View Full Version : Combat TKD
ninjandrew
10-08-2003, 10:58
Hey, just wondering if anything like combat TKD exists. Im interested in learning a kicking art, but Im less of a traditionalist and more of a combat guy. Not neccessarily TKD, but is their any kind of combat art focused on kicking??
Kumsul Player
10-08-2003, 11:14
Originally posted by ninjandrew
Hey, just wondering if anything like combat TKD exists. Im interested in learning a kicking art, but Im less of a traditionalist and more of a combat guy. Not neccessarily TKD, but is their any kind of combat art focused on kicking??
Go learn Muy Thai
ninjandrew
10-08-2003, 11:19
Ok, sorry, I meant other than Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Savate. Something alot like TKD with its dynamic kicks. But thank you.
And if anyone should know, whats the dif. between kickboxing and savate?
KoshoBob
10-08-2003, 11:57
No. Dynamic kicks don't work in combat
Kumsul Player
10-08-2003, 14:09
Originally posted by KoshoBob
No. Dynamic kicks don't work in combat
Hey Bob, are you under Hanshi Bruce Jucnnik?
Ok, sorry, I meant other than Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Savate
You can try Too Ki. TKD sparring is meant for TKD sport, I wouldn't try that in say a UFC enviornment.
ninjandrew
10-08-2003, 18:47
"Dynamic kicks wont work in combat." True enough, Ill have to apply it myself. I can make them work, the unlikelyness of the use of dynamic kicks in a combat situation makes it likely for them to work if used and applied properly. Im not bad at kicks, just the dynamic part. And I wouldn't mind having some flashy artillery for showing off with friends and for finishing moves.
What is this Too Ki you speak of?? Any suggested links?
Thanks again...
kodanjaclay
10-08-2003, 19:43
Jeremy,
Did you mean kyuk too ki? If not, what is too ki?
Kumsul Player
10-08-2003, 22:32
Originally posted by kodanjaclay
Jeremy,
Did you mean kyuk too ki? If not, what is too ki?
Yes I did mean Kyuk Too Ki, sorry about that. Not enough coffee prior to posting.
http://www.concentric.net/~sdseong/kmar.vid.ktk.htm
This is a brief article on it. There is some more information and some videos out there on the subject.
Hardcore Fighter
10-09-2003, 06:54
There is combat taekwondo I have seen it advertized in magazines. I dont know if it is legitamet though. It could be a fruad.
Dynamic kicks do too work in combat. I have seen those types of kicks used in UFC tournaments. Or King Of The Cage.
I saw a karate guy going crazy with round kicks and a jump side kick. He even nailed this guy with an axe kick. Totally awsome.
A lot of guys do powerful roundhouses to the head and knock guys out. So dynamic kicks do too work in combat.
KoshoBob
10-09-2003, 07:12
Originally posted by Kumsul Player
Hey Bob, are you under Hanshi Bruce Jucnnik?
Yep, for about 6 years now. Other stuff before that including TKD.
Kumsul Player
10-09-2003, 10:42
Originally posted by KoshoBob
Yep, for about 6 years now. Other stuff before that including TKD.
That is great. I would say hope to see you at the Gathering this year, but unfortunately I have a tournament that I have to be in. I have been studying Kempo, first under Sensei David Champ and then under Sensei Jon Ludwig (whenver I get a chance to see him). I have attended many of Hanshi's seminar. Love to see the old man move. :) If you see him next weekend at the Gathering tell him the Chicago Jim Carrey says hello.
Thanks Andrew. I have to say that I have used "Dynamic" kicks in combat. I have been bouncing at bars, teaching combat and control tactics to security and police personel, and just plain accidentally getting in street fights for years and I have used the kicks taught in TKD. I have been studying TKD since 1983 under 2 instructors and have been taught how to use the kicks effectively. Drew nailed it on the head saying, "if used and applied properly." That would be the key wouldn't it. I can teach you and others a million techniques that work on the street but if you don't use them the right way, they stink.
ninjandrew
11-15-2003, 11:02
Sweet, sounds good to me. But how would you teach me?? Im in Edmonton for the next 4 months, and then Im moving to Japan for 5 years. I plan on studying in Korea for a while to, maybe theres a combat oriented TKD school there. What is your opinion on kyuk too ki Wil? How can I learn what you have learned? Did you simply have awesome instructors, or did you combat apply it on your own? I wish it was as easy as simply traveling to Maryland for instruction.
KoshoBob
11-15-2003, 15:55
If you will be living in Japan, you will be able to find an art that you like. Check out Koryu.com for more info on lots of Japanese arts.
ninjandrew
11-15-2003, 18:50
Yeah koryu.com is great, Ive already got Japan planned out though. Boxing at some club I haven't decided on yet, Takada Dojo for jujutsu and wrestling, and Shindo Muso Ryu Jojutsu are what I am currently planning to take. Whenever I get to Korea, Id like to take something like kyuk too ki or combat oriented TKD, and sharpen up my other skills with regular practice. Probably focus on some knife fighting. Im only leaving out Muay Thai cause my knees and elbows come pretty naturally.
nickjman
11-12-2004, 23:15
Well, to answer the question, Tae Kwon Do, unlike some MAs is one art that is more likely to fit what you are seeking if you find a school that IS more based in tradition. Many of the TKD schools teach the Olympic sparring styles and nothing else, turning it into nothing less than a sport (a fun sport, but still a sport). Effective technique in TKD is definitely possible, even with those "dynamic" kicks, but it takes a lot of work. Find an instructor that knows and is willing to teach you the details and theory behind the techniques.
Nick
By the way, for those that say TKD kicks don't work, I've been kicked across a room by my instructor's sidekick on a regular basis for years even though he holds back on me (although it has been happening less as I've gotten better), and I'm 6'1" and 190 lbs.
Firstly, to anyone saying that (dynamic? i don't know why everyone's so stuck on that word...last timei checked any strike is dynamic i.e "moving") kicks don't work in combat...I would suggest you watch some clips of mirko "cro cop" or that muay thai guy whose name i can't pronounce or spell..Buakaw Por Poramuk or w/e it is..he won the k-1 world max a few months back...they're both unreal.
And as far as a combat art with dynamic kicks aside from aformentioned muay thai and such it sounds like you'dbe better off to cross train. Or perhaps the best i can think of would be Hapkido(another korean art)...as far as I know, it's a self defense oriented art that contains some of tkd's most devastating kicks with many joint locks and tons of other kool dirty tricks. I don't have any first hand experience with it though myself. Ask around and I'm sure you'll find someone on this board who can verify this and go more in depth.
dear john
11-18-2004, 11:11
Qoute Hardcore Fighter
"A lot of guys do powerful roundhouses to the head and knock guys out. So dynamic kicks do too work in combat."
i assume by dynamic you mean that it is flashy and hard.
How exactly is a roundhouse flashy or hard?
for me they are one of the more simplier kicks
...How exactly is a roundhouse flashy or hard?
for me they are one of the more simplier kicks You are correct. It is basically the bread and butter stuff.
Well if I think his point was there are plenty of kicks that work fine despite common opposition. If you want to use a jumping spinning 540degree turning(aka roundhouse) kick...go for it...whatever makes you happy. It's not the brightest idea but it could be done if you first softened your opponent up with leg kicks and what not perhaps. If it was me tho I'm looking for roundhouses and sidekicks (and maybe hook kicks once I master that one, i'm getting better all the time with it). In most situations tho i find myself thinking I'd ratehr rely onmy groundfighting skills just because it's a little more 'goof-proofed.' The main reason for that being that it rains a lot where I live so the gond is usually wet and it's easy enough to wind up on your *** when treying high flashy jumping kicks as it is. That being said tho however, a roundhouse tot he head is probably the highest percentage technique for a one hit knockout. So the best thing to do is evaluate it: what are the risk/what are the benefits.
DragonMind
11-19-2004, 12:22
a roundhouse tot he head is probably the highest percentage technique for a one hit knockout. So the best thing to do is evaluate it: what are the risk/what are the benefits.
Unfortunately, it is also one of the easiest to counter so I'd rate it as high risk.
Needless to say everything is easy to counter if one can see it coming. If you just throw a roundhouse out, chances are you will just run into a counter. That's why the 'good feint' you previously mentioned is critical.
DragonMind
11-22-2004, 08:09
Needless to say everything is easy to counter if one can see it coming. If you just throw a roundhouse out, chances are you will just run into a counter. That's why the 'good feint' you previously mentioned is critical.
Which also brings together the need to observe the body so you can see the technique before it's launched. A roundhouse is easy to spot because of the weight shift that has to happen in the hips before the kick can even be attempted. When people talk of how fast older masters are, what they are really seeing is that the masters have fine tuned their observation skills and can react sooner, not faster.
Which also brings together the need to observe the body so you can see the technique before it's launched. A roundhouse is easy to spot because of the weight shift that has to happen in the hips before the kick can even be attempted. When people talk of how fast older masters are, what they are really seeing is that the masters have fine tuned their observation skills and can react sooner, not faster. :) That's why you should be in constant motion, dynamically shifting your weight, so as to flood your opponent with false cues. When you do strike, try to do lead leg/hand strike. Well, it's easier said then done.
You are absolutely correct regarding observing minor cues. That is the skill that separates the pros from the amateurs. Nothing matches experience when it comes to learning this skill.
DragonMind
11-23-2004, 08:11
:) That's why you should be in constant motion, dynamically shifting your weight, so as to flood your opponent with false cues. When you do strike, try to do lead leg/hand strike. Well, it's easier said then done.
You are absolutely correct regarding observing minor cues. That is the skill that separates the pros from the amateurs. Nothing matches experience when it comes to learning this skill.
The problem with constant motion is that you lose power trying to throw a technique while on the move. There is a certain amount of stability necessary to deliver maximum power. For people in constant motion, I still watch for critical cues in the hips and shoulders to tell me what they are going to do. Without a movement to stabilize their weight, I generally just slip or parry the weak techniques.
Just a semantic disagreement, but I wouldn't call those cues minor. That implies that they are not as important as some other "major" cue. In fact, weight shifts, hip and shoulder movements are the keys to anticipating your opponent's intent. To paraphrase what Bruce Lee used to say, "I didn't hit you, you drew the fist to you."
You are correct, I should have used the more appropriate term of "less obvious cue" instead of "minor cue".
You can generate maximal strike force by tensing your whole body right at the moment of impact. You can accomplish that while standing on a stable platform or with your whole body launched at your target, on a small hop or a slide. It takes more skills to have your body in motion and tensing your muscles on impact. It needs high ability to alternate repeatedly between tensing and relaxing, in high frequency.
By putting your body mass in motion, you magnify your strike power. A left-jab can be just a annoying tab, but a falling-step left jab is a KO jab.
DragonMind
11-24-2004, 08:22
By putting your body mass in motion, you magnify your strike power. A left-jab can be just a annoying tab, but a falling-step left jab is a KO jab.
But the key is the stability you achieve sinking your weight into the step. Consider how much power a punch would have in the air vs. grounded. When airborne you lose the driving power from the snap of your hips in that punch. Consider Lee's old 3-inch punch; the power came from solid grounding and hip snap. That punch would not have near the power if he were airborne.
Different arts give it different terms, but force ultimately comes from 3 sources: muscular contraction, torque from the hip, and shift of the center of gravity,ie momentum of your bodymass. The more sources you can enlist, the more force you can generate.
Airborne implies vertical jump, which is not the desired technique, unless the objective is to strike at a high target for exhibition purpose. It does not put the momentum behind your forward strike.
The desired technique is horizontal forward slide, so as to employ momentum. Having said that, there is also the spinning kick that employ momentum in circular strike.
What you mentioned in 'hip snap' against solid ground, is the push-off against the ground. It is the same push-off that launch your center of gravity forward, creating the momentum.
If you observe carefully how Bruce Lee performed his 3 inch punch or 1 inch punch, you would see how his center of gravity shifted eventhough his whole body did not leave its original footing.
Glad you approve. But I am not doing any teaching here. Just sharing a little bit of what I know.
DragonMind
11-29-2004, 10:27
Different arts give it different terms, but force ultimately comes from 3 sources: muscular contraction, torque from the hip, and shift of the center of gravity,ie momentum of your bodymass. The more sources you can enlist, the more force you can generate.
Airborne implies vertical jump, which is not the desired technique, unless the objective is to strike at a high target for exhibition purpose. It does not put the momentum behind your forward strike.
The desired technique is horizontal forward slide, so as to employ momentum. Having said that, there is also the spinning kick that employ momentum in circular strike.
What you mentioned in 'hip snap' against solid ground, is the push-off against the ground. It is the same push-off that launch your center of gravity forward, creating the momentum.
If you observe carefully how Bruce Lee performed his 3 inch punch or 1 inch punch, you would see how his center of gravity shifted eventhough his whole body did not leave its original footing.
Since power = mass times acceleration, what you're talking about are things which effect either mass or acceleration. Adding a weapon would effect mass as would changing the size of the striking surface, but since neither of us said anything about that I was taking it to mean a constant mass. Muscle contraction (which is what we really mean by hip snap) effects acceleration. The slide you mention also effects acceleration. Acceleration is increased when there is a solid grounding to launch from but remember that acceleration also decreases as the distance from that grounding (origin) increases. What Bruce understood was that maximum acceleration occurs close in and diminishes as distance increases. His center of gravity didn't shift since he turned around a vertical axis. COG would shift if he raised or lowered himself or extended outward from that axis. Consider this, does a boxer have a higher knockout percentage from a straight jab at full extension or a hooking punch in close (assuming the same target)?
Since power = mass times acceleration, what you're talking about are things which effect either mass or acceleration. Adding a weapon would effect mass as would changing the size of the striking surface, but since neither of us said anything about that I was taking it to mean a constant mass. Muscle contraction (which is what we really mean by hip snap) effects acceleration. The slide you mention also effects acceleration.
First of all, power does not = M*A. Force=M*A. Secondly, weapon is never in the equation. Thirdly, muscle contraction does not always involve acceleration. If I were to choke you, muscle contraction will exert pressure to cut off circulation, but without any acceleration to speak off.
Acceleration is increased when there is a solid grounding to launch from but remember that acceleration also decreases as the distance from that grounding (origin) increases. What Bruce understood was that maximum acceleration occurs close in and diminishes as distance increases.The physics is correct, but the condition under which we operate, renders the decrease in acceleration a moot point. The distance between the fighters is not large enough to have material decrease in acceleration or velocity. Unless of course that you really absolutely suck at what you are doing. lol
His center of gravity didn't shift since he turned around a vertical axis. COG would shift if he raised or lowered himself or extended outward from that axis. Consider this, does a boxer have a higher knockout percentage from a straight jab at full extension or a hooking punch in close (assuming the same target)?Your center of gravity would shift if you simply shift your weight from one leg to another. Raising and lowering the COG is called the Sine Wave in ITF. That is only one form of shift in COG or putting the mass behind your strike, which in that case, has to be a downward strike, or at least a slanted downward strike.
Question: Should you turn around a center axis?
As to whether which has a higher % of KO, straight jab at full extension or a hooking punch in close, :), well....
1. Never punch at full extension. You never want to lock out at impact.
2. Regarding KO %, that totally depends on whether you do the strikes accurately in terms of total summation of force. Either punch will KO the target, if you are successful in carry out total summation of force and prevent force leakage. :) Therein, lies the SCIENTIFIC TECHNIQUES that can successfully bring about the total summation of force and the prevention of force leakage. We need to understand that these techniques are not new discovery. These are known martial art techniques. It is just that they were never systematically researched, analyzed, refined and sysnthesized.
DragonMind
12-02-2004, 08:34
First of all, power does not = M*A. Force=M*A. Secondly, weapon is never in the equation. Thirdly, muscle contraction does not always involve acceleration. If I were to choke you, muscle contraction will exert pressure to cut off circulation, but without any acceleration to speak off.
You are correct, I was thinking force and typed power. Power = Force times velocity.
I never said that muscle contraction ALWAYS means acceleration, but in the case of a launched strike it does.
The physics is correct, but the condition under which we operate, renders the decrease in acceleration a moot point. The distance between the fighters is not large enough to have material decrease in acceleration or velocity. Unless of course that you really absolutely suck at what you are doing. lol
And we've certainly seen enough examples of that... :laugh:
Your center of gravity would shift if you simply shift your weight from one leg to another. Raising and lowering the COG is called the Sine Wave in ITF. That is only one form of shift in COG or putting the mass behind your strike, which in that case, has to be a downward strike, or at least a slanted downward strike.
Agreed, provided the weight is unbalanced between the legs. Rotating in the horizontal plane would not necessarily cause a shift in COG.
Question: Should you turn around a center axis?
I'm not certain what you're after here. Wing Tsun and Aikido practioners I know would say absolutely yes. That is one of the key elements of being "centered".
As to whether which has a higher % of KO, straight jab at full extension or a hooking punch in close, :), well....
1. Never punch at full extension. You never want to lock out at impact.
2. Regarding KO %, that totally depends on whether you do the strikes accurately in terms of total summation of force. Either punch will KO the target, if you are successful in carry out total summation of force and prevent force leakage. :) Therein, lies the SCIENTIFIC TECHNIQUES that can successfully bring about the total summation of force and the prevention of force leakage. We need to understand that these techniques are not new discovery. These are known martial art techniques. It is just that they were never systematically researched, analyzed, refined and sysnthesized.
#1 Agreed, but the point was that extension is greater distance traveled from the body than a hook.
#2 Point being, are the total summations of force equal for both strikes? I would contend that they are not, though I have no experimental data to back that up.
"...#2 Point being, are the total summations of force equal for both strikes? I would contend that they are not, though I have no experimental data to back that up...."
Me neither. But intuitively, one tends to agree with you on this.
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