View Full Version : Where did martial arts originated from?
MartialWarrior
10-15-2003, 17:40
Where did the Asian martial arts originated from?
Where did the Non-Asian martial arts originated from?
Did the martial artial arts start from China and spreaded through Asia?
Is kungfu the father of all martial arts? OR
Is pankration the father of all martial arts?
Is it true that the Martial arts first originated in ancient Greece (pankration), and then spreaded to India > China > Okinawa > Korea > Japan > Indonesia etc.. ?
What do the historians say about ? Any proofs ?
Any convinced answers would be appricieted!
Thanks..
Like the pyramids, martial arts were brought to us from extraterrestrial visitors from a planet orbiting around the star Sirius.
Just kidding! A little humor! ;)
I learned that the Indian Monks came threw Asia and taught self defense and meditation to the Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans. During this time the Mongolian Pirates were terroising Japan and Korea. So i guess the Indian Monks wanted to help the Japense and Koreans. I seriously doubt this accurate but that's what I was told.:(
Martial Arts came from people fighting.
The guys who were good at killing taught other people how to be good at killing, and then some genius thought it might be a good idea to open a school and teach ALOT of people how to be good at killing.
or maybe its...
The guys who didnt die taught other people how to not die, and then some genius thought it might be a good idea to open a school and teach ALOT of people how to not die.
Either way - somebody knew something someone esle didnt, and he taught it to someone, who taught it to someone and so on... and somewhere down the line somebody had figured out enough ways to kill/not die and had taught enough people how to do it that it became a "standard" way of doing things.
It happend around the world as needed.
Jay Bell
10-16-2003, 01:04
Excellent post, J
Hardcore Fighter
10-16-2003, 07:06
haha that was great Sgathak!
What the heck is pankration?
I heard indians came to china to teach meditation and religious type stuff and then chinese used the exsersizes for keeping the body healthy and then they develeoped martial arts out of them. and then all the other asian countries used these techniques and made their own martial arts and so on.
But basically martial arts all came from everywhere because people have been fighting since Cain killed Abel. So technically martial arts came from somewhere near the middle east or wherever people were when God kicked them out of the Garden Of Eden.
What the heck is pankration
It is/was a greek system, the word means "all powers" as it made use of all natural weapons - hands, feet, hips, teeth, whatever. It was used in the Greek Olympic Games and people regularly died. You can actually read an account of its use in Homers The Oddessy - Odysseus uses it in a hand to hand bout while trying to reclaim his wife Penelope - its at the end of the story, but you should read the whole thing.
Modern Day Pankration is NOT a direct decendent of old Greek Pankration, but it does share a common philosophy and alot of its grappling skills are derived from Greco-Roman wrestling, which is arguably the closest thing to original pankration still around.
All civilizations had some form of rudementary form of fighting. Some of those civilizations made greater advancements by forming better techinques and then creating systems or unique styles.
Hardcore Fighter
10-16-2003, 09:39
Panktration sounded like some kind of perverted thing hahaha.
Anyway that is cool. Why is there no real pankration left? How can it just dissapear?
Also when did people start naming fighting as an art with special names?
It seems that all anyone really has to say is "I know how to fight." instead of saying "I know jeet kun do."
Originally posted by Hardcore Fighter
. Anyway that is cool. Why is there no real pankration left? How can it just dissapear?
Because like its development, it was rooted in its cultural context. With the fall of Classical Greece, the end of the Olympics, the rise of the Roman empire, and 3000 years of times-a-changin' it slowly faded away... How many Korean, Japanese, Chinese, and other martial arts are dying a cultural death because they no longer meet the needs of the people? Of those arts that are still around, how many do you think will truely stand the test of time (even 1000 years let alone 3000) as an unchanged system and how many will become so altered that they will no longer be recognizable?
Also when did people start naming fighting as an art with special names?
It seems that all anyone really has to say is "I know how to fight." instead of saying "I know jeet kun do."]
What high school do you go to? Why not just call them all "high school"? Why is your name Andrew? Why not just call you "human"?
It might have something to do with being able to tell something apart from something else with any sort of ease...
Hardcore Fighter
10-16-2003, 15:13
Well that makes sense. But at what point did they start naming styles?
Do you know if Rome had any martial arts?
De_Franza
10-16-2003, 15:39
They all came from Barry.
Sgagthak, you really dropped the ball on this one! Jeez!
Well that makes sense. But at what point did they start naming styles?
Id guess it probably started when some it became obvious that there were more than 2 or 3 people teaching different ways of fighting. I dont have any hard dates for you.
Do you know if Rome had any martial arts?
Rome the city or Rome the Empire?
The city was a hodge podge of people from around the Empire - some from Egypt, some from Spain, some from England (Britannea)... The Roman Armies utilized numerous weapons and had "weapon masters" to train the soldiers standardized ways how to use the Gladius, the Pila, the Hasta, etc. Each soldier came from their own regions with their own martial culture as well.
Each region of the Empire had its own fighting styles...
And The Gladiators were all VERY well trained fighters. Contrary to popular opinion, they were not simply tossed into the Colloseum to fight to the death, they were well trained (as while they were slaves, they were an expensive investment, and the longer they lived, the more money they brought in for their fights - some having over 300 victories). If you look at historical renditions of Gladiators, they were always dressed and armed differently and never fought someone with the same weapon or armour - this was for a very interesting reason. Each gladiator was trained in a specific art taken from each of the Empires conquored regions... One man would be taught to use the Trident and Net (Aegean fisherman) while another would be given a Gaulish Sword and Armor (or any other combination of styles) and when they fought it was a symbolic statment that the Citizens of Rome were better than these "fighting barbarians".
Yes, Rome *HAD* martial arts.
Originally posted by De_Franza
They all came from Barry.
Sgagthak, you really dropped the ball on this one! Jeez!
Well, Barry, being you know, a mammal, and fighting ALL The time, IS the supreme high god of all things cool, and by cool I mean totally sweet! and if you dont beleive that better you get a life right now or he will chop your head off!!!!!! He was of course the guy who introduced the concept of being fast, smooth, cool, strong, powerful, and sweet - but I dont think he had anything to do with David Carradines verison of Tai Chi, and so I cant truely get behind the idea the Barry invented ALL martial arts - most, sure - but all? Tae Bo speaks for iself! Would BARRY hang out with Billy Blanks? No! Barry would go crazy, flip out, start doing crazy sweet ninja moves and drop kick Billy Blanks in the nads before he chopped his head off!
**we now return to your regularly scheduled program**
Can I order a 'Barry' T-shirt?
No, but you can ask nicely for Barry to take your money and IF he doesnt kill you he MIGHT send you a nice pink Baby-Doll TShirt (size small).
Jeff Burger
10-17-2003, 00:10
LMAO
Barry can come and train with you.
We plan on sending him around the world.
Jeff
ninjandrew
10-17-2003, 09:47
I imagine MA started like sgathak said about people teaching other people to survive, than it gradually became more combat specific. Stuff like actual MA schools probably began when various people and military forces constructed their own style, and it was becoming difficult to keep track of what was going on. Im sure war was a major influence on the existence of MA schools. Im sure miscellaneous people would make their own styles as well. Bunk ones would be disregarded and forgotten, while the more effective ones may have been adopted by the army. Anything from an army thinking "We need to find a way to fight with some knowledge of what we're doing to be effective" to some Joe Schmoe watching a fight and thinking "He could have done this or this, quick do this. Wait a minute Ill just figure out a good way to fight, and maybe Ill teach it to others". As badly written as that was, Im sure you get my point.
Also, the concept of kung fu was originally impoted to China by Boddidharma. The same guy who brought zen to east asia. He thought one needed a strong body to balance with a strong mind (assuming it was excercised by zen). He also called meditation kung something else... Ive forgotten the word and I cant find it in my book, but these were the two sides of zen. Kung fu for stong body, kung whatever for stong mind. Monks and other people simply started turning kung fu into an actual MA, rather than lesser organized kung fu of Boddidharma. Bah, I wish I could remember the whole Boddidharma thing better, its crazy stuff. But MA was started by all kinds of people, all over the place, at different times for different reasons, so its hard to hit the nail on the head.
As far as I know North American MA never really existed until sometime in the last 150 years. Brought here by people like Bruce Lee and others. The '70s was the big MA binge of the century because it was when MA's started being brought over. Misc. indian tribes had their own ways of fighting, like Apache wolverine fighting, but thats about it. Uh, yeah...
Barry does have T-shirts. I like the one that states: "Ninjas are sooooo sweet I want to crap my pants". It has a nice ring to it.
Barry's Private Stock (http://www.cafeshops.com/realninja)
Hardcore Fighter
10-17-2003, 13:49
That was very interesting stuff about the gladiators. That would be really wild to actually witness a gladiator fight.
like Apache wolverine fighting,
WTF are you talking about?????????
Apache WOLVERINE fighting?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Please provide one SHRED of historical evidence for this... Please do so understanding that the wolverine is a northern/high mountain animal and the Apache were allied tribes across Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and Mexico.
sean_stonehart
10-17-2003, 14:33
Yeah I'd like to hear about Apache Wolvering fighting too since the only thing I can seem to scare up when I'm in Az is an ocassional javelina or jackrabbit. Even coyotes don't come around much.
Jay Bell
10-17-2003, 14:51
You guys haven't heard of the Greater Senoran Barking Wolverine? How little you have lived!
;)
ninjandrew
10-17-2003, 20:24
Lol!
Yeh, dunno why its called wolverine fighting. Tom Brown talks about it in a couple of his survival books. The one I read it in was either "Grandfather" or "Art and Science of Tracking". He mentions it while hes telling about a time he was tracking a criminal and he had to bust it out on the guy when he popped up out of nowhere and attacked him. An old Apache native he met when he was 11 showed him how. He called him Grandfather and was a student of his till he passed away about 20 years later. Not a school student, just like, learning from him about life. How to survive. He saw him everyday. There are other Indian styles to, I dont recall the names, but they have ads in mags and stuff.
ninjandrew
10-17-2003, 20:29
Just remembered, Grandfather travled for virtually his entire life on his own. Canada was a place he came to often. Maybe he called it that when he familiarized himself with wolverines or something. Like in kung fu, copying the movements of animals and using it to fight.
?
Hmmm. As a Native America and member of the Choctaw Nation (http://www.choctawnation.com) my grandmother never spoke of warriors having a 'named' fighting style. Granted the Choctaw people were not a waring people like other tribes e.g. Apache, Blackfoot, Sioux...etc, however we still had to protect our land, livestock and people. It wasn't until the United States Government up rooted my ancestors in Mississippi and marched us to the southern counties what is now Oklahoma. (Trail of Tears from the Indian Removal Act.)
In the summers my mother would send me away to Indian Summer School (www.ris.bia.edu/) . There we were taught about other tribes our own tribe and culture. We were grouped up:Cheyenne, Arapaho, Commanche, Sac & Fox, Crow, Cherokee and others. The teachers spoke about weapons and hunting, but again never spoke about 'named' fighting styles.
I am not saying its not true, just pointing out that I have never come across anything about Native America formalized style. If any thing we would have been more like the Ninja of Japan, stealth and sneaky. Long and short range weapons as well as the ability to break down camp and travel in short period of time.
Sorry for the history lesson, just wanted to add my two cents.
I am quite familiar with Tom Brown and his stories of "Grandfather". Tom Brown has a fantastic knowledge of the wilderness but on occasion I question him when he comes up with such outlandish stuff as this (odd enough I had to go back and see for myself, plus do some research on it to see if it was true). However, to his credit, the director of Tom Browns "Tracker School" states "As to Native American Martial arts, when I mentioned this to my Indian friends, the laughed long and hard. They tell me that there was never a fighting form that one could call Native American. The Apache Wolverine fighting Tom teaches is not a style, so much as a mind set, the process of tapping into the primal self, and trusting instinct."
The people who teach the courses on "scout protection" for Tom Browns school are Paul Bonner, George Larson, and Vanessa Larson - Who have studied the following arts according to Tom Browns site: Filipino Marital Arts, Jun Fan Gung Fu/JKD Concepts, Wing Chun, Muay Thai and Maphilindo Silat. It makes ZERO reference to study of any "Native American" martial art - and these are the guys teaching the class.
Maybe you should do a bit more research.
There are other Indian styles to, I dont recall the names, but they have ads in mags and stuff.
Do you really believe everything you see in Ads?
There are two "known" teachers of so called Native American Martial arts - Randall Brown who also claims to be an instructor of a "Akumu Ryu Bujutsu Remmei". The other individual who claims to teach a Native martial art is some Kenpo guy who IIRC claims to know a Cherokee/Aztec art. (uhh what?)
Neither are able to support their stories anymore than those guys who claim to have learned the last of a dying art from some Japanese/Chinese "Master" who long ago died with no history of the art nor anyone to corroborate their stories.
I found a few references to Joseph Lau, who teaches "lance fighting" for the Tracker School under Tom Brown, whosays his training comes from Bujikan Budo Taijutsu... again, no reference to a "Native American Martial Art"
From TRS - The company that produced videos for Randall Brown:
Randall Brown may be a 12th degree black belt and grandmaster, a 4th degree black belt in Yondan, an expert at Sambo combat, and an authorized instructor in six other martial arts -- but he insists that this "Plains Indian" form of fighting is the most lethal, brutal, and viciously effective thing you’ll EVER run across....Randall stresses that he did NOT add an ounce of "Asian Martial Arts" to this system. He did not "build" or piece together his own system. Nope. What he teaches you is nothing but pure, distilled, untouched "Plains Indian" fighting techniques
Anyone want to take a crack at this?
12th degree Black Belt and Grandmaster?
a Yondan in a system also called Yondan?
Sambo expert?
and an authorized instructor in 6 other (unnamed) arts?
If my math is right - Im counting no less than 10 systems this man is an expert/instructor in... judging by his picture he is, maybe 40? Thats quite an accomplishment!
According to his personal website (www.akumu.com), he learned this plains indian system from a Canadian Comanche (???) "affectionatly" named "Wind Painter" but does not give any identifying information for outside follow up... Who taught him a complete system that has zero influences from any "asian" arts. (Odd in that it was noted by several trappers and later by Cowboys that the various tribes had never developed as a fighting technique the use of the fist, prefering to use weapons in mortal combat, and sports such as lacross and wrestling games to settle more friendly disagreements, while Randall Brown seems to make a bit of a scene out of a punch that can "stop a mans heart")
I dunno... I see some red flags... I see even more when I look at the pictures on his website and see moves almost identical to those performed by Mark Dacascos in "Brotherhood of the Wolf".
ninjandrew
10-18-2003, 13:29
The Apache Wolverine fighting Tom teaches is not a style, so much as a mind set, the process of tapping into the primal self, and trusting instinct."
Close enough.
Maybe you should do a bit more research.
Nah, maybe someday. Im not very interested in this side of MA, I just mentioned what I know off the top of my head. Like one would do in a public forum.
Do you really believe everything you see in Ads?
Of course not, what makes you think that. BUT, if it says "Come learn this crazy MA". I assume its a style that can be learned somewhere, most likely where the ad mentions.
I dunno Randall Brown, like I said its a topic Im not very knowledgable about. But the ad I was talking about is Adrian Romans tushka-homa system. Dunno anything 'bout that either, but ones first assumption from the ad is that it must exist. If you wanna see if its real, sure, maybe it isn't.
Regardless of all that has been mentioned, Im sure tribes had their own ways of fighting that was practiced amongst them. I mean, how could they be called warriors, and not know what to do in a fight? But speaking of red flags, one can find red flags in a text book if he looks hard enough. The world of MA is full of 'red flags' is it not?
Yeeeaahhhhh... Andrian Roman.... Thats the other guy.
It should be noted that among many tribes, it was valour not skill that was most prized. It was better to touch someone than kill them... and if someone did die, a warrior could gain merit by touching his dead body.Things need to be looked at in a cultural context. To do that you need to have some sort of understanding of the culture in question...
In regards to ads... I can put an ad in BlackBelt saying Ill teach you the secrets of the Jedi... Theres an ad so I must be teaching something right? Doesnt mean it has anything to do with the Jedi.
ninjandrew
10-18-2003, 15:11
But if I were to view everything from such a critical point of view, I may as well not read books, mags, watch movies, talk to people. Unless I planned on researching every piece of information I came across, their may as well be no point in trying to learn anything. You could say your teaching what your not, but that wouldn't help your reputation very much. Does Adrian Roman not teach what his ads tell us or something??
Valour not skill that was most prized?? True enough, or so it is in almost every culture. But that doesn't really deny the possibility of native warriors attempting to learn to defend themselves. As much as valour is valued in the world, it isnt very effective in anything other than getting killed unless you know what your doing. Im assuming the old tribes bothered to learn to fight, a reasonable assumption considering a violent and bloody past. If they didn't, alright, so there wasn't any form of MA in North America.
Out of interest, what this about touching dead bodies?? Did they not want to kill each other or something??:confused: In comfused.
" dunno Randall Brown, like I said its a topic Im not very knowledgable about. But the ad I was talking about is Adrian Romans tushka-homa system. Dunno anything 'bout that either, but ones first assumption from the ad is that it must exist. If you wanna see if its real, sure, maybe it isn't. "
I do not believe Adrian Roman is Choctaw however he uses the Choctaw words of Tushka (Warrior) Homa (People) like Okla (Red) Homa (People).
What he teaches is either American Kempo or perhaps a Ed Parker Kempo.
Depending on where tribes were located within the United States would determine their fighting styles. The plains Indians would have different tactics than the Pueblo or the Costal Indian.
Piki uba ish binili ma! Chi hohchifo hut holitopashke.
Originally posted by ninjandrew
[B]But if I were to view everything from such a critical point of view, I may as well not read books, mags, watch movies, talk to people. Unless I planned on researching every piece of information I came across, their may as well be no point in trying to learn anything.
Or you could use some basic critical thinking skills, and rather than accept something without question, do some research before assuming it as true.
You could say your teaching what your not, but that wouldn't help your reputation very much. Does Adrian Roman not teach what his ads tell us or something??
Yes, misrepresentation is to your reputations detriment - assuming that someone actually decided to follow up rather than just simply accept what is said as fact.
Valour not skill that was most prized?? True enough, or so it is in almost every culture. But that doesn't really deny the possibility of native warriors attempting to learn to defend themselves.
no it doesnt, but the point was that things need to be looked at in context... in this case the context is cultural.
As much as valour is valued in the world, it isnt very effective in anything other than getting killed unless you know what your doing. Im assuming the old tribes bothered to learn to fight, a reasonable assumption considering a violent and bloody past. If they didn't, alright, so there wasn't any form of MA in North America.
Your assuming that war was based on killing - for many tribes it wasnt. Other tribes were of course more warlike than others but again, its important to look at these things in context. Could a people do reaserch into the best ways to fight? OF COURSE, but was it of enough importance to warrent the standardization of a "system"? Probably not. The "average tribe" was not focused enough on killing and conquering (an aspect which historically was a contributing factor to systemized combat development - greek, roman, chinese, japanese, korean)
Out of interest, what this about touching dead bodies?? Did they not want to kill each other or something??:confused: In comfused.
Depends on the tribe - coup counting was mainly a plains tradition - however it came from a CULTURAL understanding of what was valourous and what was gratuitous. Why kill if theres as much if not more honor in not killing?
ninjandrew
10-18-2003, 20:08
do some research before assuming it as true.
No. If I was to consider practicing the tushka-homa system than hell ya. Totally. But I simply glance at it when I see it in a mag. "Oh look, an advertisement... in a magazine, full of advertisements". If I was to research everything, jesus that would take forever. A simple advertisement I thought I would mention, nothing more. YOU can research it if you want. Since its a simple ad I kinda disregard it as valuable information, other than evidence that the system exists. Or, may exist, I guess.
Your assuming that war was based on killing
Not really, just not dying. Not assuming its BASED on anything.
I didn't realize we were looking at anything in any context. Merely debating the existence of a system, or the existence of tribal MA, or the origins of MA, or... I dont even know what the heck we're talking about anymore. This is messed up. Can we not switch back to the topic, or... something.
I thought this WAS the topic
You know, where did martial arts come from? This is simply a divergence onto native martial arts whihc diverted specifically because you made a statment that was, err, interesting?
Originally posted by Sgathak
Martial Arts came from people fighting.
...The guys who didnt die taught other people how to not die, and then some genius thought it might be a good idea to open a school and teach ALOT of people how to not die.
Either way - somebody knew something someone esle didnt, and he taught it to someone, who taught it to someone and so on... and somewhere down the line somebody had figured out enough ways to kill/not die and had taught enough people how to do it that it became a "standard" way of doing things.
It happend around the world as needed.
Sounds good to me.
Originally posted by ninjandrew
...As far as I know North American MA never really existed until sometime in the last 150 years. Brought here by people like Bruce Lee and others. The '70s was the big MA binge of the century because it was when MA's started being brought over. Misc. indian tribes had their own ways of fighting, like Apache wolverine fighting, but thats about it. Uh, yeah...
This kind of contradicts itself doesn't it.
ninjandrew
10-19-2003, 15:13
Yes, it had diverged into native martial arts. But it diverged again,
"Or you could use some basic critical thinking skills", "look at things in context". These have nothing to do with native MA, or anything for that matter, other than the way I do things. So far since we brought the topic up, you said it may not be true, I said it may (native MA existence, the ad). You said they were more about valour, I said surviving a war wasn't a bad idea.
Can I change everything with one word?? Because I meant to say 'Misc. indian tribes MAY HAVE had their own ways of fighting...'. Which I still think they did. It only makes sense.
If you want to research the validity of the ad, sure, it would be interesting to know. But like I said it isn't a big enough deal to me that Im going to go research it. Regardless of the outcome, I will still believe native MA existed.
Tom Brown said he used "apache wolverine fighting I had learned from Grandfather". Because of this, can you blame me for thinking their was a form of it?? That and it is simply a logical assumption that indians would have their own ways of fighting, isn't it?? Considering their history? If so, their would only need to be one tribe which does so, in order for their to be native MA.
Oh, yeah, its all about you :rolleyes:
Point is, statments were made based on assumption. A good rule of thumb if you dont know what your talking about, is either quantify your statements (yes you CAN change everything with one word) or dont say it.
If this thread bores you, dont respond to it anymore.
ninjandrew
10-19-2003, 16:34
I guess maybe I shouldn't have mentioned my mere assumptions. I thought I was just bringing up a possibility nobody mentioned.
I searched 'native martial arts' on Yahoo. They existed. So at least my assumptions were correct.
Excuse my bad assumption, assuming people would take it with a grain of salt. Theres a rule of thumb when using forums.
The thread doesn't bore me. The going no where argument with you does. I value your input more than most peoples on this forum, you know alot, and you can organize your thoughts well enough its nice to read and easy to understand. But the last several posts between us are ridiculous. Tell me you agree.
To be honest with you, I have no problem with assumptions/opinions/guess' as long as they are made apparent that they are what they are. Forums are text based only (unless you count emoticons as facial expressions) and as such, its important that words be used properly or they will be misunderstood. What may be apparent to you as a left field statement doesnt always come across like that and things like this conversation happen.
This thread was a good one, until it denegrated into yet another uselessly arguementative thread. Though it did serve a purpose, even to the end.
If you can provide any verifyable information in rgards to American Indian martial arts, please do so as (while I dont have the lifetime of exposure Jabonn has had) I have had several years of intense study on American Indian lifestyle - with a focus on hunting, warfare, and fieldcraft - and have not at any point found anything which points, even minutely, to a systemized method of hand to hand combat.
ninjandrew
10-19-2003, 17:24
Nice, now we're getting somewhere.
This thread was a good one, until it denegrated into yet another uselessly arguementative thread. Though it did serve a purpose, even to the end.
Lol. Threads sure do that alot. It sure is more difficult to cummunicate through text like this. Who was it that said "What we have HERE is a FAILURE to COMMUNICATE."?
Anyway so far I have this, http://nativenet.uthscsa.edu/archive/nl/9405/0373.html
Its isn't organized, but its sounds like MA to me. It depends on your def. of MA to I guess, mine being something like various methods of armed or unarmed combat, originally used in warfare.
Axe throwing, 'skull crusher' clubs, knife throwing, bow-and-arrow. Tom Browns apparent wolverine fighting focusing on train of thought and instinctual fighting. Inuits used to use sharpened whale bone blades tied to their arms. I wish I knew your def. of MA was 'systemized'. That makes it harder to prove, but if one considers that each tribe (some of them at least) had there own way, that makes it kinda systemized. I cant imagine it being systemized in a single tribe....
Its my opinion that it is the systemization that leads to it being an "art".
Otherwise its just "fighting" and any school yard kid can do that. Without training they can kick, punch, bite, trip, pick up a rock or stick, tackle, wrestle, or choak. Give it a couple years of raids, hunting parties, and lacrosse games and you would probably get pretty good at fighting - but would it be a martial art?
As I indicated in the begining of this thread, the roots of a martial art are simple - being good at fighting - but theres more to it than that.
Hardcore Fighter
10-21-2003, 09:28
Martial arts is about fighting.
Every kind of fighting is a martial art in my opinion. It doesnt have to have a name or a philosophy.
The art of fighting can be anything. If an indian uses a tomahawk then that is a martial art. If a thug picks up a crowbar then that can be a martial art. If a skateboarder uses his skateboard to defend himself against 5 gangster kids then that can be a martial art.
Thats what I think. Learning how to fight in general is a martial art.
MartialWarrior
10-21-2003, 09:38
a martial art is more than fighting...i believe :)
The art of fighting can be anything. If an indian uses a tomahawk then that is a martial art. If a thug picks up a crowbar then that can be a martial art. If a skateboarder uses his skateboard to defend himself against 5 gangster kids then that can be a martial art.
I think I have been to one of those JKD Concepts Seminars. :D :D
Hardcore Fighter
10-21-2003, 11:15
It is more then fighting but then again has everything to do with fighting.
ninjandrew
10-21-2003, 14:57
I can see where your coming from. But I look at the 'art' in martial arts like tao, the way. I think if you practice something, a weapon for instance, you learn the way of the weapon. This is what I think differentiates an art, or way, from doing something without understanding it. Throwing an knife, I believe is an art and must be practiced. But not if one simply picks up the knife with no particular skill and tossing it at a target, this I dont think is an art or, the way of the knife.
Im glad everyone responded again, I was afraid our usless argument may have caused you to disregard this thread or something.
Hardcore Fighter
10-23-2003, 07:42
Thanks to your stupid argument I HATE THIS THREAD!! Just kidding.
I think if a guy goes out and fights a lot of people all of the time. This is martial arts. The guy could have picked up some boxing skills and some kicking from a friend or whatever or just copy what he sees on movies. I think what he is doing is martial arts. It doesnt mean he is good at all, but he is using martial arts to fight.
Just because a style of fighting is not a named system doesnt mean its not a martial art. Just because native americans didnt name their fighting styles doesnt mean its not a martial art. I think the tomahawk is a very cool art. And the art of scalping. Indian knife fighting! Spear techniques! Very cool.
MartialWarrior
10-23-2003, 07:54
I agree with you Hardcore Fighter. That people can use anything to defend themselves , just by simple body mechanics if you like. And yes , that is a part of martial arts. But a martial art can be more than fighting.
Thanks :)
Hardcore Fighter
10-23-2003, 09:25
What is the other part thats not fighting?
Bettering yourself as a human? Making yourself stronger?
There is other stuff people wouldnt say is fighting. But in my opinion all of that is a part of fighting.
MartialWarrior
10-23-2003, 09:28
Some people practise martial arts to defend themselves , while other practise for mental purposes, or just for having fun. Some practise martial arts to look cool , and some other for their good health. Martial arts is a way of life. :D
Hardcore Fighter
10-23-2003, 11:35
Ya but its all about fighting.
People get good health, strong minds, and look cool all through learning how to fight.
Based on MartialWarrior's and Hardcore Fighter's descriptions above we can safely assume that the StarWars Kid (http://www.jedimaster.net) is a martial artist.
Cliff Hargrave
10-23-2003, 13:59
Star Wars kid Rules!
sean_stonehart
10-23-2003, 14:48
Originally posted by jabonn
Based on MartialWarrior's and Hardcore Fighter's descriptions above we can safely assume that the StarWars Kid (http://www.jedimaster.net) is a martial artist.
*sigh*... unfortunately based on their descriptions... *sigh*... yes... the Jedi kid would be considered a martial artist on the video... plus he'd probably be ranked as a padawan learner as well... *sigh*
Hardcore Fighter
10-23-2003, 15:15
Whatever sean. Thats not what I meant.
thebigj8
10-23-2003, 16:38
Honor, respect and desipline are all important factors to one being considered a martial artist (in my book)
sean_stonehart
10-23-2003, 17:17
Originally posted by Hardcore Fighter
Whatever sean. Thats not what I meant.
Then say exactly what you mean & people will not misunderstand you... just a helpful tip ....
rubberband
11-08-2003, 21:34
The oldest recorded complete martial art system is on the wall of a tomb at Beni Hasan, Egypt... as for origions of eastern and western arts it is kind of blurry... because Asia, Africa, and Europe are all connected by land and readily accessable by water... most scholars believe that as modern man hunted in groups and developed communication he began to pass on all types of knowledge... and of course where fighting is involved it is Manly nature if not human nature to want it proven through direct application... so wrestling was most likely developed and became a way of preparing for war and gaining clan status... much like other primates... as modern man moved around he took his ideas on fighting with him as he conquered or was conquered... learned from observation or experiment... and eventually organized it into something to pass on... In the East most people believe martial arts first developed in India... which makes sense because India was easy to access from the Cradle of civilization... In the West fighting methods developed all over Europe and Africa... over time borders, distance, and other geographic isolators developed which caused divergences in techique to arrise... cultural/religious influence and attack methods lead to the development of appropriate responses and style was created... In the East it is believed that martial techique moved North and then out to Japan as well as southeast... In the West the Tribes developed their own methods as they spread... then Empires in both East and West developed and standardized martial technique through military training... with the major factor being technology... armor, weapons, battle field tactics, etc... the areas without material and monatary resources to develop technologies of war and standing armies were subsequently left to develop more individual oriented fighting methods... also at this time as now, wrestling was still practiced universally... power also influenced the development of the arts of war... power struggles became the fields where technique was tested and proven... and then the Monguls came to town... and took the town... and the greatest Euro-Asian melting pot of culture, religion, and fighting method developed... spreading all across Asia and into Europe... later as new countries emerged and things settled down East, West, and Middle East all began trading culture, religion, and fighting skills... The areas that still remained geographically or socially isolated continued to develop their own styles... such as African tribal methods and the arts of the Phillopines... not to mention the methods of Native American tribes and peoples... over time weapon designs changed and the battle field change, and so empty hand fighting changed also... this eventually led to the gun... the technological edge... well not a first... but coming years of killing technologically inferior peoples would help develop it into a right powerful tool of diplomacy... so then people discovered the world wasn't flat, and Europe, Asia, and Africa were not all she wrote... so a new melting pot developed in the Americas where fear and greed reined supreme... and sugar lust led to the need of cheap labor which brought over more fighting ideas with slaves... over time all the killing created an American identity that wanted to be seperate from the English Empire, so all that practice killing off indiginous peoples paid off and a new country was born... and there were still technologically inferior people to conquer and borders to establish... mean while, back in Europe... England expanded her territory elsewhere and more arts were exposed... eventually slave money became too powerful and slavery was psuedo abolished... so cheap Asian and Irish labor could be utilized... and yet more ideas came to town... in the new country things were wild... and in the old world things were heating up... which lead to War... and a technology race... at the end of the war the world was talking and matches and expos of fighters from all over the world were diplayed... and ideas were exchanged... it was the wealthy social thing to dable in exotic fighting arts... while the lessor common folk stuck with their wrestling... then another world war opened up more of the East to the west and soldiers began learning the socially hip fighting styles of the East and came home to try and spread them... which wasn't all that successful at first and then a market developed and things were made marketable... then the technology age made fighting information widely availiable... so techniques from all time peroids can be tried out... so things can be very confusing and overwhleming... and the World Wide Web became the new melting pot of ideas and techniques...
take care,
ninjandrew
11-09-2003, 16:53
Sorry, I wasn't paying attention. Could you say that one more time?
johenora
11-10-2003, 00:01
Martial Arts originated at the dawning of humankind throughout Mother Earth. Came about from defense, hunting,farming .gathering etc.Even got into music ,poetry,fables, dancing and singing etc --now is in books,movies and here on internet. Wow---Such progress.
Musubi Dojo
11-10-2003, 10:11
Primordial Rock fighting was the first Martial Art Known to Mankind.
It all started when "UHG" and "URG" first crawled out of the primordial ooze that covered the planet and both decided to claim the same piece of tasty vegitation as their own. UHG and URG immediately began bashing each other with rocks. Thus the style was born.
Their decendants still hurl insults at each across the ether of the interent to this day.
:D
Cheers
c
johenora
11-10-2003, 13:08
Hi Chris---
You did it again. Right on and I bet these rock guys were also hiding in their caves while the woman went out hunting. When fire was discovered---what a reversal.
As a kid I saw a B&W movie called Two Million BC and as you discribed it --two guys grunted and fought.Then all heck broke loose when the dinasours got into a martial art contest.
How many insults have been hurled at you in real life and internet? A lot I bet.You should see my back--scarred from all the spears thrown at me.
UHG and URG are still at it with disguised names and places of origin--clamaring and hollering on internet that guy is a fraud, that martial art is the best etc etc.
The only thing that tops this one is all the fancy colored belts/obi and the millions of patches on the Uniforms/Gi. It has become a free for all and who can wear the most preposterous uniform --stripes and all that glitters.The Hollywood style is the hottest rage but not the original martial art. The UHG-URG is the original version and no one can deny that. Keep training and cheering.
Cheers,
Hardcore Fighter
11-11-2003, 07:57
The first martial artist was Cain. He killed his brother. It had nothing to do with Ug and Urg or evolution.
After that people just went nuts.
Musubi Dojo
11-11-2003, 08:00
*SNIFF* * SNIFF*
I smell a religious debate.
This is where I'm make my exit.
May your God go with you.
:)
Cheers
c
johenora
11-11-2003, 16:11
Andrew----you are --HardCore!
No arguments on this one.It sounds better than the Kojiki where the dude used the rock to clobbetr his opponent. Lucky it wasn't a coffee cup.Kindly see "Canons of Judo" by Kyuzo Mifune,10th Dan.
I for one am going to run away from this Abel and Caine event, because deep down it is the only thing to do. Get out of paradise and RUN.
This I learned when I got my yellow belt lesson.
When in doubt put on your helmet well strapped on and run for cover --to a fox hole if one is available and I mean "cover" from incoming crossfire,artillery fire and mortar fire.
Stayz alive to fight another day.
Cheers,
johenora
11-11-2003, 16:21
Chris----I note you made a rapid EXIT. I too saw the incoming fire and broke the speed record running away. Notice all the fighting was by men--women knew better.
HardCore fighter made a great MA point---to quote him:"After that peole just went nuts."
This a good reason for studying martial arts even if humankind originated battle--strategy and tactics etc. Hope nobody posts why do animals fight?Or do animals use martial arts? If this happens I am going on vacation for a rest of my body which is the container of my precious soul.
Cheers,
Jerusalem
11-12-2003, 00:17
The origins of the martial arts has always intriqued me. From what little I've learned, I'm inclined to follow the India to China school of thought.
I've also read about text books from medevial times that show techniques used by people fighting with the zwihander (or two-handed sword).
Finally, being a TKD student, I've been facinated by the exchange of culture between the Asian countries. One sticking point for me and one that I hope someone might be able to help me verify or discount: I have read information that relate the Hwarang warriors as the pre-cursor to the Samurai. Considering the history behind the two societies doesn't really help answer questions concerning history and truth. Anyone have any knowledge of this?
johenora
11-12-2003, 01:14
Originally posted by Jerusalem
The origins of the martial arts has always intriqued me. From what little I've learned, I'm inclined to follow the India to China school of thought......
One sticking point for me and one that I hope someone might be able to help me verify or discount: I have read information that relate the Hwarang warriors as the pre-cursor to the Samurai. Considering the history behind the two societies doesn't really help answer questions concerning history and truth. Anyone have any knowledge of this?
Dear Eric Dillard:
You have hit a sore spot in my heart from which I wish I had become an archaeologist-martial art historian.Maybe the Dreagerites could give us the answer to this facinating question. I have to say for the present time I will stay out of this area.
My biased view is I do not think the Koreans were the precursors to the Bushi or Samurai warriors. I have been maintaining Yoshimitsu was Japanese not Korean.On another thread I am imersed in this one. The answer may be in front of me like my eyelashes which I know are there but I can not see them. Yoshimitsu was Shinto. Aren't Hwa Rang Doists Buddhists? That is as far as I will go until I learn otherwise from the experts.
Prior to 1392 A.D.I have little information of Korean Martial Arts. After 1392 there is a lot of information in a book in English called:Muye Dobo Tongji--The Comprehensive Illustrated Manual of Martial Arts of Ancient Korea by Professor Sang H. Kim,Ph.D. the translator. I got mine from Turtle Press. See www.turtlepress.com
Cheers and Happy Thanksgiving,
Jerusalem
11-12-2003, 01:33
good info!
Part of my problem with this question is my own bias. My belief is that martial knowledge passed from China down toward Korea and then into Japan. In my amazingly small knowledge of martial cultures, my thoughts are that Japan's culture originally derived from the other asian cultures....then they made their own changes to make it 'Japanese'.
I bring this up so that others with more knowledge can help me out on this. I'm also aware that I'd have been pimp slapped if I ever was rude enough to bring this up to anyone from any of the cultures involved. Hopefully others will come forth with more knowledge that can correct or confirm my ideas.
johenora
11-12-2003, 01:36
Dear Eric:
I may have found the answer to your question and mine regarding the Hwarand Warriors. Also "Shinra Saburo" Yoshimitsu-his real name was Minamoto No Yoshimitsu and he was a 6th generation descendent of the Japanese Emperor Seiwa (1055-1127). The Koreans have distorted the History. It is a repeated lie. They created a fiction based on his possible youth's name.
See the Myth of Hwarang on neue_strassenbahn/Hwarang on internet or do a google search. Also see Korea the Preposterous World --same site.
This answers in my opinion based upon a reasonable certainty the Korean hoaxes or myths.
Can someone give us sorces to the contrary?
Cheers,
Jerusalem
11-12-2003, 12:49
Dang, that's a let down to a korean martial artist. But it's nothing more than I really expected.
johenora
11-12-2003, 18:49
Eric:
This is usual--especially if you read on the web site of Mr. Bob Duggan's trials and tribulations with HRD in the early formative years and what came about.
Cheers,
Hardcore Fighter
11-13-2003, 09:03
I am a Korean martial artist, and I have noticed that it seems that Koreans basically copy other countries martial arts and rename them with a Korean name. I mean Taekwondo is basically the same art as Karate but it DOES have better kicks and more kicks. Hapkido is basically aikido but it DOES focus more on being aggressive and has way better combat techniques. Kumdo is basically Kendo but I dont know much about it but I saw a demo and it looked like a samurai sword art or ninja. There isnt much of a difference. Plus every history book about TKD I read says a different thing. So I kind of think Koreans try to take credit and make themselves out to be something more then they are and lie about their history. Or the TKD people try to lie about it and make it something that isnt true.
You never see "Taekwondo is 48 years old" in a book. You always see "Taekwondo is over 2000 years old!" Which is total BS. Taekwondo only became Taekwondo in 1955.
Jerusalem
11-13-2003, 13:19
Originally posted by Hardcore Fighter
I am a Korean martial artist, and I have noticed that it seems that Koreans basically copy other countries martial arts and rename them with a Korean name. I mean Taekwondo is basically the same art as Karate but it DOES have better kicks and more kicks. Hapkido is basically aikido but it DOES focus more on being aggressive and has way better combat techniques. Kumdo is basically Kendo but I dont know much about it but I saw a demo and it looked like a samurai sword art or ninja. There isnt much of a difference. Plus every history book about TKD I read says a different thing. So I kind of think Koreans try to take credit and make themselves out to be something more then they are and lie about their history. Or the TKD people try to lie about it and make it something that isnt true.
You never see "Taekwondo is 48 years old" in a book. You always see "Taekwondo is over 2000 years old!" Which is total BS. Taekwondo only became Taekwondo in 1955.
I don't condone it either. But do you understand why it happens?
johenora
11-13-2003, 19:55
Hardcore Fighter:
I am with you on your view. The Korean martial arts are great--their kumdo is the finest and they are growing by leaps and bounds. I think a NY Times Newspaper article said about 70 % of the martial arts in the USA is of Korean.
TKDo was designed to beat Japanese Shotokan Karate. The Korean Katas show this by evidentiary fact.. In the 1930's the Japanese invaded Korea and subjugated the Koreans badly. Those that survived know what I mean.In the 50's I was in Korea with the 1st Marine Division ,FMF. I was a young officer --the Division Ammuniton Officer. I saw how Korea suffered.
This is part of the reason some Koreans like the Japanese. Some Koreans hate the Japanese--because of the Japan-Korean war.
Koreans have a great heritage --just like all Nations and States. I think it was a Korean who invented the first non-folding fan from seeing a bat.
Koreans do not need a Japanese Hakama.
My gripe and pet peeve is with those who say their art is Aiki JuJutsu when in truth in fact the only Japnese Art with AikiJuJutsu or AikiJutsu is Daito Ryu--a Koryu Art.
Many have taken Aikido --a Gendai art not Koryu and attached punching and kicking and other elements and attached a fake heritage to it and say it is derived from Daito Ryu. Baloney and hotdogs, a filler--not a steak--pure fraud,myth or hoax.Ask the Sensei---where did your martial art originate from and let me see your license/or/scrolls--Makimomno with the seals imprinted in red.. These are 18 foot long scrolls that can be booked with thread --showing the history ,lineage, techniques, spirit of the art--even some parts are poetic in nature.
Even if you see the scrolls and he/she says it is now Daito Ryu AikiBudo-all self defense ---be careful--it will be taught to you Gendai. If you want Gendai fine. If you want Koryu it will be taught to you Bujutsu --then look elsewhere. You must taste the flavor and see the origins of the art--the name says something, but see for yourself.Many Americans say their art originated in Japan--when in reality it originated in thier minds from some Japanese book or books or now-a-days tapes.
They should be honest and say this art comes from a book or a tape and not lie by giving a false background of fake Japanese names--such as Hokufune-no-Kami Ise
They are getting away with it because in the past Daito Ryu was so secret and selective and shrouded in Shinto mystery.
My MAIN POINT is if you see an art that claims it is derived from Daito Ryu---ask to see the DENSHO--scrolls of transmission.
Ask to see the teaching license--CAVET If they do not got them--it is not KORYU and in all liklihood it is not originated from Daito Ryu.No scrolls/no license -no Daito ryu derivation. Daito Ryu is barbaric--it is not a peaceful art like Aikido.
Daito Ryu Aiki Bujutsu dudes have swords,spears, war fans, ropes, daggers ad infiitum. Their clothing is of old Japan flavor etc.Hakama,wide Obi, and Mon.God forbid --no big bragging vain as can be PATCHES.
They are taught to kiai,hurt,capture,maim,arrest, wrap you up like a pretzel. Be ready for pain and shouting. Their thinking and spirit is based on WAR--attack and defense against one or many opponents--if you see DaitoRyu Aiki Budo --it is flavoring away from true Daito Ryu BuJutsu--Bushi-Warrior spirit. At times Daito Ryu waza appears like in part Chinese especially the AIKI.
The teachers are not young--they are in their 50's or older.It is not learned in 3 or 5 years like Gendai kendo or judo etc.
Aikido is derived, in a very,very small part, from Daito Ryu--Uppermost Aikido is Gendai not Koryu---there is no bujutsu in Aikido.
This should be a subject of a separate thread lie "Gendai vs Koryu" me thinks.But who wishes to pose the question?
Cheers,
Hardcore Fighter
11-18-2003, 12:02
What I really meant was I PRACTICE Korean martial arts. Im not Korean. Im a white American.
Anyway I think all of the problems with their history happened because Japan destroyed it all when they invaded so they try to make up stuff to make up for their lost history so they can have pride.
I guess...It doesnt mean its an excuse to lie about TKD being 2000 years old.
Jerusalem
11-18-2003, 22:30
Originally posted by Hardcore Fighter
What I really meant was I PRACTICE Korean martial arts. Im not Korean. Im a white American.
Anyway I think all of the problems with their history happened because Japan destroyed it all when they invaded so they try to make up stuff to make up for their lost history so they can have pride.
I guess...It doesnt mean its an excuse to lie about TKD being 2000 years old.
I agree, I don't think that makes it right to say those things. But I can understand why they would.
Jay Bell
11-18-2003, 22:41
Anyway I think all of the problems with their history happened because Japan destroyed it all when they invaded so they try to make up stuff to make up for their lost history so they can have pride.
uhm...what? You don't know much about Korean culture, do ya, champ?
Hardcore Fighter
11-19-2003, 15:10
Exactly. I dont. It was a guess, but I wouldnt mind learning about Korean culture and history.
So if I am wrong then why DO Koreans always try to sensationalize their martial art?
Whats funny is that the TKD people sensationalize TKD and then when you hear how awsome it is you want to sign up and you think your going to learn all of the secrets of the hwa rang knights and fight so good. Then you find out all you are going to do in class is play games with kids and stuff.
I am talking about the millions of mcdojangs out there, not true TKD. Dont get offended.
Jay Bell
11-19-2003, 15:30
Koreans tend to be a very proud people. (I was married into a Korean family..) I can't imagine someone in Korea saying, "We got this bit from Japan...this bit here from China....etc" Even my father-in-law, at the time, would rarely speak of being born on Japanese soil...having been Korean.
Hardcore Fighter
11-19-2003, 18:19
Ya Koreans are a proud people and really have strong character. Those are great qualities. I bet thats why you married a Korean right? Pretty cool.
I didnt think Koreans really allowed interracial marriage.
The only thing I cant agree with is pride to where it becomes arrogance and racist.
I do like the Korean ladies, but I prefere more Americanized ones who are more laid back.
Anyway this topic got taken from martial arts to hot ladies. Woops.
If Koreans dont like to talk about Japanese influence or Chinese influence, where do people learn the true unbiased history of their culture? From outsiders?
worndowndahnbonym
11-19-2003, 20:37
Nobody, ever, anywhere learns an unbiased history.
There's no such thing.
johenora
11-20-2003, 03:21
Andrew-- Heck! The martial arts did not originate in Korea. Stylized martial arts originated in India. As far as I see it the Koreans only sensationalized the martial arts. Koreans and their off -spring in this country control about 70% of the martial arts.
Good for them. This does not make them the best but the mostest.
Any Brazilian Ju-Jitsuka will tell us their art is the best because it affords the most options,etc.. If we do not beleve them we can fight or challenge them and see the result first hand.All we have to do is just go to a Brazilian school and make the challenge and I guarantee the match will be accepted in a gentlemanly way and see what happens according to the Ju-Jitsu rules and proofs of the match. if you ask them they will admit the art came from Japan(Count Komo-Imai) and it evolved --beginning with the Gracies, Machdos--Brazilians and even Germans in Brazil and now persons in the USA etc. The art is also a sport and if you are very good at it you can also buy a house ,etc. Brazilian Ju-Jitsu will be evalolving for a long time because it requires a keen fighting spirit and options.
Semper Fidelis,
Cheers,
Hardcore Fighter
11-20-2003, 09:24
It would be nice to buy a house.
Do people ever go into Taekwondo schools and challenge them to fight? I am sure its happened. How many of the fights are accepted? I would like to fight other schools of TKD in matches in a gentlemanly matter.
ninjandrew
11-20-2003, 11:18
Hwarang warriors were panty-waists. Than when they realized they were pampered upper class sissies they went gay. Honestly, as in homosexual. Most of them anyway, "Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts" talks about it.
Hardcore Fighter
11-20-2003, 12:11
HAHAH! That was hilarious. Are you serious? Where the heck did you find a book that talks about them being gay?
I knew that they were cultured people and upperclass people and trained in artistic stuff like singing and painting and all that. But I didnt think that they were homosexuals as well.
ninjandrew
11-20-2003, 15:24
Mwell, it doesn't really go into the subject of them being gay,
During 634-53A.D... Queen Songdok... sponsored a military-religious school for selected young nobleman. Hwarangdo means "Way of the Flower of Manhood". Combat skills consisted mainly of swordsmanship and archery, both mounted and unmounted.
Nobleman?? That was a mistake. Not entirely, but Im sure the middle-class and lower-class would have made quite a notable difference. Hwarangdo wasn't a fighting art, more of a philosophy. The Flower of manhood?? I think I can see why a bunch of them went gay. Especially considering it was created by the queen, probably raised them like girls or something.
...turning into disorganized bands of dilettantes lead often by homosexuals.
But despite all this I have to say that the hwarang (at least before the broke up and went gay) were very respectable people.
Priest Wong Wang established the five moral principals: loyalty, filial piety, trustworthyness, valor and justice. Their valor and chivalry grew to be legendary, their deeds helped in the succesful unification of all areas under the Silla rule. Too bad modern Korea cant do the same thing.
Hardcore Fighter
11-20-2003, 15:32
That book really says that they were often led by honmosexuals? Weird.
People try to say ancient TKD is hwa rang do. So why doesnt TKD teach swords? Why does Kumbdo exist? Why dont they get rid of japanese rip off arts and do their true ancient nobleman art of hwa rang do?
I guess it got lost in time and no one knows what its like?
johenora
11-20-2003, 23:45
Originally posted by ninjandrew
Hwarang warriors were panty-waists. Than when they realized they were pampered upper class sissies they went gay. Honestly, as in homosexual. Most of them anyway, "Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts" talks about it.
------------
Would you be so kind to let us know who is the author of the book entitled "Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts? Also in what year
was the text written and citations to the pages you have noted.
What are the author's credentials and is there a likelihood of bias against Korean culture?
I would surely like to know his sources which I can probably find if I read the book.
This information I was never aware of because I never read the book. Do you know if the author was noted for being gay? Or is the author a man or woman?
Please let us know at the earliest about this book.
Cheers,
ninjandrew
11-21-2003, 10:54
Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts
Previously published as Asian Fighting Arts
By Donn F. Draeger and Robert W. Smith
Copyright 1969
I dunno what credentials the authors have, but one of them has been writing MA books since 1958. And the book has an impressive bibliography. I see no evidence that they are biased. The quotes I mentioned are from pg. 72.
johenora
11-21-2003, 13:26
Mr. Andrew Hutton;
Thank you for you rapid response. I agree with you. Further I served and trained with Major Donn F. Draeger in the USMC. Maj. Donn draeger is now deceased. I knew him well. He was a superb martial artist and scholar with impeccable credentials.
I do not know personally Mr. Robert W. Smith but several of my Judo acquantences such as Mr.Al Holtman spoke highly of him on numerous occasions.He served as a CIA analyst and has written widely on the Martial arts with keen research. Both are in all respects unbiased.
I am ordering a copy of said book as it appears to be informative and educational.
Kindest personal regards,
ninjandrew
11-22-2003, 11:08
A wise maneuver my friend. It's an awesome book.
johenora
11-23-2003, 06:52
Dear Andrew:
Thank you kindly. There is fine Holiday book sale going on at Barnes and Noble and BookStar and Border's Bookstore. 10 to 25 % off most books for the Holiday season. I have taken advantage of this. I am pampering myself and catching up on my reading by ordering several Judo books and the Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts.
I really like that current title. Very appropriate.
Happy Holidays,
ninjandrew
11-23-2003, 16:20
amazon.com is good to. They allow you to look in the book before you buy it. They also have alot of 'if you buy this book, you can get this one to for cheaper' deals. Good combos to.
johenora
11-24-2003, 00:34
Dear Andrew:
That sounds good. I will look into it.
Do they give discounts for large orders or to Sensei or teachers?
I think they give credit to BudoSeek.net also.
Happy Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years,
ninjandrew
11-24-2003, 09:35
Probably discount for large orders. Dunno 'bout the rest though.
Martial Arts just like homo sapien sprung forth from Africa.
"The oldest recorded complete martial art system is on the wall of a tomb at Beni Hasan, Egypt... " ~quote from Rubberband
johenora
11-24-2003, 20:59
Originally posted by ninjandrew
Probably discount for large orders. Dunno 'bout the rest though.
---------------
Dear Sir:
Thanks for your help and input. Happy Thanksgiving.
Cheers,
Hardcore Fighter
11-25-2003, 09:18
There is no actualy proof man or martial arts originated in Africa. Many evolutionists choose to believe this, but I dont.
Also just because the first earliest discovery of a recorded martial art came from Egypt doesnt mean that other people didnt do it before. What art was discovered on the Egyptian tomb anyway? What was the name if it had one?
The earliest human remains were found in Africa. I would question your motives for not agreeing with that fact but we are talking about martial arts.
I would have to take it as a pretty powerful indicator that martial arts began there since this is the FIRST place that you can find a detailed manual of a complete fighting system. Egypt is one the worlds oldest civilizations. Why are you so surprised?
The form was a grappling style mainly it also had some strikes. There was also war strategy, wepons use, etc. Mostly all of the technique in modern "greco-roman & freestyle" wrestling can be found on the wall at Beni Hasan.
Whats your beef with Africa?
corsarius
08-23-2004, 18:51
In response to the original question.....
If we take martial art as being loosely defined as:
A formal system of techniques of armed or unarmed combat used for sportive competition, self-defence, or warfare....
...as opposed to the stricter definition, which should by rights only include warfare as its purpose), then we can discount rock throwing, club-bopping, or stick-poking as martial arts.
Using this definition, the earliest archaeological evidence of martial-arts can be found in the cultures of Sumeria/Mesapotamia. This evidence is comprised of carvings of competitors engaged in wrestling, evidence of areas set aside specifically for wrestling competition, and references in ancient literature to wrestling arts (notably in the epic of Gilgamesh, in which Gilgamesh engages in a wrestling match with Enkidu). There is no evidence of a name for this system, though there is no reason to discount that such a term existed.
From the civilisations of the middle east, there is evidence (as cited by others here) of fighting arts in ancient egypt. These arts probably continued in the same cultural tradition as the competitive arts of the middle-east, and laid the foundation for formalised wrestling systems in ancient Greece. Added to the wrestling sports, the Egyptians also practiced a formalised system of competetive stick-fighting. Paintings/carvings of these arts show opponents fighting with short sticks, with a judge or referee presiding over the match. Again, no specific term is mentioned, though no doubt there was a name for these competitions and their accompanying techniques.
As mentioned by others, ancient Greece provides the first martial arts referred to by name: specifically boxing, wrestling, and pankration. These arts were sportive in nature, with boxing occupying the lowest rung of social standing amongst them. The boxing was carried out with stiff leather thongs wrapped around the hands, the wrestling allowed grabbing to any part of the body, and pankration allowed all techniques of striking or wrestling apart from biting or gouging (though the pankration of Sparta allowed this). Interestingly many observers at the time were dismissive of the value of these arts for actual combat, and Alexander the great supported stick fighting (also practiced in Greece) as being a preferably art to teach to youths, as it was more applicable in warfare, though encouraged wrestling for developing strength and skill
There is also evidence of forms in Greek martial arts - notably formalised "sword dances", though their martial purpose is questionable. It does, however, suggest a system of martial arts using weapons.
With Alexander's conquests leading him into india, there is a suggestion that the Greek and Macedonians who began colonies there taught wrestling to the locals, and that this was eventually carried through to China and so on. There is no reason to believe, however, that the Indians and their forefathers right back to the Aryans, did not already practice some form of martial arts - most likely wrestling, as it seems the most culturally widespread of the combat sports.
The arts of Rome derived greatly from Greece. Boxing was made more brutal by the addition of the cestus - a leather boxing glove studded with iron spikes and claws. A form of armed combat is hinted at by literature, with references to something called the "Armatura" - a system of fighting under arms.
References to specific martial arts in the west then die out for some time, though there are references to Nordic fighting techniques referred to by a specific/individual rune, though specifics are sketchy and unreliable.
During the high middle ages there is reference to Fecht-meisters (fencing masters) and competetive fencing competitions (fecht-schules) (apologies for incorrect terminology/spelling, I'm going from memory here) - in which competitors faught agonistic combats using the Dussak (a kind of wooden/leather covered falchion), back-swords, case-of-swords (paired swords), and staff. There are also many references to agonistic and antagonistic staff and stick fights, and there are more deaths reported on a per-combat basis using staffs than using bladed weapons.
During the 16th century a guild-like organisation existed known as the Masters Of Defence, who taught wrestling, pugilism, and armed combat with swords, staves and polearms. This was supplanted by the precursor of modern fencing, more because fencing was fashionable amongst the upper class than out of effectiveness.
As for martial arts in the east, the histories are well known by all here, so I don't need to repeat them. There is no reason to suggest, however, that martial arts in Japan came from China. There are many references to wrestling-type combat techniques in ancient Japanese mythology and literature, and so Jujutsu can be put forward as being a distant descendant of these techniques.
I also recall some references to martial arts amongst the Aztec peoples, though as with most civilisations, these arts seem to be mostly concerned with wrestling.
Okay, I'm done with my short history of martial arts now. It's very interesting though, to see that most cultures considered wrestling arts to be the most important unarmed skills, and indeed the most effective - a fact that many people today are just coming to realise (including me!)
Panktration sounded like some kind of perverted thing hahaha.
Anyway that is cool. Why is there no real pankration left? How can it just dissapear?
Also when did people start naming fighting as an art with special names?
It seems that all anyone really has to say is "I know how to fight." instead of saying "I know jeet kun do."
Corsarius' post #107 above is an excellent historical essay. Short and to the point. The definitions really set up his discussion quite well also. Personally, I would chose his definition #2 - warfare must be the purpose. So much for "sports MA." However, the definition can also be expanded to the term "Resolution," but that'a another whole discussion (has to do with splitting single cell structures and the Big Bang).
Allow me to go back to the post of Hardcore Fighter (#10). Billy Shakespear said: A Rose by any other smell is just as sweet. (Kinda what he said anyway) So, what Hardcore Fighter actually said - the part about Jeet Kun Do - could have been: every system and style of martial arts today, evolved from the very first system of martial arts. Like the rose, doesn't matter how, new color, shape, length, structure, name, the original rose is still within it and the smell of the original is still as sweet. We all study some portion of the original.
Good luck determining what the Original was.
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