View Full Version : Ninjutusu Sword
Geoff_Partridge
09-16-2003, 05:44
I recently returned to Australia for a break from working overseas and finaly finished this sword attached. (3 yrs in the working).
What is the correct name for a hidden cane sword like this one?
De_Franza
09-16-2003, 08:13
Looks nice. send us some more detailed pix.
I think the term is ZATOICHI, but I'd call it Larry.
heretic888
09-16-2003, 09:29
The terms I have most commonly heard are shikomi-zue and shinobi-zue.
Laterz.
ninja sensei
09-16-2003, 15:39
it can be called shirasaya
the old sme's returned broken swordblades to samurai or ninja
after they had made the blades use ful again
the sme returned the blades in a shirasaya.
best regards sensei staffan
Don Roley
09-17-2003, 05:37
Originally posted by ninja sensei
it can be called shirasaya
the old sme's returned broken swordblades to samurai or ninja
after they had made the blades use ful again
the sme returned the blades in a shirasaya.
Uh, no. You don't really know all that much about the subject, do you?
A shira saya is the basic type of scabbard used for storage and such. It is not used for combat. My sword made by the master sword-smith Kaneyoshi is in such a scabbard.
If it was meant to be used like this one is, that is a different story. This blade is meant to be a concealed sword cane. As such it should be called something along the lines of a shikomi-zue. I think that the nature of the blade should be concealed better, but understand that the person making it is only doing the best he can with the knowledge and materials he has. I have a lovely shikomi-zue practice blade with wrapped pattern about it that you can not tell from a real cane at all. I can not make it. In fact, I can not produce the skill that the person who made this blade has demonstrated. But you are not going to fool many people with this thing. Good enough for practice though.
Originally posted by Don Roley
Uh, no. You don't really know all that much about the subject, do you?
Don,
What did you expect from someone who refers to themself as Sensei? :rolleyes:
Jeff
David Craik
09-30-2003, 21:34
True enough, shirasaya is a 'resting scabbard', not a mounting designed for use.
oz_ninja
10-04-2003, 02:03
One must keep in mind, that most of the ninja's weapons were made from broken weapons found on the battle fields. Traditionally the ninja sword was half the size, made from broken samari blades. Another name which has also commonly surfaces for a concealed bladed swoard used by the ninja was Shinobi Katana. Keep in mind that a names for weapons and techniques depends on the region the style came from.
Originally posted by oz_ninja
One must keep in mind, that most of the ninja's weapons were made from broken weapons found on the battle fields. Traditionally the ninja sword was half the size, made from broken samari blades. Another name which has also commonly surfaces for a concealed bladed swoard used by the ninja was Shinobi Katana. Keep in mind that a names for weapons and techniques depends on the region the style came from.
Source?
Jeff
David Craik
10-05-2003, 18:41
Indeed, nonsense. First of all "Shirasaya" means 'resting scabbard' and means the same regardless of where you go in Japan. It is a mounting for storage of a blade, simple as that. What is pictured is a shikomi-zue, a sword cane. These were generally used in the Meiji period by those who refused to give up wearing their swords, and were generally of poor quality.
Has nothing to do with "ninja" in the first place.
johenora
10-06-2003, 10:26
To be more specific and exact. This is not a sword. Technically should be called Katana ,Kodachi, KoKatana or Zue with a discriptive adjective--as to color, use etc. The Japanese language is a very specific language like the Russian language.
-------------
Soulend writes:
Originally posted by Soulend
Indeed, nonsense. First of all "Shirasaya" means 'resting scabbard' and means the same regardless of where you go in Japan. It is a mounting for storage of a blade, simple as that. What is pictured is a shikomi-zue, a sword cane. These were generally used in the Meiji period by those who refused to give up wearing their swords, and were generally of poor quality.
Has nothing to do with "ninja" in the first place.
-------------
As Souleand states a "Shirasaya" means a "resting scabbard" and can be used for more than one purpose and at times for "reawakening."
Is there a textual, authoritative source that anyone is aware of which asserts regarding its use etc. Can you elaborate more on this? I was told the same. Also for it appears that the Daito Ryu disseminator and one of the last Samurai of his time,Sokaku Takeda no Minamoto Masayoshi, occasionally, would carry a blade so mounted disguised as a cane. He also carried one diguised in a staff after the edict prohibiting the wearing of Katana etc. Later he shifted to a more intricatly disguised device. We know who actually has a replica of the intricate device. Some would say "ingenius devices."Thank you Souleand for your most accurate input.
[QUOTE] To be more specific and exact. This is not a sword. Technically should be called Katana ,Kodachi, KoKatana or Zue with a discriptive adjective--as to color, use etc. The Japanese language is a very specific language like the Russian language.
Ummm, all languages are specific. That's what make communication possible. What are you trying to say? Having studied Russian for a few years, I haven't found it any more specific than english.
johenora
10-06-2003, 19:05
Hi Jason;
You are 100% correct. All langages are specific as to the parts of speach --such as to nouns,verbs etc.I guess what I really meant to say from a specific viewpoint: English,e.g.,is kinda of a flexible language---Truly I do not undrsatnd the reasons for this.
As a sword is a sword so to speak in America. In America we usually do not say long sword or short sword kinda.But to the Japanese--the size etc effects the nomenclature of the specific "object".
Japanese have a special case for counting inanimate objects --like paper, books. The Japanese language to me is impossible to learn for they are all correct. Whoever knows me, knows ---I am an old saw blade or an old rusty sword blade? Hard for me to learn until yiu hit me on the head a few times. Maybe it is all those brain concussions I have gotten.
Why other posters rendered were many different definitions to that "sword stick" or "sword cane" or walking stick may explain this.Doesn't it have to do with function of the japanese language. All the posters were correct so to speak.We tend to be more general in usage in American/English. I think Japanese in their language tend to be more specific.If the sword cane was made of bamboo,it may not have been called the same?
It would have been fun to have a "poll" or is it "pole" on this sword cane--pardon the pun -not intentional. Please do not think I am being sarcastic. Same sounds for both words --so context is critical. Forgive me but I assure you I am not trying to be a snob. I have gotten in trouble so many times trying to explain my view of the Japanese language and I try not to be biased or prejudiced.
You , Jason,you certainly have have posed to me--an awesome question. My answer gets worse in an awesome way.I am tending to ramble,flounder and lecture which is not good.I could have skirted you question abd with proper Japanese etiquette said: "Ah so desuka?".The sound would have been different.So please fogive me.
That sword cane , as a side light, is totally illegal and a felony in California. And I guess also illegal in Texas.
I guess if we put a photograph of a Japanese war fan or several different fans on this net and ask what is this? I swear the same will happen. Multiples.I wish I had the ability to scan a photograph and post it on Budo Seek.net which is a great network. But i am very computer dumb in comparison. Someday however-----
I would call the "cane blade" in English a "concealed sword". Not the Japanese. I do not think a Japanese would call it as such--sword of(no) Concealment
Like Eskimos have a hundred meanings or words for SNOW because they got all kinds of snows. Japanese have all kinds of SWORDS so many words for sword--like a SHINKEN is a live blade, bokken -wooden sword and different words for it such as suburito etc --examine the Kanji--wow.
In other words we Americans can say: "Give me a "couple of hotdogs"!This is or is it not a command . Imperative case? Who knows between the speakers? The inflection of voice is important-What couple ?Then I say 2 hotdogs.He says how can the "dog be hot".The Russian and Japanese usually would say "2 frankfurters."
Tough to say a couple of Hotdogs in Russian or Japanese. It gets hilarious.. One has to say with specificity--"two hotdogs." Same with Japanese. Also we tend to in our "Americanese" language borrow words like "potato" and "exactomento" and this is at times good. Many foreigners have trouble with American sounds and meaning. Piano is tough to say in Japanese because the have no letter"P"-they have developed a third way of expressing this in writing and in speakinig. Also mutiple problems with "L" and "R" .
As you know they have Kanji,Hiragana, Katakana,etc etcSo, to say or write out the word "reasonable" they have developed a way to do this to add flexibility to their language. Is there a Japanese equivalent word for "reasonable"?
They use "no" in the possesive case and I frequently get the meaning backwards sometimes. My Japanese colleague Jin Iizumi Sensei and I when we try to express ourselves in Japanese it sometimes gets hilarious. I usually messing up what I am trying to say as to tense etc.
As you know semantics is the function of words. I am not a semantics expert nor pretend to be a Japanese language expert. Japanese has driven me up the wall since 1954. I am still a neophyte theron.
The word "Ko" for example has many and I mean many different meanings and "Ko"has even gotten me in trouble on the mats. It can mean"like this" or "arc"or 'small" etc.I am always saying "Wakarimasen"
--meaning I do "NOT understand."
Have you seen the Japanese themselves using their forefinger on their hand like writing on sand to express themselves in Kanji?
I am so baffled by Japanese. It is an AMAZING language.
If someone reading this post can come to my help and better discribe for me the "specificity" problem of usage in the Japanese language I would certainly appreciate it. The more I study Japanese the more there is that is confusing to me. For example in a code or cryptographic way they can reverse words and you do not know what they are saying or talking about. Kinda of like our pidgeon English. Example "Sado" vs "Odsa"--is it the Island where the prison is? They have put in the "Hidden Meaning'--like the "hidden Sword Blade".
I was sent through a Russian high intensity ,total immersion speed course by the US Government in 1959. Russian being a formal language taken from the Greek and brought to Russia bt St. Cyril with its Cyrillic alphabet to me was a piece of cake compared to Japanese.
Matta Ai Masho (Until we meet again")
Jay Bell
10-06-2003, 19:36
I was sent through a Russian high intensity ,total immersion speed course by the US Government in 1959. Russian being a formal language taken from the Greek and brought to Russia bt St. Cyril with its Cyrillic alphabet to me was a piece of cake compared to Japanese.
Monterey?
Russian being a formal language taken from the Greek and brought to Russia bt St. Cyril with its Cyrillic alphabet
Thats an interesting theory.
What evidence do you have to support this?
Russian, according to all the literature Ive read, is based on Proto Slavonic - an existing language when St Cyril left Byzantium to minister to the Rus and Slavs
johenora
10-07-2003, 03:35
Hello Mr. Robbins:
You are correct it is Slavic as you say. Russian language has 33 letters;21 consonats and 10 vowels. The alphabet is derived Greek-Cyrillic--big impact. Most of the words are Slavic and some words come from outside Russia like "library" or "Pectopah". Is such words from Greek or German? My point was it is formal language and very specific due to grammar etc. You have trouble communicating to some what is a couple of hotdogs when you translate from British to Russian. This was my main thrust to show how one has to be very specific when discribing "foreign things".But picture is worth 1000 words as they say.
Good for science,mathematics,medicine,scholarly writing etc.4 slavic languages also use Cyril: Ukaraine,Bulgaria,Serbo -Croate, and Byelorussian with some slight differences.
Generally ,I meant all present day Russia letters are cyrillic derivation from the scholar. About 1709 A.D.,Peter the Great started reform. The letter "E" was introduced by N. Karmann as noted author but is not in keyboard. Do you know if the language is specific and very formalized?
You are most correct and I was over generalization on this to show language semantic problems.Especially in what is that sword--Bud K Catalog would say that is "Traditional Shirasaya Katana "priced at only $19.95 and carbon steel blade of 27" etc and with discriptive picture it is OK as discription. However, the Japanese sword experts have to be accurate without snobbishness. The sword was discribed differently due to specificity.All were correct but different and all knew it was a finely made "sword cane" and specific to the period when popular. Today it is more popular. Many people are buying the canes from Bud K store. See internet for pictures. This one appeared hand made and not factory made. In old days they were cut or made from broken swords that were longer. Japanese sword evaluators/authenticators tend to be specific and very accurate in labels.Also the Japanese language/etiquette causes this.Requirement of papers etc for authenticity purposes.Some Nihonto (swords) were signed to prove the area made ,maker etc.
No sarcasm or offense to you.Hoping you now you know what I meant. I used analogy in my 30 second haste and not 200% accurate. Thank you for your nice input.
One must keep in mind, that most of the ninja's weapons were made from broken weapons found on the battle fields. Traditionally the ninja sword was half the size, made from broken samari blades. Another name which has also commonly surfaces for a concealed bladed swoard used by the ninja was Shinobi Katana. Keep in mind that a names for weapons and techniques depends on the region the style came from.
Im pretty sure that the Shinobi Katana is really called the Gatana. It looks like it is a double edged straight Katana. It shorter though. I heard that somewhere.
And the cane sword was the Zatoichi. It was used when a ninja went undercover. (probably as an old man or something) Again, I heard that somewhere.
Jay Bell
07-13-2004, 12:23
Im pretty sure that the Shinobi Katana is really called the Gatana. It looks like it is a double edged straight Katana. It shorter though. I heard that somewhere.
Uhm..no...
And another sword was the ninja-to. It had the same size as a wakizashi, but it was straight. I read in a different thread that the Ninja-to was a hollywood sword? Im not to sure about that though. I dont have links to sites that say that, but I read somewhere that it was real. Mabye the were lying on that site.
Uhm..no...
Why do you say that?
Wait no. You are right. I read the text wrong. The martial art was ShinobiKatanajutsu, not shinobigatanajutsu. Is that art even real? The site said it was.
Dale Seago
07-13-2004, 13:41
Im pretty sure that the Shinobi Katana is really called the Gatana. It looks like it is a double edged straight Katana. It shorter though. I heard that somewhere. . .
. . .And the cane sword was the Zatoichi. It was used when a ninja went undercover. . .
. . .And another sword was the ninja-to. It had the same size as a wakizashi, but it was straight. . .
. . .The martial art was ShinobiKatanajutsu, not shinobigatanajutsu. . .
God help us. I don't even know where to start with this.
Jay Bell
07-13-2004, 13:49
I feel your pain, Dale.
Edward,
Katana, used in the midst of other words, becomes "shinobi-gatana". It's a language situation, not a different art.
What you have stated here from what you found on that site is inaccurate as well.
Don Roley
07-13-2004, 19:41
God help us. I don't even know where to start with this.
Remember the "Solomon Short" quote, "I am all in favor of getting dangerous weapons out of the hands of idiots. Let's start with typewriters."
So a Gatana is real? Someone please help me out here an tell me the swords of the ninja. Im here to learn, not be made fun of. If none of you are making fun of me, then sorry, I missread your post.
Jay Bell
07-14-2004, 16:04
A Katana is a sword. A shinobi-gatana is also a sword.
David Craik
07-15-2004, 16:30
The "K" sound in Japanese is changed to a "G" sound when the word is combined with another one.
Japanese White Oak = shiro kashi / shirogashi
Shinobi katana = shinobigatana
This is why the slang "Gi" is a bit odd. If it is combined with "Do", "Keiko", or "Judo" it would be "Dogi", "Keikogi", or "Judogi". By itself it would be "ki", not "gi".
As for the "shinbigatana", it apparently is basically a shoto blade mounted and sheathed as a daito. There were no "ninja" chokuto - straight bladed "ninja" swords. These are a Hollywood invention.
Oh ok. Now everything seems a little bit clearer. I guess I should study japanese a little harder. I have these books: Kanji- Pictographix by Michael Rowley, Easy Hiragana by Fujihiko Kaneda and Easy Katakana by Tina Wells.
David Craik
07-18-2004, 01:07
It looks like it is a double edged straight Katana. It shorter though. I heard that somewhere. . .
Katana, by definition, are not double-edged. The only Japanese swords that I am aware of that have a double edge are the very ancient (and inferior) copies of Chinese swords, which were forged long before the samurai (or ninja) existed.
. . .And the cane sword was the Zatoichi. It was used when a ninja went undercover. . .
As stated before, a sword cane is a shikomi-zue. Zatoichi is a movie.
. . .And another sword was the ninja-to. It had the same size as a wakizashi, but it was straight. . .
Yes, straight out of Hollywood.
They do make double edged Katanas now.
kirigirisu
07-24-2004, 15:27
Yes, straight out of Hollywood.
David Craik
07-25-2004, 09:23
They do make double edged Katanas now.
These have no historical precedent, and don't exibit any characteristics of a Japanese katana blade, so I don't consider them katana. If you know of any differentially tempered katana blades in which the partial mune is softer than the ha (on both sides), I'd be interested in hearing about it. Even so, it would be nothing more than a well-executed novelty.
Like the 'sakabatou', if you ever learn how a Japanese sword is used or resheathed, you will see how ridiculous the concept of a 'double edged katana' is. Either that, or you will see how good your local hospital is at re-attaching severed appendages.
It is also of note that there is not a single 'ninja sword' in any legitimate museum anywhere in Japan. Not one. Perhaps you have to go over to Sho Kasugi's house to see those.
BTW, Japanese words aren't pluralized by adding an "s" to them. One katana, two katana. One ninja, two ninja.
If someone makes a double edged katana, I'd really like to see it. Do you have a source for that Mist?
The only thing I can think of that comes even close to that would be Kissaki-Moroha-Zukuri, which is a VERY RARE style. It has two edges, but the back edge is not sharp along the whole edge, it's only sharp for 1/3 to 1/2 of the back edge nearest the tip. The most famous sword of this style is called Kogarasu Maru, which is classified as a national treasure of Japan.
There is also another VERY RARE style of Japanese sword with two edges called Ryo-Shinogi-Zukuri. This style is sharp for the full length of both edges, but it's a straight blade, not curved like a katana. Sometimes very long spear points would be modified for use as a sword in this style. Here's an example of a spear point altered for use as a ryo-shinogi-zukuri sword blade. http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/ken/04009.html
David Craik
07-27-2004, 05:41
After some searching on the net, I found that Cold Steel does make a "double edge katana", with a blade similar (in appearance) to the Kogarasu Maru. Remember though, that Mist was referring to historical blades originally, not modern-made swords.
I am under the impression that the "edge" on the back of the Kogarasu Maru is not really an edge at all, but simply a ricasso. But of course, either way it is a tachi, not a katana.
It's hard to say if the back edge was sharp or not without seeing the original. Fancing making a trip to the Imperial Collection to check it out? :)
A little bit of web searching shows up several references that the back edge was sharp, but how many of them are repeating an incorrect reference (including me above)? The predominant blade shape before Kogarasu maru appears to be the chokuto which was single edged, so we have the straight single edge chokuto design before Kogarasu and the curved single edge tachi design after Kogarasu. Why would Kogarasu have two edges when the predominant designs in use immediately before and after it are single edged? Kogarasu seems to have been an experiment. The blade style was repeated occaisionally in later periods, but appears to have never become widely popular. The warriors overwhelmingly preferred single edged blades. I'm inclined to think that Kogarasu became so highly prised for several reasons. At the time it was made it was probably an exceptionally well made blade regardless of it's unusual design, it's associated with leading members of a very famous historical family and it's unusual compared to other swords of the same period.
You may well be right and the back edge is a false edge, unsharpened (a ricasso is a blunt area of the blade just in front of the hilt, there's no such thing as a ricasso near the point), but I'd be a little bit careful reading too much from sword techniques still taught today. Kogarasu Maru is over 1000 years old but much of the sword techniques taught today derive from periods much later than when Kogarasu was made, a large propotion of them from the Edo period if I'm not mistaken. How noto was performed at the time when Kogarasu was made may be very different to how we learn to do it today. The design of the sword has evolved over time, doesn't it also make sense that swordsmanship techniques also evolved over the same time as well?
David Craik
07-28-2004, 04:48
Absolutely right, Gareth. Dunno why I typed "ricasso" when I was thinking of a 'false edge'. Whoops.
Yeah, the Kogarasu predates the ryu system, and thus we have little idea how a tachi of this type was used. I certainly don't recall stating anything to the effect that we can make inferences to this effect based on observation of later forms using the katana. For one thing, since it was worn slung and edge-down I doubt there was any formal method of noto - at least not anything resembling what we have today.
I'm of the opinion that early swordsmanship was a lot less standardized then with the advent of the ryu. You found what worked for you on the battlefield, and provided you lived long enough, maybe taught it to some other folk. But of course this is all conjecture on my part.
I have a link on my buddy list of a very cool sword selling website. Hold on for awile, because I will try to give you the direct link. This sword website sells all kinds of swords.
Yes I do know that the double edged Katana is a fantasy sword.
I dont know why any one would like a double edged Katana. Its a lot harder to knock someone out with one. You would have to use the side of the blade.
Ok. Here it is:
www.weaponmasters.com
Find the Traditional Made Katana Section, then go to the 11th page. Miyamoto Musashi's Style Katana is also on that page.
David Craik
07-28-2004, 16:08
That looks similar to the one Cold Steel has. A lot of the swords on that site are junk though, though there are some decent ones - like the Chen offerings.
I dont know why any one would like a double edged Katana. Its a lot harder to knock someone out with one. You would have to use the side of the blade.
Why in the heck would you knock someone out with a sword? :laugh:
What if you were in a situation and you could not kill someone?
Well, I guess you could use your body to K.O. a person, but using the blunt edge of a sword, I think, would be easier.
Jay Bell
08-06-2004, 21:03
The "K.O." mentality is typically reserved for sport combatives... Yes, people get knocked out in real life. On the other hand, looking for a knockout opportunity is real life is one of the easiest ways I know of to be defeated. Taking away someone's ability to harm you (or others) is primary.
Don Roley
08-06-2004, 22:13
Pssst! Jay!
Check out the age of the guy you are trying to have a legitimate conversation with.
Webmaster
08-06-2004, 22:37
I agree with Jay. Why would you "want" to knock out someone with a sword? It was not designed to do this. Use a jo or bo.
Not being a expert with regard to the sword, but I would think that striking with either the flat or the unsharpened edge of the sword would potentially break the sword. It just wasn't designed to have stress placed on it from those angles.
There is a Japanese manga(comic)/anime(animation) series called Rurouni Kenshin. It's a "samurai" story setting and the main character has a katana with a reversed edge. The justification for this is that he doesn't want to kill someone unless he absolutely can't avoid it, so he uses the blunt edge to "knock out" his opponants whenever possible and only resorts to the sharp edge as a last resort. This is the primary source for the recent interest in reverse edged katana, along with a fair amount of other bunk/nonsense depicted in that manga/anime series which sounds believable to the uninformed but has no actual evidence for being real.
Although I collect manga and anime, this is one series I've deliberately avoided because I know it's complete nonsense and it would just annoy me rather than entertain me. I have been curious to watch a little bit of it to see if they show the main character doing noto (resheathing the sword) in the usual manner without slicing his hand or cutting up the koiguchi (the "mouth" of the scabbard).
I've studied ZNKR Seitei Gata Iaido in the past, one style of Japanese swordsmanship, and it does not teach any techniques for knocking someone out with a sword (it does have one technique for striking someone in the solar plexus with the end of the tsuka to temporarily stun them, but that's as close as ZNKR Seitei gets to knocking someone out). I'm currently studying Shinkendo, a different Japanese sword style and it doesn't teach how to knock someone out with a sword. I also have some familiarity with Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaido and I've never heard any reference to techniques for knocking someone out with a sword in that style either. On top of that, I've read Musashi's Book of Five Rings (Miyamoto Musashi is one of the most famous swordsmen in Japanese history) several times and cannot remember him advocating trying to knock someone out with a sword.
I realise that's only the tip of the iceberg, but please, if people are going to argue that using a sword to knock someone out is a valid technique, please include references to a recognised sword style that teaches it.
If you're trying to knock someone out, the last item you should be trying to do that with is several feet of sharpened steel, even if it has a blunt edge. My iaito (blunt alloy training sword) can permanantly injure someone if I hit them too hard with the back edge in the wrong location. I could easly shatter the bones in someone's arm or leg with it, and if I hit them too hard in the kneck/throat, the potential for permanant spine damage (causing permanent paralysis) or causing them to suffer from asphyxiation due to a swollen windpipe is very real.
If you're trying to knock them out because they're too skilled for you to kill, you have even LESS chance of knocking them out than you have of killing them. If you can't figure that out for yourself, you shouldn't be playing with swords made from anything harder than cheese. If you're trying to knock them out because they are someone you need to avoid trying to kill, what the hell are you doing fighting them with a sword in the first place? You're far more likely to kill them, even by accident, with a sword than knock them out.
Don Roley
08-07-2004, 05:50
Not being a expert with regard to the sword, but I would think that striking with either the flat or the unsharpened edge of the sword would potentially break the sword. It just wasn't designed to have stress placed on it from those angles.
Actually, the flat or the back is the best place to hit with full power. The edge is rather brittle. The true secret of the the Japanese swordmakers was how they melded an edge that was super sharp but brittle to a back and sides that were more flexible and able to take punishment. If you made the entire blade out of the folded steel type that we are all so familiar with from stories, the entire sword would not hold up very well to the stress of real blows.
The section where these two parts of the sword meet is usually visible with a wavy line called a hamon in Japanese. The thickest part of the blade, called the shinogi, is behind this line. This is where most percusion strikes take place for in- fighting. You recieve blows with the flat and bash the other guys sword out of the way with either the flat or the back with all the Japanese styles I have studied so far.
David Craik
08-07-2004, 11:23
What if you were in a situation and you could not kill someone?
Well, I guess you could use your body to K.O. a person, but using the blunt edge of a sword, I think, would be easier.
"Knocking someone out" has nothing to do with Japanese sword arts. And in what surreal and fantastic dimension of the 21st century are you going to be "in a situation" with a freaking sword on your hip?
Besides that, striking someone with the mune is very likely to fracture their skull, killing them anyway - which is why this Rurouni Kenshin nonsense is such a steaming pile. If someone can point out to me a single legitimate koryu that practices hitting someone with a mune I shall be eternally grateful.
The sword is a killing weapon. It is forged with the singular purpose of opening live human flesh, and it is the recognition of this very lethality that gave rise to many of the philosophies and principles within the various ryu, i.e. Setsuninto, Katsujinken. This is why the study of the sword is taken very seriously. You want to knock someone out? Try this:
http://www.directsports.com/images/bats/a111381.jpg
Webmaster
08-07-2004, 13:26
Don, thanks for the info. I knew that the blade of the sword was designed to be flexible to absorb/deflect strikes from the opponents blade, but I would have never thought of using the sword as a big metal club. Then again, I have never trained in any sword arts! You learn something new every day. :)
David Craik
08-07-2004, 15:43
The hamon is not neccesarily a separate piece of steel welded (or melded) to the blade. It is produced by the application of clay which causes that part to cool more slowly. This results in it being harder and consequently more brittle. All the steel was still folded to remove impurities from the steel.
Of course, all of this depends on the blade construction. One can consider the ha to be separate in wariba-gitae and makuri-gitae construction, the hamon to be separate in hon-sanmai-awase gitae and shiho-zumi-gitae, yet the blade is pretty much homogenous in maru-gitae.
Aren't swords cool?
Webmaster
08-07-2004, 18:09
Aren't swords cool?
Yeah, they are! :) I think I will stick with the M1A1 though. The Marine Corps and a lot of competitive shooting taught me the value of reaching waaayy out and touching someone :D
David Craik
08-07-2004, 19:50
The Marine Corps and a lot of competitive shooting taught me the value of reaching waaayy out and touching someone :D
You too, Mr. Carver? ;) Semper Fi.
Webmaster
08-07-2004, 20:47
You too, Mr. Carver? ;) Semper Fi.
Yep Gunny, almost 14 years worth (79-92). I was a SSgt/0193 & held several additional MOS' incuding 8531. Got out following Desert Storm on one of the early out programs that the Corps was offering for all of the career Marines (while denying reenlistment to all of the S-Birds) in targeted occupational specialties. I also did two year in the USMCR, and hated it with a passion. A little hard for an active duty SNCO to make that transition to the Reserve ranks. I quickly learned that they just don't "think" the same as their active duty counterparts. ;)
Semper Fi!
I agree with Jay. Why would you "want" to knock out someone with a sword? It was not designed to do this. Use a jo or bo.
Not being a expert with regard to the sword, but I would think that striking with either the flat or the unsharpened edge of the sword would potentially break the sword. It just wasn't designed to have stress placed on it from those angles.
tAKE A LOOK AND TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK .http://www.martialinfo.com/styles/s...%20T.%20Ellerbe
:bow: respect for your style and you. and my style
Webmaster
08-07-2004, 22:57
tAKE A LOOK AND TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK .http://www.martialinfo.com/styles/s...%20T.%20Ellerbe
:bow: respect for your style and you. and my style
Sorry, but the link does not work. Can you just clue me in on what to look for?
Also, please don't forget to sign your name to each post, per forum rules.
Sorry, but the link does not work. Can you just clue me in on what to look for?
Also, please don't forget to sign your name to each post, per forum rules.
I have been getting a lot of flack about my style just take a look and tell me if you know any of the peolpe listed on the site. Jamie is our soke. The last
link might not have been wrote wrihgt take a look.
http://www.martialinfo.com/styles/survey/nameexp.asp?person=Jamie%20T.%20Ellerbe :bow: lp1
Sorry, but the link does not work. Can you just clue me in on what to look for?
Also, please don't forget to sign your name to each post, per forum rules.
I have been getting a lot of flack about my style just take a look and tell me if you know any of the peolpe listed on the site. Jamie is our soke. The last
link might not have been wrote wrihgt take a look.
http://www.martialinfo.com/styles/survey/nameexp.asp?person=Jamie%20T.%20Ellerbe :bow: lp1
Webmaster
08-07-2004, 23:46
I am still not sure what it is that you are asking or why. I am not a Ninpo guy, but I do recognize the heads of the Bujinkan & Genbukan. From what I know, these are the only two "legitimate" traditional systems of Ninjutsu. Ronald Duncan is a name I recognize, but I had no idea was involved in Ninjutsu. The last I heard was that many years ago he taught Karate, or something like that. From what I have read, the Koga schools are extinct (something about the head of the system dying in a car accident many years ago?). Jamie Eberle I have heard of through a friend in Oklahoma, but I am not familiar with his system of Ninjutsu.
Jamie is the head of the 10 Mikeba Ryu family schools his Soke Nagano Shigazato Mikeba left him the family Mikeba Ryu scrolls Have you heard of
Mikeba Ryu this system was passed from father to son jamie father
and his soke was friends and his soke had no way to pass on his art
but his father told his soke that he would let his frist born be his student
and so he did and at the age of 6 he was tought and his soke was about
to die so he passed the family scrolls on to him and he became the
8 soke this happend to him at the age of 24. now what I'm asking is
do you think this is posiable. the styles he was tought was
Mikeba Ryu combined techniques from Gyokushin Ryu Koppojutsu, Nagano Ryu Jujutsu, Ugai Koga Ryu Ninjutsu, Akutagawa Ryu Jutaijutsu, , and Daito Ryu Oshikiuchi or Aikijujutsu into one system and organized it by naming it (MIKEBA RYU NINJUTSU). can this really happend to a person. :bow:
My respect. lp1
Webmaster
08-08-2004, 00:51
OK, you want honest? Probably not what you are looking for, but here it goes.
Here are some of the things that send out alarm bells for me.
1. None of the ryuha listed are in the list at Koryu.com. Theirs is a very extensive list of both major and even some smaller family ryuha.
2. Anytime someone throws "it's a secret" into the mix, as in "secret ninja families", I get suspicious.
3. I was not aware that Japanese use middle names. Could be wrong there, but I have not seen this before.
4. The Japanese are very traditional, and sad to say, very xenophobic. They tend to not like or trust anyone that is not Japanese and foreigners. It would seem to me to be very unlikely that the head of a Japanese Ninjutsu system (or any other art for that matter) would pass along the inheritance of a ryu to someone that is (1) not of their own family, even of distant relation, or (2) not Japanese. The norm would be for him to adopt a trusted senior student or other practitioner in the system, and pass the inheritance along in this manner.
Anyway, the bottom line is that what you are suggesting with regard to Mr. Eberle's inheritance of a traditional system of Japanese martial arts is very unlikely at best, and totally fraudulent at the worse.
Sorry if this is not the reinforcement that you were looking for, but I assume that you wanted my honest opinion.
BTW, please do not highjack any more threads looking for a different opinion. I honestly do not think that you will get one.
Actually, the flat or the back is the best place to hit with full power. The edge is rather brittle. The true secret of the the Japanese swordmakers was how they melded an edge that was super sharp but brittle to a back and sides that were more flexible and able to take punishment. If you made the entire blade out of the folded steel type that we are all so familiar with from stories, the entire sword would not hold up very well to the stress of real blows.
I'm not etirely sure what you mean by that Don. All the steel in a traditionally made Japanese sword is folded. The smith might make several seperate pieces of steel which he uses to form the core/sides/edge/back of the blade, but every single one of those pieces was folded when the smith formed each seperate piece of steel. Making a blade from a single piece of folded tamahagane (the type of steel produced by a traditional Japanese Tatara smelter) probably wouldn't be a very good idea, but modern steels out-perform tamahagane in every measurable way as far as strength and durability is concerned.
Within Japan today there are legal restrictions in place limiting what materials a smith can make a blade from, but in other countries there are talented smiths making high quality Japanese style sword blades who don't have to work under those restrictions and can use any modern high performance steel they can get their hands on. The difference in how tough a blade made from modern high grade steel is compared to traditional Japanese tamahagane steel is staggering.
I think it's worth pointing out that when the Japanese started trading with Europe in the 1600's, European steel was prized in Japan for it's high quality compared to Japanese steel. Japanese steel was not prized by the Europeans. The lamination techniques the Japanese smiths used was in many ways a method of compensating for the limited quality of the steel available to them in the first place.
David Craik
08-08-2004, 10:29
Such a shame the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten has not been translated in it's entirety and posted on the web (yes, I realize what a Herculean task that would be). That would put to rest so many questionable claims.
As the Skosses don't consider any form of ninjutsu/ninpo (practiced as a stand alone art) to be a koryu, there will never be any sort of 'ninja' art listed at koryu.com.
Lord, trying to decipher lp1's weirdly formatted post gives one a monstrous headache. But from the site he linked, I can only come to the conclusion that whoever made up that history simply patched together a bunch of Japanese names in order to try to give it some legitimacy. Why do all these people have two family names? Like Akechi mentioned in the other thread, both Nagano and Yamada are last names. And I've never heard of the Japanese having middle names either, but perhaps Don could shed some light on whether this is possible.
Someone should also review their Japanese. The 'dai' in the term dai-soke isn't the character for "big" or "great", but rather an element which means 'in place of'. A dai soke is one who temporarily stands in for the soke, due to illness or extended absence, not a 'super soke'.
Actually, the use of the term 'soke' in such an art is a thread in itself, but I can't be bothered. I'll just leave you with this:
http://www.koryu.com/library/wbodiford1.html
George Kohler
08-08-2004, 11:26
As the Skosses don't consider any form of ninjutsu/ninpo (practiced as a stand alone art) to be a koryu, there will never be any sort of 'ninja' art listed at koryu.com.
Hi David,
The problem with this, at least for Togakure-ryu, is that it is not a stand alone art. Togakure-ryu has at least the following:
ninpo (intonjutsu, hensojutsu, ect.)
sword
taijutsu
kakushi buki
tenmon chimon
strategy
ect.
David Craik
08-08-2004, 12:45
Hi George! Shouldn't you be back at e-budo moderating something?:D
I meant by 'stand-alone', that ninpo/ninjutsu/shinobijutsu which isn't part of the curriculum of a documented koryu sogo bujutsu. I cannot speak for or against their position, as I am simply and admittedly too ignorant of ninpo arts to speak about them intelligently. I only wanted to point out that one will not find ninjutsu arts listed at Koryu.com:
http://www.koryu.com/library/ninjutsu.html
Don Roley
08-08-2004, 22:27
Anyway, the bottom line is that what you are suggesting with regard to Mr. Eberle's inheritance of a traditional system of Japanese martial arts is very unlikely at best, and totally fraudulent at the worse.
Agreed.
There is just one thing I look for when trying to determine if a ninjutsu art is legitimate or not. JUST ONE!
Are they known in Japan?
That is it, nothing more. If there is a link to Japan that can be proven and there are sources in Japan that can be checked, then as far as I am concerned, they are legit. So far, nobody who has claimed some sort of super secret ninjutsu style has ever been able to trace their art past some guy living outside of Japan.
It is just too much to beleive that a Japanese art would be unknown in Japan. Things just do not work that way. If they prove a link to Japan, then we get into some debates that may be over some of our heads. But if they can't prove even a Japanese origin, they are not worth talking about. Oh, and if they are too secret to let the Japanese know they exist, why are they babbling on the world wide web of the internet?
kirigirisu
08-08-2004, 23:09
As the Skosses don't consider any form of ninjutsu/ninpo (practiced as a stand alone art) to be a koryu, there will never be any sort of 'ninja' art listed at koryu.com.
[/b]
The Skosses, like most learned people, are entitled to their own perspectives, based on the research they've conducted and the sources they consider to be non-sus-like and such.
Knowledgeable as they are, I don't consider koryu.com to be the end-all, be-all, last word on all things ancient, traditional, and documented. Good source of legitimate info on a good many things, but not all.
Lord, trying to decipher lp1's weirdly formatted post gives one a monstrous headache.
That is because so-called lp1 is more than likely the former "Ultimate Evolution" in all things 1337 and would-be "ninjer" what goes by the alleged handle of "Wei Wu," the New York Chinaman with mad pimpin' connections to the "cribs" and "latin kings" and "pwns" "fbis" and "juges" and will separate your lingual muscle from the rest of you should you besmirch his honor.
http://www.williamhung.net/photos/Performance/1.jpg
Besides that, striking someone with the mune is very likely to fracture their skull, killing them anyway - which is why this Rurouni Kenshin nonsense is such a steaming pile.
I find it strange that you qualify the anime as a steaming pile for this and pass over the guy that catches fire at will, the one that goes so fast he's invisible, the weird swords (like the ultra thin ultra long belt/whip like sword), the priest mages, the special techniques, etc...
In other words, it's ANIME, it's not a historical documentary. I liked the anime, I tracked down an Iai teacher because of it, 4 years later I'm still whacking away at it, never considered buying a so-called 'sakaba-to' and laugh at the concept in reality. But hey, we're talking about a cartoon. Writing it off as sh*t because it's not realistic... Aren't all cartoons like that?
I would agree that there's a lot of people taking the anime WAY too seriously. It's fiction, and people should watch it with that in mind. If they don't, well, we can whack them with a reverse-blade sword. I'm sure they'll recover... heh.
And now, back to your regular programming... :bow:
---
Sebastien Leclair
David Craik
08-09-2004, 11:17
There's nothing strange about it really, Sebastian. I passed over the dude that catches on fire, etc. quite simply because I don't watch the stuff - ergo I had no idea that they existed and haven't the slightest interest in it.
In fact, I never even would have heard of Kenshin if it weren't for the tiresome legions of Ritalin-popping young'uns coming on sword forums and summarily raising the noise-to-signal ratio by asking where to get a sakabatou, how they can join the 'Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu', how you perform "Dou Ryu Sen" in real life, and having the belief, a la Mr. Plum up there, that whacking ne'er-do-wells with the mune of a sword is a legitimate tactic - which is what I meant by "Rurouni Kenshin nonsense", not the anime itself.
All quite simple really. :D
If a sword would be destroyed becouse it hit someone, then that sword is a piece of crap.
Ya know, now that I think about it, hitting someone in the head with a metal sword would kill him/her. What about a bokken? Wait...Miyamoto Musashi killed several people with a bokken. You would have to hit the enemy in pressure points to knock him/her out. Am I right? Or am I just being a stupid kid who lives in a fantasy land who has know idea about the real world.
Do any of you guy know of a discussion forums about ancient arts of war. Thats what I am into. I cant take all the crap people have been saying to me. I need the right message board. A board that talks about anciant arts of war.
kirigirisu
08-09-2004, 15:58
If a sword would be destroyed becouse it hit someone, then that sword is a piece of crap.
Not necessarily.
The wielder might be full of crap as well as extremely incompetent.
Bad cuts have been known to FUBAR good swords.
Ya know, now that I think about it, hitting someone in the head with a metal sword would kill him/her.
Not necessarily.
See above statement concerning incompetent owner/operator of sword in question.
Hmm. You haven't been around too many swords have you?
What about a bokken? Wait...Miyamoto Musashi killed several people with a bokken.
Yes. Big boat oar of an attitude adjuster, according to most accounts.
I have one of those. Good for a bit of gnarly blunt-force trauma.
You would have to hit the enemy in pressure points to knock him/her out.
You haven't been around too many bokken, either, have you?
It'd be a lot easier to kill people with the bokken than "knock them out."
See David's reference to Louisville Sluggers.
Am I right? Or am I just being a stupid kid who lives in a fantasy land who has know idea about the real world.
The latter, minus the "know," adding a "no."
Jay Bell
08-09-2004, 16:00
If a sword would be destroyed becouse it hit someone, then that sword is a piece of crap.
S'that right? Hrm...I guess those broken swords on Japanese battlefields were made by crap-makers then...
I cant take all the crap people have been saying to me. I need the right message board.
So you're looking for a forum to coddle you?
kirigirisu
08-09-2004, 16:08
Do any of you guy know of a discussion forums about ancient arts of war.
Yes.
Thats what I am into.
Could have fooled me.
I cant take all the crap people have been saying to me.
My heart bleeds cold, black bile for you, you thin-skinned little girl.
I need the right message board.
You need a few more years of maturity and possibly a couple of good thwacks to smack some common sense into you.
A board that talks about anciant arts of war.
I know of no board that talks about "anciant" arts of war.
There is a secret place on the net that will teach you about the Ancient Dinosaur Sokes and the Deadly Art of Pangean "Inappropriate Touch" Kung-Faux, what was filtered through the eons by the Space Alien Greys from Area 52 and their Republican Lizard People masters, later passed down through the Ancient Monks of Hollow Earth and the Ghosts of the Dark Priestesses of the Lost Continent of Mu, but I don't think you're worthy of the secrets, young grasshopper... :wink2:
David Craik
08-09-2004, 16:32
Yes, you need the right message board - one that caters to stubborn silly little boys with no grasp of reality and no prospect of learning anything from anyone who might actually have a clue as to what the hell they are talking about. Please go away, you're irritating.
Thanks for making me spit noodles all over my desk William.
Don Roley
08-09-2004, 18:12
Oh, you want www.artoftheninja.com
You will love it. The same amount of maturity and wisdom we have seen from you so far.
David Craik
08-11-2004, 06:01
Jesus, some weird stuff going on at that site. Kids trying to make poisons and bombs..real smart. Seems that parents aren't monitoring their kids' internet use too well, so we have a new generation of those who have a bright future ahead of them in prison, getting their romance rectally.
Some funny quotes to be gleaned from there though, it's hard to believe sometimes that they didn't come from Real Ultimate Power (http://www.realultimatepower.net) :
There was a science teacher that did an experiment with pure sodium in front of his class. He put too much in a fish tank and it exploded and the students got glass schrapnel and burns on them, but nothing too serious. Thats how 1337 it is.
But hey, being a ninja is also illegal, so it dos'nt make a difference.
Seems like just the place for young Edward.
In fact, I never even would have heard of Kenshin if it weren't for the tiresome legions of Ritalin-popping young'uns coming on sword forums and summarily raising the noise-to-signal ratio by asking where to get a sakabatou, how they can join the 'Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu', how you perform "Dou Ryu Sen" in real life, and having the belief, a la Mr. Plum up there, that whacking ne'er-do-wells with the mune of a sword is a legitimate tactic - which is what I meant by "Rurouni Kenshin nonsense", not the anime itself.
All quite simple really. :D
Oh, quite. Apologies then. I agree, the swordwork contained can be considered a steaming pile. An entertaining steaming pile, but certainly not much of a basis in reality.
I can understand writing the anime off wholesale if all you ever get from it are young kids trying to imitate it ;). Well, quite like many hollywood movies, really... Heheh.
---
Sebastien leclair
This world really is cruel. Sorry to all of those who want me to be on this message board, but I must leave.
I will become a blacksmith. My swords will be made to be as indestructable as they can get.
I will become a powerful warrior. I wont get advice from idiots like you. I will get advice from people who understand me. People who will have be patient with me. Obviously I have become a member of a martial arts message board that has a bunch of "pumped up" muscle bound morons who have no idea who I am and even how old I am.
www.freewebs.com/swordfighting is my new website. Mist0198 is my AIM. Mist@fantasysquare.com is my email address. Talk to me using that stuff. Not this stupid website. Please dont try to get me back on this site. I wont do it. I know what you will say. "Come back. There are a lot of good people here". Thats a lie. If you are not just trying to make me mad, then prove me wrong or I will always think of you as jerks.
David Craik
08-12-2004, 16:21
Bye-bye....
You B******! I hope you are happier now.
David Craik
08-12-2004, 21:19
And for that little outburst, I shall help you on your way to a BudoSeek-free future, freeing up more time for your training and study in accordance with BudoSeek rule #6. Peace.
There, now I'm happier. :)
Don Roley
08-13-2004, 06:20
Was that guy for real? He almost seems a parody. For gawd's sake, to say,
Obviously I have become a member of a martial arts message board that has a bunch of "pumped up" muscle bound morons who have no idea who I am and even how old I am.
when right above your post count of 107 it lists your age as 14!!!! I've got socks older than "Mist."
All I can say is-Buh bye!!
DuckofDeath
08-13-2004, 12:11
Forever lost the opportunity to Plumb the depths of the Mist...
David Craik
08-13-2004, 20:51
* gets all Misty-eyed *
kirigirisu
08-14-2004, 03:21
Yeah, and take all of your "Mistige Mist" with you, "Mist"-head.
The world is so cruel. Pain! Agony! Angst!
The hilarious thing is I'm slightly acquainted with various members of the blacksmith community through a few of my buddies who're into that "historical re-enactment" stuff.
Most of the better ones would "hammer" some cruel and unusual "sense" into our aspiring Masumune.
Meanwhile, the Acting Prince of Darkness giggles like a little schoolgirl from the Ninth Circle...
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