???

[Jeff Burger]

Here is a question that came up yesterday.

Your a martial artist, your boarding a plane.
Would you mention to a flight attendant that your a martial artist and if there is someone they are concenred about feel free to sit you behind or near them?

Im not one for martial artist or anybody putting themselves into a vigilante situation.
But once your up in the air its just the crew the passengers and you.

If something does happen I hope I would have the opportunity and mindset to act.

Your thoughts...

Jeff

[lonewolf12563]

Absolutly not. How many yahoos do you know who clam to be martial artist and who are not. See the problem. I am in the military. I don't let any one know and my ID is in my checked on baggage. If I have to act, Iwill.No one needs to know who I am.
If something does go down do not react right away. There are ususally more than one terrorist. Check out the situation first. The flight may have an air martial. You don't want to get shot by mistake.
Act on immediate threats ie someone lighting a shoe bomb ect. Be carefull about Identifiying yourself as a martial artist because quite frankly we dont give a ****. Just ask the air marshal or cop if you can be of assistance. Hey I'm Joe Smoe can I help.
Remember you are not a cop so don't try to be one. Being a martial artist does not give you any more powers ( lawful) than normal citizens. Your intentions are good but just enjoy the flight like everyone else. If the stewartist thinks that they may have a problem belive me it is or will be already taken care of.
The 911 situation was very unique. No one thought they would crash plains into buildings. Also carving up a stewartist in the back to get the pilot out of the flight deck will not work now.
Pilots are now being armed, stewartist are now being trained and the pilots better not open that flight deck!
Of course there are what if's. Just play it cool, use common sense,and help if needed. Ed

[riku]

I wouldn't tell my MA -background to busdrivers or bouncers, either. So why to tell in plane?

With respect,
Riku Ylönen

[Sgathak]

While I am not an instructor, nor do I play one on TV, I have been involved with training several flight crews from numerous airlines as an assistant.

Many of the flight attendants have asked us, after the seminar, to identify ourselves... Granted, this was soon after 9-11 and their interest may have long since passed... but at one time they were very interested to know who was trained.

[KenpoKev]

I always hand a business card to a flight attendant and simply let them know I'm available if they need anything. I have always been thanked and have had a chat with a couple "attendants" who were likely on the Govt. payroll, who have all said they sincerely appreciated the offer.

On the other hand, since being airborne on 9-11, I have generally avoided recreational flying since. I'd rather drive when I can.

[Mandeigh Wells]

nice bike!:cool:

[Jeff Burger]

Sweet bike

I have not avoided flying since 9-11 if anything I have made an attempt to fly more.
If only to do my part in not letting them hurt the economy via fear.

Actually Im kind of surprised there havent been more terrorist attacks within the states.
Even with new measures of security there lots that could be done.

Hope none of them happen.

If I had a bike like that though Id ride it wherever I could.

Jeff

[Waspe]

I am only a Kid, but even if I was an adult, and didn't have a law enforcement career. I wouldn't let the flight attendants know. I would simply take a seat. If anything were to occur however, I would jump up and do my part. As i walk around and see different people.. I kindof in my mind plan how I would if need be attack that person. So when something does go wrong..I am ready.. to an extent.
If I were a law enforcement where it be a Local police, state police, FBI agent, U.S Marshal, or some government agency that tests security.. I would let the Attendants know.. unless I was undercover or something.

[johenora]

It may appear on first blush to say you are a martial artist,but it could be unwise to do this on an aircraft today.Also the airlines now have security experts aboard. And they probably do not want volunteers since they are better trained for terrorist problems on the plane.Security experts do not tell you they are secuity experts because it lifts their identity and cover. Further it might be dangerous for them, the plane, and the occupants.
It seems probably better to sit and follow one's sense.

[Steven Malanoski]

Be very carefull what you ask for..............

You just may get it.

While your intent is appreciated, it is not realistic.

Of course in a "Lets roll," situation, it is admirable and dutyfull to jump in, but in a case where your dealing with a suicide mission martyr, it is advisable to let the big dogs handle it. Lend a hand if needed and pray that it is never needed.

And dont be surprised if when you announce yourself as a walking death machine, that YOU become the one scrutinized by the Sky Marshall......

[BUDO BULLDOG]

Hello Steven Malanoski,

I agree with you.

The desire to be of service is truly admirable, but realty states to take a different coarse of action.

If you would announce to the flight attendant, your MA background, yes you suddenly do become a target and rightfully so. The Air Marshal is there to ensure a safe flight. He or she must control all variables and will rank these variables via their immediate threat level. Even when our intentions are sincere, we become one of those threat variables during that flight.

This is a sad situation –but- it speaks volumes of how the MA community is viewed and valued by the public.

Mr. Malanoski, may I ask you how is Master Urban doing?

I spent many years in South New Jersey and I have the greatest respect for Master Urban and your organization.

Ed Barton

[mantisman]

I beleive that it is better to let your experience be a rude shock if and when needed.The sky marshals have a job to do so let them do it.The may ask for assistance so help when thay ask for it.The last thing that they want is more people in front of their tagets.I think a martial artist should be modest.I would think that this would extend to this situation to.If you anounce yourself a martial artist the terorist will know who they have to look out for.


Jay Kingsun

[Steven Malanoski]

Funny, I was reading some of my emails to him over the phone, when I saw the notice of your reply.

Wait a sec. and I'll ask him.



He said "Better than ever, thank you."



Incidentally, South Jersey is where the Sky Marshal Academy is "Atlantic City area." The CQC is taught by my old Marine Corps pal Cardo Urso, who also originated the MCMAP "Marine Corps Martial Arts Program."

Gotta go.

Oss!

[BUDO BULLDOG]

Hello Steve,

I am happy to hear that Master Urban is doing well.

South Jersey, I do get home sick at times.

Ed

[De_Franza]

I beleive that it is better to let your experience be a rude shock if and when needed.The sky marshals have a job to do so let them do it.The may ask for assistance so help when thay ask for it.The last thing that they want is more people in front of their tagets.I think a martial artist should be modest.I would think that this would extend to this situation to.If you anounce yourself a martial artist the terorist will know who they have to look out for.

Jay Kingsun

I think this is the most prudent and otherwise best way to go.

[Dale Seago]

Would you mention to a flight attendant that your a martial artist and if there is someone they are concenred about feel free to sit you behind or near them?
More often than not, I don't.

On the rare occasions when I -- quietly and unobtrusively -- do mention my availability, I don't verbalize my background. I just tell them that if they have any problems, I'm in seat X, and I hand them both of my business cards:

1) The one identifying me as a Bujinkan instructor, which has the Warrior Creed (http://www.bujinkansf.org/creed/) printed on it; and

2) My card from the company I work for, identifying me as a Senior Manager with The Steele Foundation. (http://www.steelefoundation.com)

Never a problem. Not sure whether I'd do it right now, with all the publicity (http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&edition=us&q=steele+foundation) the company's gotten in the news just lately. . . :wink2:

[mantisman]

What is the steele foundation and why the bad publicity?


Jay Kingsun
Australia

[Dale Seago]

What is the steele foundation and why the bad publicity?


Jay Kingsun
Australia
Not all bad -- just that we normally manage to keep a much lower profile. Click on the linked parts of my post above.

[Jay Bell]

Would you mention to a flight attendant that your a martial artist and if there is someone they are concenred about feel free to sit you behind or near them?

Absolutely not. What does being a martial artist mean? Shave away all of the hype and grandeur and it boils down to a person who attends a martial arts class. It gives the impression (as false as it may be) that you have been well trained in dealing with real, raw violence...and that if that violence occured while on an airplane, you would be able to control it.

Keeping said information to yourself is much more effective in my opinion. Having a nice, calm flight and keeping your awareness alive is most important in my opinion. (awareness...no sketchiness)

[Cliff Hargrave]

I am afraid to fly....

[thebigj8]

Would one also tell a bouncer at a bar of his or her training? What about the kid with the flashlight at the movie theater?

"Hey partner, just wanted you to know I'm a highly-trained martial artist. So, if those kids down in the front give you any grief, just come and let me know."

If you do tell the flying waiters of your training, who else do you tell? Where does it end?

[John J Hodges]

I think it is important to simply pass them a note or card. Always give them your name, make eye contact, smile, and be polite. I'm sure that most flight attendants will appreciate the fact that at least they have a passenger who is paying attention.

One of my students is an Air Marshal. I will speak with him about this at class tomorrow.

[Ewok85]

On my last few flights I sat in the aisle for ease of toilet access and was rather intoxicated by landing.

If you are a cop or a soldier and you got on a plane would you say anything? No, as people have said, and I dont think its any different here.

[John J Hodges]

I did not say tell them you are a martial artist. Most people will just blow you off. Saying, "I'm in seat X if you need any assistance with X," would be more appropriate. It's all in how it's presented. Even if they disregard what you tell them, if something happens I bet they remember you.

[Tre]

My thing is that they look at the my name on my bag or ticket, and then glance at my face and think I am a terrorist.

There is truely nothing weirder than getting frisked 3 times in one airport, then being continously watched by the flight crew. I was probably sat next the air marshall as well.

[David Craik]

Nope. For one thing, in my experience many people who announce themselves as 'martial artists' unbidden tend to be goofs. And for another, it's kind of a meaningless statement because the number of 'martial artists' that couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag are legion.

[black-gi]

I would keep it to my self but even if it is rowdy or someone is being threatend and it is worrying people I will say something and let them know if you mess (for lack of a better word) with the bull you are going to get the horn! not that I would jump in all of a sudden but people do get aggresive and ugly with bevvies in them.




Jason Bryant

[DragonMind]

On the other hand, since being airborne on 9-11, I have generally avoided recreational flying since. I'd rather drive when I can.
Sweet scoot! You hang out at MTF?

[wab25]

I think many of us might be over estimating our abilities here. Just because we go to class a few times a week and practice kata or sparring, how does that help us identify the terrorist by his facial expression? Especially when you factor in that many people got up way too early to catch this flight or the one before and had a long layover, trying to sleep in plastic chairs at the terminal.... I don't really think our dojo's teach us what to look for, in this case.

Do we really think that because we can disarm the guy at the dojo, with the plastic gun, that we could take it away from a terrorist, who has 200 more hostages? The first thing we are taught in a gun disarm is to get out of the way, so the first shot misses and control the gun. That first shot just hit another passenger or punched a hole in the plane. ( very bad thing at 10,000 feet and 500 mph )

How many of us really practice in cramped spaces, like on and airliner? Heck, how many of us have really been in that kind of fight? Against someone who wants to kill you, and has been trained to kill you and most likely has experience doing it to other people before?

The best thing we can do is follow the Boy Scouts. Be prepared. ( and learn a little first aid ) Let the trained professionals do their job, without having to worry about some civilian in the way. The Air Marshals, pilots, and attendants are all trained for this now. Let them have the first crack at it, its what they are paid and prepared to do. Really, if a SWAT team is setting up at the house down the block, do you really go up and announce that you are a martial artist and there to help?

Be prepared. Stay out of the way, you just may make things worse, especially if you have not been trained for THIS situation. If you are asked to help, then help. If the air marshal is taken out or in trouble, go for it. If they are going to crash the plane or blow it up, go for it. ( and use a little surprise to your avantage ) But also remember, you don't know who the Air Marshal is, and neither do the terrorists, till he shows himself. Maybe he is waiting to identify all the terrorists first. Maybe he is setting something up. Maybe he has a plan ( with the gun and training to implement it ) If you just pop up and get shot, it ruins his whole plan, and your day.

[Erik]

Would one also tell a bouncer at a bar of his or her training?
"Hey partner, just wanted you to know I'm a highly-trained martial artist. So, if those kids down in the front give you any grief, just come and let me know."

Occasionally guys would say this kind of thing to us at the door when I was a bouncer. We'd usually laugh politely and when the chump left, chuckle disrespectfully among ourselves, thinking "another cheesedick."

If such guys got too cocky, hot-headed, caused problems, and if they looked like they needed to be cut down to size, they'd get a double beating (plus extra humiliation) in back. Usually they'd be taken down, hit a few times, and then held in a cruel knee-mount by someone who would have a conversation about the weather or girls with his laughing partner in an effort to show the guy that he was not even worth our undivided attention.

Had they been more jovial, warm, or come accross as nice (but drunk) guys, they would have been treated far better and not have been on the receiving end of a ground-and-pound.

[lazancot]

All of these replies seem to only be concerned with the american system of air travel. What if you are in europe and some one hijacks the plane and there are no marshals to help or watch? It is true that if you approach most people in most environments and tell them you are a MA they will tend to think that you are an arrogant fool (unless they themselves are interested in MA). Softly aproach. I have often been in bars when it is just me and some rowdy plebs out for trouble and just a single girl looking after the bar. All I ever do is say " if they give you too much hassle just give me a look and i'll give you a hand" (phone the police, eject them, call mates, anything to help) but i will not say "I am an MA, if you need them knocked sensless just shout".
So softly approach is good but if there is no direct threat then the element of suprise is paramount. Should the rest of the world get more marshals?

[Wulf]

how could you fight against a plane taking a nose dive anyway? due to a personal experience i had around 4 years ago, i'm kinda terrified of planes now...

[shinansharpe]

Here is a question that came up yesterday.

Your a martial artist, your boarding a plane.
Would you mention to a flight attendant that your a martial artist and if there is someone they are concenred about feel free to sit you behind or near them?

Im not one for martial artist or anybody putting themselves into a vigilante situation.
But once your up in the air its just the crew the passengers and you.

If something does happen I hope I would have the opportunity and mindset to act.

Your thoughts...

Jeff
:bow: I am a federal agent with 28 years experience and 48 years in Ju-Jutsu (21 of those years in Japan). The best thing for you to do is to keep quiet. If the flight attentent is worried about someone, a air-marshal is sure to be sitting behind of near them. If something does happen, the air-marshal will take care of it. You can watch for the second or third or fourth problem person (terrorist). If and only If you can succeed in helping, help. You are no good to anyone dead. Look at my page www.jiujitsujapones.com

[David Craik]

'Master of Masters' John Sharpe, kindly sign your posts with your full name, as per forum rules. It is easiest to do this by setting up a signature bearing your name in the Control Panel.

[Kaoru]

:bow: I am a federal agent with 28 years experience and 48 years in Ju-Jutsu (21 of those years in Japan). The best thing for you to do is to keep quiet. If the flight attentent is worried about someone, a air-marshal is sure to be sitting behind of near them. If something does happen, the air-marshal will take care of it. You can watch for the second or third or fourth problem person (terrorist). If and only If you can succeed in helping, help. You are no good to anyone dead. Look at my page www.jiujitsujapones.com

If you are a federal agent, what are you doing in Mexico? You brag too much.

Air marshals are not on every flight, and it depends on the country as to whether or not they will have such personnel. My father is a pilot so I would know.

[stella fuentes]

"All of these replies seem to only be concerned with the american system of air travel. What if you are in europe and some one hijacks the plane and there are no marshals to help or watch"

in other countries, they got games on board flights... :D i know it sounds crazy..they got bring me games, or guessing games...

a few of years ago, some crazy person hijacked a local flight so he could test his homemade parachute...he jumped out and splattered himself in a fishpond.

as for security, the usual thing i guess.
and no, i would not announce my presence/self as so and so...i'll try to just blend in...

[scruffysmileyface]

Well, as someone who travels alot in foreign countries on US military credentials, I can tell you, it's far better to keep a low profile when possible. There's nothing quite as uncomfortable as having Greek police follow you around an airport until fellow passengers actually come up to you and ask why you're a security threat.

Just stay quiet, read a book or something, but remain vigilant. If something does happen on a flight, 99 out of 100 times it's not terrorism, just some drunk getting rowdy. And usually there is someone available whose job is to handle the situation.

I can just see some flight attendant handing the captain your card. "The passenger in seat 32B wants me to give you this. He says he's some kind of artist or something..." :D

~scruff

[Patrick Hayes]

"Speak softly, but carry a big stick." -- Teddy Roosevelt

Words to live by.

BTW, isn't there some sort of legal issue when people with H2H/MA training get involved in violent situations, especilly if someone gets injured? Like in the beginning of "ConAir" where Nicolas Cage's character gets a crapload of prison time for killing a guy, even though it was in self-defense?

[DragonMind]

"BTW, isn't there some sort of legal issue when people with H2H/MA training get involved in violent situations, especilly if someone gets injured? Like in the beginning of "ConAir" where Nicolas Cage's character gets a crapload of prison time for killing a guy, even though it was in self-defense?
It's called reasonable level of force and it applies to everyone, not just martial artists.

[Patrick Hayes]

I seem to recall in that movie (and if my faulty recollection of a fictional story I saw several years ago isn't proof enough, then I don't know what is! :t2: ) that the judge who passed sentence on Nicolas Cage made some mention of his combat training and basically said that since his body has been trained as a weapon, any use of force on his part could be considered assault with a deadly weapon, hence the stiffer penalty. I'm a legal dunce, so I have no idea if this is true or not. Anyone know?

[DragonMind]

I seem to recall in that movie (and if my faulty recollection of a fictional story I saw several years ago isn't proof enough, then I don't know what is! :t2: ) that the judge who passed sentence on Nicolas Cage made some mention of his combat training and basically said that since his body has been trained as a weapon, any use of force on his part could be considered assault with a deadly weapon, hence the stiffer penalty. I'm a legal dunce, so I have no idea if this is true or not. Anyone know?
The law itself doesn't make any distinction. That story line has been around since at least the 60s; used to be you must register your hands with the police as a deadly weapon. :laugh:

What a smart prosecutor would do is try to convince the judge/jury that because of your training you should be held to a higher standard of restraint, much like a LEO. The law (and it varies by state) is usually phrased based on a reasonable person standard, i.e what would a reasonable person do under these circumstances. In all cases, the prevailing issue is the reasonableness of the level of force used. That level of force is determined by the level of threat, e.g. you can't use deadly force because someone took a swing at you.

[topgun3442]

If you jump up and try to get involved the air marshals are going to treat you the same as a terrorist until you can prove otherwise and that's a quick way to catch a bullet! If there are no air marshals on the plane, which would be rare depending on the size of the plane and this day and time, then you still don't need to jump into anything until everyone is revealed. No need to jump someone and then get shot by another one that was still hidden.

[wab25]

I just bought a revolver. So, now I feel that I need to carry it with me, unconsealed of coarse, every time I go to the convenience store, just in case they get robbed while I am there. Since I bought a gun, I now have the personal responsibility of using it to protect the general public when ever I can.

As rediculous as this sounds, its the same as replacing the word gun, with martial arts training, in the above stated paragraph. I bought some martial arts lessons from the ymca or local dojo, and now I have the personal responsibility to protect the general public.... It doesn't work that way. First and foremost, taking martials arts does not give you any authority to be a vigilante.

Should you jump in and help someone out? Yes. Should you go around announcing who and what you are, trying to take charge of every situation, and save the poor LEO from the bad guys? No. Oh and your first step in helping out someone on the street should be to call the police right away, before you both get incapacitated.

[Grei]

It seems to me that people are misinterpreting the meaning of vigilante. A vigilante is someone who takes the law into his own hands. Kills a man as punishment for a crime, for instance, outside of the law.

It should be perfectly legal to detain an offender untill the proper authorities arrive. Anyone heard of citizen's arrest?