What is the best Judo takedown

[johenora]

Can any Judoka advize me of the best Judo takedown. Is the use of the Gi imperative in this takedown. Some say it is Yama Arashi provided it is done IAW the IJF rules.

[jabonn]

Yama Arashi is 'Mountain Storm' I throw this throw in competition. It is similar to Harai-goshi in the sweeping action with leg and loin leverage, however the hand placement is on the sleeve and not on the collar or the back.

This move I would not consider a take down but a throw. If you are looking for a take down you may want to search on the net for 'pick-ups'. If I want to take some one down I usually go with two quick moves Ko-soto-gari with an ankle pick or the 'Jimmy Pedro' a pull down O-uchi-gari.

[Jeff Burger]

By takedown Im assuming you mean throws too.

Id suggest learning foot sweep (deashi barai) and the 4 leg entanglements first (O Soto Gari, Ko soto gari, O Uchi Gari, Ko Uchi Gari).

For me I like throws like Harai Goshi type throws (Im not too concerned where my hands are...but I like that leg sweeping pelvis or below...CMA Look at Moon Kick).

Be aware alot of the single + double leg take downs taught in class are on matts. I like them in class but I dont think I want to slam my knee into pavement.

Jeff

[johenora]

Dear Jabonn Flurry:
Thanks for your rapid response and your erudite input in re: Judo Takedowns/throws. Lots of food for thought and usage in Shiais.
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Originally posted by jabonn
Yama Arashi is 'Mountain Storm' I throw this throw in competition. It is similar to Harai-goshi in the sweeping action with leg and loin leverage, however the hand placement is on the sleeve and not on the collar or the back.

This move I would not consider a take down but a throw. If you are looking for a take down you may want to search on the net for 'pick-ups'. If I want to take some one down I usually go with two quick moves Ko-soto-gari with an ankle pick or the 'Jimmy Pedro' a pull down O-uchi-gari.
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As to your two quick major/minor moves, how close do you get to do these --very close or only bent elbow maiai? Or do you let him come in close at the grab? Is it Jimmy Pedro's book or tapes that explain how to do this combination in detail?

[Webmaster]

My personal favorite technique would be either tai otoshi or a left side seoi nage. I prefer the left side seoi nage, but done from a right-side grip. You can really wrap up their left arm tightly and you can even abreviate the tai sabaki a bit. Very fast and very effective.

[jabonn]

Robert, I like the left side Seoi with the right hand grip as well. I perfer the drop version over the standing when performed with this grip variation. Very powerful take down.

If I don't get the Seoi, I move in with a lapel side Sasae-tsuri-komi.

[Abbax8]

Originally posted by johenora
Can any Judoka advize me of the best Judo takedown. Is the use of the Gi imperative in this takedown. Some say it is Yama Arashi provided it is done IAW the IJF rules.

The Best takedown is the one that works for you. There are 65 major throws in judo. Most have multiple ways to enter for the throw. Some work best with gi, others can be done almost as easily without a gi. I would suggest you concentrate on any of the throws in the first 3 sets. Pick one or two that appeal to you. Suggestions for no gi needed- advanced foot sweep (De-Ashi-Harai), major outside reaping (O-Soto-Gari), and one arm back carry throw (Ippon-Seoi-Nage). Throws that work better with a gi could be Body Drop (Tai-Otoshi), Sweeping Hip (Harai-Goshi) or Inner Thigh (Uchi-Mata). It comes done to personal preference.

Peace
Dennis

[jabonn]

The Judo 'Master Class' Series of books are an execellent source of information. They are broken down into sub-catagories e.g. pick ups, ne-waza, tachi-waza...etc. So if you only want information about take 'pick ups' then purchase the book named 'Pick Ups'.

Use the Amazon link to the left here and search for Judo Master Class.

[lonewolf12563]

I like Tai-Otoshi and it's many variations. Ed

[Jeff Burger]

Its one of my favs.


Jeff

[Lee82mark4]

http://hkjudo.com/osaka_003.wmv


This is the perfect takedown.

Some refer to it as "flying Jujigatame."


Mark

(Windows Media Player required)

[jabonn]

Hey Mark thanks for the Vid.

In tournament play when and how does the flying armbar become legal? I watched some video from the AmCans in 2001 and a judo-ka performed the technique and it was allowed, however the flying armbar in the rule book is deemed illegal.

[Cliff Hargrave]

It's apparently legal since David Camarillo has done several times in National and International competitions. The rule says that you cant put the pressure on the joint until you hit the ground so I guess it's really subjective to the ref.

[Posiview]

A guy came to our ju jitsu club some time ago and we were practicing Tai-Otoshi. The variations we usually do are:

1) left inside block to roundhouse punch, right arm under ukes left arm pit and throw
2) left inside block and palm heal to chest and throw
3) left inside block and grab the gi mid-chest and throw

What he showed us was a double inside block (to a right roundhouse punch) grab gi at ukes right bicep with right hand and throw. I tried out a few time and found it to be a very good variation to what I'd been using.

[johenora]

Originally posted by Cliff Hargrave
It's apparently legal since David Camarillo has done several times in National and International competitions. The rule says that you cant put the pressure on the joint until you hit the ground so I guess it's really subjective to the ref.
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Cliff this sounds great.
Is this WAZA a Waki Gatame done how?
Is David Camarillo on VHS depicted doing the "Flying Arm Bar"

[johenora]

To:Cliff Hargrave and Mark:
I am getting a clearer idea as to the waza. It might be UDE GAESHI--the so-called arm reversal.
We were advised as you said it is legal if applied pursuat to your appraisal.
It could be referred to as a "flying jujigatame".
The Osaka 2003 game fotos show it most clearly. It is also a Daito Ryu Waza and a Kosen JiuJits Waza.
I do not know if it is in the Kodokan Curriculum. Do you know if it is included?
It is the last technique on Bill Nauta's gray chart of 1990 --U.S.Judo Assn, Inc.
It surely is a great takedown for Judo and JiuJits.
Cordially

[Cliff Hargrave]

For everone's viewing pleasure:

http://www.onthemat.com/Images/hck/hck_camarillo_sm.mov

This is David (white gi) and Daniel Camarillo (blue gi) putting on a demo at a BJJ tournament. They have both been actively competing in Judo for over 20 years and are Judo black belt. David was an Olympic qualifier or alternate but didn't make the final team. David is now a BJJ black belt under Ralph Gracie and Daniel is a BJJ brown belt. David hits a flying armbar at the start of the demo. It's a big file so dialup connections may have a problem.

[lonewolf12563]

Nice video. Great example of fluidity! Ed

[johenora]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cliff Hargrave
[B]For everone's viewing pleasure:

http://www.onthemat.com/Images/hck/hck_camarillo_sm.mov
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I do not know if it is my connections but I have a problem in that I am unable to download it. Wish you could give me an idea as to what is the problem. I sure would like to view this site.

[Cliff Hargrave]

You might need to download the latest quicktime viewer:

http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/

[Cliff Hargrave]

Another video

http://www.onthemat.com/Images/davecolumn/video/DATMCommercial_sm.mov

[Lee82mark4]

Originally posted by johenora

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Cliff this sounds great.
Is this WAZA a Waki Gatame done how?
Is David Camarillo on VHS depicted doing the "Flying Arm Bar"


You can't put pressure on the joint until you hit the ground anyway, not with juji-gatame. Standing arm locks are allowed, but you cannot drag someone on to the mat, it must be a recognized technique.

The Flying arm bar usually refers to waki-gatame, but the same rule applies. If uke is forced to the ground because the elbow lock is being applied or tori's weight just takes him down while holding the arm in the grip (for waki-gatame), it is legal.

In both, it is a judgement call as to whether it is allowed. In the jujigatame I posted, the shinban is seen checking to make sure the waza is being applied and then it is locked by hitting or using the ground to cinch it.

I would probably err on not allowing it if there is any question, but that is me. I need to see it applied first, but that clip is one of the best clips on that particular move I've ever seen (at least as to quality and effectiveness, it is). There is no question, even if tori hits the ground first, the lock was cinched after hitting the ground (but not by much). If there is ever any question but it appears to be like that one, there isn't any question.;)


Mark

[Lee82mark4]

Originally posted by jabonn
Hey Mark thanks for the Vid.

In tournament play when and how does the flying armbar become legal? I watched some video from the AmCans in 2001 and a judo-ka performed the technique and it was allowed, however the flying armbar in the rule book is deemed illegal.

Generally, the flying waki-gatame is what is referred to as being illegal, but it can be legal also, by the same rules which say that the standing jujigatame is legal.

The Kodokan web site explains their version and when it is allowed, so check there (It has been a while since I looked, though).

Wakigatame is a different animal and can be dangerous, but it can also be done within the rules. The same rules apply, but waki is even more of a subjective call than is juji. If one applies it while uke is standing, and by their weight it takes uke off his feet, cinching it when hitting the ground, it is legal.

I am not comfortable at all in allowing it (flying waki), but I've done both, waved it off, and allowed it to continue. Neither really fit the description of "flying" it is better described as a standing arm lock taken to the ground by a recognized waza. It becomes "flying" when tori leaves his feet to apply it, uke falling due to the weight of tori on the arm. You just can't grab the arm and take off in flight coming down on the joint. That IS illegal. Judgement call all the way, though.


Mark

PS: There was near unanimous agreement that the "flying" juji is legal on that other web site's judo forum. That's from where I "stole" the link, but it is such a nice shot of it, I thought it should be shared.

[Jack Stay]

Can any Judoka advize me of the best Judo takedown. Is the use of the Gi imperative in this takedown. Some say it is Yama Arashi provided it is done IAW the IJF rules.

Judo doesn't really use take downs, at least not for the full point (ippon).

You must throw your opponent, using the three parts of a Judo throw: 1. balance 2. entry 3. execution, for the full point. That is what makes the difference between a 'throw' and a 'take down' in Judo. Take-downs are not worth anything in Judo.

In my competition days, the take down (no point awarded) was simply a way of entering mat work.

The Americans in the 1968 Olympics introduced the non-Judo technique of the single leg dive, and caused just as much controversy with it as the Soviet players did by introducing SAMBO techniques to an Olympic Judo match.

If you're a very good mat work (ne-waza) player, and feel you can best beat your opponent more easily with a pin, arm-bar, or a choke, then Judo has various take downs in which to enter the matwork technique. I used wrestling moves such as the ankle pick up and single leg dive, plus the Judo's 'dive out' method of entering mat work. I did this several times in a row to take first place at one of my tournaments. So I beat ten guys without once throwing them and got first place.


By 'Dive out' I mean in tournament, you allow yourself to be thrown, and then execute a controlled spin to land on your belly which neutralizes the point, then suck the guy into a newaza technique. I loved it!

[Runar Bjaaland]

I recall from early competition days in the seventies that a controversial form of drop Seoi nage was used as a takedown.
It was a technique characterised by tori jumping low at uki's toes but using an inverted spin - i.e. left seoi nage but dropping with right shoulder.
One could be lucky and roll your opponent clean over but mainly used to drag ukis pinned shoulder down to the mat where osaekomi waza ensued.

It was really unpopular by many who challenged the techniques legality - there was however little discussion about its effectiveness.

To this day I have wondered why this techniques isnt used more often - predictability??

Any observers of this technique today with knowledge of its whereabouts??

Cheers
Runar Bjaaland

[Jack Stay]

Another video

http://www.onthemat.com/Images/davecolumn/video/DATMCommercial_sm.mov

Interesting video clip. Drag-overs, knock-downs, and trips. One attempt at a decent tomoe-nage. An emphasis on newaza over nagewaza. No attempts at shimewaza. Lots of brute strength with very little kazushi. Looks like the S.A.M.B.O. style of former Soviet Judo.
_____________
John 'Jack' Stay

[Erik]

Ah, Dave Camarillo! One of the greats!

Neat guy and an excellent teacher, too. He runs a great BJJ/Judo program at AKA in San Jose, CA. If you're nearby, his is well worth checking out.

[Jack Stay]

Ah, Dave Camarillo! One of the greats!

Neat guy and an excellent teacher, too. He runs a great BJJ/Judo program at AKA in San Jose, CA. If you're nearby, his is well worth checking out.

Was Dave Camarillo an Olympic Judo player?

__________
John 'Jack' Stay

[Erik]

I think (I am not sure) that he chose not to go to trials this year. This may be because he did not have enough competition points from this past period (don't know how long) which would have qualified him for trials in San Jose. I think he was focusing on BJJ instead, starting up his schools, and so on.

But I should not gossip when I am not sure.

I would have loved seeing him in the Olympics. I respect the guy tremendously.

And I don't think he ever went to the Olympics, though I wish he had.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Was Dave Camarillo an Olympic Judo player?

__________
John 'Jack' Stay


He was one of the alternates for the 2000 Olympics.

His brother Daniel is a bada$$$ too.

http://home.bak.rr.com/armhunter/