Dealing with bullies [Archive] - BudoSeek! Martial Arts Community Forums

De_Franza

09-05-2003, 08:03

Originally posted by Jim

I usually attack the problem in a less head on way (appeals to my unconventional warfare side) and invite the parents around for BBQ's, etc. without actually making a big deal out of the thing.

That might just work.
I don't have kids so take this with a grain of salt (although, I was a kid so....) One of my good friends growing up was a kid I used to get in fights with all the time during 1st grade. That passed, and by second grade we were like best friends. go figure.
Perhaps discussing it with the parents when no incedent has occured will help you both go into the discussion with clear heads. don't be confrontational, try to promote the idea that you and them are on the same side, i.e. keeping the kids safe and happy.
I was bullied a little as a kid, more verbally than physically, but a little fighting too, and I really regret NOT knocking those kids out early on because it established a pattern that lasted thru high school. and at your son's age, he can't be sued or anything, and probably won't damage the bully permanently. (am I a bad influence yet?) Young boys don't want to talk things out, so if your son can't avoid the bully, I see nothing wrong with telling him that IF he has no other choice, he must defend himself. You'd tell him to fight back against an adult "stranger" right? not sure these equate, but as you said, you don't want to set him in a bad pattern.
Part of the issue is bullies usually have a pack of sicophants with them, and don't act tough without them. So this kid's behaviour might a charade that can be shattered if your son clocks him one. Or the bully might be really loney and actually wants to be your sons friend. Young people (and most adults) don't know how to express emotions, you know?

As I said, I don't have kids, I'm not a psychologist, and basically have no idea what I'm talking about, so I certainly won't be offended if you tell me I'm nuts.

The best of luck to you and your son. They say you can't go wrong if you follow your heart, so see what your heart says.

tkdcanada

09-05-2003, 08:44

Actually, no, you're not nuts. It helps to get feedback from people who are uninvolved. (I think I even said that to you before when I was having a dilemma re competing - little bit of deja vue here) Anyway, communicating with the parents is not an option after the mother freaked on the phone and I hung up. I was perfectly happy letting them deal with it and watching from the sidelines (ready to stop it IF things got to seriously out of hand) until she got in my face. Funny thing is, I bet that if the dad had called, things would have been discussed very sensibly - it always seems to be that way with women - I am one, but I hate dealing with other women, so many are just stupidly unreasonable.

This kid is actually standing alone. My son has started playing with his younger brother a bit more, so the problem may be jealousy and since this situation has escalated, the other boys on the block have been really backing my son. The bully kid is a few months younger but quite a bit bigger, so I think he tries to use his size to intimidate. So, maybe you're right that he's lonely, but hey, he brought it on - they've played together off and on for at least a couple of years, so it's not like they're new to eachother and sizing each other up.

What I've come to realize by way of this discussion is that what bothers me most, besides wanting to set a good precedence for my son's place in the "pecking order" is that I've been dragged into the stupidity of dealing with the psycho mother I hate being backed into a corner like that and it doesn't make me feel like being diplomatic.

About young people (and many adults) not being able to express emotions.....I suspect that's where the problem is stemming from and why my son doesn't feel the need to fight (we talk about everything at home), so you may have something there.

We've been telling my son that when people like that won't leave you alone and you've done ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING ELSE, then it's okay to hit them one good one and walk away. I made sure this was okay with my instructor (not wanting him to get kicked out of our club for it) and he said that sometimes, it's the only thing to do - which is pretty much the way I was leaning anyway.

BTW, just because you don't have kids doesn't mean you don't know what you're talking about, you can probably see things more clearly BECAUSE you don't have kids and you can be objective. You did bring up some good points. Thanks for your input. ;)

Thanks to you also Jim, I'll let you know how it turns out.

Abbax8

09-05-2003, 18:37

Evev though I'm the father of 8, that doesn't make me an expert on dealing with kids. It's mostly learn by doing. In this case,here's a suggestion. Since you apparently do TKD, I am assuming your son does also. Question, can he break a board yet. If yes, arrange for him to break one at home, and make sure the bully sees it happen. Psychological warfare! As a judoka we did something similar, only it was bodies flying through the air in a friends backyard years ago when some neighbor kids were hassling some of the younger ( 8-10 year olds) who were in our club. They suddenly stopped and even became invisible. Just a suggestion.

Peace
Dennis

tkdcanada

09-05-2003, 20:21

Wow! I never would have thought of that. That's a great idea. Definitely something I'll keep in mind. Thanks! :)

tpb

09-05-2003, 23:12

It's obvious that you care deeply for your children. In fact, I've seen a number of posts on this board that suggest that the budoseek group is a great bunch of parents. Taking daughters shooting, doing martial arts with children, etc -- these are all REALLY good for children.

I can say with alot of confidence that children who share activities with their parents are on the "right" track to adulthood.

So let's take a step back. I don't know much about the bully's upbringing. But the bully's mother didn't seem to know that there was bullying going on (based on what I've read). Does the bully have any interests? Perhaps he'd like to join you and your family in martial arts.

I'd be careful about showing the bully the board breaking. A show of force like that might escalate the situation. Yes, he is just 8, but things like that might stay in a person's memory for years.

Just some thoughts. Take with one large grain of salt.

Jim

09-06-2003, 04:36

See what I mean about anything you do will be the right and wrong thing? :D

I agree with the involving them in a total social activity with other kids, but not necessarily MA :o Just choose an activity that they're already doing and go with it (as long as it's healthy and legal). In ten years they won't even remember anyway...

fightgrrl

09-06-2003, 08:29

We had a good discussion here

Walking Away (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2426&perpage=20&highlight=walking%20away&pagenumber=1)

a while ago - the pertinent part may be Jeff's post about the suicidal kid we had in class. He was doing great in Karate, but had really taken walking away a bit too far, at some point I think boys need to reinforce their ego physically. what's odd is this kid was the dominant grappler at our school and was certain he could 'take' the kids bothering him, but no amount of walking away was deterring them. His mom and teachers knew about the situation and the kids' parents even had to go to school for a meeting- I think this made it worse for him because it still didn't stop.
It sounds like a butt kicking may turn out to be the best alternative in this situation. But I didn't really say that(!)

tkdcanada

09-06-2003, 09:12

Mark,

I've known them for a couple of years and basically, the mother is very controlling with the kids. She has them on a very tight rope and doesn't let them do a lot of things because her paranoia (example - she won't let them swim in public pools because she's afraid they'll get lice or a disease). When she called me and I told her what I saw, the reaction I got was one of denial - trying to turn it around on me and basically denying the fact that her son could instigate anything. Problem is, I've seen this kid's subtle ways often and I know how manipulative he is, but I thought that it was a good opportunity for my son to be exposed to the more unpleasant aspects of dealing with people therefore making it a learning experience and giving him better tools to deal with such situation via the benefit of experience. So, involving the kid in something with us is basically out because of the mother's attitude. She won't let them far out of her sight and then complains because they spent so much time playing at their place. Can't win. The more I think about it, the more I am thinking that the kid has issues of his own that he's taking out on my son. We have pretty much settled on the butt kicking option IF AND ONLY IF THE KID CONTINUES TO ANTAGONIZE. My husband told me this story of a guy in high school who kept getting bet up and all the avenues to stop it failed. One day the father came to get him and the guy had told the father that he was still getting picked on, the father asked him to point the guy out and when he did, the fathe said, okay, go kick his butt. He did, while the father watched and then they left, never to have a problem again. I don't like the idea of telling my kid to hurt someone else, but I am seeing that sometimes they won't give up until you put them in their place.

Fightgrrl,

I like that article re Walking away. The whole thread is very interesting and makes so much sense. It's true, self-confidence is number one and you can even walk away and keep your dignity of you have confidence.

Thanks guys, for all the really valuable input! :)

wab25

09-09-2003, 13:05

After reading this thread and the one on walking away, I feel that many people here are really missing the point. Many people here are equating fight avoidence with losing. If you walk away, you lose. If you run, you lose. If you back down, you lose. If you don't get your place in the pecking order, you lose. This mind set is completely wrong. Especially for anyone practicing martial arts.

My first sensei always said "winning means - can go to work tomorrow." Think about all your plans, and everything you have to do tomorrow. Do you have time to be dead? be in the hospital? be in jail? go to court?..... If you are able to go to work/school/whatever tomorrow, then you win, end of story. Most of the time, you can simply walk away. Sometimes you may have to run. If you are really unlucky, you may have to punch or throw or do something to create a situation where you can run away. But the point is, avoiding a physical confrontation, even by running with your tail between your legs, is WINNING. You get to do whatever you want to tomorrow, no hospital, no cops, no court... I hate to bring up Alex Gong again, but he was not afraid and he didn't back down, even at the end of his life. The reality is that we don't know who has a gun or knife or friends or a crossbow (just read about a highschool girl getting shot by a crossbow in the back by another highschool student ) Walking away, running away, avoiding the fight is WINNING.

I realize that your kid is young and so is the other boy. Even so, he may have a knife or gun. How many people at the school shootings knew the kid with the gun? Then, there are also freak accidents that happen. I live near the Golden Gate Bridge in California. I think it was 2 or 3 years ago a family was walking across the bridge, their 2 kids 9 and 10 were chasing each other playing tag. The 9 year old girl tripped and rolled under the railing and fell to her death. ( the railing is specifically designed to stop kids from accidently crawling thru, and it is very difficult to get even small infants thru the gap. ) Think about what could possibly happen if your kid fights the bully. One could fall and hit his head on a fire plug, cement sidewalk or curb. One could fall on an arm or leg wrong and break it, possibly causing perment damage. ( I fell and broke my arm in the 7th grade and came very close to injurying the growth plate, meaning my arm would have stopped growing from that point on. As it is, I have limited range of motion in my arm, that arm and entire side of my body is never aligned correctly, and I spent most of my 7th and 8th grade years learning how to use my arm again. ) One of the kids could be pushed or dart out into the street and get hit by a car. I could go on about things that probably won't happen, but could. Unfortunately, we have way to many stories about these very improbable things happening. I don't think its worth the risk.

I think your son should be taught that avoiding the fight is WINNING. He should feel good about his actions, he should feel that he has won a great battle. ( hasn't he? he overcame his fear, his ego and controlled himself. He choose the outcome of that situation and made it happen. on top of that, he didn't get hurt ) A kids position in the social pecking order only seems to be related to what he can do with his fists. I remember a quote that was sent around the internet attributed to Bill Gates - it was something like "be nice to the nerds, because you will be working for one." Kids should be taught that they can be whatever they want to be, that it doesn't matter where they start out. They should be taught that it is they who determine where they go in life. If the kids don't believe this, its because you haven't taught them that yet. I think your son is right for not fighting. He should be made to feel as though he won, because he did, in fact win.

tkdcanada

09-09-2003, 14:11

I agree with absolutely everything you said and that's why, this situation has not yet become physical and that's why I took the time to seek out opinions of other people. There are what ifs all around in life and obviously the best case scenario is to avoid physical confrontation. But.....if you are put into the position where you are forced to act physically, well then....I believe that used VERY SELECTIVELY AND ONLY WHEN ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY, this action will not lead to further physical confrontation but to self-respect and the respect of others. You need to know how to stand up for yourself. However, the very first thing I teach my kids is not to settle things physically and I think.. no, I know I've succeeded in teaching them this. Unlike many other siblings, they don't hit each other to solve problems EVER - it's not tolerated in our house. They also don't go looking for confrontation, they respect other people and they are disturbed when they see others being disrespectful or hurtful. My kids know that walking away is winning, that wasn't the point of the thread. The poing was, what do you do when walking away simply won't do. The kid kept coming around our house day after day, looking for a confrontation. So, what to do?? Also, I live in a sleepy town in Canada - it's unheard of for a kid that young to have a weapon..but I know, always assume so, just in case. I know they can, but those things (school shooting, etc..) just don't seem to happen here. My son knows we are proud of him for how he has handled himself and we don't make him feel like anything other than a winner. I was just looking for some feedback and opinions on the situation to see if my own feeling were on the mark - this is when being a parent becomes complicated, the first few years are a cake walk until you have to start letting go). Thank you very much, though for your input - I have thought of all the what ifs. I take nothing lightly which is why I like to use all the resources available to me to help me. Thanks. :)

BTW, the kid seems to be giving up. He's not coming by as much and harassing my son. So things are calm for now. :)

wab25

09-09-2003, 14:37

I apologize if I came across a bit too preachy to you tkdcanada. My remarks were not intended to be aimed at you, but more at the other people on this thread and the walking away thread, the ones who are overly concerned with ego's being hurt because he may feel bad if he walks away. It was to these people, who tell their kid to go beat him up in my presence or just sock him one so he will know you can beat him, that I was trying to aim my comments at.

You have obviously done very well with teaching your child. This is demonstrated by the very mature and responsible way he handled the situation. I know many adults who do not have the ability to do as your son.

The advice I was trying to give you and other people, was to change your definition of wining. I guess you were ahead of me on that.

My experience, being picked on by bullies when I was young, was exactly as yours. If you don't give them the reaction they are looking for, they get bored and go find fun elsewhere.

Again, I apologize for aiming my remarks at you. It is just that the attitude of standing your ground and fighting over essentially nothing more than ego, to get your "one up" on your antagonist frustrates me. People get hurt over egos.

Sgathak

09-09-2003, 14:54

I hate to bring up Alex Gong again, but he was not afraid and he didn't back down, even at the end of his life.

I hate to bring up Alex Gong too... because he ran down the vehicle and started punching the vehicles glass. Good example.

I get what your tryin to say Wab25... but I think your wrong. I think your position is based on the "martial artist = gentleman warrior" stuff which, quite frankly, I dont buy... and I think your being EXTREMELY alarmist with statements such as "One could fall and hit his head on a fire plug, cement sidewalk or curb. One could fall on an arm or leg wrong and break it, possibly causing perment damage." WTF? This is a straw man argument to instill fear. He might hit his head or break his arm playing baseball, riding his bike, climbing a tree, playing with the dog, rolling out of bed or in Tae Kwon Do class!

No one, not once, said that he should go pound the bully into oatmeal... what was being said is that kids are kids, and sometimes kids fight. To deny them that is to deny them basic growing expereinces that you, I, and darn near everyone on this board has had. Experiences that have helped shaped who we are... including guiding us to better understandings of violence and its effects. I think its a sad sad state of affairs when people think that you can just "tell" a child how to deal with situations. That you can somehow "instruct" them in the niceties of adolescent diplomacy. Sometimes a kid has to "live it". I know *I* had to get things physically knocked into my head on a few occasions and NO amount of instruction on the matter would tell this 11 year old that it was "winning" to NOT do something. Lemme tell you, its all rosy when its one kid on the play ground... lifes a whole different ball game, its not even the same SPORT... when its 3 kids that have you cornered in the locker room... your wearing just your underwear, and they have your clothes.

Rather than sheilding a child, or worse yet, instilling in the child the idea that "avoidance equals winning" (think of all the fun implications THAT can have in later life!) we should guide them in all the facets of life. Not JUST how to run away, but also how to stand up with dignity.

Mandeigh Wells

09-09-2003, 16:15

well actually I don't really buy into the walking away stuff.....sure initially, but if the harrassment continues there is only one way to be a bully and that is to BEAT a bully. and regardless of what the politically correct brigade like to instill in us...bullies are not victims, the people they pick on are the victims. Everyone has a right to get on with their life and do their own thing not harming others, but when you get some little a-hole bent on making your life a misery...whether he is an 8 year old school boy or a 40 year old office manager you have to make them see that bullying is not acceptable behaviour. I was the intended victim of many bullies throughout my school years, being a quiet and unassuming person, but all of them got much more than they bargained for, because my parents said to me....you are always going to be small (I am only 5' 2" now) and we are not always going to be around to fight your battles so you better learn to stand up for yourself.....that advice has stood me in good stead, I might let things go for a bit, but don't push your luck....

The only real problem I can see in your situation Micheline is the mother is going to think your son started it no matter what happens, so maybe a good hidding wouldn't go a miss there either...... :eek:

Mandeigh

wab25

09-09-2003, 16:17

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I think your position is based on the "martial artist = gentleman warrior" stuff which, quite frankly, I dont buy
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If you read my posts, both in this thread and others, you will see that to me "martial artist = person who works to choose the outcome of any situation." I advocate and train to do anything necessary to win ( go to work tomorrow ). It just so happens that 99% of the time, you can walk away. In reality, if you are far enough away from someone to throw a punch, you should be running, the other guy or his buddies may be throwing a bullet. However, in the event that someone has cornered you, or attacked you, you need to be able to defend yourself. Break a neck or arm or knee or rip off his nuts, whatever it takes to get to the point where you can run, then run.

===================
and I think your being EXTREMELY alarmist with statements such as "One could fall and hit his head on a fire plug, cement sidewalk or curb. One could fall on an arm or leg wrong and break it, possibly causing perment damage." WTF? This is a straw man argument to instill fear. He might hit his head or break his arm playing baseball, riding his bike, climbing a tree, playing with the dog, rolling out of bed or in Tae Kwon Do class!
====================

This is not being alarmist and is not to cause fear. This is being aware of the situation and the outcomes. The fact is these freak accidents do happen, and they happen more often than we like to think. I did take a normal fall and broke my arm, spent 2 years learning how to use it again ( very painful therapy ) and will have limited range of motion for the rest of my life. Kids do fall and hit their head on curbs, fire plugs, sidewalks, land on rakes..... You are right, these things also happen in many other activities besides fighting.

Let me give an example of where I am coming from. My cousin and his best friend used to walk to his Boy Scout meeting together. One day, when I was visiting him he decided not to go with his friend, but to visit his out of town cousin. His friend was hit by a car. He is now paralized from the waist down and severly brain damaged. ( not even fighting as you point out ) My cousin felt and still feels to this day 15 years later, that it was his fault, that if he had been there he would have seen the car. My cousin has been through years of therapy with councilors, even tried committing suicide because of his guilt. Imagine now if the situation were a little different. What if my cousin was mad at the teasing, or got pushed, and pushed the kid back, and the car hit him? Yes this is a long shot and would never happen, but I just read about an incident in New York I believe, ( on this board if I remember correctly ) where two men were pushing each other to be first on the subway car, one man lost his balance, fell and was run over by the train. How does the other guy feel? Remember the hockey dad? There was a fight at a kids hockey game, between the dad's, the smaller guy was a martial artist and ended up killing the other guy. I seem to remember him having a lot of problems after that legally. Would he have been better off walking away? I have seen fights between friends where someone falls and hits their head on concrete and gets a concussion. The other guy feels terrible. All this over something so small.

The fact is that these things can happen. Being a martial artist means being aware of the possibilities. Being a martial artist means being able to choose the best outcome. In walking away, you don't eliminate the possibility of something going wrong, but your reduce it drastically. When it is over something so small, like being pushed or hit once its kind of sad. In reality, it doesn't happen everytime, usually both parties go home with a few lumps. But I have also been there when one went to the hospital, and I have been there after to watch the mental anguish in the one who "won" the fight.

Simply stated, you should only fight when your life or the lives your loved ones is threatened. People need to understand that there are ramifications to their actions. You may be able to break bricks with your hands, what is that going to do to someones head if you hit them? Is fracturing someones skull worth proving that you shouldn't be pushed around? Is it worth the $20 you have in your wallet? Is it worth it when they sue you and quite possibly win, for excessive force? Note that we are assuming that it is the other guy who gets hurt, it could just as easily be us that gets hurt.

================================
what was being said is that kids are kids, and sometimes kids fight. To deny them that is to deny them basic growing expereinces that you, I, and darn near everyone on this board has had.
================================

Well, I grew up without ever getting into a fight. So did many of my friends. So also has the kid in question in this thread, he defended himself but never fought back. This kid in my opinion, is more mature, more of a martial artist and more of a "man" than many people on this board. He was aware of his situation, he did what he had too in order to defend himself. He did so in a way that did not change his life at all, he may even become friends with his tormentor in the future. He looked at the situation, choose the outcome he wanted and made it happen. That is to be applauded. That is the very definition of winning. He didn't do it by talking his way out, he had to use his skill, the guy was punching and kicking him. He should be proud of the way he has handled the situation.

=========================
I think its a sad sad state of affairs when people think that you can just "tell" a child how to deal with situations. That you can somehow "instruct" them in the niceties of adolescent diplomacy. Sometimes a kid has to "live it".
=========================

Apparently this childs parents have been doing more than just telling, they have been teaching their child. The way this child handled the situation is to be commended. As said before, this child has done what not too many adults can do. When children do what they should, they should be made to feel that way.

Avoidance is not winning. Being able to go to work/school tomorrow is winning. It may take walking away to do that, if so one should be man enough to walk away. It may take more than that to go to work/school tomorrow, in that case, do whatever it takes to get away, not more.

wab25

09-09-2003, 16:35

==========================
well actually I don't really buy into the walking away stuff.....sure initially, but if the harrassment continues there is only one way to be a bully and that is to BEAT a bully. and regardless of what the politically correct brigade like to instill in us...bullies are not victims, the people they pick on are the victims.
==========================

Well, I guess if you want to be the bully, go for it. My experience with bullies, and I had a lot of it growing up, was that if you don't react, they get bored and they leave you alone. This may take picking other routes to take, instead of the one where you know he will be. Don't mistake me, they never got my lunch money and they never got to pound me either. I just didn't let them have their satisfaction, I never played the game they wanted me to play. I got their respect for doing that. One guy in highschool, actually cornered me, threw me up against a wall, and I thought I was going to have to fight, but the bullies that used to pick on me my freshman year, pulled him away and sent him packing. They respected me for not playing their games. In the end, I never got hurt, I went on to college and have a good job and a family now. Where did I go wrong? What would be better now if I had fought that guy? I always forget these things...

Mandeigh Wells

09-09-2003, 16:40

Well, I guess if you want to be the bully, go for it. and just how does that make you be the bully exactly?

My experience with bullies, and I had a lot of it growing up, was that if you don't react, they get bored and they leave you alone. then you have been luckier than most, with the ones who thought it was fun to pick on me, my no reaction made it worse, they only stopped when I fought back....interesting I also managed college and a career and guess what my confidence in standing up for myself helped me with all of that.......horses for courses.

M

wab25

09-09-2003, 17:12

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and just how does that make you be the bully exactly?
==================

I was merely taking you for what you said "there is only one way to be a bully and that is to BEAT a bully. " Maybe you misstyped???

Maybe I have been lucky, but I have been in many instances where fighting would have been bad for me. I have seen fights, and walked away from many, run away from a few others. I never thought it was worth it to fight with some guy cause he thought I stared at his girl, even if I could take him. I have been in the middle when a full scale riot began, and I got out of that without a fight. I have seen a guy pull a shot gun and shoot at people while walking down the street, even killed a few at point blank, but I had to hear that on the news, I wasn't their long enough to see it all. I saw a highschool aquantance stabbed with a knife by gangsters in Taco Bell. I have had people shoot at me with fully automatic weapons ( stumbled on a drug farm while backpacking ). I have been held at knife point in a back alley in san francisco. I have had a few drunks grab me out behind a bar while going to my car. I live in a neighborhood where SWAT teams show up regularly to arrest people, where street gangs surround cars and pull people out. I have had druggies approach me in my garage at 11pm asking for money, carrying baseball bats ( usually after I got home from jujitsu ). I have never been beaten up, never gave up my money and never fought. I always found a way out. Yes a few times I used some jujitsu escapes to get away from someones grip, but then I could walk or run away. That guy in Taco Bell, he fought back when he was pushed to far by the bullies, he died before he made it to the hospital. Martial Arts is about surviving. When you fight, realize that it always has the possibility of changing or ending someone's life. If you can walk away, or run away, that is ALWAYS better. If you are going to fight, make sure you know what you are fighting for and what you are risking. Even if you win, you may still have to deal with the legal system ( not so much so if you run away after breaking his leg, he may not be able to ID you ) and your own conscience, knowing what you did to your opponent. Just make sure it is worth something. Most of the time, even in very bad situations, you can get out if you use your head, are aware, and are not bothered by your ego.

Mandeigh Wells

09-09-2003, 17:24

actually I quoted you..........;)

crieky where do you live...Glasgow? :D

getting back to bullies.........

I don't go around picking fights, but when I have had to in the case of bullying in school .......and its not about ego, its about getting your hair ripped out while you are on the ground, then I have left the bully in no doubt that they made a huge mistake picking on me and I was taught that from an early age.......

Mandeigh

Sgathak

09-09-2003, 17:39

Wab25,

Im genuinely glad that you have had a life experience wherein you have never had to use physical means to deflect bullies or to defend your self from attack. I wouldnt wish the experience on anyone, but others have not had the same experience has you. Some of us have been the objects of bullies FAR more aggressive than the child being spoken of here.

Some children have been cornered and beaten in the class room.

Some children are assaulted in the home, and not just by parents, but by brothers and sisters... sometimes to death.

Some children are "sneak" attacked while riding home. Being beat by 1, 2,5 children at a time.. sometimes just punches and kicks, sometimes with sticks and knives.

Some children are harrassed physically to the point of bodily harm. Being pinched, chocked, and thrown in the classroom and on the playgound until severe damage is done.

For someone who didnt have the childhood experience of being hit from behind with blunt objects by bullies and beaten by groups of children who didnt like your clothes... You sure seem to have it all figured out.

Kids have it harder now than ever before, and in no small measure due to bullies having an easy mark in the kid who wont fight back.

wab25

09-09-2003, 19:20

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For someone who didnt have the childhood experience of being hit from behind with blunt objects by bullies and beaten by groups of children who didnt like your clothes... You sure seem to have it all figured out.
========================

Read my last post in this thread for my experiences. I admit having people hunt you with automatic rifles because you were in the wrong part of the woods is different than being hit in the back of the head with a blunt object, as is having a knife put to your throat because you are the wrong color in a certain part of town after dark.

I do admit that there are times when one has to fight. I even go so far as to prepare for those times, like most people here. My problem is with people feeling that they lost because the walked away, or because they didn't hit back. Go back and read the thread mentioned in an earlier post about walking away. You will find many people there as well as many people here on this thread who feel that you have lost if you walk away. It is that additude that I have a problem with. If any person is in real danger, they have every right to use any means neccessary to protect themselves.

=================
Some children have been cornered and beaten in the class room.

Some children are assaulted in the home, and not just by parents, but by brothers and sisters... sometimes to death.

Some children are "sneak" attacked while riding home. Being beat by 1, 2,5 children at a time.. sometimes just punches and kicks, sometimes with sticks and knives.

Some children are harrassed physically to the point of bodily harm. Being pinched, chocked, and thrown in the classroom and on the playgound until severe damage is done.

====================

These are all great examples of situations where fighting your way out is the only way. There is no argument here from me. My point was that they boy that this thread was about, did well in his situation. In addition, he should not feel as if he lost, he should feel as though he won, for many reasons. 1 he was not hurt. 2 the other guy also was not hurt. 3 due to reason #2 there are no legal problems. 4 due to reasons 1 and 2 no one is in the hospital. 5 he controlled the situation, even got his parents involved. 6 he did not panic, but was calm and allowed his training to protect him. 7 the kid has started to leave him alone, and there may be a chance that they will be friends someday.

My point is that he should not have knocked some sense into this kid in this situation. He should not feel bad about his actions. He should not look back and say "I wish I would done things different."

My point is that avoiding physical violence does not equal losing. Walking or running away should not be considered losing. Many more situations can be walked away from or run from than we tend to think. I got dragged off the main street into an alley and a knife put up to my throat because I was the wrong color by a guy twice my size who really did not like me and I found a way to walk away, even with my money and wallet. On top of that, you should get out of the situation at the first opportunity. The longer you stay, the higher the probability that you will be hurt, either physically or legally or mentally if you damage someone severly over a small misunderstanding. You have the right to defend yourself and loved ones. You do not have the right to get one up, to prove yourself or to make a point. All of these land you in jail if they press charges.

We all talk big here about doing what has to be done to protect yourself. Sometimes it means knocking someone out, choking them out, breaking an arm or leg or neck. But, it also means walking away or running away. And if someone should walk away, run away, talk their way out, even if they go so far as to give the guy the money, they should not feel that they lost. If they are able to go to work tomorrow, they won. They did whatever they had to in order to protect themselves. Yes some one is going to write me back and say "so just let the rapist have his way?" or "just let people walk over you?" That is not what I am saying at all. I am saying that there are many situations that you can walk away from or run from where those are the best answers. There are also a countless number of situations where that is not the best solution, where standing your ground would be better. But if you choose to walk or run from a situation or even just avoid it, you WON, you defended yourself successfully. You did not lose, it is dangerous to feel that you will lose if you just walk away.

Sgathak

09-09-2003, 20:44

I dont think that many people would reasonably argue that to fight when the fight isnt needed would be a good choice.

I dont think many people would reasonably argue that its better to get in a fight than look like a ... well.. insert your own effeminate derogatory word here.

People may talk like that, but I dont think many honestly mean it in the long run.

However, fighting has a place. Sometimes it needs done.
Nobody has to like it, but on occasion, your out of luck on whether or not you get to choose.

Thats all.

tkdcanada

09-09-2003, 22:11

Wow!! I go out for a few hours and this thread just flies away on me!! I like it. The subject is bringing up a lot of valuable discussion and some past emotional content which is not entirely bad. Where do I begin in my response? First of all William, don't apologize for being preachy. I hear where you're coming from and was not offended at all. You're right in a way. In a perfect world, no one would ever have to fight and people could just reason their way out of everything and it actually surprises me each time I see situations escalate to the point of physical confrontation. How does it happen? Are people that unreasonable? Ego has a lot to do with it I'm sure, and no one wins. Unfortunately, life would be very dull if you avoided every situation that could hurt you, and that applies to fighting back. If the sole reason for not fighting back is because some freak event could cause some permanent injury or damage, then it's not a good enough reason, since just walking across the street or getting up in the morning could do that (as Sgathak mentioned). I certainly don't want my kids to decide what to do based on the possible outcomes, but rather based on how they feel in their gut or in their heart. That means, if the want to feel the rush of skydiving for example, I want them to do it even if they could end up taking a nose dive and getting killed. It's not the possible outcomes that matter but how well and completely you live your life. As far as standing up to bullies, I want their strength of character to overshadow their fear of getting hurt and if they feel they are being treated badly, I want them to stand up for themselves and what they believe. Wasn't Alex Gong stepping in to help someone else - that's totally different - that wasn't his battle and the deed was already done; what could he possible have had to gain from going after the guy? In the case of standing up to a bully, you have your dignity and self-respect to gain. And unfortunately, bullies don't always eventually give up. I work as a teacher mainly in schools that go from grade 7 - 10 and some kids get razzed and bullied all through the year. They just stand out for some reason or the bullies see an opening or a weak spot and they go in for the kill and wear down the victim. The sad part is that school officials aren't often observant enough and the victim who eventually loses it and fights back ends up being labelled as "needing anger management" or something. I've witnessed this and have stood up for the victim fighting back. No one should ever treat you like crap and that's my greatest peeve about people - there isn't enough respect and I won't tolerate my kids disrespecting anyone (making fun of, teasing, hitting, laughing at, being snobby to, etc...) Get this: In my kids school, they were just told that the code of conduct was revised and that if anyone hits them, they are absolutely devended from hitting back - all they can do is cross their arms in front of them. I was appalled (sp.) and I said to my kids that if they were ever in a situation like that, they have my permission to fight back regardless of what the school says and that they would never be in trouble at home for defending themselves. I would be at that school so fast and would fight for them tooth and nail on the issue. (I tell ya, sometimes catholics go a little too far with non-violence). But beware if they ever, ever start something. I agree with Sgathak, sometimes you don't get to choose, they are just in your face and there's only one way to get rid of them.

Before I forget, Mandeigh, you're right. No matter what my son does, the mother will think he started it. Doesn't bother me. My conscience is clear. I'm the one who has the kids who never hits his sibling, always listens to me without question (maybe some whining sometimes, but NEVER defiance), follows the rules even when I'm not around and never has to be punished - not to brag, but I am blessed with two wonderful kids. They aren't perfect by any means, but on the right path. The other kids is grounded every other day and I can hear the mother yelling at him from down the block.

You are right William. In this case, things turned out well with not fighting....for now. On your mention of legal problems, bring em on. I wouldn't let that stop me from letting him fight back. People don't seem to sue here in Canada as much as in the US - maybe it's not as easy or profitable, I don't know, but I don't usually let negative consequences stop me from doing something I believe is right - maybe stupid and self-destructive, but I don't like to be controlled that way.

Sgathak is right, kids do have it harder these days and I get a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach when I remember that they have to grow up and I won't always be able to protect them. Kids seem to be alot more physical and desensitized to violence these days - very scary. I'm kind of in the letting go stage and am still going through some transition getting used to them actually having a bit of a life outside of me. It's a tough transition, but I will not hold them back because of my own fears. I see these experiences as learning experiences for dealing with life and really isn't our ultimate goal to raise kids who become competent, well rounded adults? They can only do that by living their experiences directly and using trial and error to deal with problems. Not always easy to watch as a parent, but necessary.

Mandeigh has a point, that sometimes the only way to earn respect is to stand up and fight back. Another thought, the hierarchy thing isn't really out there and it doesn't all have to do with ego. People are social beings and societies work best with a hierarchy of some sort in place. So, really, pecking order is a very valid issue and however that turns out can set the stage for life - to be difficult or easy. If you end up on top via proving yourself by fighting back to bullies but remain an good and honourable person, then life will be easy, so to speak. If you end up on top but are a bully, life may be easy for a while, but you will crash one day when you choose to go after the wrong person. If you let yourself get crapped on, this becomes norm and you're in for a lifetime of it. If you end up on bottom because you're just not a forceful person, but have mental tools to keep bullies at bay, you may always be on bottom, but at least have respect. Many outcomes, better to make it one of the better ones early in life.

I've enjoyed getting all of your thoughts and opinions and it's been very enlightening. It's so much easier to get through difficult situations by using others as a sounding board. It's worked for me on many occasions and I am more than willing to offer the same to others. Thanks guys! :)

De_Franza

09-10-2003, 08:29

William (nice name, BTW)
you almost make a valid point, nothing you said was obviously untrue, but I still feel children need to know it's okay to defend themselves if they are in danger. There are bullies, and they may grow bored, but later the speedfreaks, drunks and desperate poor will not, and there will be no avoiding the fight, and the kid (now an adult) will not be prepared, and will be hurt or killed unnecessarily. Life if precious, especially our own. Fighting to maintain ego is absolutly stupid, as you said, but the line must be drawn somewhere or you're setting yourself up to be a victim. It's a grey area to be sure, that's what makes it such a challenge to explain to a child, as we adults don't necessarily understand it ourselves!
To nitpick one point you made, you listed several ways the kids could be injured while fighting (ie, falling on a curb, running in front of a car, etc etc) all of these injuries are realities of suburban life that the kids could get playing frisbee or baseball or tag, or crossing the street. But should they avoid these games? of course not.

Originally posted by wab25
My remarks were not intended to be aimed at you, but more at the other people on this thread and the walking away thread, the ones who are overly concerned with ego's being hurt because he may feel bad if he walks away. It was to these people, who tell their kid to go beat him up in my presence or just sock him one so he will know you can beat him, that I was trying to aim my comments at.
<snip>
It is just that the attitude of standing your ground and fighting over essentially nothing more than ego, to get your "one up" on your antagonist frustrates me. People get hurt over egos.

wab25

09-10-2003, 11:18

================
To nitpick one point you made, you listed several ways the kids could be injured while fighting (ie, falling on a curb, running in front of a car, etc etc) all of these injuries are realities of suburban life that the kids could get playing frisbee or baseball or tag, or crossing the street. But should they avoid these games? of course not.
================

I obviously was not very clear with this point. I realize that people can get hurt doing just about anything, in fact most of my examples did not include fighting. If your kid hits someone, and some freak thing happens where the other kid ends up in the hospital, it will be very traumatic for your kid. I have seen this happen and would not like to see this happen to other people.

I believe you should play frisbee, baseball or go skydiving. Live life and do what you want. But I don't know why anyone would want to needlessly risk not being able to do the things you want. That is the whole point about winning means going to work tomorrow. Winning means being able to play baseball tomorrow, play frisbee tomorrow or go skydiving tomorrow. If someone pushes you, even hits you and you walk away, you can do whatever you want tomorrow. If you stand your ground and fight back, sure most of the time you will still be able to do what you want to tomorrow. But, the probability of you not being able to do what you want, goes up a lot, for many reasons. Obviously, if you get hurt, you won't be skydiving tomorrow. If you hurt the other guy, will you feel like skydiving tomorrow? ( thats personal, some people may, some may not ) If you are in jail for assault or excessive force, you will not be skydiving.

I think fighting is a last resort. If there is a way to walk away, you should. If there is a way to run away, you should. And, you should feel like you won, because you did win. If you have to fight, and yes I do believe there are times when you have to, fight until you can run away. If you stay around any longer, you are taking a needless chance.

About the bullies. All through grade school, junior high and highschool, I was the kid on the bottom of the pecking order. I was the one that all the bullies went after. But you can use your head to defeat the bully. If you run away the first time, yes he will be there tomorrow. But, tomorrow you can go a different route. If he wants your lunch money, bring a sack lunch, leave the money at home. Hang around a group of kids that don't like the bully, all bullies have people that don't like them. I realize that some people don't like to be controlled this way. But they miss the point. When you get sucked into a fight that the other guy wants, on his terms, you are not in control. By not making yourself a target, by using your surroundings you are in control.

I think one of the major differences here between our positions is the basic idea of the art we study. If you push me, I will not push back, I will pull. If I push back, it is force against force, being a small guy, I may not win. If you push me, and I pull, I get control of you because I over extended you and took your balance. I can now do whatever I want to you, so long as I keep your balance. This idea has been around a while. Kano taught it to his students. In fact, people who fought Kano say that it was like fighting an empty gi, but still they lost. You don't always have to push back to win. In fact, if you are pushing against someone trained like I am, you will most likely lose. We are waiting for you to push, we train specifically to make you lose when you push. Look at the Russians in WWII. When the Germans came, they retreated, burning crops and raising towns before the Germans got there. Because they did this, the Germans moved too fast, supply lines were too stretched and the winter set in. The Russans won, they beat the Germans, and retained all of their land that they had given up. ( yes I realize they were very lucky that winter came, winter does have that way of sneaking up on you every year at the same time when you least expect it )

I see on this board too many times when people feel bad for walking away, or avoiding a fight. You should never feel bad for avoiding a fight. If you can get out of a situation without having to fight, you have accomplished something. You don't always have to meet force with force to win, there are whole martial arts devoted to this very idea. Just because you don't use force against force, does not mean that you are being walked over or taken advantage of. In all the situations I have been in, I never gave up what they wanted, never lost my money or my dignity. Sometimes, there are ways to win by going around the force.

tkdcanada

09-10-2003, 13:46

I think everyone agrees that the best case scenario is not to fight. Everyone also agrees that sometimes you need to. I guess that the disagreement comes along in deciding when it's necessary and also deciding which other avenues constitute acceptable options. I probably would try to get away the first time, but I really don't think I would run away by a different route 3 or 4 or however many times. I think that would just invite the chase. I see what you are saying by avoiding is winning, but continuing the cat and mouse game day after day, even though you keep avoiding (for the mean time) is not, in my opinion winning. I guess, it's just a personal choice. Personally, I would have regret over continued running and feel as though I acted like a coward. Not because of my ego, but because I didn't stand up and let that person know that I was important enough to myself to stand up against him. That would bring down my self esteem and I would be too bummed out to enjoy myself, even though I was still around to. On the other hand, if I fought back (just using myself as an example in a hypothetical situation) and hurt someone or put them in the hospital, I would be fine with it because I would have a clear conscience knowing that I did everything to keep it from coming to that, even though on any given day, it would bother me to say even a mean word to someone.

I agree with surrounding yourself with friends. There is power and numbers and it's always a good practice not to draw attention to yourself by being alone. Stance is also important - hold your head high, maintain eye contact, etc... sometimes that's all the intimidation necessary.

So I guess, what it comes down to, is yes, avoid a physical confrontation, but do it for the right reasons, don't compromise your self respect in the process and make sure the decision is rational and not emotionally charged.

Sgathak

09-10-2003, 14:00

Personally, I would have regret over continued running and feel as though I acted like a coward. Not because of my ego, but because I didn't stand up and let that person know that I was important enough to myself to stand up against him. That would bring down my self esteem and I would be too bummed out to enjoy myself, even though I was still around to.

**clap clap clap**

wab25

09-10-2003, 14:43

Well, at least we are agreeing on a few points. The main ones at least.

=================
I probably would try to get away the first time, but I really don't think I would run away by a different route 3 or 4 or however many times. I think that would just invite the chase.
=================

Again, my comunication skills must have got to me again. What I was trying to say was that if I meet the bully on the corner of 2nd and main st and run from him the first time. Then the next day I find a route where I don't have to go near the corner of 2nd and main street. He won't chase whats not there.

The only other thing is our perception. Its not that I value myself any less that I don't fight him or stand up to him. Its that I value myself so much that I won't let him keep me from what I want. If I want to go to my friends house, I go there, even if I have to go around the block, I still get to my friends house. If I stand up to the bully, maybe I get to my friends house, maybe I don't. I don't think the bully is worth my time or effort. I still get to my friends house, and in going around the block, I expended less energy and took less risk, thus being safer.

Sgathak

09-10-2003, 14:54

Look at the Russians in WWII. When the Germans came, they retreated, burning crops and raising towns before the Germans got there. Because they did this, the Germans moved too fast, supply lines were too stretched and the winter set in. The Russans won, they beat the Germans, and retained all of their land that they had given up. ( yes I realize they were very lucky that winter came, winter does have that way of sneaking up on you every year at the same time when you least expect it )

Just one small historical nitpick... this had nothing to do with a push-pull situation. this was a "well if we cant have it, neither can you!" situation. They burnt down large sections of the Kremlin to keep Napoleon from getting it, and would have done it again if the Nazi's got much closer before winter.

Sorry... was just a small point that was driving me nuts.

tkdcanada

09-10-2003, 16:37

No, William, you were clear, I understood, and although I do respect what you are trying to say, it's just that I wouldn't go around the block. I might the first time, but not again. The second time, I'd probably bring a friend or something, but I wouldn't detour. Although, I get what you're saying about valuing yourself so much that you wouldn't do it, I tend to thing there are two facets to that. I do get what you're saying, but for me, doing the detour more than once, would result in somewhat of a loss of self-respect, even though I ultimately got what I wanted (to go to wherever I was going). The reason, is because I didn't get what I want on my own terms. I had to go out of my way to avoid some idiot who has nothing better to do.

Any life problem tends to stick with you unless and until you face it head on and get rid of it once and for all. This goes for problem people to just problems in general. Therefore, I tend to be more of a straight line person which is why I would probably elect to bring a friend (not necessarily a tough friend, just a friend since often numbers are enough to discourage) or something more direct like that. I tend to think the head on approach earns more respect in the long run. Mind you, I admit, this bull mentality has gotten me in trouble now and then (never a fighting situation - never had one) so there's some refining to do there, but I can honestly say, that I've never really regretted my actions because I knew I was justified. I could have taken an easier route and saved myself some distress, but then I would have been full of bitterness at not having dealt directly with the situation. That's just me though. Don't forget, you can avoid fighting head on too by using social skills which may work or may not...and of course should be tried first.

So I guess, it just comes down to the lesser of two evils and since I have to live with myself and my decisions, I'm not willing to compromise my self-respect by avoiding to that extreme.

wab25

09-10-2003, 17:39

Your point is well put, and I respect it. We may have to agree to disagree on whether to go thru or around certain problems.

=================
I do get what you're saying, but for me, doing the detour more than once, would result in somewhat of a loss of self-respect...

So I guess, it just comes down to the lesser of two evils and since I have to live with myself and my decisions, I'm not willing to compromise my self-respect by avoiding to that extreme.
=================

This is the point I disagree with. I shouldn't (and I personally don't) feel any loss of self-respect by taking the detour. If anything, I should ( and I personally do ) feel that I was successful in handling the situation. I won, and thats how I feel. People on this board seem to equate taking the detour or not getting what I want on my terms, as losing, as losing self respect and as not being a good martial artist. This should not be the case. I took an action in order to protect myself, and I was not hurt. How does this differ from the definition of self defense?

The problem I have with going thru the bully, to get what I want on my terms is that next time I go by there, he will be there waiting with a baseball bat, knife, gun or buddies. ( how can you be sure he doesn't have these when you stand up to him to prove your point? ) On top of that, he will have it out for you, a grudge. Around here where I live, there are many gangs. If you mess with the bully on the corner, you may beat him, but you should expect a visit from his gang. Here they wait till you get in your car and they surround it with 20 people, they break your windows, pull you out and beat you, then drive off with your car. Yes, this is only a possibility, but here, it is very real. It happens on my street, right outside my garage. Why should I be made to feel as though I am losing my self respect by going around the block and avoiding all of the mess? I am taking an active action, in order to defend myself and it works. In fact, after going around the block a few times, they usually forget you, they have found some new form of entertainment. If I have to go by their corner for any reason, they have no reason to target me specifically.

One of the best martial artists I know used to be a prison guard. He is known in that prison because he breaks up the fights. He has saved other guards when they were attacked, literally fighting for his life and the other guards life in multiple armed attacker scenarios inside the prison. He was successful every time. He teaches and practices going around the block. I have seen him walk away from fights he could have easily won. Everyone who knows him looks up to him for it.

We each have to choose, whether to go around or thru the conflict. It is easy to see how going thru the conflict successfully is winning. But going around the conflict is also winning. There should be no shame in going around the block.

Sgathak

09-10-2003, 18:06

I dont think it has anything to do with winning or loosing, and just those words make me think that someone is out there keeping score. Its not about that. Its about living your life the best way YOU can.

Some people think taking the detour is best, some prefer to face there torubles head on. NEITHER are winning or loosing.

I would quite willingly get hurt, or killed, to know that when it happened, I was living my life the best way I knew how.

tkdcanada

09-10-2003, 18:16

William,

No wonder we disagree. We are looking at things from two completely different perspectives. Where I live (and I was born and raised here) everyone knows everyone or if you don't know them, you've heard of them. I have never seen or heard of a gang here and situations such as what you describe happens in front of your garage would make the headlines here and everybody would be talking about it. If I lived in that type of environment, I would have a very different opinion of what to do and would most likely do what you do. However, I am looking at things from the perspective of nothing more than a one on one situation where one kid is trying to one-up another with the use of physical confrontation - no gangs, no weapons.

As far as equating running away or detouring with losing, I don't thing that's what the people on this board are saying at all. I think you are missing something. I thing everyone agrees, yes by all means, walk away, but they are also saying, don't resort to cowardism - in other words, walk, don't run (figuratively); don't give the bully the satisfaction of knowing he's intimidated you. When that happens, in my eyes, you lose a little something of yourself.

The gang mentality is something completely different and I can see how and why you would avoid it at ALL costs.

tkdcanada

09-10-2003, 18:19

We must have posted at the same time. Well put, Sgathak. You just said what I was trying to say in a lot less words.

wab25

09-10-2003, 19:21

I am glad we are finally coming to a place where we can agree. I grew up in a town similar to the one you live in, tkdcanada. But it changed, by the time I reached highschool. The guy I mentioned that got stabbed in Taco Bell, was stabbed by a gang member from LA. We didn't know the gangs were even in our little town yet. It was that event that made people aware of them, even the police. I hope your town does not go through the same changes.

One remark on the cowardism you mentioned. I have seen too many people stay and fight cause they were too afraid to walk away. They were afraid of what their friends or girlfriend would think. They were afraid that walking would hurt their social position. That too is a form of cowardism, it has kept many people from walking away when they could have, and gotten many of them hurt. I think the key is to make your decision rationally. Don't let fear make the decision for you. Isn't that why we train? To learn to overcome our fears?

=======================
I dont think it has anything to do with winning or loosing, and just those words make me think that someone is out there keeping score. Its not about that. Its about living your life the best way YOU can.

Some people think taking the detour is best, some prefer to face there torubles head on. NEITHER are winning or loosing.
=======================

There is someone keeping score out there, you. You keep score on yourself, everyone does. Many of the sensei's I have talked with tell stories about the guys they teach. They get into a situation and they walk away, then they call their sensei to tell them about it, wanting to know if they are still a man. I don't think I missunderstood the remarks made in this thread to the effect of, "if your kid walks away, he will let people walk all over him for his whole life."

================
Personally, I would have regret over continued running and feel as though I acted like a coward. Not because of my ego, but because I didn't stand up and let that person know that I was important enough to myself to stand up against him. That would bring down my self esteem and I would be too bummed out to enjoy myself, even though I was still around to.
================
I was bullied a little as a kid, more verbally than physically, but a little fighting too, and I really regret NOT knocking those kids out early on because it established a pattern that lasted thru high school.
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Rather than sheilding a child, or worse yet, instilling in the child the idea that "avoidance equals winning" (think of all the fun implications THAT can have in later life!) we should guide them in all the facets of life. Not JUST how to run away, but also how to stand up with dignity.
================

These are from this thread. Read the thread "walking away" for more such quotes. These quotes imply that by walking away or avoiding a fight, you lose a part of yourself, that you lose your dignity, that it will become a cycle of abuse for the rest of your life. I think that instilling that idea in people, especially kids, is far more dangerous than instilling the idea that it is ok to walk away, or run away. In fact, it may even be the best solution in many situations. If it happens to be the solution you choose and use effectively, you did not lose any self respect, or dignity. You have accomplished at least as much as if you had stood there and fought back.

Simple statements like these really have a huge affect on people. Watch someone learning how to fall for the first time. They are scared to death because they have been told all their life "if you fall down you will get hurt." It takes people a long time to over come this statement. The only reason people feel like they have lost their dignity or self respect by walking away is because other people have told them that. The greatest power in Martial Arts is that we learn that we can choose. We can choose how we fight. We can choose when we fight. We can choose how we react to certain things. We can choose to be afraid or not to be afraid. We can choose how we view ourselves and others. We have a choice in everything. You can throw me as hard as you want into the ground, but I get to choose how hard I hit the ground. The world can call me whatever names it wants to, can belittle me in any way, but I choose how I view myself. If we forget this ability to choose, we have lost everything. No matter what rank or how many years you have studied Martial Arts, if you have not learned that you can choose, you have learned nothing.

tkdcanada

09-10-2003, 20:43

Our town doesn't have any big cities very near it to attract this kind of activity. Lots of space here and open country.

Re cowardism....I would never do or advise someone to do something based on what others would think. I strongly believe that the only person you have to answer to is the person you see in the mirror. When I mention cowardism, I mean letting yourself down because you let fear make your decision. You never have anything to prove to anyone and the kid who was hassling my son wanted to race him at one point on their bikes. I told my son that was a stupid thing to do because winning a race doesn't determine anything and is inviting possible serious injury and I wanted to get this point across because before you know it the stake could get higher and they'd be doing more stupid daredevil stuff like drag racing, etc...That's stupid because you're out to prove something. Fighting back just says, "I've had enough, you won't do this, I won't take it, back off." Don't forget, I always have maintained that it should be a last resort and I believe that's also what everyone else has said or meant. Fighting to save face would be stupid, no question.

I guess it's a matter of perception because I didn't get the message that "if he walks away, he will let people walk over him for life" from anyone. All I got was that sometimes, there is not other option and that it's okay and acceptable to physically defend yourself if need be.

I don't think any of the quotes you quoted imply that walking away is negative in the general sense. It's more to the effect (in my opinion) that ALWAYS avoiding or NEVER defending yourself can carry with it some negative implications that can stay with you, always and never being the operative words. Each case is individual and needs to be evaluated by its own merit and I'm sure everyone who responded realizes that.

When Sgathak commented on the fun implications that teaching avoidance = winning can have later in life, I think (if I'm not mistaken) that he was just trying to say that a person who is brought up to continuously avoid unpleasant situations or experiences ends up later being a person who is completely unable to cope with any kind of stress or unpleasant situation - and we all know, that no one can successfully go through their whole life avoiding this. Therefore, this person would be a basket case and virtual liability to society.

I think everyone here realizes that you DO choose your destiny and that was their whole point in allowing fighting back as an option. I don't think anyone said it was the ONLY option.

I choose how I see myself, and I choose to be seen as a strong person (physically and mentally) who can stand on my own two feet. I know that walking away doesn't negate that. If I choose to walk away from a situation, I will still be strong and have respect. It is my belief in myself and my decision that will do that for me, no matter what I decide, not the decision itself.

wab25

09-10-2003, 21:22

It sounds as though we agree. You choose to go through and I choose to go around. I just wanted to present the case that avoiding is just as valid as fighting back.

Let me present another example of how I go around a conflict and still win. My sensei is an incredible Martial Artist and teacher. People travel from long distances to learn from him. One of the black belts that teaches many of the regular classes does not like him and disrespects him at every opportunity. When sensei is not around, he shows us the "real" way to do the techniques. As soon as we start to get his way, his way changes. He lets you know in front of the class that he does not approve of the way you are doing the technique, even if you are doing it exactly as sensei has instructed you, even if you are doing it exactly as he instructed yesterday. I think he likes making himself look good, by making other people look bad.

Some people leave the dojo because of him. They lose something they wanted, because he gets in their face and challenges everything they do. So they leave, they let him take what they had.

Some people confront him. They tell him this is how sensei wants it done, this is how I will do it. If they stick to their guns long enough, he will realize that you are not going to change and lets you do it the way sensei wants it done. They do not let him take what they want. The advantage of doing things this way is that they get to advance faster, and thus learn more techniques from higher lists.

I don't confront him. He tells me that my technique sucks, so I ask him how to improve it. He shows me how he wants it done. (today) So, I do it that way. When sensei is there, I do it the way he wants and let the two of them argue. I do not let him take away from me what I want. I don't advance as fast as other students, but the advantage here is that I learn many different ways to do each technique.

Which way is better? The first is right out, you lose all that you wanted to gain. The second, you get what you want, the training. But you also learn how to stick to what you know is right, in the face of a challenge. The third, you also get what you want. But you also learn how to work with people, how to be flexible while still getting your way. You also learn a little patience. ( I also learn the techniques well enough, in enough different ways that when he tries demonstrating on a resisting opponent, he ends up on his @$$, which is very satisfying ;) )

Again it is a choice that we make. One way is as good as the other, so long as you don't compromise or give up what is valuable to you. Most importantly, we agree that fear should never make the choice for us.

Sgathak

09-10-2003, 21:24

When Sgathak commented on the fun implications that teaching avoidance = winning can have later in life, I think (if I'm not mistaken) that he was just trying to say that a person who is brought up to continuously avoid unpleasant situations or experiences ends up later being a person who is completely unable to cope with any kind of stress or unpleasant situation - and we all know, that no one can successfully go through their whole life avoiding this. Therefore, this person would be a basket case and virtual liability to society.

Exactly.

Now, moving on...

Personally. I take exception to this notion of score keeping. I dont keep a tally of what Ive "won" or "lost" (and quite frankly dont appreciate the implication that I do). These things are not of interest to me.

I could not live my life the way you do... I could not constantly take the detours and jump the fences of this life just to avoid a little strife. Personally, I need a little adversity. Its not an ego thing, its not about score keeping. Its just who I am.

I was watching a movie last night... just caught the tail end of it, "the Banger Sisters". At the end one of the daughters was giving her graduation valedictorian address and said "Be True. Be True to you. It is better to be true to who you are and to fail, than to be someone elses notion of who you should be and succed. Live life on your own terms and Be True to YOU." I found the point to be of great value and even have some validity here.

For me, and others, to be true to ourselvs we cannot simply run and hide.

"Do not go gentle into that good night...
Rage, rage against the dying of the light."

I not going to let someone rule my life, unless that someone is me.

tkdcanada

09-10-2003, 22:09

Very well said. I tend to enjoy that little bit of adversity. It keeps me feeling alive and just makes life a little more interesting. :)

johenora

10-06-2003, 03:35

Children should not fight. But at an early age must be trained in self-protection methods as against an adult in an assault and battery situation when alone etc.
But kids will be kids and they are very resiliant.
My suggestion is notify the parents in private under appropriate circumstances. The parents are resposible for their children and most certainly help "defuse" the situation. Time usually heals all wounds.
I hope the child is correctable.

tkdcanada

10-06-2003, 15:53

In this case, the parents just made the situation worse. However, for now, the situation has settled down.

johenora

10-06-2003, 17:29

That could be a major problem in the future. Parents can be the fuse.
This is why I suggested the interview in private. In public it could have gotten really out-of-hand.This sometimes happens.
Have you seen the movie MAMBO ITALIANO?
Depicts all kinds of parents and kids. Made in Canada. Great music--if you like Italian music.Also some of the scenes and songs are super funny.It's a comedy. I do not know the rating. I would say for adults only!

tkdcanada

10-06-2003, 18:59

If it's made in Canada, it's probably a really bad, low budget movie! LOL!

I know what you mean about parents being the fuse. I choose to not get involved unless I really, really have to. I don't deal well with having someone in my face. Funny how mean you can get when it comes to protecting your kids.

johenora

10-07-2003, 04:02

The movie was funny and enjoyable. Not bad even if low budget.
Some people are tough to deal with--like customers. What is the saying?The customer is always right.
Brava to you.

wingchundo.girl

07-09-2004, 16:58

Self Defense means not allowing anyone to hurt you. Physcially or mentally. We role play verbal abuse from other children and how to respond, and talk about the psychology of verbal and mental abuse. Put in simple terms, children can really grasp these concepts. At our school, we teach children the JOY of blocking. I mean blocking everything that comes within their body line. It's amazing the growth in their self esteem when they realize, that if they don't want someone to touch them, they can't.

Dawn, a 9 year old, was bullied everyday after school by a neighbor girl down the street. Everyday this girl would come down and harass Dawn until the bully worked herself up to hitting Dawn. It got to the point that Dawn's mother finally gave her permission to hit back. But Dawn wouldn't do it. She had been taught you don't hit people, so she wouldn't do it. She did everything we taught her, try talking your way out, try walking away, tell a teacher or an adult. And if that doesn't work, defend yourself.

One day while Dawn's mom watched from the window, the bully came to harass Dawn. She finally swung on Dawn to slap her. To her amazement, Dawn blocked the slap, then blocked the punch, then blocked the second slap, blocked a second punch, until the girl screamed, "Why won't you let me hit you?"

You can't imagined how proud her Mom was and how empowered Dawn was. She didn't need to hit anyone to defend herself. She stuck to her prinicples that striking someone was wrong. Of course, she was never bothered again by this bully.

This same story has happened many times with our students. Ricky's cousin was always hitting him and bullying him. Although Ricky's dad was disturbed by this abuse from a family member he always warned Ricky that he shouldn't use his martial arts knowledge to hurt his cousin. But on one holiday when the family was gathered together, Ricky's Dad saw it coming. He was about to call out to his son, but something amazing happened. Ricky blocked, and blocked, and blocked, never throwing a punch in return. He was so proud. Ricky later told his Dad, "I knew he couldn't hit me, why should I hit him?"

Knowing that you can stop someone from hurting you can be very powerful. Blocking drills are great. Self confidence and self esteem rise to a level that is visible to other people and usually that is the last time a bully picks out your child for abuse.

.

wab25

07-09-2004, 18:00

===========
When Sgathak commented on the fun implications that teaching avoidance = winning can have later in life, I think (if I'm not mistaken) that he was just trying to say that a person who is brought up to continuously avoid unpleasant situations or experiences ends up later being a person who is completely unable to cope with any kind of stress or unpleasant situation - and we all know, that no one can successfully go through their whole life avoiding this. Therefore, this person would be a basket case and virtual liability to society.
===========

That is a very narrow way of looking at things. I recognise that most people here feel like they have failed if they walk away from a fight or challenge. Ok, maybe not "failed," but like they have "not been true to themselves," or that "it would negatively effect my self confidence."

The first thing to change is that attitude. I have walked away, run away and avoided many fights. Everytime, it worked. I don't feel like a failure, I have plenty of self confidence, in fact, I feel like I won. I didn't have to go to a hospital, explain to the cops or the parents, I didn't have any black eye or painful ribs they next day....

The truth is that 99% of the fights that most people get into are for nothing but ego. These 99% of fights, can and should be walked away from. This is especially true of most school yard fights, if they can't be walked away from, take another route. You never know if the kid will pull a gun after you block all his hits. Maybe he will be there the next day, black eye and all, with a knife or gun and a few buddies. ( read the news papers, it happens quite frequently these days )

Yes, I admit that having so little self confidence that you live in continual fear is a bad thing. Yes, you have to learn to face stress and unpleasant situations. But, I also believe that having so little self confidence that you have to prove to every one that you can kick their @$$, is not very good either. In fact, true self confidence is being so secure that you don't care what they think about your ability to kick their @$$.

Normally, I wouldn't care what you guys think, if you want to keep picking fights, I mean, proving yourself when you are challenged, fine, I say go for it. But do it with the knowlege that somewhere out there is someone better than you, luckier than you or carrying a gun. What I object to, is teaching children to do the same, and calling it "self defense." If you want to teach your kid to be a bully, by beating up all the other bullies, fine. But, don't call it "self defense." "Self defense," is about not getting hurt or killed, it is not about looking cool. ( don't we all say that about the McDojos? ) Walking away, running away and avoiding are the safest by far, than trading blows with someone. And don't forget the mental part. If your self confidence, self worth or identity is so wrapped up in whose @$$ you can kick, or who can whoop your @$$, then you have a problem with your self image. And kicking the crap out of someone is not going to help that problem, even if they asked for it. There is a lot more to a person than who they can whoop.

tkdcanada

07-09-2004, 18:36

Where did that come from?! That quote regarding Sgathak's comments was posted by me...........about 9 months ago.......looooong dead.
And...I started the thread which was never about PROVING yourself and who's butt you can kick and I am very sure I made that clear and I am also very sure that no one else implied that proving that you can kick butt is necessary. Avoidance IS the way to go. But....it only works all the time in a perfect world - which we don't have. I don't know where you get that people were encouraging about looking cool, picking fights, beating up all the bullies. :confused: Much of what you say is right on and I agree completely such as there is a lot more to a person that who they can whoop, etc...but no one can sail through life being a pacifist all the time.

Oz82

07-09-2004, 20:28

When you get sucked into a fight that the other guy wants, on his terms, you are not in control. By not making yourself a target, by using your surroundings you are in control.

I respect your viewpoint, but it's not always going to work. It's a perfect way to start out though.

However, I will not ask my sons to live their lives constantly looking over their shoulder. I have discussed this with them extensively, and we have worked out through roleplaying and other methods how to handle the situation. It follows;

They start out your way, and unless they don't have a choice, they avoid any contact at all. A supervisory adult that they respect is confidentially advised of the situation at this point, but the boys let them know that they have it in hand, and no assisstance is necessary. This keeps them from being retargeted as a "snitch", and it establishes their position with an authority figure. If it stops here, then great! If it escalates, they proceed to the next step.

After either a long period of harrassment, threat of violence, or actual attempts at violence, they clearly and calmly advise the bully that his actions are not acceptable, will not be tolerated, and must stop. At this point, the supervisory adult is apprised that it has gotten serious, and their assistance is needed. Again, if it stops here, then great! If it doesn't, they proceed to the next step.

Someone who will not stop himself must be stopped by someone else. Unfortunately, adults will not be present and available in all situations and places, so I am completely OK, at this point, with having my sons (or anyone else) defend themselves in any way they can. Thankfully, they have learned their hapkido wristlocks well, and can usually cause someone enough pain that they reconsider whether they really wanted to fight after all. They also restate the limits they raised earlier, and reinforce it by saying that they will enforce those limits personally and without remorse for what they might do. At the risk of being repetitive, if it stops here, then great! If it doesn't, they proceed to the next step.

That next step, which neither of them have had to go to yet (thankfully), is to break the offending person. The person must be beaten in a way that takes the fight out of them. If you do it now, they will learn the lesson on a playground with a busted lip and severely sprained fingers, wrists, elbows, and shoulders. If you allow the childhood bully to continue in his pattern until adulthood, we as a society will either be burying him or paying for his keep behind bars.

This actually takes selfish "ego" out of the picture, since the responses are all measured and appropriate to the situation at hand, not emotional reactions to insult. It also takes patience and emotional control, which is one reason that it is easier for my oldest son. So far it has worked like a charm, with the one exception of the time my youngest lost it and rocketed to the last step without passing "go". (This was prior to his joining the dojo.) He was disciplined, has learned his lesson, and it hasn't been repeated, even under extreme duress.

At the heart of this is the idea of limits. I will never deny anyone the right to throw a punch, unless they insist that it connect with my nose. I will never deny anyone the right to own and shoot a weapon, unless they are intent on using it to perforate me. In each of these instances, I will neutralize the threat to my person using the methods that I know will work and leave me alive. If that is running, then so be it. Unfortunately, that isn't always the best option. Sometimes, it's not an option at all.

tkdcanada

07-09-2004, 20:44

Wow! Great post! :bow:

wab25

07-10-2004, 01:13

=========
The person must be beaten in a way that takes the fight out of them. If you do it now, they will learn the lesson on a playground with a busted lip and severely sprained fingers, wrists, elbows, and shoulders. If you allow the childhood bully to continue in his pattern until adulthood, we as a society will either be burying him or paying for his keep behind bars.
=========

This is not "self defence." This is vigilantism. You become the bully. Just because you know how to break someone's arm, does not mean that you have the right or obligation to clean up societies mess. Most kids ( and people for that matter ) don't have the where with all to correctly assess who is worthy of being broken and corrected.

Furthermore, by staying around, you put yourself at risk. First, you never know when you will meet the guy who can break you, without remorse even. Second, you never know which guy will pull the gun or knife. Third, you never know when or how they will retailiate against you.

Let me restate, in 99% of the situations you can just walk away. Swallow your ego, and your pride, and walk away. In the other cases, where you can't walk away, you should be running away. If someone grabs you, do whatever it takes to get to the point where you can run, then run. If someone is far enough away to be hit, or to throw a punch that you can block, you should be running.

You don't have to live life looking over your shoulder. ( if you break too many bullies, you might, cause they will all want to get you back for it, and hope they aren't part of a gang ) But, you should be aware of your surroundings. Isn't that something we practice in our training? I think that is the most important thing we practice. Good awareness will keep us very far away from danger in most cases.

Instead of this long stand off, waiting for the other guy to back down, back down and walk away yourself. No snitch, nobody gets hurt, nobody wants revenge..... When you see that kid who took your lunch money yesterday, don't walk by him again, chances are he wants todays lunch money. The best weapon for self defense is your head. Use it. Don't put yourself in danger. When you find yourself in danger, leave. Leave as fast as possible. Yes, do whatever, break whatever it takes, but leave as soon as possible. ( most of the time you can turn and walk away before anything ever starts ) We need to teach kids to be self confident enough to back down, and let things go without feeling like a failure. Being truely self confident means letting the little things go. Most of the time, its just not worth it.

Oz82

07-11-2004, 00:27

This is not "self defence." This is vigilantism. You become the bully. Just because you know how to break someone's arm, does not mean that you have the right or obligation to clean up societies mess.
I respectfully and totally disagree. You're ignoring all that goes before and are jumping on the last step. This is only reached after all other avenues, including the one you advocate, have been exhausted. By this time it is established that the bully will not change his behaviour himself.

Remember, neither one has found it necessary to take it to this level. However, they need to be ready to do so, and be confident that they can.

And they aren't trying clean up "society", just a 5th or 4th grade classroom or playground.

Most kids ( and people for that matter ) don't have the where with all to correctly assess who is worthy of being broken and corrected.
I didn't say that this is how all kids should do it; I only talked about how mine do it, and it has been quite successful. Note again that they have not yet had to use the last option; the situation usually gets resolved long before.

I think anyone, of any age, should be able to establish what is right and wrong when it comes to his or her own person. If they don't have the necessary courage or moral fortitude, then they have problems that this thread isn't addressing.

Furthermore, by staying around, you put yourself at risk. First, you never know when you will meet the guy who can break you, without remorse even. Second, you never know which guy will pull the gun or knife. Third, you never know when or how they will retailiate against you.

This is a school playground or classroom. The "staying around" part is state mandated.

The gun or knife thing is possible, but not likely. And retaliation is also possible, but also not likely, since a bully's psychology is such that the weak are targeted. They tend to avoid anyone who establishes and enforces limits in a forceful way.

Not to sound like a brag, but my sons are quite good at what they would be using to defuse the situation, and at least as strong, if not stronger, as anyone in their peer group. The method outlined above does NOT apply to people outside their peer group; that's not what this thread is addressing.

Let me restate, in 99% of the situations you can just walk away. Swallow your ego, and your pride, and walk away. In the other cases, where you can't walk away, you should be running away. If someone grabs you, do whatever it takes to get to the point where you can run, then run. If someone is far enough away to be hit, or to throw a punch that you can block, you should be running.
Again, the staying around part is state law.

Instead of this long stand off, waiting for the other guy to back down, back down and walk away yourself.
See step one. They do this. Often.

No snitch, nobody gets hurt, nobody wants revenge..... When you see that kid who took your lunch money yesterday, don't walk by him again, chances are he wants todays lunch money.
Bullys don't want lunch money; they want affirmation and are not emotionally mature enough to know how to get it in healthy ways. The school my boys go to bills the parents for lunches in advance, and no money is carried to school. Bullying still happens at the same rate as any other school.

And again, when you're stuck in class with the person, there is no "walking away" or avoiding. Doing that too much is counterproductive anyway; you'll just be targeted all the more because they see you as weak and an easy target, and walking or running away becomes all that you do.

We need to teach kids to be self confident enough to back down, and let things go without feeling like a failure. Being truely self confident means letting the little things go. Most of the time, its just not worth it.
I refer you back to steps one and two. I think you are discounting the self confidence and moral maturity that they have learned and are exercising daily in these two steps. And no, they don't feel like failures; they feel empowered that they didn't have to fight. I totally agree with the benefits of the method you're advocating, but I don't agree that it will always work.

Your method's validity is affirmed most (thumbnail guess? I'd say 80-85%) of the time, and nothing else is necessary. The next steps are there for the times that it isn't.

Ewok85

07-11-2004, 06:09

I'm just 2 years out of high school. Since primary school I've always been the youngest person in my grade, often about a year younger than everyone else. This made me an easy target for bullies, but not until high school. In primary school alot of the older kids knew me and looked after me, but when I went to high school I only knew 2 people from my school.

High School... it wasn't exactly fun, I've got plenty of good memories but it was a rocky start. Being pretty young, short and shy I tended to keep out of the way and read alot. I had some people come to me and befriend me, and I'm still clsoe with them now. I also had some people decide I was a soft target. Verbal abuse has 0 impact on me, you can shout yourself blue in the face and I dont care, only my mates can make me blush or boil. Over the first 3 years I just ignored whatever happened, walked away etc. I had things stolen, burned, vadalised, broken and destroyed. I had my rigth scaphoid broken when an older kid pushed me off a 2m ledge.

Counselling had no effect, suspension of the bullies had no effect, the 'ignore it and it'll go away' idea had no effect, if anything they get bored and stepped it up. My main concern is that its becoming increasingly popular to carry small switchblade knives for 'protection'. I havn't seen a schoolyard fight get any worse than two people right in each others faces shouting abuse, mainly because they lack the confiedence to take the other person on (as they know as well as the other person they have the forementioned knives).

The upside is things sorted themselves out in year10 when I took some year11 classes and made some good friends who sorted the bullies out, basically "he's with us, mess with him, you mess with us". Much appreciated!

jruner

07-11-2004, 13:58

Running is great you get away unharmed and harm nobody! I ran from a group in Junior HighSchool(years ago!) and was berated by my step father. It made me mad that he thought I should of let myself be beaten by a group of six or seven bullies just so they would not think I was a chicken! Chickens live longer and don't go to jail for beating the tar out of somebody!

A few years afterwards I became a volunteer Emergency Medical Technician in HighSchool and those same bullies all let me know they respected me for not needing to prove myself through violence! They even said that if they had not been so violent in junior high they would have been a lot happier.

I was shocked because until then I always thought they looked down on me because of my physical disabilities. My children are taught to only defend never attack and ALWAYS RUN! I have defended myself using thows and arm locks in security work but I have so far never hit any one other than sparring and feel very lucky.

John Runer

Paul B

07-11-2004, 14:25

I have to admit,I have been hopping around this one....it raises all sorts of moral and ethical questions, not to mention the maturity factors of people involved. There is a lot of "gray" area to be dealt with. After taken all these factors into consideration,the first and best of these options is to thank the bully for their "opinion",and walk away.I'm sure everyone knows the old saying about opinions,so no need to delve deeper..That's what I try to focus on,when dealing with matters like these,the problem is people take either themselves or other people's views of them way too seriously,and let their ego get in the way of their perception of handling a verbal attack.There is a little saying that goes with this...no touch=no fight. While keeping with the rules of avoidance and escalation of force.That's my 2c's.

Best Regards,

Paul Bladen

tkdcanada

07-11-2004, 15:56

Agreed about the gray areas and I was too close to the situation as my tolerance of the situation was slowly reaching it's limit which is why I started this thread. The kid is no threat but just a royal pain in the butt (still to this day) for no reason other than maybe jealousy, lack of self-confidence, who knows. I was tired of watching my son being harrassed by him (although he always maintained his composure and never "lost it" despite the kid doing his best to escalate things by pushing him down, insulting him, etc...) and I was just so tempted to tell him to let the kid have it (but didn't feel good about that because it's not how I raise my kids), although I didn't really see any other answer. My husband got fed up one day and ended up going to their house and since then, he still hangs around but is much more subtle. His house is up for sale and he'll be moving (jumps up and down)

jruner

07-11-2004, 23:03

I am glad to hear about the move! I hope this will be the last situation of this type you have to deal with! Currently we a lot of very young very destructive kids in our neighborhood and the police will not even talk to the parents. In time I hope my problem too will move out of the area until then I just wait and pray.

Good Luck to you and your family.
John Runer

Gae-Bek

07-12-2004, 08:40

I can't believe that this thread has been running as long as it has, and that I have never noticed it until now.

I grew-up being bullied from Middle School all they way into High School. Over that time, I put up with a lot of verbal and occasional physical abuse.

What amazed me, is how these kids would continue to get away with it (not only what was done to me, but to other kids, as well). Letting a teacher know generally accomplished nothing...if anything, it made it worse. Hell, even calling the police did little. For some reason people of "authority" who deal with children have very little desire to interfere with the whole pecking-order-establishment that goes on. So I learned that if I wanted to be left alone, I would need to do something about it myself...nobody was going to do it for me.

Anyway, by the end of 7th grade, I'd had enough (after being spit-on by 6 or 7 people one morning) and I challenged the "ring-leader" to a fight. After school that day, with almost all of the kids in our grade watching, I squared-off with this guy and got one shot in...before the cops came. Everyone ran, scattering around the park in such a way that the police couldn't make heads or tails of what was going on. After that day, I never had another problem [with those kids] for the rest of Middle School. It wasn't so much that my one shot did any significant damage, but the fact that I showed resolve and the will to fight that did it.

Remember, bullies aren't looking for a fight...they're looking for someone to push-around. Once you show them that you won't let yourself be pushed-around, and that you're willing to fight (if pressed), they steer clear of you.

Hope everything works-out well,

tkdcanada

07-12-2004, 10:04

Aaron,

Sadly enough, your former situation is all too common about adults and people in authority not wanting to interfere with pecking order. I teach in middle school and I see it and hate it and refuse to follow suit. I also realize how difficult it makes it for the bullied person to tell someone because it makes things get worse, so I take it upon myself to watch and immediately let the bullies know that I see everything (without drawing attention to the bullied person). It may not help all the time, but at least I know that I'm not putting on blinders and leaving the poor bullied kid feeling completely alone. As a teacher, you quickly get to know your students and as of the first few days it's very easy to pick out who is likely to start trouble, who is likely to be targetted and who just blends in. (These are three prominent groups I've noticed and I've always told my kids it's best to be in the category that blends in since you can successfully interact with both sides and there are no expectations to conform to either group).

I completely agree that bullies aren't looking fora fight. They want someone they can push around and you have to be willing to show that you won't be pushed around and if that means being physical, then so be it. There is a difference between teaching your kids to be fighters and teaching them to stand up for themselves and if you do it properly, they know the difference. Another very irritating thing I've seen in schools is the tendency for the bullied person to suffer consequences when they finally retaliate. :mad: Why is it that all of a sudden the situation gets noticed then? :confused:
Then the authorities try to send the person who retaliated to "anger management classes" or something. Ridiculous. I've been in the office many times defending a student who retaliated and I told my own kids that if they ever retaliate that I don't care what the school says, they will never be in trouble at home (as long as they have done everything else reasonably possible to handle the situation and retaliation is a last, last resort).

Erik

07-13-2004, 14:46

I had problems 'til I was 15 and I broke a guy's arm (unfortunately not the bully's) in a wrestling match. Poor guy's right elbow hyperextended all the way around an extra 90+ degrees. I felt horrible and did not wrestle the next year.

Nobody has ever bothered me since.

I agree - just fight the bully. Usually doesn't matter if you win or not - you just show that you'll fight and you win respect, which will get you pretty far in life.

wab25

07-13-2004, 15:43

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I respectfully and totally disagree. You're ignoring all that goes before and are jumping on the last step. This is only reached after all other avenues, including the one you advocate, have been exhausted. By this time it is established that the bully will not change his behaviour himself.

Remember, neither one has found it necessary to take it to this level. However, they need to be ready to do so, and be confident that they can.
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The part I object to is STAYING AROUND LONG ENOUGH TO TAKE ALL YOUR STEPS. First, if you can see that it will be a problem, go somewhere else. ( if he pushed you, hit you, took your lunch money, called you a name yesterday, expect the same today, use a different route ) It is not your responsibility to change his behavior. Walk away, run away. If he is far enough away to hit you, you should be running. If he grabs you, escape, by whatever means necessary and run. ( by escape, I mean break his grip and run)

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And they aren't trying clean up "society", just a 5th or 4th grade classroom or playground.
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That is the vigilantism I am talking about. Its not you or your childs job to clean up a classroom. Thats, the teachers job or the yard duty persons job. You or your child is putting themselves at risk to do something they have no right to do.

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This is a school playground or classroom. The "staying around" part is state mandated.
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If this happens in a classroom, the teacher needs to be fired. Have a conference with the teacher and principal, report it to the school board or just call the cops for neglect.

The last time I was on a school playground, it was big enough that I didn't have to stand within arms reach of anyone I didn't want to.

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The gun or knife thing is possible, but not likely. And retaliation is also possible, but also not likely, since a bully's psychology is such that the weak are targeted. They tend to avoid anyone who establishes and enforces limits in a forceful way.
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You are fooling yourself, to your own, and your childrens own, detriment. Guns and knives are more likely every single day. Read a few newspapers.

Also, try meeting a bully. Yes, they do pick on the weakest, but they need to look like the strongest. If you beat up the bully, you take his whole identity away from him. Their main goal in life from that point on will be to make sure that everyone knows that you got lucky.

You are also ignoring gangs. Where I live, it is quite common for gang members to hang out. They like to start things with people. They insult you, your family, they will even try to push you around a bit. If you respond back, you will get a "warning." They define a "warning" as surrounding you in your car with baseball bats. They dent your car severely and break out all your windows and lights. They may even slash your tires, all while you are in the car. ( remember, if you hit one with your car, it assault with a deadly weapon and possibly attempted murder ) The next time, after the warning, they drag you out of the car and put you in the hospital or worse.

This same mentality is in all the highschools and junior highschools around here. I am a Boy Scout Leader here, and know many youth. If they do as is being suggested here, the gang to which the bully belongs, will come after them, and their families ( brothers/sisters ). They had better be ready for multiple attackers all with weapons, up to and including guns.

In 99% of the cases, it is NOT worth it. Walk away. Learn to be aware of what is going on around you, and steer clear.

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I had problems 'til I was 15 and I broke a guy's arm (unfortunately not the bully's) in a wrestling match. Poor guy's right elbow hyperextended all the way around an extra 90+ degrees. I felt horrible and did not wrestle the next year.

Nobody has ever bothered me since.

I agree - just fight the bully. Usually doesn't matter if you win or not - you just show that you'll fight and you win respect, which will get you pretty far in life.
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This is a perfect example of the attitude that gets me so excited. If you have this attitude, here where I live, you won't live to long. The "respect" you get from fighting, is not respect at all, and I sure wouldn't put my life on the line for it.

What I am advocating is self defense. First and foremost, STAY OUT OF BAD SITUATIONS. To that end, be aware of your surroundings and use alternate routes to avoid danger. Second, WALK AWAY. Third, RUN AWAY. The only way they can stop you from running away, is by grabbing you, then break the hold and run. ( do whatever you have to to break the hold, but don't stick around ) Establishing yourself as an authority figuire, as Oz82 suggests, gets you hurt. Fighting the bully as Erik suggests, can very likely lead to your death by gang attack in many places. Leave the vigilante work to the police. ( we pay them to do that stuff, they are trained, have the equipment and the law, and frankly do a pretty darn good job of it when we stay out of the way. Call them, they would be more than happy to help )

Erik

07-13-2004, 18:49

This is a perfect example of the attitude that gets me so excited. If you have this attitude, here where I live, you won't live to long. The "respect" you get from fighting, is not respect at all, and I sure wouldn't put my life on the line for it.

What I am advocating is self defense. First and foremost, STAY OUT OF BAD SITUATIONS. To that end, be aware of your surroundings and use alternate routes to avoid danger. Second, WALK AWAY. Third, RUN AWAY.

Okay, yes, this comes first, getting the hell out of Dodge. Sorry. I had figured that went without saying.

And gangs are a whole lot different, this is true. We did not have them where I grew up (thank God).

Oz82

07-14-2004, 19:14

The part I object to is STAYING AROUND LONG ENOUGH TO TAKE ALL YOUR STEPS. First, if you can see that it will be a problem, go somewhere else. ( if he pushed you, hit you, took your lunch money, called you a name yesterday, expect the same today, use a different route ) It is not your responsibility to change his behavior. Walk away, run away. If he is far enough away to hit you, you should be running. If he grabs you, escape, by whatever means necessary and run. ( by escape, I mean break his grip and run)
The impracticality of your scenario stuns me, and I think you're reaching now. A school year runs from August to May; how many of those days should I allow my sons to stay home because of bullying? (By the way, after the fourth or fifth day, I am subject to arrest, not to mention loss of custody rights.) Staying home would be the ONLY way to not come into repeated daily, if not hourly, contact with someone in their class. Again, continued ESCAPE is not an option. There must be something else to draw from.

That is the vigilantism I am talking about. Its not you or your childs job to clean up a classroom. Thats, the teachers job or the yard duty persons job. You or your child is putting themselves at risk to do something they have no right to do.
The teacher's job is to teach. I expect them to keep order, but policing the class shouldn't be a major part of what they do. If a group of kids can set their own standards of behavior and self-police through peer pressure, the learning environment is greatly enhanced. Besides, and I think tkdcanada can attest to this as well, a teacher cannot know all of what's going on. Bullies rarely do their thing openly, and even more rarely 'fess up to having done it when it's reported.

If this happens in a classroom, the teacher needs to be fired. Have a conference with the teacher and principal, report it to the school board or just call the cops for neglect.
It happens in EVERY classroom. We're short on teachers as it is, so let's not go tossing them to the curb now for what has gone on and will continue to go on for eons.

Again, conferences with teachers and principals sound good, but like I said earlier, you'll be hard pressed to get a bully to own up to what he's doing. Refer back to how tkd's neighbor behaved when she was made aware of what her son was doing; that's VERY common behavior for parents of bullies! This makes for an extremely tense conference, and the administrators will usually side with the parent who is most on-edge just to have peace. That parent is usually the parent of the bully.

I have been threatened physically by other parents in the parking lot following such conferences. This makes your theory, which purports to reduce such occurrences, come up a little short, at least to me.

The last time I was on a school playground, it was big enough that I didn't have to stand within arms reach of anyone I didn't want to.
Was it big enough that someone could run all period long and stay away from someone else? When you say "run", do you realize that the other person can run too? From a distance, a victim running from a bully just looks like a game of tag.

You are fooling yourself, to your own, and your childrens own, detriment. Guns and knives are more likely every single day. Read a few newspapers.
The fact that incidents still make the news is testament to their infrequency. To date, there have been no gun or knife seizures from any student in my sons' school, except for pocket knives, which are almost as common as pockets in this area. When I was in school there were surprise canine searches of vehicles in the parking lots for drugs. When the deputy saw the usual shotgun, pistol, or rifle (usually hung in the back window), his only comment was “nice gun”. We never worried in the slightest about gun violence in the schools.

Investigation of weapon usage in school settings shows that it is predominately the victims of bullying and exclusion who "go off". These are the ones who got tired of running, but didn't have any other plan.

Also, try meeting a bully. Yes, they do pick on the weakest, but they need to look like the strongest. If you beat up the bully, you take his whole identity away from him. Their main goal in life from that point on will be to make sure that everyone knows that you got lucky.
I've met several. The worst bully I had in elementary school became a good friend in junior high. He says that he learned his lesson the day I took him up on his threats and whipped him. I'm only sorry I waited as long as I did.

I've also taken classes on the subject; general psychology and an elementary education class that dealt with the subject in depth. In study after study, continued evasion only emboldened a bully, and the behavior escalates. They want to find the point at which you respond by fighting back, and since no one has successfully fought them, they have a false sense of security that you won't be successful either. In the same studies it was shown that positive peer pressure along with negative reactions, including fighting back, even if not "successful", from the victims worked faster and more consistently than action from authority figures.

When a bully learns from his peers that his actions are not approved of and might just get him hurt, he looks for other ways to get his affirmation. Remember, the common bully is only looking for affirmation that he isn't getting from other sources, and does not have the emotional or moral maturity to get it in healthier ways.

You are also ignoring gangs. Where I live, it is quite common for gang members to hang out. They like to start things with people. They insult you, your family, they will even try to push you around a bit. If you respond back, you will get a "warning." They define a "warning" as surrounding you in your car with baseball bats. They dent your car severely and break out all your windows and lights. They may even slash your tires, all while you are in the car. ( remember, if you hit one with your car, it assault with a deadly weapon and possibly attempted murder ) The next time, after the warning, they drag you out of the car and put you in the hospital or worse.
We don't have gang activity. We as a local society don't allow it. Our police and deputies are well informed of any nascent activity and it is squelched quite well. Also, I'd posit that if anyone around here was approached by bat wielding thugs, especially in their cars, there would be a couple fewer thugs and a few less rounds in the car owner's pistol. Since that's common knowledge, the activity you speak of isn't common.

We had some people in school who were wearing "colors" when I was young. They quit when they kept having their colors ripped off and their lives made miserable. If you want to cry about "vigilantism", then go ahead. However, I wouldn't trade neighborhoods with you. I haven't had to run from anyone in years, especially not on my own property.

Establishing yourself as an authority figuire, as Oz82 suggests, gets you hurt. Fighting the bully as Erik suggests, can very likely lead to your death by gang attack in many places. Leave the vigilante work to the police. ( we pay them to do that stuff, they are trained, have the equipment and the law, and frankly do a pretty darn good job of it when we stay out of the way. Call them, they would be more than happy to help )
Actually, if I suggested to one of the local deputies, many of whom I'm friendly with, that my ten year old son needed police protection from another ten year old, they'd laugh, and rightly so. If I was someone from the general public, they'd have to do some investigation, but it would be a huge waste of their time and a mockery of the justice system.

I'm surprised that you would consider that having authority over what happens to your own person equates with vigilantism, or like you suggested a few posts back, bullying itself. When, in your mind, does that 1% come into play, and just how violated does your own person have to be to reach it?

I think you're getting grade-A primary school bullying mixed up with gang related criminal behavior, and it's just not the same. The first is a matter for the individuals involved and the school they attend to settle. The second is a criminal matter that society as a whole should cooperate with the police to eradicate or prevent from starting in the first place, and not at all the intended subject of this thread.

tkdcanada

07-14-2004, 21:35

Bryan makes so many good points. Yes, there is a huge difference between grade school bullies and gangs. Here, we are talking about the former, not the latter.

The point about vigilantiism is excellent. I will never accept maintaining control over what happens to me as vigilantiism. If I am backed into a corner and no peaceful solution works, I will fight rather than "flight." On the other hand, butting in on another person's situation and taking things into your own hands is different and THAT is vigilantiism and that subject is a whole other post since I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing in all cases.

Finally, regarding teachers and the classroom .......

As Bryan indicated, teachers are NOT superhumans who can foresee and prevent every situation that may occur. Get real! Things do and will happen in the classroom and not only when teachers are not doing their job. The teacher doesn't have eyes all the way around her head and often the best efforts don't work. Trust me! A teacher without support is powerless. If there isn't accountability at home or if discipline isn't consistent within the school, then you may as well beat your head against the wall. Bullies are the way they are because they weren't taught respect for others and consequences for their actions and a teacher can't just all of a suddent instill that at age ten or fourteen or whatever. If you want to fire every teacher who has had a class go haywire, you will be firing a lot of teachers!

Anyway.....thank you Bryan for saying what I have been trying to say and more. :bow:

wab25

07-15-2004, 11:19

I have to respectfully disagree.

First off, I accept the point that gangs are different than school yard bullies. However, in many schools, the bully is a member of a gang. If gangs are not in your schools yet, I really hope you can keep it that way. I grew up in a very small farming community. My entire highschool had 300 students in it. ( thats all 4 years totaled 300 students, not 300 per class ) I was always taught to walk away. I have even walked out of corners. Now that I have moved away, to this new area, that is gang infested, the same skills work. Many of the kids I new who stood their ground, also moved away from the little farming community, and got put in the hospital or killed for standing up again. One guy got knifed to death in taco bell because someone said something about him he didn't like, so he stood up for himself. It wasn't till he was dead on the floor that he realized that it was a knife fight, not a fist fight, this was after all a small farming community. Today, when people move into the area, you can tell which were taught to never back down, or stand up to the bully, they are the ones who have all the problems with the gangs.

Maybe I am a little caulous, but I really don't care if your kid comes home from school with a bloody lip or black eye. I don't care if he gave someone else one either. What I care about is the attitude and habits that he is being taught. Someday, he will be confronted with someone else, who pushes, shoves, bumps, trips, threatens..... and it will be the wrong time to stand up against it. The trick is that you never know its the wrong time, till its too late. Having seen it happen to my friends, and to many other people around me, I would save your kids from that. If you are worried about self esteem, self worth.... beating the tar out of a bully won't help.

Oh, and about the authority thing... By leaving at the first opportunity, you are exercising your authority over your own life. You are choosing NOT to fight and you are demonstrating that no one can make you fight. ( isn't that what the bully does, tries to make you fight, heck he even chooses the time and place.... tactically even, you shouldn't be fighting as you want to be the one to determine when and where ) You are the authority over your own life, because you are choosing to live, and to value your own safety. It does mean letting go a little pride and ego though.

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The impracticality of your scenario stuns me, and I think you're reaching now. A school year runs from August to May; how many of those days should I allow my sons to stay home because of bullying? (By the way, after the fourth or fifth day, I am subject to arrest, not to mention loss of custody rights.) Staying home would be the ONLY way to not come into repeated daily, if not hourly, contact with someone in their class. Again, continued ESCAPE is not an option. There must be something else to draw from.
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I never said to stay home from school. I said to take a different route to class. Go with a different group of people. Use the other door. For all your experience with bullies, you should realize that a bullies pattern is very easy to establish. After the first encounter, you know where they will be at that same time tomorrow. Just casually be somewhere else at that time tomorrow.

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The teacher's job is to teach. I expect them to keep order, but policing the class shouldn't be a major part of what they do. If a group of kids can set their own standards of behavior and self-police through peer pressure, the learning environment is greatly enhanced. Besides, and I think tkdcanada can attest to this as well, a teacher cannot know all of what's going on. Bullies rarely do their thing openly, and even more rarely 'fess up to having done it when it's reported.
....

It happens in EVERY classroom. We're short on teachers as it is, so let's not go tossing them to the curb now for what has gone on and will continue to go on for eons.
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Weren't we talking about situations where there was no other choice but to fight? If a teacher is allowing a situation to occur, in her classroom, where one student MUST fight to protect himself, there is a BIG problem. If it happens on a regular basis, then yes, toss her to the curb. Yes, I realize that I am saying you should not agree to meet him outside the class, and that verbal taunts should not warrant a fight.

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Was it big enough that someone could run all period long and stay away from someone else? When you say "run", do you realize that the other person can run too? From a distance, a victim running from a bully just looks like a game of tag.
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You have to think here, run towards the yard duty person. Stay near that person. The bully most likely won't physically attack you in their presence. If they do, it is the yard duty persons responsibility to stop it. And you have a very credible witness.

Besides, most bullies would rather just get the next kid, instead of running all over the yard trying to get you. The only reason he would specifically care that much about you is if you pissed him off or stood up to him before.

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Actually, if I suggested to one of the local deputies, many of whom I'm friendly with, that my ten year old son needed police protection from another ten year old, they'd laugh, and rightly so. If I was someone from the general public, they'd have to do some investigation, but it would be a huge waste of their time and a mockery of the justice system.
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In truth, the police work for you. You pay them. It is their job to protect people, even your ten year old. In fact, I bet that they would rather have you talk to them about it before turning your kid loose on the offending bully. I too, know many a law enforcement officer. Usually, if you inform the police about the situation, they can send an officer to the bullies house to have a chat with the parents. It gets their attention. They can do this anonymously if you want. ( meaning they don't tell who snitched ) And if you community has so little crime, the officer should have 5 minutes to spare.

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I'm surprised that you would consider that having authority over what happens to your own person equates with vigilantism, or like you suggested a few posts back, bullying itself. When, in your mind, does that 1% come into play, and just how violated does your own person have to be to reach it?
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Having authority over yourself is fine, in fact I encourage it. It is the part where you have unrightfull authority over someone else that you become a vigilante. Breaking people who deserve breaking, when you could walk away, is vigilantism and bullying, it is exercising an authority that you don't rightfully have.

That 1% is when someone grabs you. If the hit you, walk away. If they push you, walk away. If they kick you, walk away. If they grab you and hold you, then you need to do something. But only do what is necessary to escape. I would even include the situation where a loved one is being physically attacked. If they are not holding you, then they are not preventing you from walking away. The sooner you walk, the less likely you will be in that position, where you have to do something.

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As Bryan indicated, teachers are NOT superhumans who can foresee and prevent every situation that may occur. Get real! Things do and will happen in the classroom and not only when teachers are not doing their job. The teacher doesn't have eyes all the way around her head and often the best efforts don't work. Trust me! A teacher without support is powerless. If there isn't accountability at home or if discipline isn't consistent within the school, then you may as well beat your head against the wall. Bullies are the way they are because they weren't taught respect for others and consequences for their actions and a teacher can't just all of a suddent instill that at age ten or fourteen or whatever. If you want to fire every teacher who has had a class go haywire, you will be firing a lot of teachers!
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As I mentioned before, we are talking about situations where the person is forced to fight. I do hold the teacher accountable for what occurs in her classroom. I expect the teachers to hold the students accountable for their actions. In a classroom, no student should ever be forced to fight. Any teacher allowing that to happen should be guilty of neglegence at least, and fired. I don't expect teachers to be superhuman, but they should be aware of the bully cornering a student and threatening violence in their own classroom, if for no other reason than that it is distracting the students from the lesson.

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Bryan makes so many good points. Yes, there is a huge difference between grade school bullies and gangs. Here, we are talking about the former, not the latter.
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The problem is that so many people handle gangs and criminals they same way they handled the bully. That is a mistake. Especially, because more and more, the bully is the criminal and even gang member. Most of the time people only find out too late that they are not dealing with a bully, but a gang member. Habits are hard to break.

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If I am backed into a corner and no peaceful solution works, I will fight rather than "flight."
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Thats the attitude that keeps people in dangerous situations longer than they need to be. Many times, it gets them hurt. I think we should teach our kids to rather flight than fight. That is my whole point. Most of the time, the fight is over something that is not worth it. As I said before, you can always walk away. The only time you can't, is when they are physically holding you. Then you can do whatever is necessary to break their grip, and then walk away or run away.

Gae-Bek

07-15-2004, 11:46

William,

You can only run from your problems (be it bullies, gang members, whatever) for so long. Eventually they will catch-up with you. Running only succeeds in prolonging the bullying. That, and it teaches [the people whom you run from] that their behavior is acceptable.

By leaving at the first opportunity, you are exercising your authority over your own life. You are choosing NOT to fight and you are demonstrating that no one can make you fight.

Yes, except now you are proving that the bully can make you run, and that he can make you alter your daily habits (choosing different doors, etc...). All you've shown the bully is that he can control you in ways other than making you fight. And by not standing up to him, you give him that control at every encounter.

wab25

07-15-2004, 13:23

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You can only run from your problems (be it bullies, gang members, whatever) for so long. Eventually they will catch-up with you. Running only succeeds in prolonging the bullying. That, and it teaches [the people whom you run from] that their behavior is acceptable.
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Funny, my problems have long since forgot that they were my problem. I simply walked away the first time, no insults, no complaint, no big deal. Then, I made sure there was not a next time. With a little awareness, it does not take much at all to avoid the situation. The bully gets occupied with someone else that is more satisfying to pick on. I can honestly say that I have not actually "run" from a bully or attacker since elementary school. I have however, walked away from quite a few. Remember, I live in the area where the gangs are a big problem now. I have never even had my money taken. Of all the fights I have seen or heard about, not a single fight was about something a rationally thinking person would fight over, certainly not if they knew what the result would be.

I also don't think that their behavior is acceptable. But what gives me the right to change them? I am not a law enforcement officer. If I were to go out and change them, that would be vigilantism. Since, its not my job to change them, since its technically illegal to change them, since it puts my at risk to change them, I choose not to bother. I would rather put my energy into supporting my family. Someone else will come along and change them, be it the police, or someone like you, I will let you guys have all the fun rounding up the bullies and gang members and breaking them all. Changing their behavior is not worth my safety.

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Yes, except now you are proving that the bully can make you run, and that he can make you alter your daily habits (choosing different doors, etc...). All you've shown the bully is that he can control you in ways other than making you fight. And by not standing up to him, you give him that control at every encounter.
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Wrong. The bully does not control me at all because I choose not to fight, or to put myself into a situation where I have to fight. In fact, I have never had to miss out on any activity that I was trying to go to. Never even been late because of keeping my nose clean. Don't think of it as losing. Think of it as out smarting the bully. Then you can keep your all important pride and respect. ( though I don't think much of respect when you have to beat the tar out of people to get it )

nosh276

07-15-2004, 14:03

You made some good points about avoiding the situation, but the fact is, every case is different. I was suspended in the 7th or 8th grade, because a bully, one that had bothered me for many years, even though I never raised a hand to him and always avoided him, punched me in the face. I didn't hit him back, cuss, touch or threaten him in any way. I still got suspended.

jruner

07-15-2004, 21:05

Schools are dictatorships, not democracies! In 12th grade I was sent to school with my mother for a full day! Why? because a teacher said a kid named John flipped her off. This teacher was my moms best friend and helped me prove I was not the kid! I got no apolagy nor did my mother. It stayed on my record. Bullies were ignored until one pulled a 44magnum pistol on the principal! Several of us warned the school he showed us the gun and a large knife, they did not buy it! Now he is jail for murder! He had that gun in school for three years before he showed it to an adult! My eight year old was pushed in the mud and had a brand new winter coat shredded on the playground! The school said kids will be kids.

John Runer

tkdcanada

07-15-2004, 21:46

....I didn't hit him back, cuss, touch or threaten him in any way. I still got suspended.

I see this a lot and it sickens me. For some reason, the schools/authorities find it easier to discipline the one who is most likely to be feel the impact. A bully generally doesn't care much about the consequences, etc... and they are usually repeat offenders. Authorities find it to be too much trouble or something to deal with them so they close their eyes. A fight broke out in my class a couple of months ago...I was standing right there. I was not off somewhere not paying attention or ignoring the escalating situation, I was within two feet, trying to get the offender to settle down while staying within my limits (You can't put your hands on them, you have to watch what you say, etc....) The offender said one thing too much to the other guy, the other guy retaliated and the offender started swinging. Now I had no choice but to put my hands on him to avoid an all out brawl. During this time, in his own defense, the one being harrassed saw an opening and threw one clean punch to the eye. I never saw it coming. He never lost it and after it was over calmly said: "'I've been wanting to do that for a long time." He had been pushed to the limit, took a shot and left it at that. Now I had experience with the offender and I knew that he pushed things to the limit, both with the teacher and the other students. No one ever wanted to be around him, he harassed the girls and none of the guys could stand his offensiveness. I had no choice but to send both boys to the office and guess who would not go - the one who was originally doing the harassing. The one who threw the punch was smart enough to realize he would have to deal with the consequences of deciding to throw a punch and had the dignity to go down and explain his side. Guess who was suspended. Right, the guy who had been pushed to the limit. Believe me, I was in the office making sure they knew he wasn't looking for it. But.....as they say, squeaky wheel gets the grease! I will not in good conscience stand by and watch that. I will do all in my power to stand up for kids I know deserve it.

William, you may think I should have been fired because a fight happened under my authority but all I have to say is: "You spend a day in a middle school and see if you can keep up with the negative, disrespectful attitude that is so prominent everywhere in that age group. (That doesn't mean there aren't a lot of really sweet kids and that's actually what keeps me in the teaching business).

William:

Changing bullies..........no one said to change them but when it affects you, you have EVERY right...if you so choose. Call it what you want.

Beating the tar out of people to get respect......bullies do that. People who are forced to deal with bullies may choose to do that to demand their respect (since the bully obviously doesn't understand anything else). My husband was kicked in the throat in grade 9 by a larger guy, just for kicks. He stood up to him, showed he wasn't afraid, and was never bothered again, by anyone. Yes, you may argue, it could have turned out much worse. Yes, it could have, but people who don't stand up get hurt or killed too. You just can't predict.

Anyway, this is getting quite circular and unless there is anything new to add, which I doubt, I'm just about done.

tkdcanada

07-15-2004, 21:47

John, what does "flipped her off" mean??

nosh276

07-15-2004, 21:51

John, what does "flipped her off" mean??

Most cultures seem to have a similar tradition. The American way is to raise just the middle finger towards someone in distaste. It symbolizes "flipping the bird", and from what I was taught that is a metaphorical bird that points toward heaven, if you flip the bird to someone you're saying, physically, "Go to Hell." I hope I helped.

wab25

07-16-2004, 11:31

=============
William, you may think I should have been fired because a fight happened under my authority but all I have to say is: "You spend a day in a middle school and see if you can keep up with the negative, disrespectful attitude that is so prominent everywhere in that age group. (That doesn't mean there aren't a lot of really sweet kids and that's actually what keeps me in the teaching business).
=============

No, I don't think you should be fired. You were right there trying to stop it. You stepped in when the fight happened. Now, I wasn't there, but from your discription of the event, either boy could have backed down without fighting.

=============
William:

Changing bullies..........no one said to change them but when it affects you, you have EVERY right...if you so choose. Call it what you want.
==============

It is the demanding of that right, the exercizing of that right, that may get you killed or hurt. In terms of self defense, you should not exercise that right because it puts you at a greater risk.

==============
Beating the tar out of people to get respect......bullies do that. People who are forced to deal with bullies may choose to do that to demand their respect (since the bully obviously doesn't understand anything else).
==============

Well, at least we agree on what a bully is. But, when you do the same action as a bully, for the same reason ( demanding respect ) why is it that you don't become the same thing? You are doing exactly the same thing as the bully, for exactly the same reason as the bully.

tkdcanada

07-16-2004, 12:33

Maybe you are doing the same action, but what sets you apart is that the person being bullied is not initiating anything. Most of us work on the premise that others will respect our space and our person and that we will do the same - bullies don't demand respect, they look to feel powerful because they are full of insecurities.

As far as how to deal with that, I think that you and I are just products of very different environments. Yours, as you mentioned is not generally a safe one at the best of times, so you need to plan your actions much more carefully to stay safe. Where I live, I don't even know of any gangs and if there are, they are not well known. We don't have gang violence in the news and we rarely have swarmings, very few problems with weapons, etc.... It's all petty stuff, pretty much. If I was in your environment, I would likely think much differently. The reality is that we CAN assert ourselves here without much fear of being killed - maybe severely beaten, but even that is not a huge problem. I don't live in a perfect community, but our biggest problems here generally are surrounded around domestics and drugs.

Oz82

07-16-2004, 13:23

William,

Like Michleine, I'm about tapped out from this thread, but before I drop the subject, I wanted to let you know that I hold no disrespect for you, and hope you feel the same way about me.

Your environment and mine (and Michleine's, I would guess) are very different. It would be foolish to assume that a specific attitude and behavior pattern serves equally well no matter where you are, and I respect what path you've decided to take. At the same time, I do not intend to adopt or promote that path in my neighborhood. Not meaning any disrespect, but I beleive one of the major reasons that Blount County isn't like your neighborhood is that the majority of us Southern good ol' boys DON'T run from conflict. On the individual level, no one could argue how dangerous that could be better than you have, but as far as a society goes, it's been quite effective.

I'll be thinking of you whenever I'm driving through downtown Birmingham (which I doubt even THAT is as rough as what you've described, but it's significantly closer than what I deal with). If I have to stop, I'm sure your advice will be ringing in my ears. :) :)

I'll see you on another thread someday!

wab25

07-16-2004, 13:31

=========
Maybe you are doing the same action, but what sets you apart is that the person being bullied is not initiating anything.
=========
Once you go from escaping to fighting, you are taking the initiative. You have escaped the bully and are now bullying the bully.

I hope your community stays how it is. I wish that we could all live in such a community. I was unfortunate enough to watch my community grow from one like yours into one with many more problems. I also went to college and got a job near a big city, where the gang problems are pretty substantial. The few larger cities within a 15 min drive of me, give Iraq a good run for its money on the number of US casualties each day.

What gets me so excited about this subject is that kids grow up in communities like yours. They are taught to fight back, to stand up and teach them a lesson. Then the community changes or they go away to school or get a job else where. Unfortunately, places like your community are getting more and more scarce. The one I grew up in has changed now.

9 times out of 10, you can stand up and be alright, even in a big city/gang environment. Its that 1 time that gets you. I have seen far too many people stand up at the wrong time, then have to wake up in a hospital if they are lucky. Nobody knew it was the wrong time till too late. I would rather be safer than sorry. If we are talking self defense, its far better to be safer than sorry.

nosh276

07-16-2004, 13:45

During the school year I traveled to what many consider the most dangerous place in alabama...prichard. ::shudders:: This small town with a population of only 28,633 had some really bad statistics....projected murders, if the population were 100000--> 24 in one year. That's a ton. http://prichard.areaconnect.com/crime1.htm
compare that to mobile, where I live:
http://mobile.areaconnect.com/crime1.htm
Prichard is only 10 minutes, less if traffic isn't bad, from my house.

here's marin county 2002 (adobe reader required) http://justice.hdcdojnet.state.ca.us/cjsc_stats/prof02/21/11.pdf
and mobile county 2000
http://www.fedstats.gov/mapstats/crime/county/01097.html

I'm not trying to belittle your situation. I was just trying to demonstrate that running from the problem doesn't always work in bad areas. I don't walk around my neighborhood at night. My neighbor was robbed last month, during the daytime, my other neighbor, 2 years ago, was robbed, assaulted, and the man tried to rape her (she's 89). I park my car behind my house, and we have a privacy fence. I still lock it, always. I don't feel unsafe where I am, I don't feel threatened. I will, in the daytime, walk all over my area. Yeah, we do have problems, but preventitive measure don't always work.

nosh276

07-16-2004, 13:52

Birmingham, by the way, is worse than both of these (in some ways, better in others), I just found out. They're all terrible, however. http://birminghamal.areaconnect.com/crime1.htm

Oz82

07-16-2004, 14:01

Good wesite, nosh, I've bookmarked it for future reference.

Here's the only Blount County town;
http://oneontaal.areaconnect.com/crime1.htm

Only the Larceny/Thefts are above average, and I'm pretty sure that was a statistical anomaly. The causes (I knew them, and was happy to see them arrested) are now cooling their heels in prison. Even so, that's an area of Blount County that most of us in the outlying areas consider to have "gotten rough". Maybe that gives you an idea of how the rest of the county is!

I'll lock the house up at night and when I leave for more than thirty minutes, but for convenience I leave my car unlocked (and it's not parked inside a fence). I also have an outbuilding that isn't usually locked, also for convenience. Thankfully, I have a nosy (in a good way) neighbor who could probably give a detailed itenerary of all the goings-on in the area. I'm blessed, I know! :D

wab25

07-16-2004, 14:04

So long as you are pointing out how safe Marin County is, look at San Francisco and Oakland. ( places I spend a lot of time ) While Marin County is fairly safe as a whole, I live right in the low income, arm pit of Marin, where all the problems are. Just yesterday, my wife called me at work to tell me she wouldn't be shopping till after I got home, because the sheriffs were out around our apartment looking for someone, with guns drawn. A few weeks ago we just had a severe racial beating just up the street. ( it made local news but not national as it was reverse discrimination ) All the shops across the street from us have been robbed at shotgun point. At least half of the people I know in these apartments have been burgled, some came home with the burgler still inside. People are robbed at knife and gun point quite frequently. I can watch drug deals going down from my balcony. Gangs are a huge problem in every community event that goes on here.

You are right, preventative measures don't always work. Thats one reason I study martial arts. But fighting when you can walk away is foolish. Too many people choose to stay and fight and end up hurt. Read this thread again. Most of the people who argue against me have said, in this thread, something to the effect of "I would rather fight than walk away." Whether its for their self image, their mental health, getting respect, getting authority, cleaning up the place, dealing with societies problems...... it still very probably could lead to hospitalization or death in many areas. Let the cops deal with it.

Oz82

07-16-2004, 14:05

Nosh, did you notice this off to the right of the pages?

CRIME RESOURCES
Home Security
Burglar Alarms
Motion Detectors
Self Defense
Car Alarms
Spy Cameras
Online Casinos

:confused:

I guess if you lose all your money in the online casino, you won't be worth robbing? :laugh:

nosh276

07-16-2004, 14:22

tkdcanada

07-16-2004, 14:23

Well, Bryan, I tend to share your thought processes and William, we can't find a middle ground....but that's okay :) , that's what makes it fun. This thread and the other one I've been on about capital punishement have been some of the most interesting ones I've seen in a while. I love a friendly argument! :) Although we can't agree, I respect your opinions and I believe each one has it's place since neither can be always right or always wrong in every situation. :bow:

aplonis

08-06-2004, 23:52

In addition to the routine advice of never to start a fight, nor to run away from one, nor to continue once an opponent should yield...I add my own thoughts as to proper time and place. These I hold only to ever be 'right then' and 'right there'.

So...either then and there or not at all. Fighting later and somewhere else is never a matter of self defence. The bullies of my experince have generally been of two kinds: 1) unpredictable sorts with zero impulse control, or 2) cowards who pick a time and place to their own advantage. I recall that as a child I was mostly aware of the latter, the kind who require an audience. An 'appointment' is their opportunity to gather one.

I can imagine no one particular way to handle the former. The latter however are easy to thwart. A right-here, right-now policy will set them aback. It will run counter to their modus operandi. The teacher's view or that of some other will inconvenience their plan since ever they seek the 'secret' place and time.

The former sort, being unexpected, are harder to deal with. And here I present the story which I have related to Skajler in partial mitigation of that very 'right here', 'right now' policy. I explained to him thus for the sake of ballance. I wish him to see it as a guidline and not a fatherly command...that if he should fight to know where and when...but to equally know where and when not.

Once at the beach a little girl made free with a couple of Skajler's toys. He was then just about three years old. An exchange of accusations between the two moms escalated into a shouting match. Foolish me, I interposed myself between them. The other mom inched forward and got so in-my-face as to speckle me with saliva on every plosive consonant in her profane vocabulary. Her index (and sometimes middle) finger waving all the while just an inch before my eyes.

Here was a situation very nearly unique to my experience. The only screaming, spitting woman I had ever before encountered was a patient at the state hospital where I once had worked as an orderly. There I knew the correct responses. But here in public I was totally unprepared. Plus there were children underfoot.

I glanced around to make sure of Skajler's position where he sat crying right by my feet at the water's edge. Then, on turning back again I was sucker punched square in the jaw by the woman's boyfriend who'd come upon me unobserved. Yes...I know...lack of awareness...what training I had all gone by the wayside.

Thus rudely brought to the state of hightened awareness which I had ought to've assumed on my own I then took note of the hundred and more witnesses to this event, it being the 4th of July at a popular city park. Nor could I fail to observe that running full tilt in our direction was a uniformed park ranger with another, older man keeping pace in civies.

Yes, in theory I could very well have hit the man back, perhaps inflicted noteworthy damage during that short window of opportunity before the ranger could hope to arrive. But with children literally underfoot? No, the thought of it did not enter my mind. Right here was not at all the place. Nor was right now a good time. Such being the case it would have to be never.

Well, not quite entirely never. The ranger and park supervisor made the scene somewhat short of breath half a minute later. And preferring to continue his afternoon in the sun as opposed to the indoor drugery of paperwork the ranger insisted...very forcefully insisted...that he would have to charge us both if he were to charge either of us.

But were I to likewise be lazy and selfish, cherishing my own sunny afternoon (not to mention my bank account) in preference to letting the court decide...that would be a disservice to all (and very especially to whomever this most unworthy opponent may chance to encounter next). Bad karma indeed to encourage such as he with even so small a victory.

Already having yielded terrestrial ground I held at least to my moral one when the real cops arrived in fairly short order. Having spoken with the ranger first the trio made a united front in threatening to charge the pair of us for 'mutual assault' if either should wish to persue the case. Not very relishing the cost of having to hire an attorney, I decided to stand my ground (if only metaphorically).

How did events proceed? The prossecutor concurred not at all with the cop's assesment of events. So my charges were dismissed immediately and I was spared the expense of a lawyer. My too-spontaneous opponent earned an assault conviction, probation and hundred dollar fine...this latter, I assume, on top of a hefty attorney's fee.

Has this story a moral in it? I think that it does. In correct (if somewhat belated) assessment of the situation I wisely declined from striking back. Neither, however did I back down. Allowing myself to be so distracted as to receive a sucker's blow was indeed a mistake. But under that set of circumstances it would have been even a far bigger mistake to return the favor. It would have been unthinkably irresponsible with two very small children underfoot.

Anyway, that is the story which I cite as an example to my son who cannot himself remember it having been so young. In all situations one must decide quickly how to act. Quickly but not hastily. For it must be the correct decision. It must be done right then and right there...or not at all. Under no circumstances whatsoever would I have done right to forego the socially instituted means of redress in favor or an informal 'appointment' with this fellow at some later time or place. Bystanders (not to mention the prossecutor) may not be dismissed from consideration if one is to act responsibly.

An 'appointment' for later is only sophmoric spectator sport, no matter at all of genuine honor, and even less of self-defense. For what it's worth, such are my thoughts on the matter of bullies.