something to think about

[Cliff Hargrave]

Hi all. I have lurking around here for awhile but I just decided to get involved.

One of John Bennet's posts mentioning the different spellings of jiujitsu, jujitsu, jujutsu got me to thinking.

In my years in the arts (24+) I noticed that lineage is probably lied about more than one's weight or age. My first instructor, while very talented and tough, told so many different stories over the years that it was silly.

Then as I met other jujutsuka over the years I found that their style backgrounds were just as cloudy. I read something by one martial arts writer that said "real" jujutsu in the USA was probably the rarest art. He said almost ALL jujutsu here was some combination of karate, aikido, judo, or judo goshin waza.

In my case, as I matured in the arts and grew older and more exposed to other things, I realized the style I trained in for years was just that, a "made-up" jujutsu. It was a combo of modified aikido, judo, and goshin waza. Now that didn't make it bad or ineffective. On the contrary, it saved my butt many times when the chips were down and I have been able to "hang" in any dojo I went to (except BJJ but that's another story).

So....why all the lies? Are many practitioners just not informed? Blindly following whatever their instructors say? Or just dishonest? Maybe a little of all three? Of course jujutsu isn't the only art suffering from this, but since it's not near as popular as Tae Kwon Do or Karate it is a little easier to "fake."

Does it matter and is this even worth discussing?

[Lawrence]

Hi there.

I must say you have jumped right onto one of my crusades (well, kind of). To cut it short (as I have just wiped about 30mins work typing out a response to this! :( ) I want to see the name of jujutsu given back to the koryu jujutsu and taken away from the modern goshin schools that call themselves jujutsu.

Are many practitioners just not informed? Blindly following whatever their instructors say? Or just dishonest? Maybe a little of all three?
Now this is difficult. I personally don't think that it has anything to do with dishonesty. But the other two options sound quite promising! :D Many people who are now teaching jujutsu are second or third generation of that particular local style. They have spent many years gaining and polishing their grade. For them, their teacher has taught them jujutsu so logically they must be teaching jujutsu.

But I do think that you missed one out: cowardice. If they are aware that they are acutually teaching a mish-mash of someother blokes favourate techniques from half a dozen styles and yet still insist on calling what they do jujutsu. It strikes me that they are afraid to admit the true fact that they don't know what they are teaching.

It may well be good, reliable, suitable and appropriate for todays streets, but it isn't jujutsu. Jujutsu is (obviously) a Japanese word that is situated in a very particular period in Japans history. Consiquently I would like to see the name of jujutsu only relating to the koryu jujutsu.

This is part of my crusade. I like yourself, fond out that the style of jujutsu I had been studying for just over four years at the time, was a made up mish-mash of techniques from other styles. Don't get me wrong. I loved the training, the people and it was effective, but it wasn't jujutsu.

Since then I have been encouraging some of these 'fakes and fonies' to change the name of what they do so as not to involve the world jujutsu. To lead the way I renamed what Iwas (and still am) teaching to be Tamanegi ryu. I emphasis that it is a new and very modern school. I don't make training be something it isn't. The only real difference between what I teach and other jujutsu instructors is that I also teach what I know of koryu jujutsu and explain what school it comes from and any other information I can find to give to my students. Most of my students have found their interest in the culture and history behind the Martial Arts fastenating. They are fully aware of what they are learning, yet they still come back! :D

My crusade is to encourage other jujutsuka to follow suit and change the name of what they do to be something more fitting, individual and personal to them. This way if their school had merrits they would be seen on their own and find success for their own art.

To date I have only convinced 12 or 13 instructors to follow suit. It is a slow, uphill struggle, but one I woudn't give up for the world!

Take care,

Lawrence Fisher.

[Jim]

I read your post earlier in the day and have given some thought before replying.

I believe that it just wasn't all that important 10, 20 30+ years ago. In layman's terms you were either doing Karate or Judo. (western) Boxing and wrestling weren't even considered to be martial arts. Even today I tend to tell people that I do Judo, een though I don't train for competition or even have an affiliation with a Japanese body.

I understand and agree with Lawrence's peev. I find myself stuck between a 'tradional' martial art with no traceable lineage through to Japan and teaching an eclectic mix of what I know of self defence and close quarter combatives. I do this with no disrespect or untoward intentions of passing myself off as something I'm not, just it's not all that important (to me).

Should someone enquire and genuinely want to know the full lineage or other aspects that don't have to do with combat, I'm happy to oblige. However, to get rid of all the terminology I use and etiquette as ties to an ancient system that I can't properly trace would be a loss.

[Jeff Burger]

On the spelling Jiu / Ji Jitsu / Jutsu

I heard Jiu meant Brazilian that that was their spelling.

I have a old book
The Science of Wrestling and The Art of Jiu Jitsu
Earle Liederman 1923

Isnt Brazilian Jiu Jitsu modified Judo?

Jeff

[lonewolf12563]

Jujutsu is the original spelling. The term was coined by Sekiguchi Ujimune Jushin and is from "Ju yoku sei go", softness controlls hardness well. Before that it was yawara.
Judo, the name,was not first used by Kano. It was used by several jujutsu schools before Kano came up with it. But still Judo in it's purest form is jujutsu.
Brazillian Jujutsu is not modified Judo. It is Jujutsu. In Brazil they just call it Jiu-jitsu. Yes they spell it different. Sort of the same way Americans did when it first hit our country in the 1700's. Brazillian Jiu-jitsu is a style or ryu, just like there are many styles in Japan. Did you know Kano did not include Ne-waza in his ciriculum untill several of his judoka were defeated in matches using Gracie type methods. Only then did Kano incorporate Ground fighting.
Don't think Judo is effective in combat, check out the last Pride!

The reason why some jujutsu can be discribed as judo,aikido and karate mix is because jujutsu is the mother of all those arts. But I agree that most american jujutsu is a watered down mix. But then again you have to call it jujutsu for it's intended pourpose of self-defense. You have to be the judge on wether the ryu is effective in combat. But that is nothing new to jujutsu. Same goes in Japan. Many styles,ryus. Which ones are the best? Ed

[Abbax8]

I study judo, which in itself is a combination of various ryus from JJ. Lineage, styles an such make for interesting reading or arguing, but after spending over 35 years in MA I realize that since most people have 1 head, 2 arms, 2 legs and everything else in basically the same place, there are only so many ways to hit, twist or throw another person. Some striking styles I have observed do really bad throwing techniques. And as a judo guy I admit my punching and kicking need a lot of work. But in a pinch they both work. My point is, I personally don't consider lineage a big deal. My instructors studied under a man who was tops in judo, Ishikawa. Their studying under him helped me somewhat, but not nearly as much as if I could have learned directly from him. Just my 2 cents.

Peace
Dennis

[DPM]

From the little studying of the subject that I have done, I have noticed that there are incorrect repuplications of documents. Probably due to a lack of understanding of the Japanese language.

For example, I've read statements by Okazaki where he uses the word "judo", and in later reprints it has been changed to "Judo".
The same w/ "jujutsu" reprinted as "jujitsu".

Which only adds to confusing some people as to how systems are interconnected or evolved.

Hi Jim. :)

[JitsuFool]

Unless you're using the Japanese kanji, surely arguing about the spelling of jj is about as productive as an American telling an Englishman that "colour" is spelled "color".

Back to Lawrence's point about the diversity of arts referred to as jiu jitsu (or however you prefer to spell it); I am told that as far as the Japanese are concerned, jiu jitsu basically means martial art. I get thyis info (not 1st hand) from people who have gone over, asked where the nearest jiu jitsu dojo is, to be asked, "Yes, which do you want to do? Judo, aikido, karate etc.." --anyone else found this?

Graham Cox

[Sgathak]

My crusade is to encourage other jujutsuka to follow suit and change the name of what they do to be something more fitting, individual and personal to them. This way if their school had merrits they would be seen on their own and find success for their own art.

This is one of those things that some people think is acceptable, and others will themselvs mount a crusade to stop, regardless of merits. "who do you think you are to make up your own style????" is a question, that when asked enough, can put schools out of business even before they open the doors.

Sometimes, using a slightly incorrect term is the only thing that lets a school build the base it needs to get on its feet.

[Hakko]

On the spelling Jiu / Ji Jitsu / Jutsu

I heard Jiu meant Brazilian that that was their spelling.

I have a old book
The Science of Wrestling and The Art of Jiu Jitsu
Earle Liederman 1923


I have seen books or ads going back to 1903 with the "jiu" spelling. It is not Brazillian or anything else. All this is is an attempt to render into western alphabet the actual sounds of the Japanese words. The spelling doesn't really mean a lot.

[Erik]

An engineer's take on this:
MMA & sport jiu jitsu are the best modern innovations since sliced bread.

Goal, constraints, and clear success conditions. Engineering formula.

Once a set of rules (constraints) have been established and a goal made clear, the only question that matters now is "will this technique/philosophy/idea/version of jiu jitsu solve the problem before me, that of submitting my opponent according to the rules of competition (or laws in your neighborhood or social rules, etc.)?"

Where it comes from is moot, even if it satisfies someone's personal curiosity about real or imagined history.

I think far too many people think that some sort of lineage implies that a system is established and soundly researched and developed. I think that's bunk because of the sheer volume of crap and nonsense in the MA world. And without passing regular testing, any design, be it a bridge, a school of thought, an algorithm (which MA is, in a way), or a fighting methodology, even the best become misunderstood, misused, and watererd down enough that even if they started of strong, they are no longer so.

If an idea is to last over time it must be able to stand upon its own feet. Remember in school how we were meant to learn about Socrates, Plato (a wrestler who would have done BJJ, I'm sure), and Aristotle? Did any of ask "who cares?" about the guys instead of just trying to grasp the ideas and see if they apply today?

Too often in MA mythology the logic is like this: this system was developed by so-and-so and is therefore authentic and good. Who is so-and-so and why is s/he so good? Because s/he invented this wonderful system. (But this system is wonderful because it's authentically from so-and-so, who is so great beacause he invented this magnificent system... lather, rinse, repeat).

Present-day public experimentation (MMA world) has put to rest much of this nonsense. If XYZ jiu jitsu school can consistantly win fights better than ABC kung fu school (preferably in sport than on the street for legal and moral reasons only) then it's simply more effective. Who the rumors and propoganda say invented it is not relevant.

That's my $0.02 coming from a test & development engineer, anyway.

Re: Judo & BJJ - One of Kano's students brought Kano Jiu Jitsu (or Judo, I think before being "Christened" Judo) to Brazil. BJJ evolved from experimentation and adaption from this sport and the techniques changed a bit over time as well as the rules. Judo in those days was a lot more like BJJ in that there was more ne waza, not the 20 seconds people get now in the Olympics.

I think it would help if people thought of BJJ as Judo ne waza refined and emphasized and BJJ competition like old Judo but without any ippon wins from takedown only.

Re: Spelling - Jiu vs. Ju are just two ways of trying to spell the same Japanese word. Some sounds are tough to capture with a different alphabet. I'm sure we sound as funny to them as they do trying to say the uniquely American "R" sound. For further understanding we would be better served asking a linguist instead of martial artists.

[Mekugi]

So....why all the lies? Are many practitioners just not informed? Blindly following whatever their instructors say? Or just dishonest? Maybe a little of all three? Of course jujutsu isn't the only art suffering from this, but since it's not near as popular as Tae Kwon Do or Karate it is a little easier to "fake."

Does it matter and is this even worth discussing?

Hmm. Individuals have various reasons for doing various things; this is of course the warp and woof of all human behavior. In general, I think that you picked out the three best possiblities, with a option of having a mix of each.

To me, being good at something and being legitimate is not always the same thing. So in my mind, there is no reason to lie about it. A lie could could be a point of sales, an attempt to seperate from the root, to appear original, or a simple misunderstanding. Regardless of the reasons, there is always an attempt to throw a red herring into the mix, which if you are simply mis-informed, is not worth the trouble of doing. The truth should set you free, but in the martial arts it just makes the egoist sprawl in defense.

[Lawrence]

Greetings.

This is an interesting discussion, but the point to consider isn't about effectivness but rather about preservation of a cultural practice and the study and understanding of history, myth and linieage
...One of Kano's students brought Kano Jiu Jitsu... From what I understand Kano called his system Kodokan judo and insisted on it being refured to as such. This was to distinguish it from koryu jujutsu and another classical school that also used the term judo. In my view this was the correct thing to do. As Ueshiba, who practiced various systems one of which was Daito ryu; he then called his system aikido. Both gents renamed their systems to distingush their difference from the koryu in the creation of their shin ryu. So why are we in a situation where it is considered wrong to rename your system?

I agree that many would consider it wrong to create your own, and "who the hell do you think you are...etc." could be asked. But this is far more respectful to a culture than blatently being fraudulent.

All systems have their strengths, their differences and have gained influence from other systems. Being honest is all that is required and telling people what and where the systems influences come from.

As with the koryu; the founder had usually gained respect by walking off the battle field rather than being caried. There are usually stories which tell of flaws in the system and a period of iscolation to gain inspiration (usually by running to the mountains and meeting a tengu). The addition of this new knowlege brings about the renaming of what the said individual did and thus a change of name occurs.

?

Why is this practice frowned upon in the modern day. The preservation of ethics as well as physical practice is part of budo so once an individual has made these changes shouldn't their influences be respected and honored by being remembered in densho simply by being documented?

Sometimes, using a slightly incorrect term is the only thing that lets a school build the base it needs to get on its feet.

But once on their feet shouldn't the intention be to be honest and not continue the fraud?

Anyway, good discussion you lot! I am enjoying reading.

Take care,

Lawrence Fisher.

P.S.
For further understanding we would be better served asking a linguist instead of martial artists.

I will do this today and post it in phonetics! :D

[rupertmja]

The same is true in the UK.

99% of so called Traditional JJ is of non-Japanese origin, except that it comes from mixing Judo, Karate, and ?Kung-Fu? etc. And for the very reason as stated in the original post above, a group of my friends and I (in the UK) made a small group (1994) and call what we do Goshin-jutsu, not Ju-jutsu. Why? Becuase we also learned these bastardised versions and RECOGNISE that what WE do is NOT standard Japanese Ju-jutsu.

Goshin represents the more modern form - I translate it as self-defence. It can incorporate elements of real Ju-jutsu. In fact, it can and does incorporate anything useful.
Ju-jutsu represents the older unchanging forms/styles.

[John Bennett]

Hi all. I have lurking around here for awhile but I just decided to get involved.

HA! And how!

[TonyU]

So that's how Cliff got involved in Budoseek. I see it's a natural born talent, not something he developed as he went along. ;)

[jwinch2]

So that's how Cliff got involved in Budoseek.

Nothing like coming strong out of the gate... ;)