Authenticity of Korean Hwa Rang Do? [Archive] - BudoSeek! Martial Arts Community Forums

johenora

09-08-2003, 15:36

Is Hwa Rang Do for real or fake? My friend Carlton Chambers a noted martial arts historian and archaologist says it was real at one time but it died and was resurrected in modern times as a warrior art by some Tae Kwan Do experts.
How can we find out for sure? Does anyone know? Donn Draeger wrote little on this subject.
Does the art have scrolls and a heritage line that is viewable and genuinely traceable like Gracie Jiu Jitsu?
Also I saw a page which said it was the precursor to Daito Ryu because the so-called Japanese General Shira Saburo Yoshimitsu inventor of Daito Ryu was really of Korean heritage and Daito Ryu come from ancient Hwa Rang Do of the warrior Korean class and priests who may have been Buddhists and knew the Chinese classics like the Wu Pei Shi of the Ming Dynasty and the drawings of martial techniques are exactly the same from the 24 volume s of Wu Bei Shi (cica 1600) and inserted in the Daito Ryu book of the Japanese warrrior Kanskue Yamamoto of the Shingen Takeda Clan of Daito Ryu and also in the Hwa Rang Do books and Tang Soo Do martiasl art gup books.
Any replies would be appreciated to confirm this important issue.
John Denora,
Nchijo Kore Dojo

Kyuusaku

09-08-2003, 21:00

Well, fake or otherwise, I don't think that your historian friend has it quite right.

I don't think that there is any strong evidence that Hwarang martial arts ever existed, and Hwarangdo probably has little to do with Taekwondo.

Go to the Hwarangdo homepage to see the creator's view on the history of the art (you probably have already?).

So, does anyone know? Maybe the creator (Joo Bang Lee) knows.

I think that the Daito-ryu and Hwarang link is rather flaky... Foremost, it is hard to say that 'Shinra Saburo' was Korean just because 'Shinra' was one of his names. He may have had some Korean connection, but who's to say?

What are the Wubeishi? I'm afraid that I'm not familiar with this...

Edward Cha

DPM

09-08-2003, 23:04

In my little corner of paradise it is irrelevant. I don't study it myself, but I know several fine people who do. And the local school takes about 50% of the top trophies at the annual Cobra-Butterfly invitational tournament. As long as they are turning out good & responsible MA'ist, then I don't think the exact history matters too much.

johenora

09-26-2003, 01:15

Edward Cha writes in part:

[i]Originally posted by Kyuusaku [/iI think that the Daito-ryu and Hwarang link is rather flaky... Foremost, it is hard to say that 'Shinra Saburo' was Korean just because 'Shinra' was one of his names. He may have had some Korean connection, but who's to say?
-------Edward Cha

Dear Edaward Cha:
Now, I know there is much research to do to find the connection.
--------------------------------

What are the Wubeishi? I'm afraid that I'm not familiar with this...
Edward Cha [/B]
-----
Dear Edward:
Again I goofed and misspelled the words--sorry.
Meant to write - WU PEI SHI. These are about 24 books written in China about 1600 regarding the history of the martial arts and are located at the Oriental Library, Chinese Section at Harvard University , Boston , Massachusetts.
There are many similar diagrams and figures in the Japanese and Korean Martial art books.
Who knows how these similarities resulted? It is an anomoly and mystery to me. But there are very strong similarities.
There are also some similarities in an Okinawan martial art book called BuBeiShi. These things are significant but I do not know the connection. The martial art historical experts probably would know. I will admit I do not know why. But there is something to probably explain this
The noted historian Pofessor Quenton Chambers may know, but I have not had a chance to see him and I will not be in contact with him until November 2003 at the Dragonfest gathering in the Los Angeles (Glendale area). I hope this helps.

jcwebster

01-16-2004, 11:09

Lee, Joo Bang was an early student of Choi, Yong Sul in Korea. Lee's Hwa Rang Do is a combination of Choi's Hapki techniques and Chinese martial arts. Lee did the same thing with Hwa Rang Do that In, Hyuk Suh did with Kuk Sool Won. In, Hyuk Suh learned Hapki techniques from his brother (In, Sun Seo, current Head of the Korea Kido Association) who was also an early student of Choi. In, Hyuk Suh was also a Chinese Chaun Fa practitioner. Kuk Sool Won is mostly a combination of these two influences. The history of these two arts (Hwa Rang Do and Kuk Sool Won) was re-written to erase any Japanese influence. If you watch Lee, Joo Bang or In, Hyuk Suh you will imediately recognize Choi's Hapki techniques. From what I understand there is not much written about the Hwa Rang warrior's system of fighting. There is no doubt in my mind that they probably did have a fighting system(s) that included weapons as well as hand-to-hand but there is no proof that the system(s) that they (Hwa Rang Warriors) used resembles any thing close to Lee's (Hwa Rang Do) or In's (Kuk Sool Won). Both Lee, Joo Bang and In, Hyuk Suh both claim to have spent some time learning "secret" arts from a monk. It was not unusual at the time for Choi's students to "add" to and "rename" the system. Ji, Han Jae did it with his art "Hapkido" which is much different than what Choi originally taught.

jcwebster

01-16-2004, 13:11

Has anyone studied both arts (Hwa Rang Do & Kuk Sool Won) enough to make a comparison? What are the differences? Just curious.

rjrkihap

04-07-2004, 14:10

From my understanding, which stems from the knowledge we are required to learn about each hyung, Hwa Rang Do is the art preformed by the Hwa Rang youth group which originated in the Early 7th Century in the Silla Dynasty of Korea. The Hwa Rang youth group eventually became the driving force for the unification of the three kingdoms of Korea....{basic knowledge for our promotion test}

While studying Hapkido, I was told (and read) that the Hwa Rang youth group eventually traveled to Japan and preformed for the royalty. It was from the Hwa Rang Do that the Japanese developed Aiki Jujitsu (sp). This again is what I have been told. I wasn't there so I don't know for sure, but I do know that from Aikido, Hapkido evolved. So we are lead to believe that Hwa Rang Do was the original basis for modern day Hapkido. Again, do not take what I have offered as undisputed fact, but rather one possible interpretation.

Ron

jcwebster

04-07-2004, 15:16

There was a group of Korean warriors called the "flowering youth" and it is almost certain that they practiced a wide range of combat arts such as the sword, knife, spear, etc. as well as empty hand techniques. After all, a warrior's job is to be proficient in fighting. While the history of the Flowering Youth may be basic knowledge for your promotion test it doesn't necessarily mean that it is factual.

There is no historical references that even suggest that any of the flowering youth members ever went to Japan to perform for the royalty. As far as Hwa Rang Do being the predecessor of Aiki-Jujutsu I say impossible. The odds of Lee Joo-Bang being the only modern student and successor to the Hwa Rang Do lineage are very small. It is interesting that his brother (Lee Joo-Sang) who was also supposedly trained by the same monk only refered to his art as Hapkido and not Hwa Rang Do. The fact is that there is actual proof that both of these men were high ranking practitioners of Hapkido under Choi Yong-Sul. Now if Aiki-Jujutsu came from Hwa Rang Do then the techniques would be very similar. So, why would a guy who was a Hwa Rang Do master need training in Hapki-yusul (Aiki-Jujutsu) from a master (Choi) that learned his techniques in Japan if it was identical? And, by the way, Hapkido did not come from Ueshiba's Aikido it came from Takeda's Aiki-Jujutsu. Both Ueshiba and Choi were trained by Takeda.

Basically, what has happened here is that Lee Joo-Bang learned Hapki-yusul from Choi and then decided that he wanted to branch out on his own to teach his version of martial arts. In Hyuk-Suh (also a student of Choi) did the same thing with Kuk Sul Won. Ji Han-Jae did the same thing with Hapkido. There's nothing wrong with going out on your own however, there is something wrong with lying to your students about your history because you are ashamed that your art came from Japan. If you don't believe that Lee Joo-Bang can be deceiptful then why does he not give any credit to Choi for teaching him Hapki-yusul? He did learn Hapki-yusul from Choi which you can easily research and confirm. Instead he wants to make his students think that he's the only Grand Master of a Korean martial art that's thousands of years old. Sounds good on paper if you like fiction.

rjrkihap

04-08-2004, 13:06

Thanks for the info James. It seems the history of the martial arts is riddled with confusion. I really need to do much more research. Do you know if a youth group calling themselves Hwa Rang ever actually existed in the early 7th century? I have read about Taek Kwon being the original martial art of Korea upon which Tae Kwon Do takes some of its roots, but was there any other ancient Korean art similar to Hapkido that could have influenced modern day Hapkido or did the entire basis for Hapkido originate from Aikido?

Thanks again for all your information.

Ron Rohde

jcwebster

04-08-2004, 14:15

I do believe that there are historical records that confirm that there was an actual group of warriors called the "Flowering Youth" however, it is unknown what techniques they used.

Taek Kwon? I believe you are referring to the old Korean form of foot fighting "Tae Kyon" which did influence Tae Kwon Do. According to my Master (S.K. Yang) Tae Kyon is still practiced in Korea but only as a dance and not as a martial art.

There probably were early Korean martial arts that incorporated joint locks but to what extent is unknown. The joint locks in Hapkido, Hwa Rang Do and Kuk Sul Won are all definately from Choi Yong-Sul's Hapki-Yusul (Aiki-Jujutsu). Ji Han-Jae was a Tae Kyon practitioner before he met Choi so he naturally added the high kicks and jump kicks to his style (Sin Moo). Most Hapkido Masters today in the USA were initially trained in Ji Han-Jae's style of Hapkido (Han Bong-Soo for one). In Hyuk-Suh's martial art (Kuk Sul Won) is a combination of Choi's Hapki-Yusul, Chinese Chaun Fa, and Gumdo. In Hyuk Suh never actually trained under Choi but his brother (In Sun-Seo) did. In Hyuk-Suh would practice Chinese Chaun Fa during the day and then his brother (In Sun-Seo) would teach him Hapki-Yusul at night. He combined these into his own art. Lee Joo-Bang actually trained under Choi for many years before starting his own martial art (Hwa Rang Do). Look at the histories of Hwa Rang Do and Kuk Sul Won and see how similar they are. Also, notice that there is no mention of Choi, Hapki-Yusul, or Hapkido on any of their english websites. However, it is widely known in Korea that these arts were taken from Choi's Hapki-Yusul. Ask any Korean Hapkido Master about Hwa Rang Do or Kuk Sul Won and they will tell you that they are only different versions of Hapkido. Lee Joo-Bang's brother (Lee Joo-Sang) and In Hyuk-Suh's brother (In Sun-Seo) both claim that they were primarily trained in Hapki-Yusul but for some reason the founders of these two arts deny any influence from Choi. Again, it is easy to research this and confirm via pictures and interviews that Lee and In both were heavily influenced by Hapki-Yusul. Compare their joint locks to Hapkido's and you will see no difference. This is not a coincidence. Lee and In wanted to remove any link to Japan from their styles. This meant that they could not be associated with Choi because he was definately a product of Japanese martial arts. Lee and In wanted arts that they could say were only Korean with no influence which would be ok if it were true.

Most people don't care about the histories of their art initially. But, after you really get into an art and have invested a lot of your time to it you will find that you care more and more about your roots. You will want to know the truth about where you come from and your masters. I just feel that a lot of Kuk Sul Won and Hwa Rang Do students are going to feel like they were lied to. Maybe it's not that big of a lie but it is a lie still. And, if a master will lie to you about one thing then he is capable of lying to you about another thing.

Also, remember, Hapkido did not come from Aikido. Ueshiba and Choi both trained under Takeda. Both arts were started around the same time frame. Choi did not train in Aikido! Choi trained in Daito Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu. There are some similarities but they are both uniquely different. Choi taught Hapki-Yusul (Aiki-Jujutsu) when he returned to Korea. Choi's Hapki-Yusul is not the same as KHF Hapkido. If you want to know more about Hapki-Yusul you should refer to Grandmaster Kim Yun-Sang's website (www.hapkiyusul.com). Grandmaster Kim is teaching the art exactly as he was taught by Doju Nim Choi.

Take care.

JC

rjrkihap

04-08-2004, 23:07

Thanks once again JC. Great info. A couple more questions if you don't mind. Are Hapkido and Hapki Yusul the same thing? GM Bong Soo Han states in his bio that he trained under Yong Sul Choi, and Choi developed Hapki Yusul which as you stated was based on Japanese Aiki-Jujutsu. Am I correct so far? Also, is Aiki Jujutsu to Aikido as Jujutsu is to Judo? Is Aiki Jujutsu similar to Jujutsu as we see it today? I was told that Jujutsu, Aikido and Hapkido were basically "cousins" of each other because of the similarity in technique, is this correct? One last question, from GM Bong's web site, Yong Sul Choi is said to be the creator of Hapkido, then where does Ji Han-Jae fit in? I didn't quite catch whether or not Ji Han-Jae and Choi were both students of Takeda?

Thanks again for you information. You've been a great help.

Ron Rohde

rupertmja

04-08-2004, 23:39

The Hwarang warriors and their deeds are well known in Korea - Koreans love history, and in terms of war they used to do pretty well for themselves, at one point extending their territory far into China.

Hwarang-do as an indepenent art does not and never did exist in Korea. If you were to find a Hwarang-dojang in Korea it would probably be an American import! Some TKD or Hapkido dojangs sometimes use the characters "Hwa-rang" for their dojang name - but that is just it - it is just a name, nothing more than if a Scotsman called his dojang or business 'Wallace Dojang' or 'Wallace Business" (of Braveheart fame).

The Hwarang were a group of successful young warriors, no doubt well versed in the military arts as stated above. So, if you want to mimick them, you should get yourself a horse, a bow, and a bunch of arrows. Next comes a sword and shield etc etc. Then you band together and attack your neighbours, chop them up, then claim their land to expand yours.

Hwarang-do in the USA was made in the USA by Koreans (explained above) who studied Hapkido and other arts. They never studied anything called Hwarang-do because it does not exist.

jcwebster

04-09-2004, 18:53

To: rjrkihap

Hakido came from Hapki-Yusul which came from Daito Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu. Choi Yong-Sul was taught Aiki-Jujutsu from Takeda Sokaku in Japan. Choi returned to Korea after WW2 and began teaching Dai Dong Ryu Hapki-Yusul which is the Korean translation of Daito Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu. GM Han Bong-Soo was an indirect student of Choi and was primarily trained by Choi's senior student (Ji Han-Jae). Han Bong-Soo now has his own organization (International Hapkido Federation) and Ji Han-Jae has his own organization (Sin Moo Hapkido). Naturally GM Han and GM Ji have different ideas about how they want to teach their version of Hapkido. So, GM Han no longer claims any affiliation to GM Ji because afterall they are basically each others competition. GM Han only claims that Choi was his teacher but this is not exactly true. Check out www.hapkido-info.net and take at look at the Hapkido Family Tree.

You are right in that Aiki-Jujutsu is to Aikido as Jujutsu is to Judo as Hapki-Yusul is to Hapkido. Aiki-Jujutsu is a style of Jujutsu. If we were to organize these arts like a family Daito Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu would be the father and Aikido and Hapki-Yusul would be the children. As far as Korean lineage Hapki-Yusul would be the father and Hapkido would be the son. Choi taught Hapki-Yusul which is the Aiki-Jujutsu that he learned in Japan. According to many of his students he did not add any techniques or weapons. Hapkido is a product of Ji Han-Jae who added the high kicking techniques that he learned from Tae Kyon as well as weapons. Remember that techniques are not the primary differences between a Japanese "Jutsu" (Yusul) and "Do". In fact most of their techniques can look quite similar. You have to look at the philosophies. The "Do" philosophy is much different than the "Jutsu" (Yusul) philosophy. Aikido, Judo, Karate-do, Taekwondo and even Hapkido are all concerned with the development of the practitioner's mind, body and spirit which in turn will make him a better human being. Take a look at any of these systems' philosophies andyou will see what I mean. The techniques that Choi learned from Takeda were samurai arts which meant that they were techniques specifically intended to help warriors survive on the battlefield. Takeda was a samurai and although he must have had his own philosophy about his art it was most definately nothing like Ueshiba's cult like religious ideas (Omote religion). Read about Ueshiba and you will see what I mean. A good book about him is the one written by his son (Kisshomaru Ueshiba). The founders of Judo (Jigoro Kano) and Karate-Do (Gichin Funakoshi) were educators and intended their arts to be practiced by everyone (even children) to make them better citizens. Kano and Funakoshi were not necessarily concerned about self-defense for citizens but instead wanted to improve ones body and mind. A good book about all three of these Masters is (Three Budo Masters by John Stevens).

Was Daito Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu like the Jujutsu that we see today? Well, I can assure you that Daito Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu is still going strong all over the world but it is nothing like the popular Brazilian Juijutsu. Brazilian Jujutsu is really Judo. Judo was brought to Brazil by one of Kano's head Judo Instructors. Some of the early Brazilian practitioners added some punches and kicks and began calling it BJJ but if you look closely it is mostly Judo ground fighting (Ne-Waza) with some punches and kicks thrown in. BJJ guys hate to be told that and always deny it but if you ask most of them who brought their art to Brazil they will most likely say "I don't know but the Gracies learned it from a Jiujutsu Master". Wrong he was a Judo Instructor sent to Brazil by the Kodokan to spread Judo.

Who created Hapkido? Well, Ji Han-Jae blended Tae Kyon with Hapki-Yusul and created Hapkido. Lee Joo-Bang blended Hapki-Yusul with some other arts and created Hwa Rang Do. In Hyuk-Suh blended Hapki-Yusul with Chinese Chaun Fa (Kung Fu) and created Kuk Sul Won. There are countless others. So who created Hapkido? Ji Han-Jae. What did Choi create? Absolutely nothing. Choi learned his art from Takeda and that's what he taught in Korea. Choi did not invent anything. Just remember, just because you make your own art doesn't mean that it's any good or that it's better than the original art(s) that you learned. Choi obviously was satisfied with Hapki-Yusul and did not feel the need to change or alter it in any way. From what I've researched Choi was a very impressive martial artist and if Hapki-Yusul was good enough for him then it's definately good enough for me.

One more thing. You will see that everyone refers to Choi's art as Hapkido. I asked my Master (Yang Seung-Kyu) about this. He told me that the names Hapki-Yusul or Hapkido are not important in Korea. The techniques are where you will see the different influences. Also, most people, especially outside of Korea do not understand the whole Hapki-Yusul and Hapkido history so most Masters will just refer to their art as Hapkido. This does not mean that they are practicing the KHF (Korea Hapkido Federation) style (acrobatics, high kicks, etc.). They just use the name Hapkido because it's easier than explaining the differences to everyone who probably don't care anyway. Also, the name Hapkido is more popular so it is better to use that name for business purposes. My Master uses the name Hapkido but his uniforms have the Hapki-Yusul writing and he teaches strictly Hapki-Yusul as taught to him by Grandmaster Kim Yun-Sang and Choi Yong-Sul.

By the way, there was another Korean Master that trained with Takeda at the same time as Choi and he is now teaching in Korea. However, Ji Han-Jae never trained with Takeda he was Choi's student.

If you would like more info on my master check out:
www.master-yang.com

Take care,

JC

glad2bhere

04-10-2004, 12:26

Dear Folks:

As a veteran of more than a few of such discussions may I counsel caution as you proceed. The original question started with the questions as to whether Hwa Rang Do is "real or fake". The fact is that it is both-- and neither.

1.) There is no historical documented basis for the Hwa Rang warriors. We know that they are made reference to in a number of writings since the Yuan Dynasty starting in the 13th century. Thats as much as we know. We can make some educated guesses such as "they were warriors so they must have learned about weapons" but we do not know their training methods, or their techniques.

2,) Since the Hwa Rang warriors are closely tied to Confucian and Buddhist codes through oral tradition it is not unusual to have Korean institutions invoke those warriors as representative of those codes. There is no patrilinear relationship between modern practitioners any more than there is patrilinear connections between institutions that invoke the patriotism of the Minutemen who stood at Concord against the British in the Revolution.

3.) Hwa Rang Do is widely known for the excellent technicians its training produces and the heavy emphasis they place on sound conduct according to the O-Gae. This is not a function of being related to some 7th century Korean Frat. Its a matter of hard training done regularly.

4.) I wish I had a nickel for every person who works to validate what they do by identifying connections with some well-known personality. It doesn't help that Koreans have modeled playing fast and loose among their association with well-known people. We know only that Choi learned "something" while he was visiting Japan. What he brought back to Korea he called "yawara." Fine. Unless people are going to swear allegianxce to the DRAJJ organization, I don't see the point in playing this up. I also don't see a reason for ignoring the Chinese influences into the same family of arts.

One last thing. I would also be pretty careful about making statements about what something "means" when transliterating among the Pacific Rim cultures. Unless someone is facile in Korean, Japanese and Chinese -- both old and new---- the best we can hope for are just guesses at what much of what is written means. It also doesn't help to perform these functions through an English "lens", yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

rjrkihap

04-11-2004, 20:01

Yes Mr. Sims, I do apologize for taking this topic off track. Indeed we began discussing the authenticity of Hwa Rang Do as a Martial Art. I do want to thank Mr. Webster for sharing his knowledge. It seems the more you learn the more you want to know. If I have any further questions with Hapkido, I will try to post them in the correct subcategory.

Ron Rohde

Michael Becker

04-17-2004, 15:10

I found the following information quite intresting.

http://www.hwarang.org/Ancienthistory.html

The website was set up by Bob Duggan, a former senior student of the school. Politics aside, Mr Duggan provides a logical arguement in favour of hwa rang do, as taught by Joo Bang Lee, being a modern invention.

http://www.hwarang.org/Personal.html

Mr Duggan speaks very highly of Joo Bang Lee's ability, not so regarding his ethics.

Whatever the truth of the matter, politics can be a dirty business...

glad2bhere

04-17-2004, 15:33

Dear Michael and Ron:

Just a quick comment regarding the use of the term authenticity.

Many times it seems that people choose to use only a single approach to authenticating the material they teach. This approach is usually to invoke membership in some lineage that has stood the test of time. For my part, my dispute with GM Lee is not over the lineage he has. My dispute is over the lineage he has elected to construct. In my own case I am two teachers removed from GM Choi yong Sul. I don't pretend otherwise and when my students ask I don't construct some romantic story reaching back to the Hwa Rang warriors. I think research would support aspects of the Hapkido arts going back into the 19th and 18th century but I don't invoke that as part of my tradition, thought I DO continue to research it. I would have been a whole lot more comfortable had GM Lee simply stood on what he knew and what he wanted to teach rather than construct some story representing him as the 57th GM (inheritor) of an obscure, non-specific tradition in order to grow his organization. Just thinking out loud. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Michael Becker

04-18-2004, 06:20

I completely agree with you Bruce.

rupertmja

04-19-2004, 02:18

Just read those two links a couple of posts above - very interesting. The "Cult of Personality" that people like to talk of in reference to the mad dictator up north (Kim Jeong-il) is common everywhere in modern Korean society, even Korean society in the USA, it seems. In martial arts, sports teams, schools, or business the top dog does his best to 'expand his position' and push way beyond the boundaries of truth. There is another word for this - "Confucianism". In part it helps make Korea strong, but at the same time, it places a spanner in the works. Sometimes, it is quite bizzare to live here :)

glad2bhere

04-19-2004, 07:57

Dear Rupert:

At the risk of inciting a response from the KMA community in general I would like to refocus a bit. For myself, I am not sure we can lay the woes of KMA leadership solely at the door of Confucianism. Certainly there is a foundation in this belief system but I am more dismayed with what the Korean culture has done with it. By this I mean that I can't think of a single belief system, educational or governmental approach, a business or economic model over which the Korean culture does not immediately splinter into a myriad of sects, groups, or movements. We Westerners are fond of generalities in that we seem to paint all Oriental cultures with broad strokes like "consensus-building" and "fealty". The fact is that the Koreans never pull-together as a nation, in that we are not dealing with a single culture but rather a constellation of tribal or clan followings. We Westerners have not developed a decent model for dealing with tribal models even though we have been confronting such societies for the last 500 years. If anyone were to need evidence we have only to look at the African colonization of the 17-to-1900-s, the genocidal policies of the American West, the Australian policies against Aborigines, and the current campaigns in South America against the tribes of the Amazon jungle. And I wouldn't get me started on the violence in the Middle East as it is quite plain that my own countrys' government has little or no appreciation for the organizational dynamics of the tribe as it deals with Afghanistan and Iraq.

Finally, I submitt that when the East/West Germans chose to recombine their countries it happened in a matter of months. The Korean people have not been able to bring an end to the Korean War--- even on paper-- let alone re-unite their country. This sort of small-minded, mean-spirited selfishness keeps Korea constantly in turmoil as individual groups vie only for what they want and not whats best for the country. To my mind, what we see in the KMA is only a cultural extension of the country's mentality. Joo Bang Lees' HwaRangDo could easily be seen as little more than a transplant to a new country seeking to put down roots. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

rupertmja

04-19-2004, 09:37

I kinda agree with what you say, and can add this. Before an election Koreans plant their feet in the ground and stand by their positions (factions). After the election, they all (well, mostly) sway with the times, especially in the sense of uniting against the common front - the foreigner. They will say "Our President", and feel kind of kindly toward him, even though they were vehmently opposed just a short while before. In one sense, it might be that they are more accepting - after that fact - than we are. i.e. more democratic. The recent debacle of impeaching the president annoyed almost everyone, whether they like him or not. It's quite interesting ... Some koreans actually see Kim Jeong-ill (the mad dictator up north) as a Korean and 'feel' for him in the sense of uniting against that common front - the foreigner, and in particular, the American. Can get rather perplexing.

Back to Hwarangdo - looks like they are actually operating within the Korean sense of things. Their fake history might have worked in the past but the Internet has opened everything up. They will have no choice but to accept the truth.

infiniomega

06-10-2004, 05:30

Hwa Rang Do never ever existed they are just trying to use the name hwarang to make money but the art called hwarangdo never existed (if anyone has said this i am sorry i reposted)

DoKwang

06-10-2004, 06:14

How can you say the art never existed? just because something is disputed does not mean it never existed, as it clearly exists today in a number of forms. I could blab on about God, evolution etc, but theres no point.

At my school hwarang do is simply the teens class. They do not claim it to be a seperate art to what we do. It is simply the development of their skills within our form- hence "the flowering youth".
Makes you wonder how much effect misinterpretation has over time.

And Isn't it all just to make money?

Just my opinion

infiniomega

06-10-2004, 14:26

hwa rang do never existed because people believe that hwa rang studied martial arts which is not true. hwa rang studied war tactics and how to war. these kids were usually from upper class families unlike most soldiers who were not from upper class families (Upper class family refers to wealth and their father's political position and how well they knew korean knowledge) Soldiers were uneducated usually called Ssang Nom meaning ignorant or low class. and by adding hwa rang plus a do they are cashing in (good for them)

also till this day there is argument that even the hwarang never existed. it seems as though korean people created it to rival the tales of the samurai even tho samurais were crappy fighters. there has been in the past groups of people that fought really well in korea or should i say koguryo, shilla and paekchae never really produced the great fighters or war tactician

Rudy W. Timmerman

06-11-2004, 23:33

In, Hyuk Suh learned Hapki techniques from his brother (In, Sun Seo, current Head of the Korea Kido Association) who was also an early student of Choi. In, Hyuk Suh was also a Chinese Chaun Fa practitioner. Kuk Sool Won is mostly a combination of these two influences. The history of these two arts (Hwa Rang Do and Kuk Sool Won) was re-written to erase any Japanese influence.

GM Seo In Sun is not the current head of Korea Kido Association, he heads up the WKF and his own newly formed Hanminjok Hap Ki Do group. GM Suh In Hyuk did not learn techniques from his younger brother, and the history of the art is not long enough to have any Japanese influence to be erased. I would appreciate any documented information to prove that I am wrong, as I am never too old to learn.

This thread has many other references to historical Korean events, but I see no evidence to back up any of the claims being made. Yet, I see folks making statements that they apparently view as the ultimate truth. One thing I have learned over the past 50 some years of practising martial arts, believe only what you absolutely know to be true... otherwise keep an open mind. :bow:

infiniomega

06-13-2004, 15:46

"believe only what you absolutely know to be true"

timmerman got webster on this those two arts are way to new to be influenced by japanese directly

Gae-Bek

06-15-2004, 12:24

infiniomega

06-15-2004, 14:23

gae-bek - i read that sometime ago actualy i read all the articles he bases his opinion on a lot of assumptions. first off hwarang was not fighters as koreans put it. its literally the equivalent of boy scouts for rich boys. Hwarang also in old korean meant "to rise up" so his interpretation is not the only one. koreans did make it more into something better than what was really true, but truthfully they werent warriors, people have to get that straight. they were children of scholar families who valued education and spat on warriors. being a warrior in silla or paekchae was not the thing to be only in koguryo was it promoted. the chinese people called korean eastern bowmen but they were really talking of koguryo. pretty much everything this dude says is half ass interpretation but hwarang was not warriors which he is right on , they were boys.

he states that koreans people feel inferior because of the samurai?!?!? thats bs because in history samurais were the crappiest fighters known to exist. the samurais were so weak they had to have 2 people carrying a zanbatou/pudao/horse cutter sword to use it in battle koreans and Chinese used it by themselves. just because eurocentric views make them look good they were not close to a great warrior. if you look at korean history they were always just stated as a nuisance and dubbed the name "haejuk" or pirate for a long time until they got rifles. if koreans promoted the military then even the imjin war would have been prevented. they lost because they didnt have enough people that were trained properly since the scholars loved thinking they were better than warriors and everyone else. samurais favorite weapon was not katana or any sword they used a friggin rifle.

anyways this guy is bent on proving that koreans are ignorant liars etc. Yet his argument is based off of random people who stated that koreans have this and that in history and its not the general consensus. just because one person says something wild and crazy doesnt mean its true. its like me talking crap about japan because of one person. interesting fact about the samurai is that the term was a derogatory term for sometime in japanese history. it meant has been warrior that is a servant/slave to the king. samurai became unnecessary because the kanto people of the north did all the fighting for the japanese. but japanese dont like this fact so they cover it up.

another fact, japanese people knew that they could not take over korea and started putting metal pipes in the ground at pressure points thinking that will stop great leaders from emerging, stop great warriors from being born, and future generations being ignorant. i mean if it did work or not thats some sick minded ****. this was found out recently when they pulled out these metal pipes that were the size school buses from the ground and supposedly they are all over korea. they also introduced gambling before then gambling was looked down upon or at times illegal, burnt almost every type of korean text (most martial arts books lost through this). At times they even tried to rewrite korean history. took korean flowers to japan and burnt the ones in korea and salted the ground so it wont grow (wtf). You see why koreans dislike japanese?

kodanjaclay

06-15-2004, 23:27

Mr. Park,

You may not use profanity here, nor may you use Budoseek! for any kind of anti-social, or cultural, pulpit. Please restrain yourself.

UrbanWarrior

07-10-2004, 19:25

hwa rangs are real and every1 knows that they are from silla dynasty when korea was divided into 3 countries(dynasties) Hwa rangs are not from upper class it was formed of any teenagers that wished to participate and qualify, and they practiced the martial art 'tae kyon' which is the old form of tae kwon do. But since they had to use weapons in war, hwa rangs practiced tae kyon and also weapons. And thats Hwa Rang Do.

kodanjaclay

07-11-2004, 01:38

First,

Please sign each post with your real name as per forum rules.

Second,

You might want to research Korean history a touch. What they indicate in history is a tad different from your rendition. Incidentally, every report I have come across has always indicated the Hwa Rang to be of noble caste. Where have you derived your information? Particularly since it is speculation of what exactly they did in fact study. I am aware of no authoritative historical account.

Third,

Taekwondo did not evolve from Taekyon. Taekwondo did not appear until '55 and the first recorded dojang was the Chung Do Kwan. Lee, Won Kuk taught T'ang Soo Do... Karate-do, as per his own statements.

UrbanWarrior

07-11-2004, 12:29

First, I am korean and I learned about hwarangs in history class

I learned that Silla was the smallest country/dynasty out of 3 countries/dynasties that was in korea. Since they were the smallest they needed more army so they started recruiting young men(teenagers)

http://www.wtf.org/about_tkd/history_tkd1.htm

it states that:

In the early days of the Korean peninsula, there were three tribes, each enjoying warrior's martial art contests during the ritual seasons. At the time, people learned techniques from their experiences of fighting against the beasts whose defensive and offensive motions were also the subject of analysis. It is believed that this was exactly the true grounding of today's Taekwondo, which names have descended from "Subak", "Taekkyon" and so on.

In fact, "hwarangdo" is the typical example of Shilla's martial arts, which is an assimilation of Koguryo's "sunbae" system. The youth group hwarangdo were well trained with the senses of filial piety, loyalty to the kingdom and sacrificial devotion to society to become important personalities for the rein of the kingdom. Notable among them were Kim Yu-Shin and Kim Chun-Chu that made definite contributions to the unification of those three kingdoms.

The chronicle of Old Chosun described the life of hwarangs, members of hwarangdo: "hwarang were selected by the kingdom through contests and, after selection, they lived together in a group, learning, exercising subak, fencing and horse-riding, and sometimes enjoyed various games of communities, working on emergency aids and construction of fortresses and roads, and they were always ready to sacrifice their lives at the time of war."

and many more...

and my name is francis

kodanjaclay

07-11-2004, 15:19

Francis,

I will pull out references which refute what you have just indicated... that being said, you have been told to post with both your first and last name. Should you wish to continue to be able to post here, please comply with our rules and regulations. This warning will not be repeated.

kodanjaclay

07-11-2004, 15:38

In reference to Noble descent:

The Kingdom of Silla was based on a Confucian doctrine of society. King Chin-hung believed, however, that the Buddhist canon led to a more calm and pure mind than did Confucianism. To this end, young, handsome males of Noble birth, some as young as 12 years old, were gathered together. They were dressed in the finest clothing and their faces were attractively painted with elaborate makeup. They were instructed extensively in Buddhism, medicine, and the theory of Ki according to the Nei Ching [the Huang Ti Nei Ching Su Wen (The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Internal Medicine), the first written text ever to discuss Ki and its interrelationship with the human body], and in poetry and song. It was believed that those who fared well in these activities had the divine grace to become superior warriors. A certain number of these young men who excelled were thus recommended to enter the ranks of the Hwa Rang.

http://www.hwarangkwan.com/hwarangdo.html

Here is a link to an article by Dr. Bannon, Ph.D. which is interesting:
http://www.hwarang.org/Ancienthistory.html

TKD History

Dr. Burdick's TKD history:
http://www.indiana.edu/~iutkd/history/tkdhist.html

Princeton
(very light)
http://www.princeton.edu/~tkd/history.html

Dr. Wick's History
http://www.uwsp.edu/it/staff/dberger/tkd/historypost19.htm

Modern History:
(one of the better)
http://www.martialartsresource.com/korean/korframe.htm

Now, I would recommend doing more research before trying to correct people who have researched this subject, and studied for longer than the 14 years you have listed as age. Incidentally, I would remove that... that would seem to me to be a safety issue.

In case you are unclear as to who master Lee, Won Kuk was, he was the founder of the first school of Taekwondo. At that time, it was called Tang Soo Do. In fact, Master Duk, Son Song still teaches the same style that was taought then... and it bears little resemblance to TKD as we normally think of it. Master Richard Chun makes note that in the 80's there was a marked change, and that was hidden from his group until at the last second before a competition to give the Nationals an advantage.

There is a whole lot more that could be said, but suffice it to say, as far as TKD history, you will need to do a whole lot more research than to simply accept what is told you. History is always slanted towards the author, so you have to read more and more to piece it together.

UrbanWarrior

07-11-2004, 17:05

Im not saying tae kwon do is like 2000 years old, Im just saying its generated from old korean martial arts such as sobakhee and tae kyon.

Francis Hortness(Do)

kodanjaclay

07-12-2004, 21:16

I understood you. However, history indicates the contrary. Taekwondo has no relationship to Taekkyun. If you have ever seen Taekkyun, you would understand this to be true. The name Taekwondo was selected by the General because it sounded like Taekkyun. That was in 1955. Not one of the founders of TKD studied Taekyun. Why? Because it was WWII and the Japanese authorities clamped down on all Korean culture. They were even forced to speak Japanese. If you do some research, you will find that the Kwan founders had Sino-Japanese roots for their systems, not Korean. This is not meant to slam them, it is meant to make sure that the truth is known.

Kyuusaku

07-14-2004, 00:08

I wonder about Chinese influence in Taekwondo (and other Korean arts), though - I can see the Japanese influence quite clearly, but I'm not sure I see the Chinese influence. Where is the influence of the 'gwon bup' that was learned by some people during occupation? What kind of gwon bup was it?

(Gwonbup = Quanfa = Kenpo = a general Chinese term for barehand martial arts;
Soobahkki = Shouboxi = a general term for barehand martial arts used in ancient China and later in Korea.

Gwonbup and Soobahkki should probably not be thought of as particular styles.)

Edward Cha

kodanjaclay

07-14-2004, 05:20

Ed,

I can't remember ever hearing anything more specific...

I know that MDK may have had some Long Fist connection... we used to have a form called SoRimJang Kwan. Then there is Dam Doi, which is Tan Tui. There are a host of other forms, which are not official, but are common that seem to have alot in common with CMA.

I'm thinking Chang Moo Kwan is the one that actually claims a Kwon Bup link; however, I have never trained in it, and would be unqualified to assess that link.

jungdo

12-25-2005, 12:39

This thread has many other references to historical Korean events, but I see no evidence to back up any of the claims being made. Yet, I see folks making statements that they apparently view as the ultimate truth. One thing I have learned over the past 50 some years of practising martial arts, believe only what you absolutely know to be true... otherwise keep an open mind. :bow:
You are right sir, however people are going to believe what they want.
And sadly I have seen this type of thing on other forums. Alot of people are sheep and believe what they are told from the internet. And don't ask the people that the claims are made about. Because that would take some work.
I as a member of hwa rang do take things with a grain of salt. But on the same side of things. Hwa rang do has alot more in it than most korean or other styles out there. And the truth is to all that get hung up on history.
It is it going to save your butt in a fight ( NO) but the things you learn from the art will.

rupertmja

12-27-2005, 01:18

Re: http://www.geocities.com/neue_strassenbahn/hwarang.html

I am not sure where, but there was an article in Korean by a Korean prof. asserting that it was possible that the Hwarang were boys organised to serve men - in the sexual sense.

jungdo

12-27-2005, 13:47

That is not funny and not true.
I am sorry any one can claim anything on the net and get away with it.
Sad thing though

ilbumy

01-17-2006, 23:47

I found this off of Bullshido today. Granted, anything found on Bullshido that's not MMA-related needs to be taken with a grain of salt, but it brings up some interesting points. I don't know how solid the references are (because the links are broken), but it's definitely worth a read.

http://www.geocities.com/neue_strassenbahn/hwarang.html
Interesting article but one thing I didn't like was the vast generalizations.

"Because of an inferiority complex toward Japan, South Korea needed something equal to Japanese samurai after the independence from Japan. So Koreans transformed mysterious Hwarang into brave warrior groups in the world of their imaginations. It was a convenient fiction for Koreans because Hwarang were prior to Japanese samurai. Some of them began to believe unquestioningly that samurai was influenced by Silla's Hwarang without foundation. Yes. By doing this they could beat hatred Japanese. "

I don't want to offend Hwarang-Do Practitioners but it has a poor reputation in Korea compared to other martial arts groups, yet this whole article makes it seem as though Hwarang-Do is Korea's no. 1 martial art.

Either way, strong opinionated stereotyping is very poor and biased writing.

Landon

02-20-2006, 18:00

I have a comment to make...that in the volume 1 KSW textbook, Suh explicitly references Choi and states that he was one of his most influential teachers. However, he emphasizes that, although this training was immensely important to him and to KSW, it does not represent the entirety of the KSW curriculum. He claims to have studied under quite a few Korean masters, perhaps most importantly his own grandfather, who wrote letters of recommendation which gave him access to otherwise inaccessible instruction.

I am thrilled to have found this thread! I have been practicing KSW for seven years and just opened up my own dojang. I have two questions:

1) Where did you learn all of this information?
2) What is Chuan Fa?

Regarding the discussion you were having: I have even seen TKD masters say that their art reflects that practiced by the Hwarang. I am not a historian, but I have trouble accepting claims that a particular "do" or "won" literally runs all the way back to ancient Korea. If t here was a Hwarang, I doubt they would have had a single art; rather, they probably had a general way of fighting which was part of a broader philosophy on life or of their religion.

I've got to go, I'll check back later.

jcwebster

02-23-2006, 00:55

In Hyuk Suh never trained with Choi. His brother (In Sun Seo) trained with Choi and then taught his brother (Suh). In Sun Seo is a recognized Hapkido GM, In Hyuk Suh is not. In Sun Seo will never totally cross over to Kuk Sool Won because he is proud of his Hapkido history with Choi. So In Sun Seo remains on the fence teetering between KSW and HKD. In Hyuk Suh would like nothing more than to distance himself from HKD because it does not back up his KSW story. HRD however, is similar to KSW, but, Lee Joo Bang and his brother Lee Joo Sang both legitimately trained with Choi. In the Korean based literature I have seen both HRD and KSW acknowledge Choi but in the english based stuff I rarely see Choi mentioned. What's sad is that 3 people are mainly responsible for muddying the waters when it comes to Choi's martial art: Lee Joo Bang, In Hyuk Suh and Ji Han Jae. So many additions and subtractions to Choi's teachings that these modern arts (KSW, HRD, and HKD) are nothing like what Choi taught. Better or worse? It's not what Choi taught and I for one would have liked to have studied Choi's curriculum without all the jumping-spinning kicks. :(

PS-In Hyuk Suh was trained in a Chinese martial art. The Korean equiv to Chinese Kung Fu (Chaun Fa) is called Sib Pal Gi.

Landon

02-23-2006, 15:43

In Hyuk Suh never trained with Choi. His brother (In Sun Seo) trained with Choi and then taught his brother (Suh). In Sun Seo is a recognized Hapkido GM, In Hyuk Suh is not. In Sun Seo will never totally cross over to Kuk Sool Won because he is proud of his Hapkido history with Choi. So In Sun Seo remains on the fence teetering between KSW and HKD. In Hyuk Suh would like nothing more than to distance himself from HKD because it does not back up his KSW story. HRD however, is similar to KSW, but, Lee Joo Bang and his brother Lee Joo Sang both legitimately trained with Choi. In the Korean based literature I have seen both HRD and KSW acknowledge Choi but in the english based stuff I rarely see Choi mentioned. What's sad is that 3 people are mainly responsible for muddying the waters when it comes to Choi's martial art: Lee Joo Bang, In Hyuk Suh and Ji Han Jae. So many additions and subtractions to Choi's teachings that these modern arts (KSW, HRD, and HKD) are nothing like what Choi taught. Better or worse? It's not what Choi taught and I for one would have liked to have studied Choi's curriculum without all the jumping-spinning kicks. :(

Could you tell me about where/how you learned all of this?

PS-In Hyuk Suh was trained in a Chinese martial art. The Korean equiv to Chinese Kung Fu (Chaun Fa) is called Sib Pal Gi.

So he was trained in Chaun Fa and not Ship Pal Ki? I have never seen anything of Ship Pal Ki. I have, however, seen a Chaun Fa form, and it seemed hard as a rock and very linear. There are no really hard movements in KSW, although of course there are linear movements. What is the Chaun Fa that you are referring to? Is this just a generic term for Chinese martial arts???

jcwebster

02-24-2006, 03:03

Like others here, I do a lot of research on HKD and related arts like KSW & HRD. If you do a little investigating you will find out all about how KSW & HRD link to Choi. You will also find that Lee Joo Bang's brother (Lee Joo Sang) of HRD and In Hyuk Suh's brother (In Sun Seo) of KSW are still reluctant to switch over from HKD. Lee Joo Sang and In Sun Seo still teach HKD. Why? A lot of the info that I have comes from my HKD & TKD master (Yang Seung-Kyu) and Master Yoo Myung-Moo (Kyuk Too Ki & Sib Pal Gi). Also, I have spoke with KSW and HRD practitioners and exchanged ideas and concepts with them. Other information I have gathered from my many books & videos/DVDs on Korean martial arts. And, info I have gathered from the net. But please don't take my word for it. I for one believe very little from the internet unless I can confirm it from another source. Check it out for yourself. Believe me, the answers are not hard to find. This isn't top secret stuff here.

In Hyuk Suh and In Sun Seo were not well off as children. The story is they could not afford to both practice HKD and In Hyuk Suh was fascinated with Chaun Fa anyway. So, He practiced Chaun Fa and his brother (In Sun Seo) practiced HKD (Hapki Yusul) with Choi. In Sun Seo and In Hyuk Suh would then show each other what they had learned from their masters and practiced together. I'm not sure what Chaun Fa System In Hyuk Suh studied. But, he definately never trained with Choi.

Chaun Fa is the same as saying Kung Fu. Numerous different styles. Some are linear and some are circular (some are a combination). Some are Internal and some are external. Sib Pal Gi is simply Chinese Kung Fu practiced in Korea. Sib Pal Gi and Chaun Fa are the same. One is the Korean term and the other is Chinese.

jcwebster

02-24-2006, 03:19

"Suh’s background was yu sool and ship pal gi (Korean kung fu)"
-Lee Joo-Bang (Black Belt Magazine Interview)

http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/blackbelt11-00.htm

Landon

02-24-2006, 09:48

Very interesting indeed...

Although Suh claims to have had many, many teachers across Korea. So I am not sure that it is completely accurate to say that KSW is a synthesis of Yu Sool and Chaun Fa. Anyhow...that would certainly clarify a lot of stylistic similarities that KSW shares with Chinese martial arts, such as animal symbols (praying mantis fist, etc). Although the claim within KSW is that these animal symbols pertain to Korean martial arts and are different from Chinese animal styles...ugh, this is kind of confusing. Who can say what really happened...?

One thing to keep in mind is that Korea is pretty darned close to China...so obviously there's going to be some cultural interchange between the two countries, and martial arts should be no exception to that rule! Particularly the Goh Goo Ryuh area, during the three-kingdom period, seems to have had a lot of interaction with China.

Thanks for the information!!! I would like to see a Ship Pal Ki technique/form, to see what it's like...do you know of any websites (or etc) where I might catch a glimpse?

wildwills

02-24-2006, 09:55

[QUOTE
2) What is Chuan Fa?
QUOTE]

Chuan Fa means "Fist Law or Fist Principle". When the same characters/kanji are translated into Japanese you get "Kempo/Kenpo".

moogong

02-24-2006, 10:09

Thanks for the information!!! I would like to see a Ship Pal Ki technique/form, to see what it's like...do you know of any websites (or etc) where I might catch a glimpse?

I purchased a dvd on Sip Pal Ki through Budo International. It was very informative and explains the style very well. Google budo international and look into their dvd section.

KSWolf

03-04-2006, 21:02

I'm not sure about where Suh learned his his hapki techniques, but I know of his back ground in Sip Pal Gi. JCWebster, What are your sources as for where Suh learned his Hapki techniques? Not to come off as offensive/abrasive, but I need a source a little more reliable than Lee-Joo Bang's Blackbelt inteview.

--Paul

DragonMind

03-04-2006, 21:49

Paul, talk to GM Ji, Han Jae who was there at the time. http://www.sinmoohapkido.com/contact.html

jcwebster

03-05-2006, 06:02

Suh, In-Hyuk (KSW) was born in 1939 and Lee, Joo-Bang (HRD) was born in 1938. These guys crossed paths because of their interest in martial arts and Korean Nationalism. They were peers. If anyone has the scoop on each other and HKD history in general it's these two gentlemen. The problem is that they rarely talk about HKD because it gives partial credit to HKD for the very existance of KSW and HRD.

In 1962, Lee formed the Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do Association that included Suh, In-Hyuk and Pak, In-Shyuk (born 1938) along with other masters. Later in 1962, there was a split among the masters of this orgranization when their partnership collapsed. After this split, Pak began to teach his style of Kong Shin Bup and Suh returned to Pusan and formed his own school (KSW). Suh founded his first school in 1958 (Kuk Sul Kwan - Korean National Technique Gym). This means that Suh was only 19 years old and already the Master of his own school. Suh formed the Kuk Sul Won (Korean National Technique Association) in 1962. Lee was 21 years old when he declared himself GM of HRD.

If someone were to try and declare themselves a GM of a martial art (especially one that stems from HKD) on Budoseek at the young age of 19 or 21 you guys would eat them alive. But, for some reason, it is widely accepted as long as it's a Korean guy that looks like he knows what he's doing.

NOTE: Pak had studied psychology and Buddhist Philosophy at Dong Kuk University. Pak visited hundreds of temples in the Far East to learn and train and the art he founded (Kong Shin Bup) is strongly influenced by these sources along with his Buddhist background. Pak studied with Choi and was another peer to Lee and Suh.

These guys (Lee & Suh) both talk so much about the importance of tradition. None of Choi, Yong-Sul's original nine students , ever opened a school under his name or the name of his school. None of them carried on Choi's "Tradition" (Dai Dong Ryu Hapki Yusul). It shows how brief Tradition can be and how short personal loyalty really is. In my opinion it was ambition and greed that led Lee and Suh to form their own martial arts (partially based on HKD) at such an early age.

You have to keep in mind that after World War 2 ended the Korean goverment began "cultural art preservation programs". Masters of Korean National arts (like painting, pansori, music, etc.) could get recognized as a Kuksa Nim (Korean National art teacher) and even receive government pensions. Some martial artists cashed in on this program and claimed to be teaching Korean Traditional Martial Arts. These guys rewrote martial arts history and added/changed/modified techniques all backed by the Korean government. That's how bad they hated the Japanese. Now, don't get me wrong, I would have probably hated the Japanese too if I had experienced some of the things that happened in Korea but the facts remain, Korean martial arts are mostly based on Chinese and Japanese martial arts. They are not Korean based.

But, enough of my rambling, back to to KSW: So, Suh was the political leader of the KSW. Suh's brother (Seo, In-Sun) however, compiled the portion of the KSW teaching curriculum that stemmed from HKD. If you watch some of Suh's KSW demos his joint locking techniques are not very good or practical.

NOTE: Seo and Suh are pronounced the same. For some reason they chose different phonetic spellings in English.

What's strange is that Suh originally claimed KSW derived from things he learned from Buddhist martial arts (Buldo Musul), Family martial arts (Sada Mu Sul, and Royal martial arts (Kung Jung Mu Sul). Now, however, Suh has changed his claims and says that he learned EVERYTHING from his grand father. He even says that all of the earlier information about KSW history (over 10 books), magazines, interviews, etc. was all mistranslated. :)

Now, about Suh's Chaun Fa/Kung Fu/Sib Pal Gi training. Suh used to claim that he studied Chinese Martial Arts with a Chinese master called Wang, Tai-Eui but now he says that he never practiced Chinese or Japanese based arts, only Korean Traditional martial arts.

About Suh learning from Choi: In the interview in Tadeshi's book, Suh says "Grandmaster Choi, Yong-sool was my neighbor. When I met him, I asked where he came from and what martial arts he trained. And he answered that he is a "Yawara" master from Japanese martial arts. [...] I have never learned anything from them, because I disagreed with their attitudes about Korean martial arts. When I suggested that the three of us should start a traditional Korean Martial arts organization, they said they cannot because know only Japanese martial arts. HIstory tells that Grandmaster Choi never claimed his art as Hapkido, rather he always claimed himself a "Yawara" master. Thus, Grandmaster Choi never influenced me in any way. I am a traditional Korean martial arts grandmaster, and he is a traditional Japanese martial arts grandmaster." (Tedeschi, 2002:93)

He reiterated in a 1998 interview with C.J. Hardman that he lived in the same city as Choi, but studied []"Never with Choi"[/i] (1998:1).

I spoke with my Master (Yu) about the subject and he claims that Suh studied Southern Praying Mantis Kung Fu and mixed it with Hapki Yusul that he learned from his older brother (Seo) who learned from Choi.