Hapkido Vs Aikido

[JosephStanley]

Kia Ora everyone,

I wanted to get some opinions on training in Hapkido. I trained in Ju-Jitsu for a little and loved every minute of it, but in the area I have moved to there is one Ju-Jitsu dojo and they train in Ju-Jitsu once a week (they train in Judo the other three times). I am currently training in Aikido because I do not want to stop training. I do not want to train in Judo because I do not like the sports aspect. Even though Aikido is an excellent art I do not find it to have enough self defence (street defence). I was wanting to get some opinions on Hapkido and if it is very similar to Ju-Jitsu with it's self defence techniques.

I have access to Hapkido in my area and plan on visiting to "have a look".

Thankyou

Joseph Stanley

[Chris from CT]

Where I train in Hapkido it is very self-defense oriented. Of course how oriented towards it depends on the teacher that you train under. Some people focus on the self-defense aspect while others with more of a spiritual flavor (along the Aikido type line). I enjoy a blend so I can see what Hapkido, as a whole, has to offer.

In personal experience, Hapkido is not a sport oriented martial art, so don't fear. You should be pleasently suprised at how many street applications there are within the style. Give that class a shot.

Good luck and I hope you enjoy the class.
Take care, Joseph. :)

[kodanjaclay]

Chris is right on with this one.. to take it a step further.. to the best of my knowledge, Hapkido is the only martial art actively in use for combative purposes in the world... ie the protection of the President of S. Korea.

[Jeff C.]

Isn't TKD still taught to the Korean army? (Hope you don't mind the slight thread drift! :))

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[dao]

Now Jeff... :rolleyes: You know better than that. :D I'm not sure if TKD is taught to the Korean Army.

Hapkido does differ dojang to dojang but, its not sport oriented. Some styles of Hapkido (Sin Moo) teach kicking techniques which wouldn't normally be taught in Jujitsu but, there is lot of overlap between Jujitsu and Hapkido.

[kodanjaclay]

Taekwondo may be still taught in some places in the Korean Army, but I suspect that woud be Kukki Taekwondo which was designated by President Park in 1963 as the National Sport of Korea.

Hapkido, however, has no sporting applications... hehe... in fact i'm not sure that i'd like to see a hapkido tourney, might get kinda rough. lol

[yamatodamashii]

Originally posted by kodanjaclay
Chris is right on with this one.. to take it a step further.. to the best of my knowledge, Hapkido is the only martial art actively in use for combative purposes in the world... ie the protection of the President of S. Korea.

The entire Israeli self-defense force is trained in krav maga.
The army and police of Taiwan are trained in chung-i-quan.
All Tokyo riot police receive annual training in Yoshinkai aikido.
The US Special Forces are all currently being trained in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.
The US Marine Corps has recently introduced its own martial art--I forget the nomenclature, but it was created by a Fellow of the International Hoplology Society.

I'm sure there are more on a large scale, and I know that there are LOTS more on the local scale.

[kodanjaclay]

Mr. Diedrich, perhaps i was not clear. I am not referring to certain battalions or even companes doing their thing. I was referring to a Gov. officially saying this is what we do. To date DOD has never said any such thing.

As far as Krav Maga, some would disagree that this is a martial art as opposed to a method of CQC.

[Jason H]

Mr Clay,

Exactly how would one differentiate (other than in the mind of the practitioner) between a form of Martial Art and CQC? Can they not be considered one in the same?:wink2:

[kodanjaclay]

Well, no.
Having been in the military, I can say they are NOT the same thing. Martial Art, implies the stopping of violence as the character Mu represents to stop and spear. CQC has no such distinction. CQC is designed to Kill, or stop using maximal force. On the battlefield, for example, I can bayonet you. On the street, I'd get the death penalty.

If you have not served in the armed forces, you will not understand. This is why I do not consider Krav Maga to be a martial art. It is not a martial art, but a highly effective system of CQC.

CQC is pure violence. Period. Martial Art is something more than pure violence. Martial Art seeks to end violence.

I hope this helps.

Sincerely,
Master Frank Clay
KMAIA US Taekwondo/Tang Soo Do Representative
Haemukwan Hapkido Demo Team/Testing Council
www.haemukwan.com

[riku]

"CQC is pure violence. Period. Martial Art is something more than pure violence. Martial Art seeks to end violence. "


What a beautiful distinction and definition! I salute master Clay!

With deep bow,
Riku

[Jason H]

Didn't many Martial arts have thier beginnings with the very same purpose in mind ie. to kill or stop with maximum force? The unarmed Japanese, when Karate and Ju Jitsu had their beginnings, were fighting armed attackers trying to kill them. I'm not trying to call you wrong, Mr. Clay, I'm only seeking a greater understanding.
Perhaps we differentiate more these days between Martial Arts and CQC is that for the most part in today's society, the average person no longer has the need to learn to defend themselves from armed attack, so the focus of study has changed and greater benefits from studyng Martial Arts are realized.

[kodanjaclay]

Mr. Hendrickson,

Many historians believe that martial arts began in China at the Shaolin temple. If this is to be the case, then the answer would be that martial art evolved from exercises such as the 18 hands of Lohan, the 8 pieces of Brocade, etc. Some of these were decidedly non martial.

Further, as I stated previously, the chracter "mu" which means martial art means "to stop" and "spear". As previously stated, what makes an art an art is something more than meaningless violence. Further, this is not something I can can explain in a simple online post. My suggestion would be to study a martial art, and then try a course in military CQC. This is not to say that they are different in effectiveness... only in aims and goals. As a martial artist, I do not wish to harm anyone any more than absolutely necessary; when I was a professional soldier, my goal was to kill in defense of my country. Further, as a soldier, if I end up in a CQC situation, something is wrong, as all soldiers would rather shoot someone than fight with them.

And finally... the Japanese people did not create Karate for use in unarmed situations. Karate is a 20th century creation, which may have had its roots in earlier martial art. I could be wrong, but what I believe is missing here is a clear understanding of "Do", as this in my opinion is the major difference between simple violence and the arts of self perfection.:bandit:

[yamatodamashii]

Well, I'd like to say that I don't know where to begin on this one, but I guess I just start at the top:


Originally posted by kodanjaclay
Mr. Hendrickson,

Many historians believe that martial arts began in China at the Shaolin temple. If this is to be the case, then the answer would be that martial art evolved from exercises such as the 18 hands of Lohan, the 8 pieces of Brocade, etc. Some of these were decidedly non martial.


Could you name one? No hoplologist (that's an historian who specializes in martial arts--www.hoplology.com) would buy this for a second. Martial arts were around WAY before the Shaolin temple.
As for qi gong being a non-martial origin of Shaolin quan: likely, it was the other way around. Bodhidharma likely taught the monks hatha yoga; the combat skills were learned later from people staying at the monastery (once the monks were physically capable of PRACTICING them). Qi gong like "8 pieces of brocade" most likely developed as qi theory entered into martial arts practice.
Yoga not "martial" enough of an origin? Guns are just a re-application of fireworks. Are they not "martial", either?

Originally posted by kodanjaclay

Further, as I stated previously, the chracter "mu" which means martial art means "to stop" and "spear". As previously stated, what makes an art an art is something more than meaningless violence.

After two years of studying the Japanese language, and three years of living in Okinawa, I can quite confidently say that the character "mu" ("bu" in Japanese) means WAR ("martial arts" would be "mu sool" or "bujutsu"; there is also "mu do/budo" which would be "martial way"). Yes, it is comprised of smaller characters, but that is NOT how you read kanji. Do you really think that samurai and ninja were all about peace and love? NO! They conquered and assassinated! Do you know how iaido was originally practiced? On peasants who didn't bow deeply enough!

Martial arts ARE violence. This modern, post-Ueshiba, "budo is love" is the reason that skills used to kill and defend life through the millenia are now looked at as "fun" but "worthless in a fight".


Originally posted by kodanjaclay

Further, this is not something I can can explain in a simple online post. My suggestion would be to study a martial art, and then try a course in military CQC. This is not to say that they are different in effectiveness... only in aims and goals. As a martial artist, I do not wish to harm anyone any more than absolutely necessary; when I was a professional soldier, my goal was to kill in defense of my country. Further, as a soldier, if I end up in a CQC situation, something is wrong, as all soldiers would rather shoot someone than fight with them.

Been there, done that. I am a US Marine military policeman and marksmanship instructor. I study martial arts--REAL martial arts, not modern sport reinterpretations--to make me more efficient as both a killer and as a defender of peace. As for shooting people, combat marksmanship meets every criterion of a martial art.


Originally posted by kodanjaclay

And finally... the Japanese people did not create Karate for use in unarmed situations. Karate is a 20th century creation, which may have had its roots in earlier martial art. I could be wrong, but what I believe is missing here is a clear understanding of "Do", as this in my opinion is the major difference between simple violence and the arts of self perfection.:bandit:

Well, let's see: first, the Japanese people did not invent karate. Karate is an Okinawan martial art, developed when Okinawa was its own sovereign kingdom.
Second, karate is over 750 years old. The names of the systems were changed in the 20th century (from Shuri te to Shorin ryu, for example) and the character "Kara" (meaning "China") was changed to a different character of the same pronounciation but different meaning ("empty"); but "karate" is very old, and very deadly. "Karate-do" is new, and fairly worthless as a martial art, IMHO. I had the opportunity in Okinawa to train under Shimabukuro Eizo, one of the last teachers of real, old-style karate in Okinawa: it was an eye-opening experience.

"CQC" is nothing new. A little has changed, because we don't wear metal armor and we carry pistols instead of swords; but by and large these are the combat skills developed through the ages in China and cultural satellites--if anything, most cqc styles would be the watered-down wannabes (I have a long list of gripes against Monadnok). "Do" arts were the "new" thing; something that looked like martial arts but had nothing martial in it. Perhaps some people have a use for these systems, I do not; and they are NOT what martial arts are about. I suggest reading pretty much anything written by Donn F. Dreager (also a former US Marine and hoplologist) to help clarify this issue for you.

[Michael Tomlinson]

I agree with the premise that firearms can be described as Martial Arts,, I also practice and I find it humorous when people talk about the Samurai arts and how they used the sword,, if the Samurai were around today do you think they would be using a sword? No they would be using firearms because that would be the most effiecient weapon at their disposal.. they used swords in the old days because at that time THAT was the most effiecient weapon,, I also studied ninpo for a while in the past,, guess what we practiced with the most? Yep, firearms,,,, I love Hapkido and I also don't want to hurt people but you better believe I practice everyday TO hurt people! There has been a lot of talk about military and bodyguards using certain Martial Arts,,, I too am a Hapkido man thru and thru but I must say that Hapkido is not my first choice of weapons,,, and it isn't the first choice of the military or secret service either,, it is a last ditch resort.
Michael Tomlinson

[yamatodamashii]

Hear, hear!

I can do you one better: not only *would* samurai use firearms, they *did*. Arquebi and, later, muskets were introduced to the Japanese daimyo in the 16th century; they began making their own not long after. Guns are not engrained into the Japanese subconscious the way the sword is (the katana, it is said, is the soul of Japan)--but they *were* used, in exactly the same methodology that gave rise to the ryu systems.
I cannot recall the name of "marksmanship" as a Japanese martial art (has the character "fire" in it...) but "jugendo" is the art of fighting with fixed bayonet.

[Smejmoon]

"And let us not confuse karate with sports with the same name", Russian proverb ;)

Nice to be back at Budoseek,

G'irts Kalnins :wave:

[shinhoon]

I live in korea and am participated in hapkido for 15 years in korea.

during 1960 ~ 1988, Hapkido with Taekowndo was main martial art in Korea goverment(Police, militaries, Presidential Security Service) .
Presidential Security Services was trained Hapkido at that time.

Today, Presidential Security Services is training Tukkong Matrial art(combat art).
this art is based on Hapkido.

most general militaries are traing TaeKownDo basically. But, Special Forces are training Hapkido style(kicking, locking, throwing ...,).

ex)
Korea Marine Corps, Marine Special Force Recon, UDT/SEAL-> MU JEOK DO(being from hapkido)

Korea Presidential Security Service, korea Army Special Force, 707 Special Mission battalion(korea delta force) -> Tukkong Matrial art(being from hapkido)

at this time,many hapkido masters are former military man(Special Forces).
so Todays Hapkido style is very actual fighting and combat mode using strong musle power, which is different from old Choi Yiong Sul's technique.

at now, many young master who was formal Special Force had learned TaeKwondo, killing skill and Tukkong combat art teaches combat style HAPKIDO being based on Power and Speed.

originally Hapkido have an important technical point at Sulgi(jujitsu). it's GIULEEGI(inclining) and PULEONAGI(making a opponent powerless)
it is simillar to Aiki concept.
but many training time was nessasary to learn this perfectly.
so, Tukkong martial art was created by military martial art man at 1980.

so, military was appling to Power and Speed of young military mans about Hapkido's Skill.
at a real battle, speedy killing is important for him to protect other attacks.
"GIULEEGI, PULEONAGI, Aiki" need time and space more than today combat art.

Traditional old style hapkido is rare in korea.
Daitoryu and old style hapkido(Choi's origin technique) need many years for being appling to techniques in real battle field, but being used to, maybe more effective than any combat matrial art .
they don't have a bottomless of technique.
many time for learning a martial art is impossble at military strategy.

[John Bennett]

From Dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=martial)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mar·tial (märshl) - adj. - Of, relating to, or suggestive of war. - Relating to or connected with the armed forces or the profession of arms. - Characteristic of or befitting a warrior.

[Middle English, from Latin Mrtilis, from Mrs, Mrt-, Mars.]

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


martial \Mar"tial\, a. [F., fr. L. martialis of or belonging to Mars, the god of war. Cf. March the month.] 1. Of, pertaining to, or suited for, war; military; as, martial music; a martial appearance. ``Martial equipage.'' --Milton.

2. Practiced in, or inclined to, war; warlike; brave.

3. Belonging to war, or to an army and navy; -- opposed to civil; as, martial law; a court-martial.

4. Pertaining to, or resembling, the god, or the planet, Mars. --Sir T. Browne.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

martial adj 1: (of persons) befitting a warrior; "a military bearing" [syn: soldierly, soldierlike, warriorlike] 2: suggesting war or military life [syn: warlike] 3: or or relating to the armed forces; "martial law" [syn: martial(a)]

Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University

[beungood]

<<Hapkido does differ dojang to dojang but, its not sport oriented. Some styles of Hapkido (Sin Moo) teach kicking techniques which wouldn't normally be taught in Jujitsu but, there is lot of overlap between Jujitsu and Hapkido.>>

I think saying most styles of Hapkido instead of just Sin Moo Hapkido would be more acccurate statement about Hapkido kicking versus Jujitsu. Most of the Jujitsu I have see has very limited kicking selection versus Hapkido kicking.

Jack

[beungood]

CQC is designed to Kill, or stop using maximal force. On the battlefield, for example, I can bayonet you. On the street, I'd get the death penalty.
>>>>

Maybe not,Depending on the Police Officer involved.... ;-)

[kodanjaclay]

<<if the Samurai were around today do you think they would be using a sword? No they would be using firearms because that would be the most effiecient weapon at their disposal.>>

Actually, the Samurai did use firearms, once they were available. I would not confuse a Samurai with a martial artist. They were more like knights and were considered to be professionals.

<<Today, Presidential Security Services is training Tukkong Matrial art(combat art).
this art is based on Hapkido>>

Sorry Shinhoon. Having had the honor of training with Dae Un Yoon, I can say he did not do Tukong, Tukong Musool or any other variant. He does JinJungKwan Hapkido. Dae Un Yoon is an active Blue House Bodyguard.

ShaolinMarine, I'd love to see your sources on Okinawan historian and Karate. And, incidentally, when I was defining MU, Matial, I was defining its original Chinese character, which I have verified with Chinese sources, it does in fact compose of two ideograms. They are "to stop" and "spear". Also, having trained in CQC, I disagree. CQC is meant to get you away from someone in piece so you can get your weapon or theirs. To me, I found military CQC to be very basic. I had that training at Ft. Benning, GA. Also, I have trained with several Marines. Other than being very "hard style" I have to say, I didn't notice any diffferences. Military CQC teaches enough to get oneself in trouble. Actually, if one is in a CQC environment in the military, he IS in trouble.

<<I think saying most styles of Hapkido instead of just Sin Moo Hapkido would be more acccurate statement about Hapkido kicking versus Jujitsu. Most of the Jujitsu I have see has very limited kicking selection versus Hapkido kicking.>>

Jack, I have to say that I agree whole heartedly.

[shinhoon]

this is korea presidental secrity service homepage.
http://www.pss.go.kr/pss/d01.html
this page say that PSS martial art instructor 'JANG SOO OK' who have made ttukkong musul at Park President.

PSS introduce some demo videoclips
http://www.pss.go.kr/pss/sibum_list.jsp?v_page=1
Never find Hapkido. most of ttukkong musul.

presidental secrity service member must offially train 'ttukkong musul' for self-defence as if he have high degree of other art(hapkido, Judo, Kumdo)

until 1980th, PSS's official self-defence was Hapkido.
But at now, it is changed because of political reason.

[shinhoon]

http://www.pss.go.kr

it is offical korea PSS homepage(go.kr - goverment site, same to gov domain in USA).
if you can't believe my information, please contact webmaster@pss.go.kr

[kodanjaclay]

Shinhoon,

I must agree that subject needs to stay on the topic. If it can not be maintained, then I will have no alternative than to close the thread.

Please post your links in the Member Announcement section and leave the Hapkido forum to the educated discussion of Hapkido as a martial art and way.

Thank you.

[shinhoon]

I only indicated wrong infomation in this thread 'hapkido & aikido'

Some PSS member is hapkido master. but all of PSS is not.
hapkido is not official self-defence in PSS.

this information have any problem?
if my message about PSS in 'hapkido & aikido' thread have any problem, other messages that have no a relation 'hapkido & aikido' in this thead have same.

[kodanjaclay]

Shinhoon,

Consider this a last warning. I have asked you to post your links in the appropriate section of the website. Further, I have asked that you remain on the topic in this thread. You have failed to do so.

Considering you are Korean, and train in Korea, I would think that you could perhaps put an interesting light on the TOPIC which this thread is about: Hapkido vs. Aikido.

I am not going to warn you on this again, nor am I going to debate this. Please remain on topic.

Thread topic: Hapkido vs. Aikido.

Thank you.

[shinhoon]

I have not received your mail because of my mail address changing. it's bad thing for me. I want to see you.
next visiting time in korea, please contact me.
Choi Young Sul teached kicking skill (16 technique).
most of kick of his low kick(15), only one is high kick.
low kick in hapkido was from Choi Young Sul.
high kick & special kick was from JiHanJae, KimMooHong.
Choi Young Sul's technique is different from aikido.
it's similar to daitoryu. but daitoryu have not kicking technique at now like aikido.

hapkido's footwork is more important to novice than expert.
hapkido's expert do not use footwork and a big round hand & arm technique like aikido.
hapkido's expert make any flow(KI) like hand technique and footwork in his body.
so, we can see only small circle and short step from him.
the highest skill of hapkido sulki have no any motion, but people is flying in the air. it's big difference about aikido.

[shinhoon]

Sulki is a basic in hapkido. Sulki make hapki body for hapkido.
Sulki makes storng arm & wrist. it is very helpful for real fighting.
I think hapkido strike technique is the end of hapkido technique with hapki body.

Hankido is from KukJeYenMaeng-HapkiHwoi in korea(IHF founder, Myung Jae Nam made Hankido).

Myung Jae Nam firstly had learned korea hapkido. and then he went to the japan. he had learned aikido. I don't know about his training in japan.

in his old book at korea, he posted korea branch certificate of aikido(signed by uhesiba gishomaru)

firstly, he said his art "International AIKIKAI Federation".(it is included in his other hapkido book) but, soon changed IHF.

he made New Hapkido (Aikido + Hapkido).
it's my opinion.

choi young sul teached small stick & middle stick & long stick & sword. I have old photo of small sword fighting in Choi's Dojang.

but I don't know about cane. I think can technique is from other art or deformed middle stick technique. more study about...,

email : kadosu@hanmail.net

[shinhoon]

who is the writer and publisher? When and where the book are printed? what is the ISBN number? give me some more information.

[kodanjaclay]

Shinhoon, this is off the topic, but I posed this question to you elsewhere. What do you know of a "Korean" Martial Art called Hom-Do? Supposedly it is run by an American, named Patire (?). We have yet to be able to find anything on it, leading me to conclude this art is an American creation. Can you shed any light?

[shinhoon]

(first - his technique)
his art is simillar to 'hyuldo' technique of hapkido or japan jujitsu.
'hyuldo' technique which is pressing the weak point of body is a few in korea.

it is difficult to lock down a Big musle man by using only 'hyuldo' technique, because 'hyuldo' technique is originate from thin & non-musle people(ex; asia). but I can't confirm that homdo is same thing to hyuldo by only some internet information.

(second - I can't find it in korea)
I have never heard about homdo in korea.
this story is seem to like a action movie.

if it is real story that he learned from a korean in cebu, he can disclose some information(korean teacher name , age, any certificate, liniage, his hometown, his career ...,)
please contact him for more information.

[Pat Murphy]

Shinhoon,
Are you familiar with a style of Hapkido taught by Grand Master Jang, Young-Sil at his school in Pongtaek, SK? Techniques closely resemble Aikido... very circular with little striking and no kicking. School sometimes even wears Hakamas (sp) when training. I have been told that the style is actually Hapkiyoosool as taught by GM Choi, Young-Sool. The school operates under the banner of the International Hapkido Federation, but does not trace lineage to GM Myung, Jae Nam.

Your thoughts & comments are appreciated.

Respectfully,
Pat

[shinhoon]

his art maybe aikido.

according to his introduction, Jang Young Sil made his dojang with machda(International Aikido Fed) at Pyungtaek city in korea at 1970th.

IHF general style is a modified aikido(by Myung jae nam) + hapkido(kicking, fall down, sulki, weopon technique).
refer this..,
1. <IHF 2000 annual demonstration>
mms://movie.hapkido.re.kr/hapkido/3388/movie_128.asf

2.<IHF 1996 kicking demonstration>
http://www.myhapkido.co.kr/myhapkido.co.kr/VODEO-JDK-11.asf

3. more IHF videoclip in korea.
http://www.myhapkido.co.kr/mov02.htm

despite of ambiguous history of IHF, many martial artist in korea said Myung Jae Nam was genius about making a new technique.
as a result, he made IHF, hankido, hankumdo, muyedo,... an so on. and I think IHF's technique is good, too. it was Myung's best creative art.

choi young sul disliked many footwork and big space in his art.
he liked teaching at small space(about 3*3m)
his art was similar to daitoryu more than aikido.

I have 30 photos of choi young sul. and my teacher(Kim yun Sang) have about 500 photos of choi young sul. according to this photo and my teacher's speak, he did'nt wear 'hakama' in korea, he liked korean general wear.

I sent you more information by e-mail.

[Pat Murphy]

ShinHoon,
Thank you for the information and I appreciate your thoughts. I would be interested in any additional information regarding the IHF and GM Jang you may come across.

Thank You!,
Pat

[aklhapkido]

Hi Joseph,

Ok getting right back to topic...some info on Hapkido in New Zealand :)

Hapkido in New Zealand was established in the 1970's by Grandmaster Lee Jung Nam. (You may read about Grandmaster Lee at http://www.hapkido.org.nz/gmlee.htm).

My understanding is that there is a certain amount af variation across hapkido styles - that is some styles have more kicking techniques, some have forms/patterns, etc. No doubt there is some variation across Aikido styles as well.

Kukjae Hapkido _is_ very self-defence orientated - especially considering GM Lee's background as a Captain and hapkido instructor in the South Korean Special Forces.

I have been training in this style for 6 years and can say there are many street applications. I can't really say how it compares to Aikido. Saying that though one of the guys in our club has also trainied in an Aikido style tells me there is a fair amount of similar techniques in there. I've been told by a different person that there are similarities to JuJitsu.

Is you'd like more info about hapkido in New Zealand check out our website at http://www.hapkido.org.nz. There are active clubs in Auckland, Hutt Valley, Wellington, Palmerston North, Nelson, and Dunedin.

Hope that helps...

Aaron Hochwimmer

[Hapkiyoosool]

If I May Please,

We have a diferences chart on our website that ay answer a lot of questions of the two.

ON our history page.
http://www.hapkiyoosool.com/hist.htm

I have ansered this question so many times I just direct you there.

As far as GM Jang, our style is NOT Aikido. We invited Masuda Sensei from the AIkido federation as a guest and friend at our grand opening of the new facility in 1970. We are NOT Aikido. We travel to Japan every summer to train in there though, friendship seminars and such. Daito-Ryu is both our roots.

Our style is VERY small circles. We are very much GM Choi's technique. Aikido schools call us barbarians due to the fact that we HOLD ON when we throw and complete the harder technique. Hard break falls are absolutely necessary. Pressure points are used in Every technique and those students of mine who see the advanced practice would see that. We do not use kicks in any of our techniques, your feet stay on the floor. We are absolutely rooted from Daito-Ryu. Every visitor from the Aiki arts sees that. The problem is, students don't stick around long enough to learn it correctly. They get to two or three months of practice and quit. Busy life or whatever. When I first started teaching in the US I was very soft to my students until I realized theay can handle whatever we dish out. Our school is now very busy and we have defectors from other "Hapkido" and Aikido schools weekly.
We know have some black belts and many advanced belts. NOW is the time to train.

We are having a Seminar on November 14 & 15 of 2003. Email me and I will get you a word format copy. hapkiyoosool@msn.com

[WMKS Shogun]

ummm...way back on the first page, you guys were talking about the difference between a martial art and CQC. Maybe it is because it is late, but, what is a CQC (what does CQC stand for?)

on subject, way back at the beginning: i found hapkido to be more like jujitsu(jujutsu) than aikido. when i was doing some training in jujitsu(jujutsu), we included strikes and kicks, which many hapkido schools also teach. regardless, of what style someone trains in, it is important to learn as much as possible, know the limitations, and innovate or cross train (i recommend the second) to fill in the gaps.

[WMKS Shogun]

nevermind....close quarter combat. asked a friend who happened to be online. but there it is, just in case anyone else was reading thru the thread and was confused like i was.

[Hapkiyoosool]

In the military we called it CQB also. Close Quarter Battle.

One thing I have to say though about cross training, I was taught growing up in Korea to NEVER cross train.

Mastering an art is a life time, not a season. If you master an art, ( not a jack of all trades) and it is taught correctly, you should not need to cross train. It is important however to learn about other styles so you may build your defense tactics to defend against their attacks. Just like the military knows the enemies weapons. Martial (military) art. Providing they attack. Aikido, Hapkido, Yudo, and such arts do not attack. I have NEVER seen a school in Korea that taught more than one art. Or in Asia period actually.

We are Americans and we are innovators. We believe we can make everything better by cross-breeding. Some yes, some no.
When you cross train, your muscle memory can get confused and it slows down your reaction time. You could even get mind-twisted in a confrontation and get hurt because you are not sure what technique to use from what style you may have learned. If you are in a "one way" mind set, you will never be confused.

If you need to cross train to feel better about yourself, please have a great time. More power to you. I congatulate you. As for me, I will stick to what I know. Having used what I know in the hard streets of Asia and America. Please forgive me if I sound like a "tough guy". I am not. Tough guys hang out in bars and have no self esteem. Hard shell and empty inside. Lonely, angry, and bittter. Self destruction is there goal. In Korea we call them "GgangTtong" which means empty can. Looks good, makes a big noise but always gets injured when it throws its weight around. I know what we do works and that is all that counts, to go home to your family.

With 5,000 years of battle proven history, matial arts needs to be taught right. Some say "traditional" arts are no good in todays world. I say pooey! People attack the same now as they did 2,000 years ago. People are people. You can punch & grab with your hands. You can kick and trip with your feet. Coincedently, kicks were originaly designed to knock down horses and the rider. Horses legs are easier to break that humans. High kicks used to break the rider leg, can't ride with a broken leg or to hit the horse in flank or throat. Flying kicks to knock the rider off a horse. Jump from a hill side as they come by.

Knife, sword, gun, stick, and any other weapon can be defended against the same now as 100 years ago. The Asians had contact with the Spaniards, Russians, and other gun toting races that wanted their land. They are still there. No one took it.

I have found in my experience, that if you have a complete and true Master of an art, and that master has a student that sticks around long enough to get everything the master has to offer. They to will be a master of an art. The Chinese clligraphy of "do" or "tao" means "the one way". Not one of many ways, not this way and that way. It means "the one way". One body, one mind, one spirit, one master, one life, one art.

The problem is that we want to jump around and try this and try that to see where we fit in. I am a firm beleiver in the Asian philosophy that the art chooses the person. It should fit your body style and personality.
Don't try to fill in the void in your life with confusion. Choose what way you will go and stick to it. Be committed to your master and your art. Don't "cheat" on your master with others. Be monogamous if you will.


Thank you for your patience.

[kodanjaclay]

<<When you cross train, your muscle memory can get confused and it slows down your reaction time. You could even get mind-twisted in a confrontation and get hurt because you are not sure what technique to use from what style you may have learned.>>

This is not true. The human body responds to a stimuli as a method for growth. Further, having been in combat situations on the street, I can say that nine times out of ten, there is little thought involved, it is simply reaction.

<<Knife, sword, gun, stick, and any other weapon can be defended against the same now as 100 years ago. The Asians had contact with the Spaniards, Russians, and other gun toting races that wanted their land. They are still there. No one took >>

This is also not accurate. Remember Ghngis Khan? He conqured almost all of China. Further, 100 years ago the mechanisms allowing for automatic fire were not in place. Remember too that historians have indicated the reason for the defeat of the Native American was the advent of the Winchester repeating rifle.

<<The Chinese clligraphy of "do" or "tao" means "the one way". Not one of many ways, not this way and that way. It means "the one way". One body, one mind, one spirit, one master, one life, one art. >>

As one who has studied Taoism since childhood, I can say this is unequivably false. There is no accurate translation of Tao, and further it does not refer to a martial concept per se. Even the Laotzi begins that "the Tao that can be spoken of is not the Tao". This means that once one begins to speak about it, one has aready deviated.

I disagree with the suppositions set forth... you CAN infact find schools that teach multiple arts. Chines schools do it very frequently... for example, the Three Treasures are frequently taught in the same school, as they were intended to be complimentary... They are Bagua, Hsing Yi and Tajiquan. In Korea, Lee, Seok Kyu teaches both Yudo and Simkido...

One must always be cautious with blanket statements. They will always be false (lol - see another blanket statement). Martial arts are not divinely created which allows for an inherent weakness. Those weaknesses need to be nullified, and the only way to do so is cross training. A stand up fighter cannot learn to grapple by attended a couple of classes... you must train it and work it. And trust me, I have seen many "expert" stand up fighters who train very hard go down... I myself have had to take them down. And sir, no offense, but I would challenge pratically anyone to try and take a weapon from me. Many of those techniques are fanciful. I have had trained people try and take my 9mm from me and even tried to grapple out from under my nightstick. The average person does not have need to train in such a manner to be competant to do so, and further, even if they have, you cannot teach someone to have the necessary "killer" instinct. You either have it or don't.

Finally, EVERYONE is subject to the deer in the headlight syndrom irrespective of training.

[Hapkiyoosool]

Well, I enjoy sharing our talks. They are really good.

When I talk about the calligraphy, I am not talking about Taoism nor religion, this is what the calligraphy literally means. If you want to ask an Asian, go ahead. They will say the same thing as me. The calligraphy(HanMoon in Korean) "Do" which is pronounced "Tao" in Chinese. Is a two part calligraphy. One is the head of a man(right side) and the other is a road(to the left). One man, one road or way. That is what I was taught in Korea at Seoul University. Chinese pronounce "Ai Ki Do" calligraphy as "Hui Chi Tao", unless you are from Hong Kong and speak Cantonese, you then say "Hap Hye Do". Koreans say "Hap Ki Do". Same calligraphy.

About cross training You say,
<<This is not true. The human body responds to a stimuli as a method for growth. Further, having been in combat situations on the street, I can say that nine times out of ten, there is little thought involved, it is simply reaction.>>

I have found in my experience, that if you have a complete and true art, and your student sticks around long enough to get everything the master has to offer. They to will be a complete master of a complete art.

Ther is NO time for thinking. You must reflex, muscle memory. All the time I teach, "Reaction is thought before action". I wrote an article about that. I have learned more studying one art than 99% of people here in the US have learned training in 10. Not to brag or sound arrogant but, you have to complete ALL your training under that master. Not jump around. Most instrucotrs in the west have never stuck with a master more thatn 5 years or the master resfuses to teach everything to his students. A first grade cerificate (1 Dan) means NOTHING in Korea. You are baby at this stage. It take you one year to get that at 3 hours a day 5 days a week. Harsh training, not a "good workout" like here in the US. In Korea you must have a 5 Dan to open a school. In America, you can open a own school without a black belt at all. No government regulation on the arts here in the US. Schools in Korea get inspected quarterly and yearly by the government. No Kidding. I see this all the time too, Asian comes to America and teaches a bunch of crap and we believe them because afterall, they're "Asian masters who know what they are doing". This is not always true. I know plenty of Asian people that are not REAL masters. As a matter of fact, some have barely studied, only in their 3 year stint in the military and know just enough to pass themselves off as a master and even buy master certification from legitimate masters who are in dire need of money and have the choice of giving certification or starving to death. This only happens in rare cases but, it happens. I have been with the same instructor basically all my life. Over 26 years in one art. Of course I had the pleasure of "growing up" in Korea and getting attacked almost everyday everywhere I went because I am not Asian, Blonde with blue eyes in fact. The only one in class. I have no problems defending against ANY kind of attack. Standing or ground. Empty hand or gun or knife.

You say,
<<This is also not accurate. Remember Ghngis Khan? He conqured almost all of China. Further, 100 years ago the mechanisms allowing for automatic fire were not in place. Remember too that historians have indicated the reason for the defeat of the Native American was the advent of the Winchester repeating rifle.>>

First , Ghengis Kahn is Asian. Not Russian, nor Spanish. He knew the tactics of his own people. Asians are very different thinkers than Westerners. Next, Gun defense is for CQB (close quarter battle), people you can reach or guerilla warfare, and hand to hand combat. Not against snipers, automatic weapons, or long range calvary. Oh yeah, biological warefare neither. I look for a bullet collector like trees and let them run out of bullets or patience. Let them come to you. Then they belong to us. ^_^ I am NOT going to charge a machine gun nest, I will use subversive tactics. If I see all my team members falling around me, I am going to go another way. Bravery and stupidity often get confused in combat. Sometimes you must cut your losses, retreat, regroup, gather intell,(if there is time, re-train), re-plan, re-attack. The poor American natives(Indians), they had no idea what a gun was until it was to late.

You say,
<<Martial arts are not divinely created which allows for an inherent weakness. Those weaknesses need to be nullified, and the only way to do so is cross training. A stand up fighter cannot learn to grapple by attended a couple of classes... you must train it and work it. And trust me, I have seen many "expert" stand up fighters who train very hard go down... I myself have had to take them down>>

Martial arts have no weakness when taught correctly, people are the weak link in that chain. The chain is only as strong as its weakest link. The techniques never fail. People do. Long ago Martial arts school were like doctors. They had to learn everything. Now we have foot specialist(karate), hand specialists(Hapki style arts), and Surgeons(kenjutsu). The list goes on and on. I was told that you had to complete all your training in one art in order to train in another. Each art is a life time when taught completely. I have been challenged by just about every "style" out there in my life. I fail to see what they have to gain by specializing, you do limit yourself. You are right. You must complete all your taining in the whole art. We have many Korean and Japanese students and we laugh about these things all time. They absolutely train as in Asia in our school, no games, no sympathy.


You say,
<<And sir, no offense, but I would challenge pratically anyone to try and take a weapon from me. Many of those techniques are fanciful. I have had trained people try and take my 9mm from me and even tried to grapple out from under my nightstick. The average person does not have need to train in such a manner to be competant to do so, and further, even if they have, you cannot teach someone to have the necessary "killer" instinct. You either have it or don't. >>

If you stick a gun in my face trying to rob or kill me, you have NO idea that I will defend myself nor what I am going to do. Guns are a magic wand for some, they think it will solve all their problems, even unto suicide. I tell my students, only the weak kill themselves. It is the easy way out. Animals don't kill themselves if cornered. They have an overwilling need to survive. And they will die trying. People use guns to threaten physical violence and intimidate you. They believe you are weaker then them or they are very despirate or mentaly ill, that is why they attack you. Predators go after what they feel is weak, or sick, young, and old. In a class room situation, you can fight out of techniques. You have a safety net. No one is really going to die. The average person that will stick a gun in your face is not a cop or military. Thery are street punks. If a cop is sticking a gun in your face, get down and give in. I have used my traditional art in military REAL life combat situations, it has NEVER failed me, EVER. I have only trained in ONE art. As far as killer instinct, those that do get it and are not supposed to have it, they will have serious mental problems. It si too heavy for them. A lot of guys came back from Vietnam messed up, not combat minded folk. Hey, if you enjoy cross training, go for it. I don't see the need for it if you learn it right, from the right person.

You Say,
<<I disagree with the suppositions set forth... you CAN infact find schools that teach multiple arts. >>

Bagua(joint manipulation), Hsing Yi (??), and Taijiquan(the slow movement of the same techniques) do compliment each other. Koreans call it TaeKukKwan. In Hapkiyoosool, we do all of these. We do not classify them seperately. They are part of the same art, all inclusive. As for Lee, Seok Kyu. I have never heard of ShimKiDo, I will look into it and ask some Instructor friends in Korea to give me their opinion. All I know is that in Korea, when some one teaches more than one style in the same school (a hard style and a soft style), they are looked upon as "bad technique". This is what the Korean say. They are both circular arts from what I know. Not a "hard" style and soft style taught together.

I would like to invite all of you to our seminar in November 14 & 15. I think about all the people that want our techniques on tape. I get asked all the time. I think it is something they need to do is come and learn form us, here, in person. There is no experience like the real thing. Something you can never "feel" on a video tape.

The contact info is on our website. I am absolutely positive you have NEVER seen a school like this. I can promise that. We have people come into our school all the time challenging us. They get on the mat for a few minutes and tell me they are going to sue me for hurting them. :cry:
The Real masters stay at home and tend their flock. They don;t go out looking to prove themselves. They KNOW what they can do. If the grass looks greener on the other side of the fence, you're not taking care of your own yard. You'll also be too busy training at your school to look anywhere else anyway.
If they come to our school and challenge. They must be prepared to go all the way. If I get hurt and cannot provide for my family beacuse someone hurt me. They have indirectly threatened the welfare of my family by challening us. I will protect my family's well being even at the sacrifice of their life. I WILL go home to my family. I am sure you feel the same way.

I encourage everyone to do what they feel they must. Go for it!
As for me. One art and dedicated to my instructor forever.
Train hard!

[kodanjaclay]

Master Allen,

Though I cannot say I fully agree, you brought up some excellent points.

Lee, Sauk Kyu was head of ROKYA I believe for a time. ShimKiDo is supposed to be a derivative of a Shaolin art, but I don't understand why the first set is called ShimKiKwan, as the original set is called Shao Hong Quan. Maybe its the Korean pronunciation?

Thanks in advance for your research. I don't know that I will be able to make it as I'm supposed to be in Orlando in October for Grandmaster Oh Se Lim... However, I just found out that my family will be growing by one, so in the interests of budgeting, and planning I may have to forego that as well.

Thanks again

[yamatodamashii]

Originally posted by Hapkiyoosool
When I talk about the calligraphy, I am not talking about Taoism nor religion, this is what the calligraphy literally means.

There is no number indicator in the character "dao". Depending on the syntax of the sentence, it can mean "a road", "Road" or "Street" (as in "Cherry Street") or "roads", but to indicate "one road", as you suggest, would require the presence of the character "yi" ("one").


Originally posted by Hapkiyoosool

I have found in my experience, that if you have a complete and true art, and your student sticks around long enough to get everything the master has to offer. They to will be a complete master of a complete art.

In my experience, there are no complete arts. If there were, there would be only one art.


Originally posted by Hapkiyoosool

I have no problems defending against ANY kind of attack. Standing or ground. Empty hand or gun or knife.

Not to be an ass, but how many times have you been attacked with a gun?



Originally posted by Hapkiyoosool

First , Ghengis Kahn is Asian. Not Russian, nor Spanish.

I'm quite certain that my Russian friends will be surprised to find out that they are not Asian...


Originally posted by Hapkiyoosool

Next, Gun defense is for CQB (close quarter battle), people you can reach or guerilla warfare, and hand to hand combat. Not against snipers, automatic weapons, or long range calvary. Oh yeah, biological warefare neither. I look for a bullet collector like trees and let them run out of bullets or patience.
Actually, I would say that seeking cover *is* a gun defense which is utilized against opponents which cannot be reached. However, if you think trees (or cars, or concrete walls) are protection against most bullets, you will be in for a rude surprise if the situation ever arises. A 7.62 round will go right through an 8" thick tree.


Originally posted by Hapkiyoosool

The poor American natives(Indians), they had no idea what a gun was until it was to late.

Actually, during the course of hostilities between the U.S. and various Native American nations, many native societies developed good marksmen. They never had the technology to produce guns, but they could buy and steal them, and they certainly learned how to use them.


Originally posted by Hapkiyoosool

Martial arts have no weakness when taught correctly, people are the weak link in that chain.

Since all martial arts are taught *by* people *to* people, I fail to see the relevance of this entire paragraph... Sorry.


Originally posted by Hapkiyoosool

If you stick a gun in my face trying to rob or kill me, you have NO idea that I will defend myself nor what I am going to do. Guns are a magic wand for some, they think it will solve all their problems, even unto suicide. I tell my students, only the weak kill themselves. It is the easy way out. Animals don't kill themselves if cornered. They have an overwilling need to survive. And they will die trying.

Animals are generally not self-aware enough to realize that there is a "them" to kill in the first place, and those few which are (such as gorillas) do not have the cognitive function to grasp the idea of suicide. There are numerous documented cases of depressed animals simply lying down and dying--check at any zoo.
Not that I in any way advocate suicide, I'm just putting your comment in perspective.


Originally posted by Hapkiyoosool

People use guns to threaten physical violence and intimidate you. They believe you are weaker then them or they are very despirate or mentaly ill, that is why they attack you. Predators go after what they feel is weak, or sick, young, and old.

If an aggressor has a gun and you don't, you *are* weaker than they. It is a weakness which can, with luck and training, be surmounted, but it is also one which you seem greatly to underestimate. A gun represents a *huge* advantage in a violent confrontration, far beyond the advantages conferred by any previous weapon.


Originally posted by Hapkiyoosool

I don't see the need for it if you learn it right, from the right person.

What about people who live in areas with no access to qualified instructors? Instructors which, as you yourself say earlier, are very rare in the U.S.?


Originally posted by Hapkiyoosool

Bagua(joint manipulation), Hsing Yi (??), and Taijiquan(the slow movement of the same techniques) do compliment each other. Koreans call it TaeKukKwan. In Hapkiyoosool, we do all of these. We do not classify them seperately.

You have a complete misunderstanding of what ba gua, xing i, and taiji quan are. These are three separate and distinct martial arts. In fact, there are several sub-styles of each, and at least one style (Liu He Ba Fa) is a combination of the three. I dare you to go to Chen village and tell them that taiji is practicing slowly!

Also, at this point, I'd like to mention the historica Shaolin temples, each of which might teach upwards of a dozen entirely separate martial arts at any given time (drunken style, five animals, Northern fist, Southern fist, white crane (not to be confused with the "crane" element of five animals)... etc.)

And finally--Congratulations, Master Clay!

[yamatodamashii]

Ran out of time for editing. :)

I'd also like to point out that the idea of martial arts as "do" is a *very* recent development, and does *not* reflect the attitude of warriors who considered martial arts to be their ultimate weapon in actual warfare. In Tokugawa-era Japan, for instance, a warrior attaining Menkyo Kaiden (certificate of full transmission of a style, usually taking about 10 years of training) was *expected* to go on a journey to study under different masters and fight at other schools. Specifically to bring new knowledge back to the home school and keep them vital.

This tradition was also followed in many schools in China--and therefore, I would be very surprised if it were not also practiced in Korea. This idea of "you get everything you need from me and me only" is *not* traditional at all. It is very modern.

[kodanjaclay]

Thanks I appreciate it...

Musashi studied several different styles...

It is rumored that the 10 Southbound Dragons studied different styles...

But even better, if in Korea they only study one art for a lifetime, then how is it that there are Koreans here who have studied two, usually Hapkido and Taekwondo? My first Grandmaster studied praying mantis, MDK, and Gum Do, and he was Korean.

I think that we will have to agree to disagree... and Jason is right
Do is a modern concept. Many warriors "adapted what was useful and discarded the rest". Heck, in Chinese folklore there are many stories about Master XTZ going to study with Master ABC. And as far as Taijiquan, even yang has fast movements.

[Chris Crawford]

If a Hapkido student traveled to a Juijitsu school and trained for a year, would you say that the student was then a student of juijitsu? Or would the Hapkido student be accomplishing what Master Allen was speaking of when he said that you study other forms of attack to better your defense against those attacks.

I have studied Karate, TKD, and Hapkido. I am however a Hapkido practitioner. I studied those art forms out of necessity (no Hapkido schools in Saudi Arabia, or Phoenix AZ for that matter. Until now) but I never left my true base of Hapkido. I feel that the training I received in Karate and TKD has made me a better Martial artist not because I intend to employ those techniques, but because it gives me insight to the thought process of attack from other styles. It aids me in implementing my "Hapkido" defense techniques.

So I agree with the idea of learning other styles of martial arts. Not to become a "crosstrainer", but to gain a better understanding of other arts to increase the efectiveness of my defense.

Humility Before Honor. HKD 4 Life.

Chris Crawford

[kodanjaclay]

I agree Chris. A cursory training is not going to give you enough about any system to be able to nullify it...

Remember the Sun Tzi... a man who knows neither himself nor his opponent has any chance of victory. a man who knows only himself has 50% chance of victory, but a man who knows both himself and his opponent has 100% chance of victory. This was written a few years before Hapkido, Daito Ryu or many of the "modern" martial arts. And has been shown through time to be a virtual law.

[John_IHF]

Daito Ryu only means Big East.

[kodanjaclay]

John,

If you read what I wrote the name is somewhat irrelevent. I am talking about a document which was written well before any of the events, players and arts were conceived of. The original work was witten sometime around 510 BCE (or BC for those unfamiliar with the BCE/CE convention). The Sun Tzi is considered the oldest military treatise in the world, and yet, still so terribly relevent. Sun Tzu himself lived from 544 to 496 BCE. He was, it would seem from his writings, a very wise individual.

[moksha]

MR. Clay,


I agree with what you said, but I still don't understand what this has to do with the topic of the original thread.I find that these discussions sometimes become futile.All I know is that there is a big difference between traditional, and modern Hapkido.Oh and by the way sun tzu, and his writings were pretty good, but if he was so smart about combat then why did china get crushed by the mongols? Anyway I have argued the point of are federation compared to others, and other schools, and I have to say that I'm getting out of breath. If noone believes myself or Master Allen that are school is probably the most traditional school in the U.S then come by and see for your self don't talk, or argue about it.or if your brave you can go to korea to are HQ, and let GM Jang show you. I remember a saying by one of the most famous buddhist monks Lin Chi. He says "the truth cannot be said and once you have said it you have already falsified it" - Lin Chi.

[ushankido]

<<if he was so smart about combat then why did china get crushed by the mongols? >>

Wasn't part of the Korean peninsula included as well. In her history, Korea always had to pay repsect to her big brother China.

[yamatodamashii]

The original thread topic was whether aikido or hapkido would be a better source of additional training for someone who enjoyed jujutsu but couldn't get enough training in that style. The answer, of course, being "it depends".
Since hapkido was created in the 1950's, I fail to see how a distinction can be made between "traditional" and "modern". Please clarify?

On Sun Tze vs. Ghengis Khan: First, Sun Tze only had one "writing". Second, the Sun Tze manuscript was written at least 250 BCE, while Khan lead the Mongols into China in the 13th century--Sun Tze's "smartness" would have been irrelevant by at least 1500 years. Finally, read the Sun Tze manuscript (commonly mistitled "The Art of War" in English) and compare it to Ghengis Khan's tactics. Khan used instinctively what the Chinese had to study.

[kodanjaclay]

Well said Jason...

I think history should be studied a tad more. It has very important lessons...

The philosophy of Hapkido is in line with Taoist thinking. It is also inline with the Sun Tzi, hence its relevance here. As far as an Aikido debate, that should be moved to a different forum. Hapkido and Aikido, as well as most martial ventures, are slightly different roads, but each with the same goal in mind.

Of course I have been but a humble student for some two and a half decades so, I could be off. Maybe in another two and a half I'll be closer to the truth.

Michael,

<<I have to say that I'm getting out of breath. If noone believes myself or Master Allen that are school is probably the most traditional school in the U.S then come by and see for your self don't talk, or argue about it.or if your brave you can go to korea to are HQ>>

This is inappropriate and very disrespctful. Remember that large egos are often carried by small minds. Tell me this, have you been to every school in the US? Do you honestly think Master Allen is the only person to ever train in Korea? Don't you think that by that statement you are slapping most other instructors in the face? Is that in line with the teachings of Hapkido? Remember Way of Coordinated power... to coordinate means everything must function as one unit... that means mind, body and spirit.

A cautionary note here: this forum was almost lost due to the arrogance of its visitors, and the insulting and egging of each other on. I cannot and will not tolerate this in any way shape or form. Disagreement is one thing, but it WILL be done with respect and decorum, or the offending party may have issues in returning. I don't like getting involved like this, but this needs to be toned down a little bit. I am not into propaganda, and I don't want or need it in the forum I moderate.

Now back to the regularly scheduled debate.

[ushankido]

Well put kodanjaclay.

moksha: Respect is taught from day one in most martial art schools. It's pretty insulting to make such statements.

How long have you been studying Hapkido?

[moksha]

Yamatodamashii,


First of all I have read the"art of war". I find it irrelivant to the Hapki,and Aiki arts considering that the two come from Aiki ju-jutsu. The art used by the samurai, or yongsa.The reason many historians consider the samurai to be some of the greatest warriors that ever existed is because they used mushim, or (no mind). This means they did not react to an attack they used reflex.To use reaction means to think before action. Scientificaly it takes about 1 second to react to something, because it takes that long for the brain to deliver the message to the body. Where as the use of mushim does not use this 1 second of delay.So you can see why sun tzu's writing is irrelevent to the Hapki, or Aiki precepts because anything that is written comes from the mind. The Aiki and Hapki arts use feeling instead of mind. Thats why I would rather use the words movements instead of technique becaus the very word technique has to use the mind as a base, where as movements does not.Also yes Hapkido was not around until 1948, but I would not call it modern. The original teachings of GM Choi are exactly like Aiki ju-jutsu, with the exeption of the kicks. Infact the card that GM Choi gave to his first student Su Bok-Sup, had the words ya wa ra written on it. Which we all know is an ancient form of Aiki ju-jutsu. So I would not call Hapkiyoosool, the original teachings of GM Choi modern. Thank you for your time.

[kodanjaclay]

Master Choi taught a modern martial art. A bit of history for you..
Douglas MacAurthur forced the closing of all traditional dojo at the close of WWII. In order to reopen, they had to prove they were no longer warrior arts. This is not speculation it is fact. So here is where the big split entered. As a simple matter of legality, Sokaku Takeda would have been prosecuted had he been caught teaching the martial traditions as he knew them. Its a fact. I didn't make this up, it happened.

Choi studied in the 20th century... this is the historical dividing mark between feudal Japan and modern Japan in respect to her martial paths.

Now because you, or I, don't like something, that does not mean that we should focus on the way we want things to be. There is nothing wrong with an art being modern. Heck, do you think that in the 19th century martial artists had to deal with highly accurate, rapidly repeating small arms? That is a modern threat. In order for any art to be relevant, that art needs to adapt to the needs of its adherents, in response to the threats, or stimuli faced... now about the science of you comment... it is wrong. it takes, if memory serves, 0.2 seconds for a nervous impulse to travel from one side of the body to the other. The proposition you put forth is then disputed by your own assertation:

Scientificaly it takes about 1 second to react to something, because it takes that long for the brain to deliver the message to the body. Where as the use of mushim does not use this 1 second of delay.

I'm not quite sure where you learned this, but mushin is not something mystical that makes nervous impulses move any faster. It represents the state of a natural man, or P'u the uncarved block... a state that Taoists try to achieve because in that state not only are you faster, but you are stronger, because of the Hap and the Ki. This is the same reason babies are so fast, ask any parent that one, or strong... ever had an infant grab hold of your finger?

In closing, I know you are proud of your teacher. Do not do him a disservice by your words or actions. Teachers are known by the actions of their students.

[moksha]

Kodanjaclay,

First of all you just contridicted your self by saying GM Choi's teachings are modern. You said Takeda sensei would have been procecuted if he had been caught training,but Takeda died before that statement was signed by Macarthur, so therefore Choi had already learned the art before the act was passed. Now I do agree with the fact that an art does have to adapt to modern weaponry, but that does not mean the basic platform is modern. Thats why Hapkido is a good art for modern times I don't see traditional Kung-fu adapting to modern weaponry.Also my thoughts on mushim come from me being hindu, and studying the 5500 year old sanscrit tantra, which has nothing to do with martial arts I was just making a comparison. So my point is that it might not be one second or .02 seconds, but what difference does it make if we were that educated on science I think we would be scientist not martial artist.

[kodanjaclay]

Ok... Mushim is korean and mushin is Japanese and neither come from Hindu thought.

This thread simply going in circles, so if there is nothing productive anyone else has to add, I will close it.

[kodanjaclay]

Incidentally,

You are correct in saying that Takeda Sensei died before that document. Takeda died in amori in 1943. The end of the Japanese conflict with the US was not until 1945 when the second bomb, fat man i'm thinking, was dropped on Nagasaki like three days after Hiroshima. Good catch.. my mistake.

[moksha]

Kodanjaclay,

I know the word mushim I just use that because we are in a martial arts forum. the word to describe mushim in sanscrit is my user name Moksha, which means to go beyond mind. same thing.

[kodanjaclay]

Ok, Michael. Well that appears to be about it.

[Chris Crawford]

I am sorry, once again we have relegated ourselves to trying to prove those things that happened so long ago and effects so little of what we do. I believe that there were many great warriors in the past whose teachings should be studied and applied where it is relevant to do so. It so happens that record keeping was not the greatest strength of those ancient warriors. Although they tried, laptop computers just were not available back then. Wars and decay have destroyed many of the records that were kept, and the authenticity of the ones that remain are very difficult to prove. Especially when you consider that information exchange back then was mainly accomplished by people traveling from place to place telling stories from where they came. We have all tried the same exercise in elementary school where you whisper the story to a person who sends it around the room. It is always different when it comes back.

I'm just saying, instead of dragging this down to a debate about he said - she said, I think we should focus on the core of the discussion. Especially if the question at hand originates from a student with no backgroung in Hapkido. I don't want a Juijitsu, Karate, TKD, or any other student from another art to come away thinking we are a bunch of up-tight, self-absobed people that can't even hold a simple discussion on the similarities and differences of Hapkido and and Aikido without coming to blows. It's quite embarrasing.

GM Jang used to tell me "Aikido and Hapkido are brothers". I believe this wholly. While I was in Korea, another GI came to Songtan TDY from Hawaii (tough assignment!). He was a student of Aikido and saw us in the base gym practicing. He stopped by after class and spoke with us about training. For the next 2 months, he trained with us daily. His movements were fluid and his style very graceful. The differences were noticable, but also negligible. Basically, he performed the same movement we did with slight variations. That is the only brush I have had with Aikido, but I came away respctful, as did the Aikido student who went back to Hawaii. I hope that will help those who are interested as to the differences.

Humility Before Honor. HKD 4 Life

Chris Crawford

[kodanjaclay]

For an airman, you make alot of sense... (former Army here)

No matter what guise the art of Hapkido takes two things are universal:

a) it does not matter who trains with whom or what master is best.

b) there are a whole lot of people out there that this art can touch and benefit. I myself am trying to get a youth outreach going for at risk kids.

I recommend we take Chris's advice and work on who can help who do what.

HAPKI!

[Mushim78]

Did anybody call me???? I heard my name ...............:D (mushim)



Just to help lighten up the moods in the forum... I personally love this art because is completly (or mostly if you preffer) self-defense, let's keep it that way... Just to say one little thing about reflex and reaction... Reaction comes from the brain (as in chemical process if you wanna call it that); when a stumuli has gotten to the brain and this "orders" the part of the body affected to react to the stimuli.... Now, reflex is something else. When you hold in your hand something that's very hot-for example when you retrieve a cup with water after being heating up for 5 minutes- the stimli is so strong it does not get all the way to your brain!!!! It gets to the spinal cord and is this "organ" thats sends the impulse to the hand to let go of the cup....a moment later you feel the pain... Own experience!:cry: That's how amazing is the human body! That's why reflex is faster than reaction (microseconds, but faster anyways). I asked a neuropsychologyst if anybody wants to ask later on...

To go back to the topic of discussion... Chris is right, Aikido and Hapkido are brothers, and everybody that is not an only-child knows 1st hand, just because you are part of the same family doesn't mean that you are the same person as your sibling...:alien: Is my understanding that Aikido is more gracefull and has bigger circles, as in Hapkido you find smaller circles and -as everybody here knows- we don't care about how pretty it might look. Not that one is more effective than the other one... Is just that a father or mother doesn't have favorites..!!
And if you are still curious, Joseph.... don't take our word for it . Try it yourself and make your own conclusions

Peace! :hippie:

[yamatodamashii]

Michael:

The Sun Tze manuscript is called The Art of War for a reason. Ghengis Khan did not conquer Asia by practicing one-on-one self defense techniques against everyone he met--he was a general in charge of an army, and that most certainly *does* require thought and planning.
Sun Tze's precepts become largely--although not entirely--irrelevant once the first punch is thrown. Their use is in making sure that you have greatest possible advantage once the fight starts--and in avoiding fights altogether. Which is undoubtedly why Sun Tze was studied by so widely in feudal Japan, as well.

[ushankido]

Here's an interesting article that was published by Black Belt magazine in 1965 regarding hapkido.

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1965/aug65/hapkido/hapkido.html

Also, this website contains video footage of GM Choi. Click on the picture of him in the right corner:

http://jungkikwan.com/index1.htm

[moksha]

USHANKIDO,

I just visited the article you displayed, and I have to say that I was diappointed in that information. First of all GM Choi started teaching in 1948 after returning from japan, not 1954. Secondly, GM Choi's first student was SU BOK-SUP, not the man named in that article. I would also like to mention the pictures in that article. The pic. of the kicking I have a hard time believing came from GM Choi, or from the daito ryu aiki ju-jutsu system since the whole point of the aiki, or hapki arts is never to go to the ground. Hence the circuler motion, and spinning on your axcess. Also the other pic. of the hand block, and front kick I have also never seen in Hapkiyoosool, or the daito ryu system. I don't know if this is some form of your art that your trying to promote, or maybe some form of sin moo Hapkido from GM Ji, but it is definatly not the art tought by GM Choi, or the aiki ju-jutsu system. Thank you for your time.

[ushankido]

The reason I posted the article was it made for a good read. It was published in Black Belt in 1965 I believe.

moksha<<I don't know if this is some form of your art that your trying to promote>>

No, I don't study hapkiyoosool nor yawara. I study hankido and hankumdo, an art that was developed by the late Grandmaster Myung Jae Nam, who was a early student of GM Ji Han Jae and who's patch is on your schools website.

Have you ever heard of the late Grandmaster Michael J. Wollmershauser. He was a direct student of GM Choi. You might be interested in his website.

http://www.ahahapkido.com

Also, you might be interested in the family tree posted there.

[moksha]

ushankido,

Tes I know who GM myong Ja-Nam is. The reason we use his patch is because he was good friends with our GM Jang Young-Shil. GM Jang uses this patch out of respect for him. All I was saying was that the information in that article was wrong, and any one who knows the history of Hapkido would agree. I will end this reply by saying that I'm tired of argueing with others on this forum that want to put false information on these discussions. So from now on I will not post any replies until someone actually has something worth while to discuss.:mad:

[ushankido]

So, what do you think about the late Grandmaster Michael J. Wollmershauser and his website?

He was a student of the GM Choi and operated a school here in the US. Wouldn't his style of hapkido be close to what you study?

[moksha]

ushankido,

I have decided to answer your post:D I have heard of Master Wollmershauser, but I have never seen any of his training to compare it to ours. As far as the family tree go's it is my understanding that no one especially a non korean was ever granted a rank above 7th dan from GM Choi. The only way to acheive a 10th dan is to be a founder of your own art, which I guess he did with the american hapkido. our GM, Jang Young-Shil started training under GM Choi in 1949 he received his 7th dan in 1978 from GM Choi. In 1986 GM Choi died so, GM Jang had to promote himself. Then after he registerd his IHF federation with the korean goverment he became a 10th dan. So because of this Master Wollmershauser's actual last certification was probably 7th dan. But again just by the name of his federation his style is probably not like ours. Thank you for your time.

[moksha]

sorry,

To fix my last post GM Jang is a 9th dan not 10th I messed up. he can't be a 10th dan because he caries on the teachings of GM Choi, he has not founde his own art. Thank you.

[Chris Crawford]

I viewed the website, and the video/article you mentioned earlier. They are both very informative. It would seem that GM Mike did much through his life to promote HKD to everyone he met. Those who have committed themselves to an art form wholly and did all that was possible to help it grow deserve the utmost respect. So here's to GM Mike and may all of his students continue to grow and multiply.

Humility Before Honor. HKD 4 Life

[ushankido]

moksha

What is the name of GM Jang federation in Korean?

Does GM Jang certify his students with an hapkido organization or on his own?

Have you ever heard G.M. Kim Yun Sang?

http://www.hapkiyusul.com

[Hapkiyoosool]

First of all, let me throw some water on the fire.


Chris viewed the GM Wollmershauser site and said,
<<I viewed the website, and the video/article you mentioned earlier. They are both very informative. It would seem that GM Mike did much through his life to promote HKD to everyone he met. Those who have committed themselves to an art form wholly and did all that was possible to help it grow deserve the utmost respect. So here's to GM Mike and may all of his students continue to grow and multiply. >>
HERE! HERE! :)

To ushankido (who seems to like discrediting us for some reason), I am known to your Jino Kang. I have told him you said hello and invited him to this thread. Actually to BudoSeek in whole. He is your instructor, right? I will handle my students for their vigorous defense of our Federation. I appreciate them, we all can get hot under the collar at times. I apologize to you all.

GM Jang listed his federation as "International Hapkido Federation" in Korea during the 1960's and certifies us under that name. From what I understand, we are still listed as "Han Guk Hapkisool Hoi" also. He certifies under Korean guidlines. The Korean Government investigates false teachers and prosecuits them. Schools in Korea are inspected 4 times yearly visualy, and paperwise yearly.
We use the OLD IHF patch for two reasons. One is he was a friend to GM Jang and to my knowledge, GM Myung uses that patch no longer, he is(was, God rest his soul) HanKiDo, HanKumDo, etc.
I have heard of Kim Yun-Sang. Never practiced with him. Someday maybe.

I would like to say this lastly.

From any video that I have see from GM Choi or any writings or pictures, they are exactly what I was taught and what I teach. As to compare us to this and that person is really aggrivating.

If you wish to compare technique, come train with us and then train with them. If you have never felt someone's technique, there is no way you can discredit them unless their technique so obviously incorrect by sight that you just say nothing and take a drink of water. I said something derogitory about someone once infront of GM Jang. I never did it again. If he saw wrong technique he would shake his head ever so slightly and say, "Not like that" and moved on. If it was in a seminar of another school in the park or in public, he would take us to get something to eat so we would not dwell on it. He would usually only travel with his instructors. Never just "hung out" with anyone under 4 Dan. I NEVER heard his discredit anyone, EVER. We all have ego. Some of the great masters were just good at hiding it.

GM Jang simply used to say this when asked to prove his worth, "step on the mat." He is a man of few words and great pain. It would feel like my arm was tearing off sometimes. He never hurt me though, perfect control. Oh don't get me wrong, I was sore, but not injured so I could not train. I have seen few challengers in Korea come to our school that walked or crawled our rather. They usually left after they had a very short bout with an assitant instructor before GM Jang ever touched them. "If the assistant instructor is that good, I bow in respect to you GM Jang." That was the usual response. I remember one time a man came to challenge GM Jang by attacking him in the midlle of class, GM Jang simply slapped him right out the door and then invited him back in. The man ran away.

There IS a kick deployed during the video in this link of GM Choi, I saw this too in Korea from GM Jang. It was to show you what NOT to do. You will notice that GM Choi shows the kick and yet does not apply it. He takes the person to the ground by hand. I don't know who the narrator is but, they say"Who says ther are no kicks in Hapkido!". Feet are made to support your body. Just like a building structure. There are kicks practiced kicks in Hapkido, NEVER used in the techniques though. You must know your enemies attacks as well as your own. Know self, know enemy. I was told NEVER kick during a technique. There is no time for it when anyway someone is pushing you or squeezing your neck while pushing you or whatever else. Push the pressure points in the ankle with my heel yes, but not a kick. YOU may kick in your techniques, more power to you. As for me and mine, we do not. END of that.
Look at this link and see what I am talking about.
http://jungkikwan.com/index1.htm

I hope we can all get along. Hapkido and the differnces to Aikido can be found on the history page of our website.

http://www.hapkiyoosool.com/

Humility before Honor.......I aplogize for any of my students and their innocent intent to defend me and our school. They are dedicated! :D
Thank You guys. Let's play nice. :p

[ushankido]

Hapkiyoosool:<< I am known to your Jino Kang. I have told him you said hello and invited him to this thread. Actually to BudoSeek in whole. He is your instructor, right?>>

No, Kang Jino is not my instructor nor have I ever met him. My master is lives in Korea.

It was never my intention to discredit you or your organization but to compare your style with other hapkiyoosool style's here in the US and Korea.

One of your students made the following comment about your school being the most traditional school in the US:

moksha:<< If noone believes myself or Master Allen that are school is probably the most traditional school in the U.S then come by and see for your self don't talk, or argue about it.or if your brave you can go to korea to are HQ, and let GM Jang show you.>>

It was my intention to inform your student that there are other traditional hapkiyoosool schools in the US, ex: late Grandmaster Michael J. Wollmershauser:

http://www.ahahapkido.com

Lastly, we still use that patch on our uniforms.

Don't take things the wrong way. This is a discussion forum.

[Hapkiyoosool]

Please let me know who your instructor is and where you train. If you live in Korea, I will visit you and your school. I would love to see how you do things.

I am always interested in what people do. If you live in L.A., where do you train? I can come visit you there too when I am in LA doing a seminar.

I would like to see how you differ from us. It would be interesting.

I appreciate your reply.

[ushankido]

I live in Los Angeles and operate my own school.

Sure, feel free to visit.

[kodanjaclay]

Master Allen,

I think we can all get a little zealous when defending our dojang/master. No harm done. I appreciate your speaking with them about the need to get along, even when we disagree.

Sincerely,

[moksha]

ushankido,

Please allow me to appologise about the quote that I made on my last post. I did not mean for it to come off as me being egotistical, all I was trying to say is that Hapkido has gotten a bad rap because of certain ppl, and schools that teach bad technique, and take ppl's money and pass it off as hapkido. I'm not saying that I am a master or even close to being one, but I have trained at other schools under different federations, and I can say that these problems do exist. I have studied in different states in the U.S, particularly ones under the kha, and have attended seminars by Master West. No disrespect intended but after studying this type of Hapkido before joining the one I am in now, all I have to say is that (I see the truth). I am just really passionate about this art, and would like to see it grow by teaching it the right way, and not taking advantage of the american public. It is well known that most americans are not that educated on the martial arts, and lots of schools and federations know this, so ofcourse the want to get rich, to them it's a business. Thank you for letting me take the time to write this reply.:D

[kodanjaclay]

Michael,

It takes a very big man to admit his mistakes, and is oftentimes the hardest challenge we face as Hapkidoin. While I cannot say that I am perfect, I try daily to perfect myself throught the martial way. Your words now, are a credit to your Sabum and his teachings. In the end, this is truly what we should be after, self perfection like the great masters, rather than money like certain others.

Thank you for your apology.

[Hapkiyoosool]

I love my students!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:karate:

I recently showed my students some old 8mm film of Choi Young-Sool.
They said, "Hey! Those are the same techniques we do!"

DUH!:rolleyes:

Hee hee.

[kodanjaclay]

LOL...So you mean you did not make all these techniques up? hehe.

[Hapkiyoosool]

If I were the creator of these techniques, I would be proud.

Fortunately, they were battle tested before I got them. :bandit:

I hope all can make it to our seminar in November. All the info is on our NEWS page of the website.

[roninja]

american police are taught aikido, jiu-jutsu, bjj. and possibly krav maga. martial arts are very relevant in the defense departments of the world.


joseph Dunkin

[Hapkiyoosool]

Hapkido is Aikido's ugly cousin. Besides, who joins the military(martial) to find a spiritual path. Although I do hear the name of God allot in combat! LOL!

Martial way is break things and kill people but in a different way. But, Like Master Clay said, "Martial Art is something more than pure violence. Martial Art seeks to end violence." The only way to stop a bully is to stand up to him, maybe you have to hurt him, maybe you don't. It is up to them, do they attack or not.

I love Hapkido! ^_^

[sidekick]

"american police are taught aikido, jiu-jutsu, bjj. and possibly krav maga. martial arts are very relevant in the defense departments of the world".

joseph Dunkin


I like to give the benefit of the doubt on that statement, but I know better. Now mabey defense departments of the world may have some extra training for special groups but overall it's just basic training for the majority of folks. As for police departments, they are taught minimum tactics and techniques in their academies. There may be the lone venue were some special come-alongs are taught, but for the most part it's just not done. The people that write and make the laws, also govern the training aspects of law enforcement. They just don't take to open handed combat being high on the agenda. Just watch the "cops" shows and it will be very evident that most cops are poorly trained in hand to hand.

Mike Dunn

[Michael Tomlinson]

Mike thanks for giving us the truth and breaking the bubble that ALL LEO's are trained like Rambo..... the world of Civil Court should not be forgotten...
Michael Tomlinson :)

[ushankido]

The techniques I learned in the academy were pretty basic, although, one does have the chance to learn from department paid courses.

Most patrol officers have a very limited exposure to defensive tactics and techniques. Some folks just join a local martial art school to learn new stuff, while others like to spend their time the gym.

My TAC instructors were pretty good though. Most of them had a military background.