whatever.

[tkdcanada]

That is quite the generalization. Age is not necessarily the determining factor. First of all, a guy (or woman) 40 or older CAN have the speed and stamina of a 20 year old. It all depends on training and conditioning. Second, I would think that it's the 20 year old that will be egotistical with all that unchecked testosterone running through his veins. At least the older guy has had a chance to mellow a bit. The "older guy" will also likely have more experience (even if he's new to Martial Arts, he will be able to assess a sparring situation differently just from life experience and can learn to respond more intelligently because of that - the younger guy would most likely tend to act without thinking which at times can be good and at times get him into trouble). I'm no expert, I'm not a man and I'm not over 40, but I do know that that was a very unfair generalization and that your body doesn't just stop working as efficiently when you turn 40. That may be the case for some, but certainly not all. I'm 33 and can do anything that the younger students in my school can do and I can also last as long, sometimes longer and I am only getting in better shape as time goes on. I also have no ill effects the next day, and I don't plan on having that change anytime soon.

There is no need to take it easy on people who are a bit older. If they couldn't handle it, they wouldn't be there. When I spar, I want to know the person I spar with is giving their all, even if I am 15 years older than they are.

[Jeff Burger]

He is a high prestige guy...he owns a multimillion dollar company.
Yet another reason not to get yourself sued.

Its a hard situation for me. If it was a Karate student he would be out.
We run adult classes with more of a gym mentality than the traditional martial arts way.
He has helped us alot with the school (fund raisers....).
He is / was a friend of mine. Though now I will always have that piece of him in my memory.

I spar Im a empty shell...there is no ego. Somebody lands a good shot I say "good shot". I dont like people thinking I owe him one or Ill get him back...

I told him he isnt going to fight anybody but me and someone else told him not to find me for awhile.
He feels like crap and thats good...I want him too.
It will be along if ever before he sees the mat again. I feel the injuries that can happen there are generally far worse.

Im also not very negotiable because I just lost my prize student today.
Fightgrrl tore her achilles...not only is she one of my prize students she helps ALOT with the kids program and it doesnt pay.
I often say she is the school...Im just the guy up there in the pajamas yelling.
I think the student sense Im not its not a good time to be doing anything stupid right now.

I just got home and I stopped off at the store to get some Guinness (Im quite upset). A friend saw me and tried to give me a playful sneak attack (jumped out from a door way yelling HA and in a stance).
Booooyyy did he pick a baaaad day.
His comment from my look "what the **** dude you need to chill out...switch to decaf or something man".

I feel bad if any of my students get injured...we are a family.


:toast: (we need an emotocon with the black stuff)

Jeff

[tkdcanada]

It's sad when money decides how something is dealt with (and fear of getting sued). Whatever happened to doing what you think is right, regardless of who holds the most power. I can't stand that kind of control.

Sorry to hear about fightgrrl. I hope she has a speedy recovery. :)

[Jeff Burger]

I hope it didnt come across that I keep him around for the money...I dont.
He pays his monthly due like everyone else.
He and his wife help us with amny aspects of the school and are now on our board for the kids non profit program.

I feel its partly my fault...maybe I let him spar to early, maybe I did explain sparring attitude....enough.

I know it was a in the moment heated thing but those moments just can not happen in a martial arts class.

I just got the word from Fightgrrl...surgery :cry:.
She will be out for about 7 months.

Not only is she a prize student she is one of my best friends and one of the best friends I have ever had.

She has been stepping up her training to get ready for the IKF kickboxing nationals this August.

Im so bummed

Jeff

[tkdcanada]

No, not at all. I was actually trying to word my response so that you didn't think that's what I thought. Sorry! :(

All I meant was that all over in society, people seem to tiptoe around people who have money and prestige and they usually get away with so much as a result. It's one of my pet peeves and I refuse to let someone's prestige control how I treat them since they are no better than anyone else. I didn't mean you were doing that, I just meant in society in general. Since you mentioned he is a high prestige guy, I assumed it must be a factor.

You're right, there is no room in a martial arts class for explosive behaviour. I wouldn't be too hard on myself if I were you. The guy's not a kid, he should know without being told what proper sparring etiquette is and he should also know himself well enough to know if he can handle it without letting it take him away.

Surgery, argh! Seven months is a long time. But I'm sure no matter how bad you're feeling, she's feeling much worse - she won't be able to do anything and although I don't know her, I'm sure it'll probably be killing her. I know it would kill me.

I think it's great that you have such a family atmosphere in your school. I feel the same in my school. Are you sure you're not my instructor posing as someone else?? ;) Even you're moods seem the same.

[Jeff Burger]

I work part time at a hospital. I see far too many doctors that feel they are on a pedestal.

How about a doc that slaps a nurse?
It happened and I dont think he got in much trouble for it.
She did get quite a promotion along with a free education ride until she was qualified for the promotion.

I try to have classes classesless as far a social, money...
Example... youth classes...every has the same white gi. No going out and getting exspensive gis...
In the colder months I let them wear shoes. We get a inexspensive Keds type shoe...no one child can come in with $70 Adidas...brands. I want class to be an equalizer. Alot of our kids are on K.I.C.K. scholarships. They come from poor families, I dont want class to be another place where kids put other kids down over clothe$.
Its just them and they only thing that makes them stick out is work.

I run the adult classes with a more gym mentality not because I dont feel a traditional style isnt good, but because I dont feel most adults will recieve it.
Id compare the difference to that of a boxing gym versus the traditional school setting.

Jeff

[tkdcanada]

I hope I didn't offend you. My comment were in no way meant to be judgmental, just general observations. I didn't mean to make you feel like you have to explain. Sometimes connotations are hard to transmit and receive when communication is only in writing. :)

[Jeff Burger]

No prob...I didnt take it that way, but I wasnt sure.

Jeff

[Hardcore Fighter]

Maam you dont need to get all defensive over what I said. In many cases (that means a lot of cases) the older guys are not as conditioned or as good as the younger faster student. It is just the way the body goes. And yeah there are older men or women who are really good. But its kind of common sense to tell apart good from bad. And most older guys no matter how good they are will have an ego if a kid gets a good punch or a kick in. It is just the truth and I know it from all of my own personal experiences in martial arts.


If that situation happened in my school (if I owned one) I would punish the guy who did that and have a serious talk and let him calm down and listen to his case so he can get it out, and I would then tell him how I felt and if he didnt agree I would still punish him the same. But I am not going to kick a guy out for that one insident. Now if he had a history of that I would then kick him out. But IU dont think blowing up like that deserves to be kicked out of the school or not be a friend to you anymore. Just because he was your friend and now you have to punish him doesnt mean you cant be friends! If you still care about him show it but keep firm in your deisicion and its up to him if he wants to keep the friendship. After everything is cooled off I would mnake sure that he apologizes to the guy and they can both talk it out in my presents and that the guy he attacked would forgive him. And I would be firm in making that happen.
But if people keep being ****y and anoying and blowing up then they are out for sure. That is just how I would do it.

Also the guy seems like he cares about the school by the fund raisers he did. So he seems like he is putting things into the club.


Now who is this fight grrl? How old is she? Does she do no holds barred fights or just kickboxing? What type of martial arts do you do and teach?

[tkdcanada]

Hardcore fighter,

No big deal, but when people make generalizations about people in any way and stress ALWAYS as you did, then that gets under my skin. you last response was more like it. I still don't think MOST older guys will have an ego about a kid getting a good shot in. Any good martial artist, older, younger, guy, gal will be able to appreciate the skill of the younger fighter and not be threatened by the fact that the younger fighter made a good point on him. Such a big part of it is attitude and it isn't right to make the generalization you did. I don't know if you were asking me, but I am res-stripe in Taekwondo. I am not an instructor, I do however love it and spend as much time as I can training to be as good as I can be, so I am not an expert and would never claim to be - I still hvae so much to learn and am loving every minute of it. I just don't like to see people be generalized like that.

[Jeff Burger]

"Now who is this fight grrl? How old is she? Does she do no holds barred fights or just kickboxing? What type of martial arts do you do and teach?"

The queen of mean...the princess of pain...the dutchess of destruction.....
Fightgrrl...martial arts late bloomer. She started with Tai Chi as she was very over weight. Lost 70lbs in 5 months doing just Tai Chi (no diet...in fact the ANTIdiet) (lost well over 100lbs total).
From there she learned a weapon fomr and went and competed...took 1st place and had never taken a martial arts class so she decided she should.
She does Kick Boxing, grappling, Karate, Wushu, Tai Chi....everything we do.
3 years running Boston City weapons form champion, last year hand forms too (she did some point fighting but realized its POINTLESS FIGHTING...pull ed a double disqualification though).
Took 4th at the NAGC even though she tore her knee the Wednesday before the tournament...had to use a cane to get to the mat but still wanted to compete.
Got a really powerful round kick...got some guys that wont hold a kicking pad for her or spar hard with her.
She has been looking for her first full contact Kickboxing match (Muay Thai, San Shou, International rules...whatever she cuold get).
After that she wanted to do MMA.
Guys in the gym cant believe the weight she can lift. She could lift more than her wrestler boyfriend.
I think it hurt his ego when he did the "what would you do if I did this" thing and she almost broke his arm).

Am I getting the point acroos yet that she is tuff?

Also my best friend and cook extrodinaire.
Does alot fo work for the school with no pay.

Class to me is kind of sacred...my classmates and students are a brotherhood, a tribe, sacred hoop...whatever you want to call it.
Im closer to them than my own family.
When one gets hurt I feel it...when she gets hurt we all feel it.

Oh I almost forgot...she also drank a gallon of Guinness one night...Im out on 3...tops.

Jeff

[Hardcore Fighter]

Well TKD Canada people with politically correct attitudes about everything anoy the heck out of me so I guess we are even. If you dont think I typed something totally perfectly so everyone will be happy then keep it to yourself. There is no point in going crazy over someones post. I think the general public knew what I was saying.

You said " still don't think MOST older guys will have an ego about a kid getting a good shot in. Any good martial artist, older, younger, guy, gal will be able to appreciate the skill of the younger fighter and not be threatened by the fact that the younger fighter made a good point on him. "

Well how many "good martial artists" do you know? And how many are in your class who are older people? I am sure many many exist. But in a lot of cases the older guy might be a white belt or yellow belt or blue belt and the kid is a black belt. Or the older guy is a black belt who doesnt have as much flexibility as a red belt. People can get an ego over a lot of stuff. Also kids can get egos about how the guy is just an old dude and get pissed that the old guy hit him hard. I guess it can go both ways. In most of my experiences the older men I have fuaght at my school get mad if I get a good hit and a lot arnt even that great. I go easy on people who need it and hard on others who need it.

There I hope that was politically correct enough for you so I did not offend anyone and everyone can be happy and so we can all be uptight together and whine about peoples posts who wernt typed properly.

[Hardcore Fighter]

Wow that fightgrrl sounds pretty dang tough. I would like to see her fight and totally kick some ass.
And yeah point fighting IS POINTLESS FIGHTING! Good one! I wish there were more girls like that who were not afraid to seriously train in martial arts and become great fighters. Most girls complain when they get a small bruise or worry about breaking a nail. There was this black belt girl who actually was like "Oh no I broke a nail!" when she kicked a pad. It was funny. There are other girls in my class who complain about bruises on their shins or arms. It really anoys me. Its good to know that there are hardcore fighter women out there. She trains in a lot of arts. What weapons does she do? How old is she again I dont think you answered.
Does her wreslter boyfriend do pro wrestling which is fake wrestling? Or is he an olympic wreslter like greco romen or whatever or free style?

[fightgrrl]

I am blushing from all the stuff Jeff said!:embarrass


:cry: no kickboxing this summer

[tkdcanada]

hardcore fighter,

Speaking of egos.......

I said nothing out of line, just my opinion, so if you can't handle it, too bad. This is a discussion forum and people are entitled to discuss and voice their opinions as long as they're respectful, which I was. If I don't agree, I will say so, and did. Period. If you think that was going crazy, then you have no idea what a discussion is all about. How many good martial artists I know and how many older people are in my class is pointless because I think we define a good martial artist in a very different way. It's all about attitude. If you can't practice your art with the proper spirit and attitude, then you aren't a good martial artist, no matter how well you spar or how tough you are. If the ego gets in the way, then there's a problem. Besides, it has nothing to do with whether you type properly, nor does it have to do with political correctness. If you make a statement using ALWAYS or MOST, make sure you can back it up - otherwise you're just saying stuff that doesn't even make sense.

[Jeff Burger]

Fightgrrl and bruises

She is in a store...wearing short sleeves and shorts.
She has ALOT of bruises.
A man is following her around the store...he he thinks he has her alone when he says..."you dont have to live like that".

My reply...(add psycho face) 'YEAH she does".

:devil:

Jeff

[Jason H]

Andrew, I'm with Michleine on this one. She hasn't said anything inflamitory or even close to "crazy", she was stating her opinions. You were the one to get upset over the whole thing.

BTW
"And most older guys no matter how good they are will have an ego if a kid gets a good punch or a kick in. It is just the truth and I know it from all of my own personal experiences in martial arts."

I still don't think you have a valid point in your statement. You've been training for eight years? Thats excellent! I commend you for your perserverence. However, your realm of experience is limited, I believe, to only one art, and one school. You haven't the varied experience or time in with that many different people in that many different schools or styles to state "most older guys" about anything. Your statement would have been better put if you had said "most of the older guys at my school...."

My $.02

[tkdcanada]

Thank you, Jason for backing me up. :)

[Hardcore Fighter]

I have not been limitted to just one school. I have been to others. I started at one for about 6 years and now im at a totally different school in a different state now and been here for about 2 years. I have also checked out this other karate club. And the same thing. Most of the older guys are slower and not as fast or as powerful.
Its just most guys started late in life. There are some older guys who are really tough because they have trained since they were kids. And some get into accidents or get sick or whatever and cant fight as good anymore.
Who really cares anyway this is so stupid.

Now in Jeffs school the educated older guy has an ego because he probably is used to being thought of as really high up and respected because of his position and money. Also he is older. Now when some 20 something kid gets a good hit the guy who has this ego problem is gunna go crazy and thats what happened. This happens all the time.


Now that fight grrl sounds crazy and thats pretty funny about the guy at the store saying that to her when she was alone. haha. How old is she? Like in her 20's or what?

[Jeff Burger]

She is 38 going on 20....she doesnt look nearly her age...she gets IDed all the time...even for scratch tickets and you only have to be 18.

The ego and age can only be a generalization at best.
I would hope that people mature with age.
Either way it is something he needs to deal with om a personal level so the "do" aspects fits in here too.
I will however keep him in a safe environment until Im convinced that is accomplished.
It just feels strange guiding and elder in maturity...i would have hoped I could have learned some of that from him.

Egos for the young.
When I turned 18 I tried full contact. I was willing to fight with anybody so i thought that made me tuff...(it made me stupid).

I remember fighting a man age 36 (my age now) when I was 19 and thinking he was too old for this. I even made comments to my corner about safer ways to deal with a midlife crisis and retiring this old fart tonight.
I treated him a bit disrespectfully. He was winning by points but threw in the towel...I refused to shake his hand because of it.
I felt he didnt come to fight with the right commitment, I came in there willing to die.

I got kicked out of my school for awhile because of that.
I also had to apologize to him and his corner face to face (I remember that bus ride) as well as apologize to the promoters.
Looking back I think the promoters should have punished me as well.
One coach threatened to throw in my towel regardless of how well I was doing. I feared that more than anything else but it didnt happen.

Self proclaimed honor is arrogance...it was also bad sportsmanship.


Jeff

[Jason H]

I rememer being that young once too.... oy am I glad that's over with.

Again, Andrew, your coments on age can be generalizations at best, what Jeff said. We all have our opinions and should voice them that way, instead of making broad generalizations, agreed?

[Hardcore Fighter]

Man that is crazy. I think a lot of people have those bad memories to look upon and probably makes you feel ashamed and embarrassed. I know i once was a blue belt and my instructor made me fight in the black belt division in TKD sparring and I beat this brown belt who was taller then me because I was going crazy. Then I fuaght a black belt kid and I was going insane on him and trying to hurt him and stuff, but he won by points but in reality I beat him up. I was kind of disrespectful. I always look upon that time and feel ashamed and embarrassed. I never want to act like an ******* again.
But wow you were really mean to that 36 year old!

Thats cool about fightgrrl. Does her boyfriend do olympic wrestling or fake pro wrestling?

How many fights has she been in? Any street fights?

What kind of martial art do you teach and what ranks do you hold in each one?

[tkdcanada]

Hardcore, you should really go into psychology. You truly do have a gift.

[Jason H]

Michleine, be nice.....

[Jeff Burger]

Her boyfriend wrestled in high school and in college.

I teach Karate, Wushu, Kick Boxing, Grappling, various japanese and Chinese weapons forms, stick and knife fighting (FMA).

I have done various styles.
Japanese
Karate - Kyokushinkai and later break offs...Ashihara, Enshin.
Shukokai which was a combo of Shotkan and Goju Ryu which later broke off to Tadashii Do ( we were doing Judo and Ju Jitsu at the school and that didnt go over well politically)
Judo and Hakkano Ryu Ju Jitsu.
Weapons...bo, sai, tonfa, kama, single and double nunchaku.

Chinese
Nam Kune Bok Tui (southern fist nothern leg) (its a mix of styles)
Also
Chang Chuan, Nan Chuan, Wing Chun, Mantis, Tam Tui, Tai Chi.
Weapons staff, spear, straight sword, broadsword, flute, fan, horse bench, whip chain, sword and shield, rope dart, Pudau

Also do Muay Thai, Kali, JKD. boxing and Sambo.

Bits and pieces of other arts from trading with people or seminars.

What I teach (classes offered)
Karate - basically Kyokushin but I dont do their kata.
Wushu - primarily a forms class
Japanese weapons
Chinese weapons
Grappling - non style specific...do what you can
Kick Boxing - non style specific...do what you can
Tai Chi
Other topics we do in Phases. Phases are once a week and are on topics we dont have regualr classes for such as Kali stick, knife and hand or a a weapon form or an extra class for whatever competition we are preparing for.

Rank...not worried about it. I havent been promoted in Karate in 16 years. Im no longer connected to that school other than friendship. My highest rank was 2nd degree black belt.
I got my black belt in Hakkano Ryu but I feel it was somewhat honorary.
Im certified from a school in China to teach the above mentioned Chinese arts (excpet Wing Chun).
And certified in Thailand by the World Muay Thai Council for Muay Thai.

I have made 6 trips to China, 2 to Japan, 1 to Phillipines and 1 to Thailand.
No ranks in boxing, Kali, Sambo, JKD....the coaches just were not into that...gladly.

I also really dont really favor style....you can make stuff work or you cant and almost everybody has something to offer.

BTW...play nice.

Jeff

[tkdcanada]

Sorry, Jason.... I couldn't resist a little tongue in cheek! :o

[Hardcore Fighter]

Jeff man that is really awsome. I would like to go to your school and train if I am ever around. You seem like a cool guy if you know a lot of that stuff.

How can you really master any one style if you practice so many at the same time? Or do you just take some applications from each art and put it all together?

I would really like to travel to asia and train.

So if your a student of your school do you treach them all of that? Do they get every single class for the price of a monthly fee? Like one class is all about kicking and punching and another about throwing and joint locks and another about ground fighting and then weapons classes? That kicks man. Do you train some serious combatants?
Do most of your students train hard and get to be awsome fighters with good ability?

I really want to practice stick fighting and staff or pole fighting and also just total combat techniques.

Do you have ranks in your school or do you just have everyone equal and stuff?


My TKD school is great. It is one of the best ones I have been too. But there are so many people in the school I feel who slow me down and also slow others down because they dont want ti train hard and they slow up classes and people dont use common sense. But I have heard the training is going to get more intense really soon and we are gradually stepping into it. I also teach some classes every so often when they need someone to. And when I teach the classes and make everyone train in real fighting and not sport stuff and I make the kicking drills intense and I throw in hand work and elbows and knees for drills. and I talk about certain areas to hit and things and I try to make people good and I spend lots of times correcting their form because they are so sloppy. I dont know if people like my classes very much. They are kind of lazy people and dont seem to take the martial aspect seriously.

[Jeff Burger]

"How can you really master any one style if you practice so many at the same time? "

First I dont like the term master...and would never refer to myself as one.
To me its only a respect term for the old man of the style.
There is a teacher in China I call master...he is 85 now and still practices everyday (he taught me a whipchain move 3 years ago I still can not do to this day).
True if I focused on one style Id be better at that one thing.
My main thing is Kick Boxing and grappling...to me thats what those styles come down to.

$tudent$...
Student payment varies. Our kids program K.I.C.K. (Karate Inspires City Kids) is a non profit charitable organization.
Some kids get full scholorships some get partial. None pay for tournaments, promotions, belts diplomas...sometimes even free uniforms.
Adults is different no scholarships available for them.
Pricess vary to have many classes you sign up for.
Unlimited classes is $75 a month...thats over 25 classes a week (no one does them all but me). And adult class are 1 1/2 or 2 hours long.

Kids go by a ranking system. Adults who compete get promoted based on competition other than that we dont really do rank for adult. (beginner, intermediate, advanced, black.
I do level 1,2,3 student and level 1,2,3 instructor.

I dont do alot of forms per style...I dont practice alot of forms myself.
We have 3 Karate forms (the 3rd is the 2nd with 1 extra line).
1 bo, 1 sai, 1 tonfa, 2 nunchaku (1 single 1 double), 1 kama.
Wushu we have a very short Chang Chuan form that everyone learns and 1 long Chang Chuan, 1 Nan Chuan, 1 Mantis, 1 Nam Kune Bok Tui.
1 for staff, spear, straightsword, broadsword, fan, flute, whip chain, rope dart, horse bench, sword and shield.
Tai Chi 24, 42, sword and fan.

I dont even practice them enough to keep them in memory.
I have taught students a weapon form and then a year or so later Id ask..."what comes after this". I just dont feel forms are very important. I believe in the benefits of competition and I like having them for demos. Being a mixed school we can show alot fo different stuff at demos.
When I learn a form Ill video tape myself doing it in case I forget it.
I only keep a few personal forms sharp.
If a student or group is interested in learning a form Ill sharpen it up for a month or so and teach it to them.

I dont let my students learn too many forms. They can learn 1 hand and 1 weapon per year. If they are doing Karate and Wushu they can learn 2 hand 2 weapon per year but no learning 2 at the same time.

Also for Wushu I go by a competition based ranking system...even for kids.

Muay Thai is the skeleton of our Kick Boxing and Judo the skeleton of our grappling. From those bases we will go to other tactics from whatever style either as they come up or on the progression.
I try not to get into all the politics, ritual, hiearchy and blablabla.
Adult classes run more like a gym mentality than a traditional school. Youth programs follow the more old school approach.
I dont have seperate classes for youth and adult for Karate, Wushu...you either want to do the class or you dont...everybody learns the same stuff.

All that may seem like a *******ization as far as style goes.
But I dont care about style. The style should serve you....too many schools feel like cults.
My students have done extremely well in competition (90% or better). I dont hold students back to win trophies, in fact if a student is performing well at tournaments I have on a couple occassions awarded students honorary rank based on competition.

If your interested in going to China or Thailand let me know I can help and my help is free.

Jeff

[Hardcore Fighter]

Well thats cool. So you are not into any affiliation or world federations so you just do your own thing.

Do most of your kids become awsome fighters?

How do you fight with a flute?

For me I am in Taekwondo and I want to stick with TKD and move up the ranks and all that when I deserve them. But I want to learn other styles of martial arts and apply them to my TKD so I can be more well rounded. I am really interested in sticks and staffs and things you would most likely find around the ground or streets or in a building. And I like hand to hand combat and knives. I want to learn that because I feel like those are the situations I will most likely encounter in the real world. but it would rockt o learn how to use swords too and other weapons. I can do a single nunchuku all right.

Anyway I am intereted in going to Korea and The Philippines one day. but not anytime soon.

But your school sounds pretty cool and if one day I am every in your area I will check it out and maybe sign up for a few classes for my stay there just for fun.

[Jeff Burger]

One of the schools in China is very large...they have olympic level TKD players there. Last time I was there 2 coaches from Korea.

They also had Muay Thai and a coach from Thailand.

"How do you fight with a flute? "

I had opportunity to learn flute along time ago...but I wasnt interested.
The flute is solid metal...and legal to carry as it actually works as a flute...it is very solid.
Its basically a metal club.
I do some Kali and we were doing some stick fighitng at a Kung Fu school and one of teachers ahd asked me about doing flute.
So I learned a form and its applications...it did add a few techniques to my stick fighting.

The flute is a bit shorter than a Kali stick and that length feels quite natural in the hand...like a hammer.

JMB

[Hardcore Fighter]

Oh ok thats cool. In the form do you put the flute up to your mouth and play anything?

What kinds of objects are leagel in the USA to carry around? Is there anyway to get around the law with nunchukus or any sticks?

[Jeff Burger]

If there was a part in the form where I played it I probably wouldnt even have tried to learn it.

There are many weapons that could be carried...a belt can be a good weapon, the fan, scissors...

I used to carry a weapon ALL THE TIME. Now I never carry a weapon. I do practice with pen, belt...
I prefer to make use of what is at hand than to take a cahnce at getting arrested for a weapon I may never need.
Also I felt I felt I was getting lazy, over confident with my weapons.
Another weapon question is....the person may not leave a situation because they have the weapon / confidence.

Play around with everday objects as weapons...pens, scissors ( I can play darts with scissors), nails, kyptonite lock, belt, chains, cords, books....there is nothing that couldnt be used as a weapon....NOTHING. If its too big to use in the hands maybe they could be slammed into it...if its seems to light / ineffective it could be a projectile...even if only for distraction (gum wrapper).

Kind of along the same line try fighting in different areas...stairs (hi and low) hallways, doorways, car, pool....

JMB

[Hardcore Fighter]

Ya. Thats some good ideas. I do have a belt I wear with studs all over it I could use. I used to wear a big chain around my neck but not naymore and I used to skateboard and a skateboard can be a weapon. But I think the law is stupid how it wont let you carry sticks that are 4 feet and under long or something like that. But you can carry a big huge pole or a bat. The law is dumb like that.

Can you can a concealed weapons permit to carry nunchukus or knives or anything besides guns?

[Jeff Burger]

Im not sure about laws or permits.

But lets bring the topic back to egos.

Im a moderator...I should be hijacking threads (slaps self on wrist).


JMB

[bloodymonkey117]

hm... i remember one time during class, everyone was doing our first form, and one of mi sifu's old students (Agent Orange) came in to knock on the wooden dummy. My school is pretty small, and there's not a whole lot of room, and class was kinda packed that day... so it was slightly inconsiderate... Another of sifu's students (a girl we'll call Madam Biloba, also his junior) told him to move and do the form. They began arguing, and at one point Agent Orange put up his finger to emphasize a point. Madam Biloba grabbed his finger, and Orange tried to shake it off. I guess she saw this as some sort of attack and pao ji'd him in the eye (It's a move sifu says is LAST RESORT ONLY). He kinda fell back into a daze before he was going to rush her. Luckily another student we'll call Humongor (A seven foot giant of an alaskan fisherman) pushed 'em apart and sifu made Biloba leave, and yelled at Orange before making him train til the next day, quite literally. Orange called crying and apologizing, and Humongor got pissed for the next few days. Pissed me off too, 'cause i hate to see my sifu upset, and he very rarely is.

Anyways... other then that, i was privy to a little spat between Alex Gong (my old Muay Thai instructor) and a guy named Johhny Warren (sp) Kinda funny 'cause they'd send challenges to eachother and never actually fought... stupid machismo stuff.

!!!

-Gabe

[Erik]

One more idea - tell the guy that you two ought to ease into it and find the right groove. That starts it slower and makes it clear that you're not competing (yet) and just figuring out a new sparring partner.

This seems to work with new guys coming to grappling.

Just a thought.

[jakmak52]

I find this typical of most challenges facing seasoned or veteran (Master's??) MA's who come upon aggressive, egomaniacal or not, fighters. When sparring an unfamiliar opponent, I assess his/hers comfort level and adjust to it. I am faced sometimes with overzealuos opponents when competing in the NASKA circuit thoughout the USA, which provides an opportunity to test my skills and techniques as well. Water seeks it own level. A PROFESSIONAL martial artist is aware of his opponents fight style and answers accordingly. I have been disqualified for providing continuous contact actions in a point contact division because I felt my opponent was exceeding the point rules, if you want to rock and roll, let's go. I risk losing points, but what the heck, I'll make them up in the kata/forms division :D I'm an "old dude" who loses control sometimes, "my bad", but remember, youth and energy are no match for wisdom and treachery :up: Hardcore Fighter, you did the right thing, I wouldn't have :up:

[jakmak52]

Anyway it really anoys me and he needs to be humbled so I always fight him after class and stuff. Sometimes we street fight. Anyway he wanted to fight really bad again and he thought he was all bad. So im like okay 1 minute then I really have got to go. So we start and im just casually sparring and then like 5 seconds into it he smacks me in the face with a kick. We dont wear gear. So I was pissed and then I went really hard on him and trapped him in the corner and kept kicking him over and over and he had no where to run. Then I backed off to let him loose and he runs away and I just chase him and keep kicking and he throws a few kicks and I block and evade them and counter and he is like "Is it 1 minute yet!!" I said no we are going 5 mins now! And we fuaght some more but I got him good.
I think people like that need to know they are not as good as higher ranks and they need to be humble and have respect and not be ****y. And i think to do that you need to probably kick some of their ***'s everyonce in awhile to show them who is boss.
But never lose controle and always know what you are doing and afterwards be respectful and kind. If they dont learn it soon thent hey probably never will.

And you're a 2nd degree Black Belt? :confused: I could easily have confused you with a common street thug :D