learning how to use a katana

[Chekhov113]

Hey,
I am lookign into buying a katana. I have two years of tai kwan do experience but my dojo never went into how to use a sword. If i wanted to teach myself how to use a katana are there any books or movies someone could reccomend? or is it even a good idea to teach yourself how to use a katana? thanks

[sean_stonehart]

Suggestion... find a good iaido school ( or something like it ) & study there. Videos & books are reference only with a background in the field (IMHO)

[Chekhov113]

is it even advisable to own a katana and use it without training? i mean how much of a danger is it?

[Musubi Dojo]

I don't have a lot of sword training, but 3 feet of razor sharp steel whirling throught he air is pretty dangerous to you or anyone else in the room. You can also slice your thumb off drawing the blade if you're not careful. (So I'm told) If you dont't swing the blade correctly you bury it in your own leg.

Try a wooden bokken, you pick them up at MA Supplier and it's a lot more difficult to cut off body parts with. You can still crack someone's skull if you're not carefull though.

Of course instruction is needed to really understand or use the sword properly just as in any martial art.

Cheers
Chris

[Bugeisha]

I would second the bokken suggestion, at least until you have some well-qualified instruction. I've seen what can happen when an untrained person does as little as make a mistake drawing a sword. Cleaning blood off the walls and floor is not my idea of a good evening. Even most Iaido schools I've seen use a practice sword long before live steel. It's not worth the risk, since there's few real benefits to live steel.
Although it's probably not a good idea to get the entirety of your instruction from a book, there are some interesting resources. In particular "Bokken, the Art of the Japanese Sword" by Dave Lowry is an excellent source for some traditional kenjutsu. It's usually about $14.00 in paperback. The ISBN is 089751047, to give you an easy time finding it. Or just check online, of course.
Anyway, good luck!

[De_Franza]

Is it dangerous? Think of it this way, the katana has hundreds of years of design behind it to make it a deadly weapon.

So yes, it's a dangerous thing. :-) Go with a bokken and most importantly, a teacher. Aside from the safety issue, if you eventually take formal lessons after training solo with no idea what you're doing, you'll have months or years of bad habit to re-train, which will set you back.

[Jeff C.]

Chekhov113, first, please sign your posts with your real name per the forum rules you agreed to when you signed up. Welcome to the board!

Your comment, "is it even advisable to own a katana and use it without training?"

Katanas are ONLY for training. If you are not training with it, what are you "using" it for? Trimming the hedges? Filleting fish? ;-)

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Musubi Dojo]

>Filleting fish? ;-)

Sword fish?

Sorry, thats really bad but I couldn't resist.....

[Jay Bell]

I pretty much agree with everyone....get a bokken, find a legitemate kenjutsu/iaido school and have at it.

Would you buy a gun and guess how to use it?

As far as being dangerous...yes, it's horribly dangerous. I have a scar on my thumb after years of kenjutsu training because I got sloppy during batto work. Get a instructor in Japanese swordsmanship and be safe.

[wab25]

I will also suggest the bokken. They are much safer, especially for someone untrained. The part that many people miss is that a bokken is just as deadly as a katana once you are trained with it. In fact, many of the famous Japanese sword masters used bokkens in their duels to the death. There were a few reasons for this. First, they practiced with the bokken much more than with the katana, so they were more familiar with its movement. Also, if you look at the construction of the katana, the handle is held onto the tang by a single wooden peg. If that peg was weakened in any way, the handle would slip off the tang, leaving you in a very bad position, you standing there with a small peice of wood in your hand and your blade 50 feet away. Japan has a very humid climate in many parts, which is not so good for keeping that wooden peg in good condition. The bokken is a single piece, and really cannot come apart. Another thing to remember is that the sword fights you see in the movies are nothing like the real sword fights. They usually consisted of two or fewer swings of the sword. If your first swing hits, you win. If it misses, your oponets first swing kills you. Lastly, when you factor in the speed at which a master can swing a sword, it really doesn't matter if it is steel or wood that hits you. No, a bokken will not cut your head off cleanly. But, it will shatter all the vertibre in your neck, severly damaging your spinal cord and possibly rupture the main artery to your brain, you know the one you check their pulse with. As if thats not enough, you will probably have severe neck pain the rest of your life, as those neck muscles will probably never uncramp. ;) ( this information can be found in the before mentioned book "Bokken, the Art of the Japanese Sword")

Anyway, go with the bokken. It is safer to train with and also more deadly than most people realize, once you are trained.

Another thing to consider, getting a katana is also much harder than most people think. They cost a lot of money, thousands of dollars. Those dragon headed, Highlander "katanas" you see for $100 are only useful to hang on your wall. There is a lot more to making a katana than getting a 3 foot long piece of stainless steel and sharpening it.

[Daniel-san]

I agree with everything that has been said save one comment. Stainless steel swords do not look good on a wall. They look "good" in the store, which is where they should stay. Dangerous and tacky=a complete waste of money. A good bokken looks much more elegant on a wall than an ugly, albeit metal sword.


Sorry about bringing this to the top. I might be a little like Kimpatsu, with his do-gi argument, about this subject. Bear with me because I've just realized this.

[SteyrAUG]

When I was a brand newbie shodan way back int eh early 1980s every black belt regardless of style had to own a Samurai Sword. Some were content to merely put it on a waill or rack and some with a little too much exposure to Toshiro Mifune films felt compelled to take them out int he driveway and try and swing them around in a nunchaku like fashion that would have made Quinton Tarantino marvel at their superlative technique.

So if that is all you are looking for by all means go ahead. Just remember that sometimes Beavis gets hurt when he fools around with sharp, metal pointy things. But for them that didn't matter, all they really wanted was something they could pose with in the mirror to go along with their patented Bruce Lee poses.

But if real skill with a sword is what you seek then you are gonna need some help (books and videos won't cut it) and that means instruction from someone with experience. I can always tell when someone has learned from a book or video (and I can sometimes even name the source they used specifically depending upon the error) because one or several things will always be wrong. Errors in timing, rhythm, blance and "feel" are as common as errors in application. People who learn from books and videos tend to whack and hack rather than cut or slice with a sword. Learning proficiency with a sword is difficult enough with qualified instruction.

So you need to decide what you want and go from there.

[Ice-cut]

I will also suggest the bokken. They are much safer, especially for someone untrained. The part that many people miss is that a bokken is just as deadly as a katana once you are trained with it. In fact, many of the famous Japanese sword masters used bokkens in their duels to the death. There were a few reasons for this. First, they practiced with the bokken much more than with the katana, so they were more familiar with its movement. Also, if you look at the construction of the katana, the handle is held onto the tang by a single wooden peg. If that peg was weakened in any way, the handle would slip off the tang, leaving you in a very bad position, you standing there with a small peice of wood in your hand and your blade 50 feet away. Japan has a very humid climate in many parts, which is not so good for keeping that wooden peg in good condition. The bokken is a single piece, and really cannot come apart. Another thing to remember is that the sword fights you see in the movies are nothing like the real sword fights. They usually consisted of two or fewer swings of the sword. If your first swing hits, you win. If it misses, your oponets first swing kills you. Lastly, when you factor in the speed at which a master can swing a sword, it really doesn't matter if it is steel or wood that hits you. No, a bokken will not cut your head off cleanly. But, it will shatter all the vertibre in your neck, severly damaging your spinal cord and possibly rupture the main artery to your brain, you know the one you check their pulse with. As if thats not enough, you will probably have severe neck pain the rest of your life, as those neck muscles will probably never uncramp. ;) ( this information can be found in the before mentioned book "Bokken, the Art of the Japanese Sword")

Anyway, go with the bokken. It is safer to train with and also more deadly than most people realize, once you are trained.

Another thing to consider, getting a katana is also much harder than most people think. They cost a lot of money, thousands of dollars. Those dragon headed, Highlander "katanas" you see for $100 are only useful to hang on your wall. There is a lot more to making a katana than getting a 3 foot long piece of stainless steel and sharpening it.

Are you really sure about the part were you say there is a possibility that the katana might go to two pices by the blade just slipping away from the handle?
Are you really sure?And when you are could you double check it?Don't do it for me do it for you'r selfe please :wink2:


Max

[SteyrAUG]

Another thing to consider, getting a katana is also much harder than most people think. They cost a lot of money, thousands of dollars. Those dragon headed, Highlander "katanas" you see for $100 are only useful to hang on your wall. There is a lot more to making a katana than getting a 3 foot long piece of stainless steel and sharpening it.

While true of genuine Nihon To our Kendo Kai has great success with Hanwei blades which are made in more or less the traditional manner and they easily perform all the cutting tests of traditional Iaido.

I would rate them higher in quality than the Shin Gunto (WWII blades) that many people choose for drawing swords and are far more economical to obtain these days (the price of Shin Guntos have gone from about $150 to well over $1,000 for some reason I can't explain) and you don't have to get the furniture rebuilt.

You can get a Hanwei blade for around $250 and up depending upon style and how the blade is made. If anyone wants one our association is a distributor for them (as well as nearly every other sword manufacturer - but in my opinion they are the best).

[Paul B]

First of all,please,please,please, buy a bokken and find a teacher! You wouldn't try to fly a plane from reading books and watching video, would you? There is a process to go through. For your safety and others, it would be for the best. I just read on a thread about a guy hacking half his foot,due to improper sword handling, so the danger is very real!!

Second,Mr. Meadows, have you heard anything about Cold Steel's sword line?Any info would be appreciated.

Best Regards,

Paul Baladen

[StanLee]

Well there's not much that I can say. Everyone else has already said it.

Find a good legit teacher and use a bokken.

[Cliff Hargrave]

When I was a brand newbie shodan way back int eh early 1980s every black belt regardless of style had to own a Samurai Sword.



That is NOT true.......................


I was a green belt when I bought mine, not a black belt. It was cool too.

:D

[Bugeisha]

I firmly resisted the impulse to buy a sword- I had decided that it wouldn't make sense for me to own a weapon that I have no training in. I was successful in this for years, until last summer. A family member bought me a display 'katana' as a birthday present ('cause I'm into "that martial arts stuff").

*******.

[Bugeisha]

Oops. Didn't realize that the word ******* wasn't forum-friendly. My apologies :wink2:

[SteyrAUG]

First of all,please,please,please, buy a bokken and find a teacher! You wouldn't try to fly a plane from reading books and watching video, would you? There is a process to go through. For your safety and others, it would be for the best. I just read on a thread about a guy hacking half his foot,due to improper sword handling, so the danger is very real!!

Second,Mr. Meadows, have you heard anything about Cold Steel's sword line?Any info would be appreciated.

Best Regards,

Paul Baladen


We have a few students who use them. IIRC they had to get the furniture replaced for proper balance.

More than a few people make quality blades (something better than 440 stainless) but for some reason people have a hard time making handles of the correct length that properly balance the sword. With Fred Lohman being one of the few places to make correct, quality furniture it can quickly become quite an investment to get your sword ready for use.

Of everything I've used from genuine nihon to to rebuilt shin guntos on down I have come to appreciate the Hanweis the most. I tend to stay away from the more expensive ornate models and just get the basic models because they are not going on the wall. The general consensus of our dojo have deemed the practical and practical plus the be the best models.

[Paul B]

Thank you very much for your reply, Mr. Meadows!! I have the WS katana, but I have not used it for anything other than Iai,but I thought it could get the job done if I wanted to move on to Batto or Tameshigiri, I was also looking for another, not too expensive, cutting sword, so thanks in helping me make my decision!!Thanks again! Oh,yeah,your dead on about the furniture!!

Best Regards,

Paul Bladen

[SteyrAUG]

Thank you very much for your reply, Mr. Meadows!! I have the WS katana, but I have not used it for anything other than Iai,but I thought it could get the job done if I wanted to move on to Batto or Tameshigiri, I was also looking for another, not too expensive, cutting sword, so thanks in helping me make my decision!!Thanks again! Oh,yeah,your dead on about the furniture!!

Best Regards,

Paul Bladen

We have used them for the following with 100% satisfactory results:

Hanging Paper cuts
Bamboo stalk (poted - not live) 3-4" diameter
Straw bales (rolled straw mats)

We have unofficially done the following:

I think it was a beef leg quater (penetrated about 6" of meat with a 1/2 penetration of the bone).

A 2" beef bone completely halved.

A rib section (flank?) hung and completely sliced open bottom 3/4 (approx. 18" cut).

One of our seniors is a butcher and we got some test specimines for a holiday cookout. ;)

No nicks or damage to blades, no damage to handle or loosening of furniture. When cleaned swords we capable of hanging paper cuts after approx. 20 various cuts of meat and bone.

Needless to say I was sold.

[Paul B]

:laugh: How fun was that!! I hope somebody got that on video for posterity!!

Well I have to say, "sold", I am looking forward to my purchase here in a couple weeks, right now I'm waiting for some "omote" from my old Dojo, so hopefully their arrivals will coincide and I'll get to have some fun and disappointment right away!!Thanks again!

Best Regards,

Paul Bladen

[StanLee]

The shinkens from www.ninecircles.co.uk are also quite good.

My sensei recently upgraded from his shin gunto to the top of their range sword.

He let me have a few "swings" :D and I must say that the balance is quite good. Nice heafty blade.

However I am comparing that with my own chen bushido katana with a different tsuba.

[Benson]

Is there a web site or sites for the sword manufacturers being recommended?

[SteyrAUG]

Is there a web site or sites for the sword manufacturers being recommended?


http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=20205162

[Benson]

Richard,

I believe in an earlier post you said your association was a distributor for several sword manufacturers. Does your association have a link as well?

Also I am ignorant of katanas.
What are the differnces between the following...?

Hanwei (is this a brand?)

nihon

shin gato?

Thanks.

Blaine

[SteyrAUG]

Richard,

I believe in an earlier post you said your association was a distributor for several sword manufacturers. Does your association have a link as well?

Also I am ignorant of katanas.
What are the differnces between the following...?

Our association is non profit and non commercial oriented so it has no website as such. However I work with a local LE/military supplier that has a gunbroker account. The same swords I mentioned previously are the ones sold on that gunbroker account linked above.

Hanwei (is this a brand?) - Yes, they are the company for custom blade maker Paul Chen.

nihon - Means Japan in Japanese. What most Americans call a "samurai sword" collectors call a "Nihon To" or "Japanese Sword" and the term refers to a pre Meiji (pre1876) blade. All those made after the Meiji Restoration are not considered "true" Nihon To by most collectors.

shin gato? - Shin Gunto is a military blade made circa 1937. These were mostly produced byt he same factories that made bayonets or mass produced by unskilled (when compared to your average pre Meiji smith) smiths. High quality military blades do exist but are the exception to the rule.

In the 70s and 80s Shin Guntos were relatively cheap as most "collectors" wouldn't touch them. So martial artists (especially Iaido practioneers) would buy them and have the furniture (usually broken and well worn) replaced and use them as "drawing blades." This way they had a Japanese made sword that did balance well (as oppossed to the 440 stainless stuff the US market produced) that wasn't extremely valuable so they could train without fear of damaging it.

I remember every time I went to a Kendo tournament there was a old Japanese guy with a table of stuff for sale. Next to the table was an actual metal garbage can with about 30 shin guntos in it and it had a sign on it "Your Pick $25.00." I wish I had bought them all.

Nowadays with Shin Guntos gaining value as WWII collectables and being desired by sword collectors who are far less discriminating that those of 25 years ago Shin Guntos can be seen selling for $250 on average and I've seen then in the $1,000s of dollars by people who don't have a clue.

[ninja_mike]

if someone couldnot get a bokken but wanted to train you could still use a katana just put padding on the vital spots and dont go swinging it around crazy go slow then when you have the hang of it speed up a bit and so on and so on:karate: :karate: :karate: :karate:

[Musubi Dojo]

if someone couldnot get a bokken but wanted to train you could still use a katana just put padding on the vital spots and dont go swinging it around crazy go slow then when you have the hang of it speed up a bit and so on and so on:karate: :karate: :karate: :karate:

Hi Mike;

That's some really terrible advice and this thread is 3 years old.

Other than that, Welcome to Budoseek!

c

[Webmaster]

Hi Mike;

That's some really terrible advice and this thread is 3 years old.

Other than that, Welcome to Budoseek!

c
Agreed. Playing with a sword is dangerous, and any martial art should be learned from a competent instructor, particularly ones that involve sharp objects.

[TEA]

I have two years of tai kwan do experience but my dojo never went into how to use a sword.

In addition to agreeing with everyone's recommendations to get a bokken and proper instruction, I also feel compelled to point out that the kwon in Tae Kwon Do is spelled with an "o," not an "a."

[David Craik]

if someone couldnot get a bokken but wanted to train you could still use a katana just put padding on the vital spots and dont go swinging it around crazy go slow then when you have the hang of it speed up a bit and so on and so on

That is without a doubt the most ridiculous thing I've heard all day. And I hear some pretty ridiculous things.

[Maro]

Definitely get instruction. It's not a toy.

[evvad]

if someone couldnot get a bokken but wanted to train you could still use a katana just put padding on ...

Use and broom handle.

[wab25]

if someone couldnot get a bokken but wanted to train you could still use a katana just put padding on the vital spots and dont go swinging it around crazy go slow then when you have the hang of it speed up a bit and so on and so on:karate: :karate: :karate: :karate:
You really need to learn to respect the sharpness of the blade. I have a medievil hand and a half broadsword. It is "unsharpened," which means no edge was put on it, but some areas of it are sharp, while others are very blunt. I had a full size bath towel wrapped around the blade, and I went to pick it up, assuming the towel would protect my hand. Just the act of picking it up, caused the blade to cut through two layers of towel and my hand. If just picking up an "unsharpened" blade, in a towel will cut you, you may as well use wet tissue as your padding when using a katana. A cheap bokken can be had for around $10 in most cutlery shops. And I HIGHLY recommend finding a qualified instructor.

[Bugeisha]

if someone couldnot get a bokken but wanted to train you could still use a katana just put padding on the vital spots and dont go swinging it around crazy go slow then when you have the hang of it speed up a bit and so on and so on:karate: :karate: :karate: :karate:

That might be the worst idea anyone has ever had, ever.


Edit: In the history of the world.

Edit again: That said, if you do do this, the sadistic in me really wants to ask for a video of the results.

[David Craik]

Quite frankly, I think that the idea that just waving around an implement that many people spend a lifetime trying to master constitutes some sort of 'training' is as insulting to practicioners of Japanese sword arts as it is ludicrous. Noone ever suggests that by putting on dogi and imitating a Chuck Norris movie that one is training in karate. Nobody puts on a Tai Chi uniform, starts kicking and punching, and seriously thinks they are practicing Kung Fu.

Yet many martial artists consider the sword some sort of a prop, a toy to be played with between practicing Tae Kwon Do or Karate. There is no similarity in technique, strategy, or stance whatsoever between many sword arts and gendai arts. One would no more discover good technique by swinging a sword around than one could happen across a cure for cancer by mixing a bunch of random crap up in a test tube. And without a connection to the past or underlying philosophy, I don't see any point in it. It is as confusing to me as what the "vital spots" are in Mike's post.

Sorry everyone, I think that's enough of a rant for one post. I know, I know, he's 17...

[Maro]

I agree David, I'm coming up on 4 years training and I'm still on the foothills of understanding. Why someone like that goon from Fight Science thinks waving a Shinken is something extra is beyond me.

If I want to learn an open hand style, I join a school - I don't teach myself and claim skill in it....

[mdamignani]

I would buy a bokken, if you can't find one use a 3 foot stick. I use a bokken and I spent $1 to buy a plastic tube that is used in golf bags, this can be used to simulate drawing the bokken from a scabard so you can get a feel for the real thing.
Matthew Damignani

[TonyU]

I wouldn't suggest buying anything.
First get proper instruction then buy what the instructor suggests. But then that goes with any weapon art.

[David Craik]

Yes, the sori of sticks is exactly the same as a katana, though tsukekomi is a little difficult. And the feel of drawing a bokuto from a golf bag tube is precisely what one would expect during nukitsuke.

[Maro]

Which is why Golf is so popular in Japan.

[jjaje]

I remember a young gentleman on swordforum that HAD to have a katana. He spent like $300 for a Hanwei sword and on the first day, swinging it in the living room, hit the ceiling fan and put a notch in the blade and damaged the tip.

I've always heard to get instruction and practice, then eventually, withhelp from your instructor, you become educated enough to know what type, size and weight blade to get for your particular build and style.

[Bugeisha]

Quite frankly, I think that the idea that just waving around an implement that many people spend a lifetime trying to master constitutes some sort of 'training' is as insulting to practicioners of Japanese sword arts as it is ludicrous. Noone ever suggests that by putting on dogi and imitating a Chuck Norris movie that one is training in karate. Nobody puts on a Tai Chi uniform, starts kicking and punching, and seriously thinks they are practicing Kung Fu.

Yet many martial artists consider the sword some sort of a prop, a toy to be played with between practicing Tae Kwon Do or Karate. There is no similarity in technique, strategy, or stance whatsoever between many sword arts and gendai arts. One would no more discover good technique by swinging a sword around than one could happen across a cure for cancer by mixing a bunch of random crap up in a test tube. And without a connection to the past or underlying philosophy, I don't see any point in it. It is as confusing to me as what the "vital spots" are in Mike's post.

Sorry everyone, I think that's enough of a rant for one post. I know, I know, he's 17...

I agree completely. I hate it when practicioners of empty-handed arts assume that they must also know weapons automatically. The two are largely unrelated in most cases, and it's embarrassing that these people don't even realize how stupid they look in the pictures they take of themselves holding a sword incorrectly in a karate stance.

[Dilligf]

I agree completely. I hate it when practicioners of empty-handed arts assume that they must also know weapons automatically. The two are largely unrelated in most cases, and it's embarrassing that these people don't even realize how stupid they look in the pictures they take of themselves holding a sword incorrectly in a karate stance.

Oh, how much i agree with you! Nothing gets me going more than when I see TKD guys holding katana like thye are holding a stick or a bat.