Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu - Ninjutsu

[MartialWarrior]

Is bujinkan budo taijutsu / ninjutsu , effective & realistic?
Why have i never seen any good "ninjutsu" practitioners going well on UFC or K1 or NHB etc.. I am aware of some but they really suck.. those are:

Steve Jennum
Hometown: Omaha, Nebraska - USA
Styles:

INNOVATIVE MARTIAL ARTS SYSTEMS
-T. NINJUTSU - 3rd Degree Black Belt
-TAI-JITSU - Black Belt
-Tae Kwan Do
-Jiu-Jitsu

Height: 5’10"
Weight: 195-210 lbs.
Date of Birth: 1961
Occupation: Police Officer
Marital Status: Single

He came 1st in UFC (without even fighting anyone , he went directly to the finals , same for his opponent because of some injuries gracie and shamrock had on that tournament and some other competitors). Jennum fought in the final (against a crappy karate guy) , and he almot to get beated lol. But , yes he is a champion..heh. What are your thoughts about Bujinkan?

-1st-You may say (Bujinkan is not a sport) that's why it didn't work. BUt if it was effective shouldn't work on UFC too? It was a kind of surviving too. (There aren't any restriction making the practitioner unable to make his tehniques).

-2nd-There is a rule from Bujinkan, NOT to use the art for anything else except surviving. (And we can see the name of mr. Steve Jennum poppin in many bujinkan adverstises).

-3d- After his fight against that karate guy , he fought 2 more times and got his ass kicked , badly. And since then he never went back to compete in UFC.

-4th- Morris Scott another ninjutsu guy , got his ass kicked really bad too. He didn't do much , never got a big title , and i dbout he has ever won anyone. I think he won a karate guy once.

-5th- In a real life situation , some tehniques won't work
eg: against boxers or someone who knows what he is doing.
eg of tehnique: (cossadori)
WITH ALL THE RESPECT TO THE ART OF BUJINKAN BUDO TAIJUTSU , I ASK THE BBT PRACTITIONERS TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS , IF THEY CAN :) Thanks..

[Dennis_Mahon]

Since when is winning the UFC a measure of any martial art's effectiveness?

[Jeff Burger]

Dennis I dont want to sound sarcastic but ...
Since when is a martial arts competition not?

Jeff

[Dennis_Mahon]

Dennis I dont want to sound sarcastic but ...
Since when is a martial arts competition not?

Re-reading what I wrote, I see what you mean. I mis-stated what I meant to say (probably because of the pain meds I'm currently taking- blasted wisdom tooth!):

Since when is winning the UFC the only measure of any martial art's effectiveness?

[worndowndahnbonym]

Back when I was doing SCA heavy fighting, one of the guys in the unit I was part of was a Bujinkan instructor.

He was really good at adapting stick and cane techniques to SCA fighting, and I hated fighting him... and loved it at the same time.

I would be willing to bet, based on that and what I saw when I went to several of his classes that there is a great deal of "Real World" application to the Bujinkan.

Just because an art doesn't do well in UFC doesn't mean a whole lot.... just that it's not that adaptable to the rules of the UFC.

[Beth Parker]

First off Jennum is not bujinkan and never has been he was trained by Robert Bussy and his warrior international. If you look at the history of Hatsumis teachers you will find Takamatsu, I****ani,Tadafusa,and Masamitsu. All of these men were true warriors in every since of the word. It is said takamatsu could rip the bark off of trees with a swipe of his hand. I****ani was very famous martial artist. Masamitsu held samurai rank and was a senior instructor of Bikenshin Ryu Kenjutsu a school that taught the Tokugawa Shogunate. So in considering what arts make up the Bujinkan and where they came from you will see they are all war arts based on battlefield application. Thar would make them realistic and effective. Its not the art it is the person behind the art that maKes it effective.

Beth Parker

[Sgathak]

:confused:

Maybe I missed it, but what happened to you being the unknowing "karate mom"?


I have promised my sons 10 and 16 martial arts lessons. I have no prior knowledge of martial arts. If iI was checking into say a medical school i would just make sure they were listed with WHO

[Beth Parker]

Im a fast learner I decided if I could come up with one more semi-intelligent post that i can proclaim myself a Soke Im still clueless...lol

Beth Parker

[Jeff Burger]

Cool Dennis
I dont think MMA is end all be all...there are so many other factors in a street fight...weapons, numbers....

Just a pet peeeve of mine that people tend to bad mouth MMAist and they are some damn tuff individuals.

Jeff

[riku]

Beth Parker-
so, you are turning to well-knowing, -informed, curious and fast learning karate mom... sounds good...that probably will help your kids in their training.. and what art will you pick for yourself;) ?

With respect,
Riku Ylönen

[Beth Parker]

I agree about the MMA. No one style has all the answers.
To be combat effective one must train in all 4 ranges of fighting
Lets see what would be a good recipe

Jiu-Jitsu DE Brasil
Muay Thai
Western boxing
mario sperry style vale tudo
Throw in some dog brothers stick fighting and Guru Dan Inosanto to explain all the empty hand applications

Anyone who makes fun of MMA should really think about cross-training themselves. Many styles hold the key not just one

Beth Parker

[johenora]

Dear Beth Parker:
You are 100% correct. It is all in the mindset of the warrior/Shinobu and the rules of play. Since when does a Shadow Warrior have to follow rules.

Originally posted by Beth Parker
First off Jennum is not bujinkan and never has been he was trained by Robert Bussy and his warrior international. If you look at the history of Hatsumis teachers you will find Takamatsu, I****ani,Tadafusa,and Masamitsu. All of these men were true warriors in every since of the word. It is said takamatsu could rip the bark off of trees with a swipe of his hand. I****ani was very famous martial artist. Masamitsu held samurai rank and was a senior instructor of Bikenshin Ryu Kenjutsu a school that taught the Tokugawa Shogunate. So in considering what arts make up the Bujinkan and where they came from you will see they are all war arts based on battlefield application. Thar would make them realistic and effective. Its not the art it is the person behind the art that maKes it effective.

Beth Parker
Most winners of the UFC were sportsmen and grapplers fighting under a set of rules. These grapplers also had other assets such as Judo, Jiu Jitsu, Shoot fighting skills and above all cardio vascular endurance to apply the choke or locks, but against a real Ninja of the ole schools you refer to --the battle would be over in no time FLAT. I've seen Shidoshi S. Hayes dispatch a grappler in no time flat in a real fight situation. Watch out for them Ninja .Especially if they got weapons in their arsenal of fire and brimstone.
Rule one when you see a Ninja it is too late --you don't got a chance to run. Just commit suicide some will say.
The worst Ninja is a Masterless samurai who decides to go Shinobi. He/She need not follow nor respect the rules of fair game.
Fighting a Ninja is like being tracked in the Amazon rainforest--oh heck--jungle and he/she has a blow gun armed with darts soaked for two inches in curare and snake poison. Disbelievers better pray they got the antidote or stay out of the jungle and away from them small hunters in that jungle terrain. Even the Gracies and all their cousins do not want to go into that Brazilian jungle--my Jiu Jitsu will not work on them jungle natives.

[Jeff Burger]

quote
" I have no prior knowledge of martial arts."

We ve' been had.


Jeff

[Sgathak]

Well SOMEBODY has... Ive been quizzical since post #2

[Hardcore Fighter]

I wish my mom was as cool as beth parker.

Dude why does everyone talk about Steven K. Hayes like he is a real ninja. I read about him and he studied in japan in ninjutsu for like 3 years and then comes to american and starts teaching it. Thats rediculous.

I think ninjutsu is effective in a real fight situation. MMA is cool but they still have too many rules.

[Jay Bell]

*sigh*

Because Stephen Hayes, aside from Terry Tobson, was the first American to study Ninjutsu. He's been studying Ninpo longer then you've been alive.

[Hardcore Fighter]

I dont know man. Its really weird to think you are certified to teach a martial art after only studying it for 3 years. I dont think thats enough time. Since then who else has he studied under to get better? You cant just learn for 3 years and then teach yourself the rest of the art.

[Jay Bell]

As I just got through saying, he has been a student of Hatsumi sensei longer then you've been alive. He makes regular trips to Japan to continue his training.

To claim that he only studied for three years is not only silly, it's horribly misinformed. Three years until he came back to the United States...but has continued his training ever since.

Stop making assumptions based on what little you understand of the situation.

[ECHO]

you also have to keep in mind that the UFC has a really long list of rules that you must adhere to so a fighters natural instinct to use a technique may be hampered because using something "effective" on the street might get you disqualified in the UFC

[johenora]

When I alluded to Stephen Hayes --the Ninja Master. I meant it. He is on the forefront of Ninjutsu along with his teacher--Master Hatsumi. There are many others so be it.
When a neophyte questioned Tanamo Saigo,a Shinto priest after having fought in the loyalist war(See Movie Making of a Samurai w/ Tom Cruise)---Who is this man called Jesus? Saigo Tanomo answered; "I do not know because I have not walked in his sandles."
This quote hit home hard to me. Sort of never judge a book by its cover. Read it , feel and sense it for to get the true flavor of the ideation or what may.
As Sokaku Takeda no Minamoto Masa Yoshi- disseminater of Daito Ryu once said " See where there is no form and hear where there is no sound ".So I went to Mr. Hayes and saw for myself and I was certainly impressed by all his skills and attributes. Teaching and doing-- I had doubts in my youth as to Shidoist Steve Hayes until I met him in the flesh, on the mats and felt his techniques and he felt mine. When I asked him a queation I always got an honest answer. I had been taught rope and chain by the Daito Ryu masters in secrecy so I had an inkling on how to employ these fighting devices. I asked Mr. Hayes a question on the most effective way and use thereof and he answereed my honest question truthfully, accurately and correctly, without hesitation in the least, like a good teacher.He knew his art and was a master thereof.
The techniques of the Ninja appear strange , but as a pragmaticist I guarantee you they work. He and Master Van Donk --one of the finest experts of Ninja arts in California like Mr. Hayes have travelled many times to Japan ,like I have to. I know pride is a cardinal sin, but I am proud to be their true frind before I leave this earth and leave "my things" to my students. They put their blood sweat and tears and money,etc where it counts not the mouth but in action like an action warrior. They love and have apassion for their art-like a blazing hot fire.These two great teachers will not be with us for long and soon will be gone.
They are not to be vilified on mere hearsay, envy and ugly rumor.
Thank God they did not bury their treasures or diamonds but made media recordations(books,tapes,etc.) for future generations to make effective use thereof so as not be lost to humankind.
It is easy to criticize with words. But slanders are like arrows. Once shot from the bow are almost impossible to retrieve.Snobs love to criticize but most of them that I have seen are useless pieces of humanity in the life and death struggle.
Cheers to their innovative and creative efforts for future generations to come.

[Hardcore Fighter]

Nice post action warrior. You are the guy who told me I was a great ninja worrior.

Anyway, I was just saying that along time ago Hays came back to USA and was teaching ninjutsu. Kind of like me getting a black belt in TKD and claiming im certified to teach. He probably knos more now.

Anyway I heard this guy in Spain is the only liscensed westerner to teach the art of Ninjutsu. The koga school certified him.

You ninja practitioners are very defensive.

[ECHO]

"what Koga school?"

[Dennis_Mahon]

Oy! What a mess!

[johenora]

To Dennis Mahon--

I second the OY Veh! What a mess to this messy state of affairs. A Ninja can really stir up a mess. Woops my double toe socks are missing from my dryer.One of them Ninja has been around my neighborhood.
Must be one of them speachless Koga Ninja that got them.
Does anybody know the whereabouts of James "Jim"Loriega Sensei--or his Email or address or phone number and where his new djo is located?
Can any real Ninja find him in daylight or in darkness? The days are getting shorter and the nights are getting longer.

[johenora]

I allude to the old Koga School in Brooklyn . NYC that has since disappeared or vanished. Only a Ninja can find them rascals and I mean rascals dressed in black or them funny gray or camoulflage suities they wears under their regular clothes.
You can not tell how many weapons of destruction they carry under their leather jackets these days of modern nighthood unless you frisk them.You are liable to find three knives, throwing stars, dart guns, ropes, poisons --all kinds of paraphenalia to include grass which they will claim is for blending with the background. HA! HA!
Can anybody tell me and disgorge the truth if there is a real Samurai school located in NYC or the USA or Japan. I thought all Samurai were abolished by the Japanese Meiji Emperor's edict in Japan in 1878 (circa) or there abouts.

[johenora]

Hardcore:
Did you find this Koga Ninja in Madrid,Spain?
I am not kidding. Did you get a good photograph for evidence? We have a few wanna be Ninja on www.BudoSeek.net wearing them Ninja joy suits to get a jag on.But they should give us a break.Who are these ego maniacs trying to impress? I bet their Moms and Dads.
Even most parole officers do not believe in or on or by them.Did he have any ancestors living in Brooklyn or Puerto Rico or the Phillipines?
I have been forever looking for them Koga ninjas since 1985 and have found them to be the most elusive guys and gals in all of NYC.
Some of them tried to have me certified by a psychiatrist but I did not know at the time if they were the reak McCoy.....They said they were--can you believe everything somebody tells you now- a -days. We have learned they do not even want to really answer our questions on Budo Seek.net.
I do not think even a psychiatrist can tell because it is a figment of their imaginations like "Budo" and "Samurai" is. Ninjutsu ain't like Tae Kwan Doists as you so well know. TKD is for real for sures and shows.
But Ninjutsu--give me another break from the bout of absurdity.
More than one thread has gone down to the tubes on Ninpo/Ninja stuff.
The operative facts just will not support the notion that there is real Ninja let alone real Samurai. Samurai/Bushis are illegal in Japan. I do not know about Ninja except for some farmers and merchants who act like Ninja on a daily and nightly basis getting in all kinds of trouble in Japan--old Yamato.
Off to see if I can find me a real Ninja!

[Jay Bell]

Ghod this is getting old...


Anyway, I was just saying that along time ago Hays came back to USA and was teaching ninjutsu. Kind of like me getting a black belt in TKD and claiming im certified to teach. He probably knos more now.

Do you know that he was not certified or given permission to teach? No...and since you don't, please keep your wise-ass comments to yourself.

Defensive? Yep...especially when a bunch of yahoos come on here sounding like experts on subjects that they have no idea about.

This is your last warning, Hardcore. I'm tired of spending my days deflating your rumor mill b.s. and I'm sure I'm not alone in that. If you can't contribute with fact or some legitimate questions, don't contribute at all.

For example:


Anyway I heard this guy in Spain is the only liscensed westerner to teach the art of Ninjutsu. The koga school certified him.

There is no legitimate Koga school anywhere anymore. They died out long ago. If you would have read some archives on this forum about this, you would have known the story behind the old "Koga Curtain".

J. Denora -- Nice story. :rolleyes:

[Beth Parker]

Some of you people need to hit that little button with search on it
before posting so you dont ask a question that has tons of info about it already archived. As for Steven Hayes u are acting like he is someone with 3 years martial arts training here are just a few facts: Started formal training in the 1960's [before u were born im sure] Has over 20 years training with Masaki Hatsumi and was the first american to recieve a black belt under him. Has trained in Japan.Europe,China,Tibet,Nepal,India ect..... Where have u trained again Hardcore? Has taught Britains elite SAS as well as at the FBI academy. Was chief of security for the Dalai Lama of Tibet. Has over 30 years of FORMAL martial arts training. So in the future before u spew ignorance type the persons name in a search engine. As far as Koga a car wreck killed the last master and all his senior students

Beth Parker

[johenora]

It is stupid to brag in your public resume that you are a Martial Artist in security of or a bodyguard for His Holiness the Dali Lama when maybe in truth and fact it is technically not so.
The Dali Lama does not need body guards. He is not in fear of death like most egotistic humans. His Holiness has transcended that state of fear. Give us a break from those snobs. Idiotic statement to make to the public if you are supposed to be a secret body guard.
The Dali Lama has so many body guards that the CIA Station Chief in India and the Indian police do not know which way to turn to catch those assassins of the last two demized monks that were chopped up by "the unknowns" not too far from the Dali Lama's India residence. A few blocks in fact.The India state police where the Dali Lama resides are suppose to protect his holiness.This "body guard" craze is propoganda and not in the least bit true.Granted some of the monks close to the Dali Lama have asked some experts on how to guard etc. He probably was asked for advice at the most.
Did you know the security for the Dali Lama is one of the worst. I do not wish to tell you the reasons why, but check it out yourself next time you see face to face the Dali Lama or his sister who played the Dali Lama's mother in that epic movie of the Dali Lama's life with Tom Cruiser.
Maybe someone's contact lenses fell out in New York when laying prostate before the Dali Lama.Ask them fake Koga Ninja that was there at Times Square,NYC in the early 80's.
Kindly quit picking on HardCore and hitting him below the belt or you maybe called a schmock or worst words than that by those new fangled Koga Ninjas.
What the hell car crash are you guys blowin steam over? There were two car crashes and I am looking to find where the bodies of them Ninjas are buried? Was one an Isreali agent and saboteur? Pray tell and do not send anyone on a wild goose chase if the evidentiary and operative facts are true.
The last Secret Service Agents we trained in the Georgetown area special building we found were human like anyone else and could not stand the pain so they went the Aikido and Ninja route. So what does this have to do with authenticity anyway. Give us a break.

[MartialWarrior]

History of Ninjutsu:
------------------------
Ninjutsu is a Japanese martial art with roots that reach back over 1000 years. Traditional Ninjutsu is a Koryu (a martial art that is founded before 1868). There are many different Ryu-ha (school-families) of Ninjutsu. During the era of peace however, the Ninja services were no longer needed and many Ryu closed. But a few Masters of Ninjutsu kept the tradition alive by teaching their children and few people around. Traditionally the knowledge was passed down from father to son. This was the way of upholding the honor of the tradition. The two largest Ryu of Ninjutsu was Togakure Ryu and Koga Ryu, which exist today. They were located in two different provinces in Japan. Koga Ryu was located in the Koga province and Togakure Ryu was located in Iga province. Sato Ryu was a large clan, which kept contact with the two different Ryu but finally joined the Koga Ryu-ha. Ninjutsu evolved from different Japanese Bujutsu Ryu-ha and also from Chinese and Korean refugees who added their knowledge to the art. Ninjutsu allowed the practitioner to have the odds against him and still be able to get out safely. This is true today. There are many myths regarding Ninjutsu. I am going to write about a serious source of Ninjutsu with the knowledge my Sensei, Soke Yo Sato, Judan Sato Ryu Ninjutsu has given me.

How many myths are there about the soldiers of Japan that we know as Ninja? Well if we should write all the myths here on this web site it would be full of unnecessary knowledge so I am not going write about the myths of the Ninja. Ninjutsu was developed as a combat system by people who lived in the Koga and Iga province. They knew that it was as important to be in good physique and good mental health. The Ninja could be guerrilla soldiers as they could be spies, farmers, master-less Samurai or regular people. They Ninja had different clans; both in Japan they were different types of clans but if you look into the history of any culture there have been clans. The Scottish had their clans, Indians and the Ninja had their clans. Each clan had different kinds of expertise. The Yagyu clan were very famous swordsmen. Sato Ryu was a very huge clan with many specialties. The two largest clans were Koga and Togakure Ryu but there were many more and each clan had one thing they considered was the guideline in the Ryu. There were about 73 different Ryu of Ninjutsu in ancient Japan, 53 of them belonged to Koga Ryu. But only two of the clans Koga and Iga (Togakure Ryu) lived long enough to be accepted by the Tokugawa government as Ninjutsu Ryu. The martial art known as Ninjutsu has their lineage woven into Japan’s religion, martial, political and cultural history. Where each day of the families’ lives depended on your families’ strength, ability and creativity. It was at that time the true warriors of the night began to develop and take part of Japan’s history. Here they started to create their way of survival; empty handed defense, way of handling weapons, chemistry, camouflage and guerrilla tactics. These skills would later become known as Ninjutsu. But long before that the Ninja had their roots in the Shugenja and Yamabushi that were warrior priests from the mountains; they practiced Kuji-in, different kinds of combat, meditation and so on. When the Ninja started to evolve from being mountain warriors to warriors of the night, that was when they earned their place in the history.

As I said before the Ninja were one of the first known guerrilla soldiers in the history, probably the first that were so organized. So you can discuss the freedom fighter – terrorist issue depending on which side you choose to look at it. They became very skilled in military warfare, espionage and living in harmony with nature as well. People that lived in the Iga and Koga province, who were not allowed to defend themselves, their possessions and their family developed Ninjutsu over a millenia ago. They were forbidden to carry a sword by the government, so they were forced to practice their knowledge in secret, ie. in the mountains, forests and so on. The Ninja was known for having a network of people that knew that was going on, when it was going on and how it was going to happen. Because of this they could plan their defense before the enemy planned their attack. The Ninja would disguise themselves as slaves, priests, chef and so on. This would enable them to walk into the enemies’ base without drawing attention and at the same time gather information for their mother Ryu. At the same time the Ninja could spread false rumors or disinformation. The enemy would plan their attack right into a trap and there would be confusion among their soldiers. They could also give the enemy false positions so the enemy had no chance in their attack

I am now going to write about the Ninja history and history about the Koga Ryu. To do this we must go back 1100 – 1200 years back in ancient Japan.

Some infos about Koga:

Koga Ryu (pronounced Koh-ga) was a large Ryu with 53 families that united together about 938 – 946. It was after Mochizuki Saburo Kameie was victorious against Taira No Masakado. There he conquered a bit of the southeast Omo province. The landscape was known as Koga-gun, so Mochizuki changed his name into Koga OniNo kami Kameie. It was his son Oni No Kami Iechika who, by the way was a great soldier and had great talent in literature, is said to have founded Koga Ryu. It was also said that he studied Genjutsu under a Buddhist monk named Tatsumaki Hoshi. Tatsumaki’s knowledge was the foundation for Koga Ryu whom by the way lived in the Omo province. The tradition went through seven generations: Oni No Kami Ienari, Iesada, Ienaga, Iekiyo, Ietoo, Ieyoshi, and Yoshiyasu before it was passed down to other families like: Mochizuki, Ugai, Naiki and Akutagawa. These five main families and remaining troops from the north and south kingdom of Namboku joined together in 1335 – 1395 the result of which Koga Ryu grew into 53 different families. Some of the families were 1. Koga Ryu 2. Taro Ryu 3.Omoto Ryu 4. Shinpi Ryu 5. Kuruya Ryu 6. HiRyu Ryu 7. Tiara Ryu 8. Tomo Ryu 9. Fujiwara Ryu 10. Isshu Ryu 11. Tatara Ryu 12. SasakiRyu 13. Byaku Ryu 14. Sugawara Ryu 15. Tachibana Hachi Tengu Ryu 16. KawachiYon Tengu Ryu. While Koga Ryu grew in Japan it was comprised of eight families that were the main clans (Koga Hachi Tengu). The eight families were Koga Ryu, Mochizuki, Ugai, Naikii, Akutagawa, Ueno, Ban and
Nagano. When Koga Ryu entered the year 1900 the Ryu was split, and many masters of Koga Ryu started their own style of Koga. Most of the masters sought luck in the United States and were hoping to keep the tradition alive there. The last Soke with a historical connection to Koga Ryu was Fujita Soke. He helped the Japanese army lead troops against the USA in WWII. There are now many different schools of Koga Ryu and each and everyone has it own connection to the historical Koga Ryu. Sato Ryu joined Koga Ryu in the 1400’s.

Koga Ryu "School": http://cnfsa.com/content/constitution.htm

RESUME - PAUL WALTON BOTHMA
o Head of the Cape Ninjutsu Federation - RSA
o 4th Dan Koga-Ryu Ninjutsu
o Currently also holding 1st Degree Black Belt Jodansha level in Small Circle Ju-Jutsu
o 19 years, 7 months - Police officer (Ex policeman since 2000)
o 10 years with the Flying Squad / Radio Control Unit
o 2 years doing special services in SAPS
o Police Instructor's Course
o Police Instructor's Course in Tonfa (PR24 Baton)
o Trained police personnel
o Police duty in Namibia
o Trained security personnel
o Completed an Anti-Hijacking Course with the South African Ninjutsu Federation

Oh..and thanks for your answers :D And besides , im a ninjutsu practitioner. ;) I asked my sensei about Koga and Iga ryu and he agreed that some people still know it and teach it.

Thanks..

[Hardcore Fighter]

Whoah I pissed off a karate mom! Woops! Im so sorry ninja master karate mom. I guess you are like soccer moms and can get in fights easy. And Beth Parker I did search on this website and I found nothing explaining my questions. I am not about to go on the internet and search up Steven K. Hayes because all I will get is biased info. Back in the day I thought he was so awsome and was a real ninja master. I am not saying he isnt. Its just I read some stuff and it just sounds really weird. I wouldnt go to Korea and study Taekwondo for only 3 years and then come back to america and start teaching.


Yeah I read Hayes started teaching ninjutsu after only 3 years of training. Its true. I am sure he knows a TON more and has trained a heck of a lot and is a good martial artist. But I was just wondering if he is for real because most people claiming to be a ninjutsu instructor are fake. Its totally shady.


Get the issue of Budo magazine that was out before the latest 2 issues. It has a article on ninjutsu and talks a little about history and what the art is about. This guy who is a paratrooper in spain is said to be the only westerner to be liscenced to teach ninjutsu. The article talked big about the ninja fakes who went to Japan in the 80's and trained for a couple years and within only 10 years they became 11th degree black belts in ninjutsu. NOw that to me is redicules. I am not being ignorant. I am just asking questions. You people shouldnt act like jerks and be babies because someone is searching for the truth. There are so many fakes out there claiming to be ninja masters and I just want to know what masters are real.

It seems like ninjutsu practitioners dont have all the answers and get offended because there is so much shady stuff surounding their art that everyone questions it. Kid of how everyone questions Taekwondo's effectivness.

But I believe that ninjutsu is real and it exists and is a really awsome martial art. I was just asking to see who is a real liscenced instructor and who is just a fake. And who actually has enough experience to be claiming they are a master and all of that. Is that so wrong??

[Jay Bell]

Originally posted by johenora
It is stupid to brag in your public resume that you are a Martial Artist in security of or a bodyguard for His Holiness the Dali Lama when maybe in truth and fact it is technically not so.
The Dali Lama does not need body guards. He is not in fear of death like most egotistic humans. His Holiness has transcended that state of fear. Give us a break from those snobs. Idiotic statement to make to the public if you are supposed to be a secret body guard.
The Dali Lama has so many body guards that the CIA Station Chief in India and the Indian police do not know which way to turn to catch those assassins of the last two demized monks that were chopped up by "the unknowns" not too far from the Dali Lama's India residence. A few blocks in fact.The India state police where the Dali Lama resides are suppose to protect his holiness.This "body guard" craze is propoganda and not in the least bit true.Granted some of the monks close to the Dali Lama have asked some experts on how to guard etc. He probably was asked for advice at the most.
Did you know the security for the Dali Lama is one of the worst. I do not wish to tell you the reasons why, but check it out yourself next time you see face to face the Dali Lama or his sister who played the Dali Lama's mother in that epic movie of the Dali Lama's life with Tom Cruiser.
Maybe someone's contact lenses fell out in New York when laying prostate before the Dali Lama.Ask them fake Koga Ninja that was there at Times Square,NYC in the early 80's.
Kindly quit picking on HardCore and hitting him below the belt or you maybe called a schmock or worst words than that by those new fangled Koga Ninjas.
What the hell car crash are you guys blowin steam over? There were two car crashes and I am looking to find where the bodies of them Ninjas are buried? Was one an Isreali agent and saboteur? Pray tell and do not send anyone on a wild goose chase if the evidentiary and operative facts are true.
The last Secret Service Agents we trained in the Georgetown area special building we found were human like anyone else and could not stand the pain so they went the Aikido and Ninja route. So what does this have to do with authenticity anyway. Give us a break.

*SIGH* Once again, get your facts straight before posting on this forum. This is *your* warning, J.

Stephen has been a bodyguard for the Dali Lama on many occasions. Look it up...you might learn something. As far as the car wreck in 69', use the search function as Beth recommended.

What exactly is not clear here? Why are these concepts so difficult for you two to pick up? Let me know if I need to be more clear...

[Jay Bell]

NOw that to me is redicules. I am not being ignorant. I am just asking questions. You people shouldnt act like jerks and be babies because someone is searching for the truth. There are so many fakes out there claiming to be ninja masters and I just want to know what masters are real.

-and-


I was just asking to see who is a real liscenced instructor and who is just a fake. And who actually has enough experience to be claiming they are a master and all of that. Is that so wrong??

No, that isn't *just* what you were doing. Along side your questions, you were laying down complete guesswork as though you had all the answers. People come to the Ninpo/Ninjutsu forum to learn about these arts, not to zero in on a handful of bogus by someone who isn't in the game. The complaint I have against you (and now J.) is to stop spitting out rediculous rumors just because you heard so-and-so say it. So please, save the suffering martyr bit.

[Kreth]

Originally posted by Jay Bell
This is your last warning, Hardcore. I'm tired of spending my days deflating your rumor mill b.s. and I'm sure I'm not alone in that. If you can't contribute with fact or some legitimate questions, don't contribute at all.
You know... I looked at his website, and I have to wonder if he made a typo with his age. Should it be 12 instead of 21? An excerpt:

Originally posted on Hardcore Fighter's site
If you watch one of these movies you will go outside and start kicking everything!! And your friends will be like "What the heck? Dude why did you kick me?" And then you will go to your house and show him why you kicked him by putting in an awsome, totally sweet, narly martial arts movie. After the movie is over your friend will jump up on his feet and start going totally crazy and will kick you and punch at you and you will be like "Dude what the heck? Check out my Dragon Fist!" And he will be like "Oh that is so good, but check out my Karate kicks and Drunken Crab Ninjitsu!" And you will go buck wild and go outside and fight for hours and then go to some other friends and fight them too and the cycle will repeat until everyone of your friends is going crazy for martial arts movies and fighting!!!
He's obviously an over-obsessive fanboy who's disappointed that ninjutsu irl isn't what he's seen in the movies. I don't know what's worse, his diatribes or johenora's vertigo-inducing posts. Standard punctuation, learn it. And as for the koga master... :D

Jeff

[Hardcore Fighter]

I am not over obsessed. I just had a few questions. I am sorry I offended all of you. I didnt mean to.

And just because I make some grammar mistakes does not mean I am 12. I have not personally insulted any of you, yet you keep personally insulting me over and over.


Anyway its good to know Steven Hayes is a real ninjutsu martial artist. I have read some of his books and it had cool info. I used to be really into him when i was in 8th grade and was just wanting to know what was up.

I dont even want to practice the art of ninjutsu so how can I be a fanboy who obsesses about ninjas? I do like ninja movies, who doesnt? But I do think ninjutsu is a cool martial art and I respect it.

[Jeff Burger]

Denora and Harcore Fighter...

Are you kiddies having a good time?
Id suggest you read the Budoseek rules an decide whether you want to follow them or not.

Hardcore.....
"I have not personally insulted any of you"

"Whoah I pissed off a karate mom! Woops! Im so sorry ninja master karate mom. I guess you are like soccer moms and can get in fights easy"

And I only had to go back 1 post to find one.

Jeff

[Hardcore Fighter]

That wasnt a direct insult like calling her ignorant or something. Plus I didnt start the namecalling. I think that if someone wants to call me a 12 year old or ignorant that I have a right to respond back. Its only fair.

Why do you people always get so angery when people ask legitamate questions. At least I went to a message board like this to state what I had read and actually took the time to find out wether I was wrong or not instead of just telling everyone he is fake.

[heretic888]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! :laugh:

Oh my god, this thread is hilarious!!

Thanks guys, I haven't had a good laugh all day. :D

Laterz.

[Kreth]

Originally posted by Hardcore Fighter
That wasnt a direct insult like calling her ignorant or something. Plus I didnt start the namecalling. I think that if someone wants to call me a 12 year old or ignorant that I have a right to respond back. Its only fair.
Your website looks like it was written by a hummingbird on Jolt, hence my comment.


Why do you people always get so angery when people ask legitamate questions. At least I went to a message board like this to state what I had read and actually took the time to find out wether I was wrong or not instead of just telling everyone he is fake.
Legitimate. And you didn't start out asking questions on this thread. Your first post read, in part:


Dude why does everyone talk about Steven K. Hayes like he is a real ninja. I read about him and he studied in japan in ninjutsu for like 3 years and then comes to american and starts teaching it. Thats rediculous.
That doesn't look like a question to me. It looks more like trolling.

Jeff

[johenora]

Hurray Martial Warrior --you are really knowledgeable. I most certainly appreciate what you have written. I have always had an interest in Ninjutsu. Your background is most impressive and it appears you have a wonderful teacher.
Thanks again for all the insights on this Koryu martial art subject.
At least you do NOT dish out insults to inflate your ego like some of those near maniacal dudes trying to say something.
All they know how to do is gripe.And, some like to get a good belly laugh. Hurray to them dudes also.At least it is good to smile and have a good belly laugh in the MA .It helps deflate our big egos.It has been said:
"Out of ignorance comes bliss." At least I do not brag that I am the bodyguard consultant of some great dignitary unless that dude wants to inflate his ego or maybe his publicity director did it for the publicity sheets in the SUN LION. Yet I know for a fact is a great author,bodyguard, person and Martial artist and innovater. Maybe I am wrong. Yes, I am wrong in my attitude. I have this attitudinal problem in this regard.He is free to write about his
consulatations.Sometimes a little truth is a lot.Those Tibetan monks--at least two that I have met always bring this subject up to start a conversation.They are always looking for FREE consultations on how to guard what they passionately love.
But, I admit I must mark my words and quit gripping about all the hearsay I have read herein that doesn't make sense about bodyguarding.
The power of prayer is better than all that bodyguarding.
Lastly,most people with good sense and propriety do not particularly care for critics who are vain and snobbish know it alls.
Matta Ai Masho,

[johenora]

Oops. I broke the rules. I most humbly apologize with mud in my face.
I shall curtail my rugged enthsiasm on this Ninjitsu thread. Forgive me Shidoist Steven Hayes and all of you wonerful persons on this board.I am truly sorry.

[heretic888]

Can someone please explain to me what a 'shidoist' is?? :rolleyes:

[mysticwulf]

One reason you won't see many (or any) Taijutsu practitioners in competition is because Taijutsu is a "combat" art as opposed to a "sport".

As rough and tough as MMA can be, it still has rules. Taijutsu doesn't.

The reality is that NO competition is a substitute for real combat, as in the real thing there's no trophies, no second place and no judges. "Him or me" means 'he's' been called home to heaven and you just can't duplicate that in a non-lethal contest.

While all combat doesn't have to be, and shouldn't be, fatal, there is that element of finality to the real thing.

Another reason you won't see any Taijutsu stylists in MMA is that in the true style of a combat art, much of the focus is on AVOIDANCE. As far as I'm concerned the lack of Taijutsu practitioners in MMA shows the effectiveness of Taijutsu, as they refrain from going to a place where some big mean guy is going to try to hit them. :)

In "Pathnotes of an American Ninja Master" the author (Dr. Glenn Morris) is describing the Sword Test for 5th Dan. You kneel in front of Soke Hatsumi in meditation as he stands behind you (also in meditation) with a shinai, which he then swings at your melon with full force and intention.
Either your Taijutsu is good enough that you can sense the blow and roll away from it, or you get cracked on the noggin. Hard.
This used to be done with live steel and there were NO Godan or above in Bujinkan who couldn't do it correctly the first time.

Dr. Morris comments later (tongue in cheek) that "skipping the whole thing and just going to the bar should be a pass, as you avoid the situation entirely". :)

While MMA is fun and harsh, it's still just a sport.

Robert Morgen
High Mountain Training Systems
www.highmountainhoshin.com

[Student]

I would just like to say mysticwulf, that your recent reply to this thread (in my opinion) is the closest to a relevant and concise answer to the original query. I only say closest because in my opinion what is of real importance here is bordering on, if not ineffable. I would look to (translated) writings (originally) by Hatsumi to best describe the reality of the issue.
I would like to put foreward one more possible reason (which in my opinion would not to a true 'ninja' be the foremost reason- which you just described (along with not wanting to cause injury/enter into combat unneccarily, or for personal gain or selfish reasons)) might be rejection from the bujinkan budo school, and quite possibly from other schools too (which i know less about.)
Also I would like to elaborate on your point of avoidance, that (in my (limited) experience) ninjutsu focuses on avoidance in techniques for combat to provide an advantage as well as avoiding combat/conflict altogether. And when conflict is inevitable, avoiding combat until the battle is already won.