Tradition vs Truth

[Jeff Burger]

"The ways of tradition lead to mediocrity, and a mind caught in tradition cannot percieve what is true"
from
Commentaries on Living
by
J.Krishnamurti
Anyone who truly read Tao of Jeet Kune Do will know who Krishnamurti was. If you dont I cannot recommend him enough.

JMB

[KenpoKev]

Please forgive my ignorance, but was not Krishnamurti commenting on the effects of the class system of India-Pakistan with that quote? I do feel it bears great consideration in the context of martial arts, but also in many other things we encounter in life.

Traditions based upon integrity, honor, respect and duty have their place and are of great value. Traditions which serve to keep people in societal bondage, are best discarded.

Thanks for providing the motivation to reread some Krishnamurti, it's been 20+ years since college.

Be well.
Kev

[Jeff Burger]

No he was not refering to Indo-Pakistan problems.

The key word in there is CAUGHT...of course we should not disregard the information accumulated over history...but it should not bind us...knowledge is always limited.

JMB

[RA Miller]

I've been giving this topic, the value of tradition, some thought over the last months.

Almost everyone on BudoSeek teaches, so I'll try from that perspective. We teach our students. We give them knowledge.

That knowledge will have one of three sources.

Our experience.
Our reason.
Or tradition.

I like experience. It helps to winnow the BS from the truth. It allows you to pass on a little of the mindset, a few of the tricks, some of the obstacles that they will face. It leads to a perspective that is unique. But realistically, how many instructors have enough hands-on experience in real violence to pass anything along? Very few.

Reason is weak. Most people don't recognize the shear chaos of balls-to-the-wall survival fighting or the effects that the chemicals dumped into your bloodstream will have. I've attended seminars by well respected "modern combat masters" and "unarmed survival experts" and left wondering what Hollywood fairytale world they lived in.

Then, tradition. Everything we teach our students will be tradition. Even the tradition of questioning our teaching ;). Are we careful to tell them what is based on experience and what on reason? Do we even know which of the techniques we were taught were actually used in battle? If a style goes through several generations of teachers w/o combat experience, don't the guesses of the many teachers come to wash away the hard-won experience of the few?

Just thinking out loud in cyberspace.
Rory
BTW,Knowledge is limited, but it is a foundation, not a chain. Ignorance is what binds us.

[Jeff Burger]

RAM....good reply...yes its the foundation...we have to start from somewhere...but you do see people chained by what they know.
Experience
Reason
Tradition
These are like 3 sides of a pyramid...each side needs the other.
We may enter from any side...maybe you start by going to a school(tradition/reason)...maybe you went to the school because of a violent situation.

Tradition...derived from others experience...their experience was also effected by reason(how to deal with their problems) and maybe they to were taught(tradition).

What we need to remember is our goal is the problem not being od style X or the purity of the art...the art should serve the practitioner.
Traditon is the teaching and the tools...not the problem...solving problems builds experience...experience may provide new tools or teachings.
Real experience / artificial experience...we can compete in various ways...it mayme artificial but its the best/safe way...I dont recommend seeking real experience...but its out there...work a club door...talk to real experiencers...police officers...dont reason with experimentation...arm chair warrior.
But I dont reallt need to say allthis you 2 KENK and RAM both gave good replies.

JMB

[Bad Karma]

"Learn from the mistakes of others; you can't possibly live long enough to make them all yourself"

- Jigaro Kano -


"Knowledge is limited; Imagination is boundless"

- Unknown to me, but good Zen quote -


Peace

[yin_yang75]

I currently work JKD and like it because it gives me a good mix and plenty of grappling. Everything my Sifu shows me he takes time to explain which arts it comes from and the person who taught it to him and why. I think a lot of what I am experiencing is due to my school and my instructors, but my JKD experience is more traditional then other disciplines I've studied.

I attended a "traditional" school, I realize now it was retail martial arts. Although they had a lineage and followed rituals, they would show anyone who walked in the door neck breaks, joint dislocations, "death blows", etc. Luckily the only real experience they had was point sparring. Although the chances of executing one of there potent moves in a dynamic situation is slim to none, they still taught the mindset that this stuff is okay.

The people I have come to respect in the martial arts don't brag about extreme things they have never used and explain the damage certain moves will cause to a body. A martial artist with an ego problem is a problem. Looking in the mirror and realizing you permanently damaged another human being over a triviality should be a major regret to any man worth his salt.

I feel the traditions should be the basics: your mind and your attitude are your best weapons, avoid the battle if possible, study martial arts because you are a martial artist, not to fill a need to be the big man. Winning is not guaranteed. Winning should not be the deciding factor in choosing to fight. Realize that when a competent and responsible martial artist must deal with a situation, training allows him meet the challenge at the level necessary.

Many traditional disciplines stress these attributes, so when they say traditional is best they have a valid point. The tradition is not just the training and the kata and the rituals; it is the mindset which is passed on to the student.

The basic premise of most martial arts is disciplined training to create superior fighting abilities and the accountability and respect for other that accompany it. That's why it used to a big deal to be taught the discipline in the first place. People who would abuse the knowledge where never taught. Now for a monthly fee some clown will show “death blows” to teenage boys who brag about road rage.

My whole point is “What is tradition?” It's not the same thing it was 100 years ago, it's not the same thing it was 25 years ago. Its going to be a different concept 5 years from now. The division should not be between traditionalist and non-traditionalist, it should be between responsible and irresponsible.

[roninja]

knowledge isn't bad, nor should it be discouraged, but knowledge alone lacks. in understanding what you have learned you have obtained something 10,000 times greater than the person who just simply knows it. the tao te ching has a section on this


joseph Dunkin

[black-gi]

Your Martial arts tradition is like your family history, it should stay with you and never forgot. HOWEVER! your martial art(tist) must evolve like everything or you will left way behind. (i.e. hand by side to hand by face) I personally like tradition!!!




Jason Bryant

Tracy KArate

[Musubi Dojo]

Interesting thread Jeff;

A question, how do you define truth?

Cheers
c

[wab25]

=====================
That knowledge will have one of three sources.

Our experience.
Our reason.
Or tradition.
=====================

It has already been pointed out that no person will have all the experience necessary in order to transmit an entire system of martial arts based on experience. Same goes for reason. The thing about tradition is that you don't have to have the experience or the reason to transmit it. You only need to respect the tradition. The tradition was started by someone who had the experience and the reason. That tradition gets passed down. Theoretically, that tradition can be passed to people who do not have the experience and they can pass it down to others, who will still be able to learn from the experience of the creator. The biggest problem of tradition, is peoples lack of respect for tradition. In this day and time, many people are taught that tradition is a bad thing, or to be immediately suspicious of tradition. They look at the tradition from their point of view, without the proper experience and reason, and see it as "not effective." So it gets changed to something that is "effective" for the person who doesn't have the same experience as the one who created it. See, the problem with tradition is not with the tradition itself. The tradition was created for a reason, a very real reason and the tradition was very effective when properly understood. The problem with tradition is that people don't respect it. Since it does not make sense to them, it is therefore invalid and forgotton or changed. In this way we lose the information that was gained through experience and we have to find it again the hard way.

Now, the problem is that there are so many people between us and the originator, that we don't really know which traditions are pure and which are not. In fact, I would bet that most tradition has been perverted somehow. But, even though the tradition was changed, it was changed to be effective in a different situation, so to change it again would be to lose that information as well.

It all seems to be circular, but it is not. The real answer then is to respect tradition. That means learn your traditions from you instructor and teach them exactly as you learned them. There may be ( read: there is ) something there that you do not understand yet, but is there for you or your students to find later, through experience. You may find a way to accomplish the same task a little easier or more effectively for you, for the situation as you understand it. Thats great, teach that too, as your variation, as your tradition. But keep everything you are taught, and teach everything your were taught exactly as you were taught. The lessons contained in these traditions were learned the hard way. What makes this training so valuable is that we have the opportunity to learn from and draw on the knowlege and experience of many, many people. Drawing on their knowlege and their experience, we can add our own experience and create something better for our students, but never take away from them what was learned by those before you, just because you don't yet understand it. Why should your students have to reinvent the wheel just because you couldn't fiquire out which way to roll it?

[black-gi]

Well.........that about sums it up. good post!




Jason
Tracy Karate

[Jeff Burger]

Wowcthis is an old thread.

I think I was extending a spilt on another thread at the time.

Define truth...you cant cause is ..on going, changing...alive.
Thats why no tradition can be 'right'.

Tradition has its place ( experience of others). But it seems few go out and get their own experience and feel confident in the success of their predecessors.

Too much of what is being called tradition is neo-tradition, adn peopel just regujitating what their teachers said / did.

Jeff

[wab25]

===================
Define truth...you cant cause is ..on going, changing...alive.
Thats why no tradition can be 'right'.

Tradition has its place ( experience of others). But it seems few go out and get their own experience and feel confident in the success of their predecessors.

Too much of what is being called tradition is neo-tradition, adn peopel just regujitating what their teachers said / did.
===================

We agree and disagree simultaneously. I agree that too few people get their own experience or even enough experience. Nothing will replace experience. I think that this may have been one of the things that started Kano on his path to fully resisting ukes. But should we ignore what Kano did? Practicing on fully resisting ukes is a tradition now. Should I abolish that tradition, because I don't see the need for it? Many Martial Artists take this route. Just like many Martial Artists throw out kata, because they don't see the need.

My point, as you put it so well, is that tradition is the experience of others. We should look long and hard at traditions before changing or doing away with them. Too many times have I learned that those silly things they had me doing at first, would become valuable much later, somewhere else.

It is hard to tell the difference between neo-tradition and tradition. I might even be bold enough to say that at this point there is only neo-tradition. However, even neo-tradition was developed to solve a certain problem, and it was successful in solving that problem. But, there is still something to be learned from it. That problem may never occur in the real world, but then, how many of the drills that we set up in training actually occur in the real world? But we can still learn from our training drills.

What I suggest is not to blindly follow tradition. I do suggest that traditions should be respected and remembered, even taught. It may be our student or a student of our student that finds the meaning of it. But, he can't do that if we take it out, because of our limited understanding. I suggest that we take the humble approach. We have become too quick to throw out things we don't understand as bad traditions. I suggest that we learn the traditions, that we add to them, take from them, change them, but in the end, keep them for the tool that they are. You may find 6 better ways to solve the same problem, but someone else may find 6 other ways, given the same tradition.

I also suggest that truth is a constant, and unchanging. The part that changes is our understanding of the truth. In martial arts, the change is the environment. We are not attacked by people on horseback carrying swords any longer, but that does not change the effectiveness of the techniques used against such. Are there techniques out there that are bogus? Yes. Are there techniques out there that look bogus, but are really effective? Yes. At first, people thought the Gracies were crazy when they went to the ground and pulled guard position, they changed their minds when they woke up. I think we should be a little slower to throw things out. Make up your own variations, but don't forget what you were taught. It may make sense a little later, with more experience. I would rather regurgitate what I learned from my instructor than to throw out valuable information based on my limited experience. This sort of goes towards picking a good instructor at a good school. Maybe what I am getting at is a little more respect for the experience of others, a little more respect for tradition.

[moksha]

reply,

MR. Burger, this is a interesting subject. I have to say that language destroys everything. Krishnamurti was a very enlightend person, but you have to understand that is techniques are only for ones like him. I recomend the BOOK OF SECRETS- osho. He speeks of the the different techniques of the VIGYAN BAHARAIV Tantra, the oldest known meditations in the world which I have been studying for about 8 years now. He gets more in depth to what techniques are good for the type of person you are. there are exactly 112. Thats why I say language destroys, because what might work for Krishnamurti, might be the exact opposite for someone else. Just a thought. "namaste"

[Luebbers]

I think you hit on the crux of what Krishnamurti was saying. What works for him, or for me, or for whoever won't work for you because we are all different. That's why he feels that organize religion won't work. That's also why his writings are so vague and esoteric.

[infinite-circle]

:bow: After reading I am thankful. I like to think about things like this also.
I would like to say that maybe tradition could be looked at as a way to the "truth", we are all making tradition now. I used to like to get all esoteric but that is mind mast..... and is the easiest way to lose sight of what is important- does that tradition you use bring you closer to the "truth"?
If forms, kata, whatnot, are "hard" like traditions sometimes appear firm and fixed, then that is only because they are to hold and contain our "truths"(read) the esscence of our "style", just like our body(of traditions) is only here to contain our spirit. and as far as I am concerned in our earthly realm the spirit cannot interact without a body...(not ment to be religious in tone :) ). :bow:
Adrian Stockman

[Luebbers]

Acting largely on Jeff's advice, I've been reading some Krishnamurti lately and I have to say with some humility that a lot of it is over my head. He can be so vague, and he xplains the reasoning behind this vagueness, and I understand that, but I still get easily lost in the text and have to read things multiple times to even begin to understand what is being said. However, the stuff that did make sense to me was very cool and (I think) very valid in both the realms of spirituality and martial arts.

I particularly like how he admonishes orgainzed religion saying that, being unique individuals, your path to enlightenment (or whatever your religion prescribes) is, by its very definition, not going to be mine. In fact, its probably going to hinder me because my mind is caught up in your method instead of finding my own. Truer words have never been spoken when it comes to martial arts. Every few weeks we get a newcomer asking what system is the best one to start training in when in fact, no one can develop a perfect system for you, except for you.

[Spartan]

.....Now, the problem is that there are so many people between us and the originator, that we don't really know which traditions are pure and which are not. In fact, I would bet that most tradition has been perverted somehow. But, even though the tradition was changed, it was changed to be effective in a different situation, so to change it again would be to lose that information as well.

It all seems to be circular, but it is not. The real answer then is to respect tradition. That means learn your traditions from you instructor and teach them exactly as you learned them. There may be ( read: there is ) something there that you do not understand yet, but is there for you or your students to find later, through experience. You may find a way to accomplish the same task a little easier or more effectively for you, for the situation as you understand it. Thats great, teach that too, as your variation, as your tradition. But keep everything you are taught, and teach everything your were taught exactly as you were taught. The lessons contained in these traditions were learned the hard way. What makes this training so valuable is that we have the opportunity to learn from and draw on the knowlege and experience of many, many people. Drawing on their knowlege and their experience, we can add our own experience and create something better for our students, but never take away from them what was learned by those before you, just because you don't yet understand it. Why should your students have to reinvent the wheel just because you couldn't fiquire out which way to roll it?

You are assuming that the 'tradition' is factually correct, scientifically accurate, while in reality it is NOT necessary so. With all due respect sir, blindly following 'tradition' is irrational. The founders of most martial arts did not possess the medical knowledge we have today. This does not necessary mean their teaching is all worthless. However, it is our responsiblity to ask questions, to seek scientific proof to substantiate, to validate the knowledge derived from 'traditions', and NOT blindly perpetuating mistakes and errors that are being passed down. Only then can we understand why we train in such way and how we can improve on it.

Of this I am certain, excellence in martial art performance lies in scientific research, not in tradition.

----------
Sincerely
Kenneth Ku

[Erik]

This is why scientists, mathematicians, and engineers prove their work.

Blindly accepting what others say (and claim is tradition) is a great way NOT to adapt to life's changes.

Tradition may lend a common background and context, but it's ultimately up to you to research (scientifically: Observe -> Theorize -> Test -> Observe, like MMA) to find out what's true or not.

One must always continue to sharpen their good sense, otherwise they're living in an incorrect, unreal reality.

[wab25]

===================
You are assuming that the 'tradition' is factually correct, scientifically accurate, while in reality it is NOT necessary so. With all due respect sir, blindly following 'tradition' is irrational. The founders of most martial arts did not possess the medical knowledge we have today. This does not necessary mean their teaching is all worthless. However, it is our responsiblity to ask questions, to seek scientific proof to substantiate, to validate the knowledge derived from 'traditions', and NOT blindly perpetuating mistakes and errors that are being passed down. Only then can we understand why we train in such way and how we can improve on it.

Of this I am certain, excellence in martial art performance lies in scientific research, not in tradition.
====================

Time and time again, I see people change and throw out techniques because they are not scientifically proven or are just otherwise ineffective. What I find interesting is that other people, use those same techniques with great skill for very decisive outcomes. The difference seems to be in the understanding of the technique.

Before the UFCs, most martial arts had ground work, but they never really used it because everyone knew it was easier to knock the guy out before he could get in. Then you don't have to use a throw, a pin and then set up your submission. One kick to the head should do it. Well, then this Gracie guy named Royce showed up, and not only went to the ground, was on the bottom. Everyone knew that being on the bottom was the weaker position. But this guy won, a LOT. Now we have started this big push towards groundwork.

Doesn't this prove the opposite of what I was saying? No. Most of the well known major martial arts have ground work. Karate, TKD, Kung fu, JJJ.... But, years ago, well before the UFCs, people scientifically proved to themselves that ground work was not important. They probably saw fights where the grappler was KOed very fast, and therefore saw little use for the ground work. So, they changed or neglected their ground work. Then this Gracie guy shows up and shows everyone what they were neglecting. The difference was the understanding of the technique. Someone up the line made changes to kata, and everyone else in the future of that system is affected by it. These other systems just about lost their ground work, many of them did.

But, these other systems don't have very good ground work. That is because someone long ago knew better. He either didn't like or didn't understand ground work, and so he changed it, and look what we are left with.

What I propose is that we not take anything out, just because we don't understand it. As I said before, add to it, in the form of variations and new techniques. But keep the old techniques as well. In the future, we may yet learn how to use them.

===============
This is why scientists, mathematicians, and engineers prove their work.

Blindly accepting what others say (and claim is tradition) is a great way NOT to adapt to life's changes.
===============
Scientists and engineers have proven that a bumble bee can not fly. It is aerodynamically impossible for a bumble bee to fly. Should the bumble bee accept life's changes and crawl along the ground now?

Heck, philosophers are still trying to decide if you really can prove anything to be true. After all, Newtonian physics is all false, yet most of the technology we have is based on it. Even your television does not scientifically work. Making a laser requires you to use many theories, each of which, if true, would discount the others. Science is great, and can help us a lot, but it has limits. There are many simple things that just don't work out on paper, but that happen anyway.

===============
Tradition may lend a common background and context, but it's ultimately up to you to research (scientifically: Observe -> Theorize -> Test -> Observe, like MMA) to find out what's true or not.
===============
I agree. This is what the Gracies have been doing, would you throw away their experience and the lessons they learned, because you don't see it? What about Okazaki, he studied with just about everyone: Judo, Jujitsu, Lua, Kung fu, karate, boxing, wrestling..... even fought challenge matches, would you throw away his experience? What about Kano's? He put together Judo and proved its validity over and over again. Because you have a hard time with ogoshi, should you remove it? When you look at a system and its founder, look also at his experience. Realize that when you change kata, or throw out something he put in, your are ignoring the work that he did, in favor of your own work. Remember what I was saying about the other martial arts having, but neglecting ground work? That happened because people without the masters experience changed things for the rest of us. They even thought they were improving the system.

============
One must always continue to sharpen their good sense, otherwise they're living in an incorrect, unreal reality.
============
Quite true. And when your experience rivals Kano, Okazaki, Gracie, Meada and the like, then you can create a system with the "right" techniques to teach people. But until you have experience on the same level of one of these guys, I think you are fooling yourself, when you try to improve or fix something that you don't understand.

On a side note, MMA/NHB is not the ultimate test for a martial art. Just because I lose for kneeing someone in the back of the head or spine, does not mean that that technique useless, especially if we are talking about being effective on the street.

[Spartan]

1. Bumble bees fly by generating vortex. They cannot glide, however. It is a myth that suggests science has somehow proven that bees cannot fly, perpetuated by some anti-science crazies.

2. Newtonian physics is NOT all false. In fact, it governs our daily lives, as well as the heavanly objects, as we speak. It is absurd to assert otherwise. Where it is inadequate is at the quantum level. Hence we have quantum physics.

3. TV does work scientifically. No, it does not work by magic, unless you are from some Papua New Guinea tribes.

4. May be some crazy philosophers don't have a clue what truth is, but the rest of us, reasonable, mature adults, KNOW what truth is and is not. Your philosophers may have problem trying to prove that the moon is not made of blue cheese is a truth, but the rest of us KNOW it is a truth that the moon is not made of blue cheese.

5. Your elaboration about the evolution of strategies used by competitors in the UFC has nothing what so ever to do with taking a scientific approach to train for martial arts. It neither supports nor reject the scientific approach to MA training.

6. I suggest that you check out Royce Gracie's book titled Super Fit. It is about scientific MA training.

7. You are correct that when people who are not well equipped with the knowledge, make changes to a MA, the result is not necessary an improvment. In principle, that is true. However, to state that unless "your experience rivals Kano, Okazaki, Gracie, Meada and the like", then you have no business making improvement, that is nothing more than your subjective opinion. It is no more valid than to suggest that no one should attempt to improve on our scientific knowledge base, unless and until he or she reaches the level of genius such as Da Vincci, Galileo, Newton, Einstein etc. It that was the case, the world would still be in the Dark Ages. Luckily, humanity didn't wait for genius to deliver our salvation.

8. It's a free world. One is free to assume the museum curator role of a particular martial art and strikes to preserve every bid of it, as if it is an antiquity or sacred relics, to be worshipped. The result will be stasis. You would still be doing horse stance while your competitors use machine to develope their abductors.

9. If you consider martial arts as skill sets, then you will strive to evaluate, analyze, modify, refine, improve on the skill sets and knowledge. You will not be bound by the constrains of 'traditional' practices, nor by the limitations inherited in each MA style. Your mind is set free.


10. When you attempt to innovate, there is no guaranty of success. That is the nature of things. But we must TRY. That is how civilization advances.


----------
Kenneth Ku

[wab25]

===============
1. Bumble bees fly by generating vortex. They cannot glide, however. It is a myth that suggests science has somehow proven that bees cannot fly, perpetuated by some anti-science crazies.

2. Newtonian physics is NOT all false. In fact, it governs our daily lives, as well as the heavanly objects, as we speak. It is absurd to assert otherwise. Where it is inadequate is at the quantum level. Hence we have quantum physics.

3. TV does work scientifically. No, it does not work by magic, unless you are from some Papua New Guinea tribes.
================

I guess I have to read up on bumble bees. When taking physics in college, years ago, they did not know how bumble bees flew. I'll look it up.

Newtonian physics is false. It does not govern our lives, it approximates our lives. Some things it gets more right than other things. They are also finding that much of quantum physics is also not exact and more of an approximation than a truth.

And yes the TV does work scientifically. There is no magic in it. Only a set of theories put into implementation. Some of those theories disprove others that are also used. Some of the theories used have been proven false.

================
7. You are correct that when people who are not well equipped with the knowledge, make changes to a MA, the result is not necessary an improvment. In principle, that is true. However, to state that unless "your experience rivals Kano, Okazaki, Gracie, Meada and the like", then you have no business making improvement, that is nothing more than your subjective opinion. It is no more valid than to suggest that no one should attempt to improve on our scientific knowledge base, unless and until he or she reaches the level of genius such as Da Vincci, Galileo, Newton, Einstein etc. It that was the case, the world would still be in the Dark Ages. Luckily, humanity didn't wait for genius to deliver our salvation.
===================
There is a reason why Da Vincci Galileo, Newton, Einstein etc are famous. That reason is because humanity actually was waiting around for them to make their discoveries before progressing. Thats why it had not progressed past their discoveries before they had the chance to make them.

Furthermore, I said you need their experience, not their genius. Each one of these men ( and most of the original masters of the martial arts ) had a lot of experience both studying martial arts in a dojo and applying martial arts in the street or battlefield. Would you accept Bohanian physics, developed by yours truely, after 4 years of college, with only a handful of physics semesters and no experimental data to back it up? So why accept a change to kata made by someone with 4 years of studying martial arts once or twice a week, by someone who has never been in a fight? How does their knowlege and experience surpass say Kano's?

===============
9. If you consider martial arts as skill sets, then you will strive to evaluate, analyze, modify, refine, improve on the skill sets and knowledge.
===============
I agree completely.

===============
You will not be bound by the constrains of 'traditional' practices, nor by the limitations inherited in each MA style. Your mind is set free.
===============
By not preserving the traditional practices, you are losing pieces. Too many people lose important pieces because they don't understand them, not because the piece is any less important. By changing or removing a kata, you are removing a skill, thus limiting, your style. That is what my UFC bit was about. Many martial arts that used to contain ground work and takedowns no longer do, all because someone had the wisdom to deem them unnecessary or ineffective. Unfortunately, these skills are like gravity, they work, even if you don't believe in them. Setting your mind free is to open your mind to all possibilities, yes even the possibility that some kata kept around for 100 years might have something to teach me, eventually. I am all for finding new and better ways to do things. I am all for adding new variations and new moves. But I also think we should keep the old around too. Why waste what a genius spent his lifetime trying to find?

[Spartan]

...Newtonian physics is false. It does not govern our lives, it approximates our lives....."

May be if you live on the planet Krypton.

"..... only if velocities are comparable to that of light, or gravitational fields are much larger than those encountered on the Earth, do the Relativity theory and Newton's theories differ in their predictions. Under most conditions Newton's three laws and his theory of gravitation are adequate......" http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/history/einstein.html

On this planet, Newton's laws still govern our lives.


..There is a reason why Da Vincci Galileo, Newton, Einstein etc are famous. That reason is because humanity actually was waiting around for them to make their discoveries before progressing....

They are famous for they each single handedly advanced humanity's understanding of our physical world. Their work represented milestones of discovery.

Humanity definitely did not wait around for them before progressing. Our understanding of the universe and the physical world was advanced by these giants. Other aspects of humanity were progressing along just fine.


...So why accept a change to kata made by someone with 4 years of studying martial arts once or twice a week, by someone who has never been in a fight? How does their knowlege and experience surpass say Kano's?...

The idiots you cited as example cannot come up with anything useful. That is so obvious that it is not even worth pointing out.

Not all of us are as incompetent as you may presume. Moreover, it is rather foodhardily to presume that the MA founders were infallible, that their work is to be accepted as God's gift to humanity.



...By not preserving the traditional practices, you are losing pieces. Too many people lose important pieces because they don't understand them, not because the piece is any less important. By changing or removing a kata, you are removing a skill, thus limiting, your style......Why waste what a genius spent his lifetime trying to find?..

The MA founders were surely NOT infallible. Obviously, those people at their times, didn't know as much about the human body and physiology as we do today. Much of what they knew about the human body and medicine, was wrong. To accept every bit of their work or words without question, is being irresponsible. Obviously you have to ask intelligent questions. (One would think that there is no need to point this out.) You have to employ our knowledge in medicine, physiology, kinesiology etc.

If you want to take the museum curator approach to preserve martial art as a cultural relic, then your art will not grow.

By the way, tossing out pieces of Kata is not what improving on MA all about. The value of kata is another topic. There are people who believe there is gem to be had in kata while there are MA (MuayThai, Systema, JKD etc) that do away with kata. Coincidentally, all three examples are MA that focus solely on no-nonsense combat application of MA. Moreover, these 3 MA are not bound by the constrains of traditions, protocol. They are constantly evolving, adapting. Techiques that do not work in combat/the ring, are quickly tossed. New training methods are quickly evaluated, tested and either rejected or adopted. 3 months of training in these arts, you are capable of defending yourself. 3 months of training in Tradition Martial Arts, you haven't made it through the front door, so to speak.

The failure to apply scientific research results in students taking decades of practice to master something they could have mastered in months.

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Kenneth Ku