Wtf Forms Flawed?

[sidekick]

For those that practice the Taeguek Forms. Have you found any movements that you feel are not correct?



Respectfully
Mike Dunn

[kodanjaclay]

Mike,

All forms have flaws. They are man made.

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mike:

I would not be surprised at all to find that there are flaws. Putting together a hyung is not just a matter of stringing a series of moves together in a visually pleasing array. Some of the elements that I have found in formulating a hyung include the following.

1.) The hyung will have an overall theme and the movements will consistently represent aspects of that theme to provide for its fullest interpretation.

2.) A single movement, or method teased from the overall form will have a concussive (striking or kicking), a manipulative (lock, pin, choke or throw) and a weapon application.

3.) The sum of the form will represent balance and harmony. For instance. If most of the form is executed with the hands the footwork will have an especially unique albeit simple aspect to it. For instance the kata Naifanchi is executed mostly with the hands, but the sidewards movement of the legs is especially simple but unique.

4.) The hyung must provide a point from which further investigation is possible. This is the reason Chinese arts are more thematic rather than comprehensive catalogs of techniques. Westerners need things concrete and accomplished in neat increments of time. Look how we love our rank/test systems! :D
The Chinese specifically and Orientals in general characteristically take the longer view of development, something that often annoys and impresses we Westerners in turn. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[sidekick]

Mr. Clay, true they are man made, but when a flaw is obvious, should it not be corrected? Example: Back to attacker, form dictates that you turn to your right 180 degrees to counter a punch attack. Would you (a) do a right hand outside middle block or (b) an inside right middle block?

Bruce, thanks for the input. Understand the complexities of putting a form together, but the above example is really very basic in concept. With the understanding, at least mine, that the primary focus of forms is to practice combative conditions and techniques. Why then would anyone knowingly allow a questionable or clearly wrong movement to be conditioned into the practicioner?

Appriciate the point counterpoint gentlemen.

Respectfully
Mike Dunn

[Jerusalem]

When I learned the taeguk forms, I did have particular problems with the movements that contridicted the bodies motion. ex:Turn counter-clockwise to your left and execute a left-arm, inward middle block. These types of motions just don't "feel right" to me. I learn them and when instructed, I teach them. But only because it's part of the art and not because I think they are good techniques.
That said, I'm sure you could find a use for any technique, no matter how it "feels".

[glad2bhere]

Mike, a couple of possibilities.

Just because YOU don't have a weapon does not mean the person attacking you does not have a weapon and the most common were polearms often intended to snare and entrap rather than strike or stab. At any rate the use of turning as in the turning kick and spinning kick may have evolved as a response to being faced with such a situation. The response would be to turn away from the weapon and essentially role up the length of the shaft to deal with the person at close quarters.

Another possibility is not always that you are dealing with a new attacker but are continuing to deal with the person you originally faced and the turning away represents a throw incoporating centrifugal force.

A final possibility is that the person originally designing the form may have required students to turn in a counter-intuitive way not so much because it was a good SD move but because the turn required especially sound balance and concentration where the more intuitive move demanded less.

I don't know that any of this is accurate as I am not familiar with the TKD/TSD hyung. However, researching forms for deeper understanding of Hapkido material has encouraged me not to always take what I see at face value. As Freud said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar". (and sometimes its not.) FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[kodanjaclay]

Mike,

analyze what you are doing. how many throws begin that very way? Just because something is illustrated with a specific technique does not mean that it is carved in stone. Should we create forms, or sets, with each conceivable variation? Let's take Mr. Sims.... we dissect his knowledge, and this is but one man mind you, and we decide to create a form encompassing everything he knows. We would never finish the set. Not to mention, and based on Mr. Sims professional background, I'm sure he is more qualified to discuss the mind than I, but if I tell you how to spell a word, instead of having you look it up... will you remember it? Its proven that if we work, we respond and our mind learns. Mr. Sims, can you take this thought a little further?

[kodanjaclay]

Incidentally... is that Mr? or are you a sabum?

[glad2bhere]

Dear Frank:

You raise a an interesting, and I think, pretty accurate simile'. Mike was asking about a particular sequence and its functionality, but my guess is that at its base, we would always come back to something closer to the thought that you raised. Effectively, what we would be discussing is how one passes information--- in this case the essence of a particular MA from one generation to the next among people who are not ignorant but may be illiterate.

I am guessing that we folks of modern day with our multi-media lifestyles and mandated educational system probably have a hard time appreciating this. I think people are still amazed to learn that personalities such as Takeda Sokaku and Choi Yong Sul were illiterate in the 20th century yet still managed in most cases to tranmit the essence of their art, political and organizational variances not withstanding.

So, for a moment, lets pretend that we are back 200 years and do not have the luxury of writing things down. This isn't wholly accurate because there are literate people and we all know that in some Japanese and Chinese traditions scrolls were handed down---- but work with me for a second. :-) Remember--- as I throw these things out the goal is not so much to teach the present generation( who is illiterate) but to make sure that the essence of the art or material I am teaching them is captured such that THEY will be able to pass it accurately to THEIR "next generation".

So here I have a body of information that I think is worthy of passing along. Certainly I need to be able to organize the information on a physical basis--- how does one execute the material---- but I also need to organize it in terms of goals and intent. In this way I have to include some code that guides the use and application of my material. The method of transmission needs to cover as much as I can squeeze into each bit I transmit, and it also needs to provide a sound "springboard" from which one can always aspire to shoot to higher levels of understanding.
I decide to use a form.

As I organize the form I first align it with the values or philosophy of my culture to make sure that there is an ethos. Little bits like a certain gesture or pose reflect a moral underpinning or belief system just to remind the students to look to these systems for guidance in using my material.

The easy part seems to be chaining physical movements together but I must select movements that represent not just WHAT I do but HOW I do it. I must select moves that have the greatest number of applications and uses. I must select moves that will encourage further investigation.

In the final analysis I am teaching a person how to teach as they are learning the practical material for useful application. My effort is a balancing act between keeping the student interested with practicality while providing instruction in more difficult or arcane mysteries of my truthes. Not everyone will be interested, and of those that are not everyone will understand, and of those that understand not everyone will want to accept full responsibility for what I am passing on. FWIW.

BTW: I appreciate the idea of using a title, but some things just get in the way of passing information back and forth. People who are my private students call me Mr. Sims as long as we are on the mat, and I am sure an occasional "master" slips in there now and again. Everywhere else, at any other time, for the rest of the world , its' "Bruce". I suspect it will continue like this for the balance of my KMA career. Thanks for asking though.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[kodanjaclay]

Mstr Sims,

I try to afford the proper respect, and if you have earned the title you should be referred to by that title. The fact that you do not require it speaks volumes in my mind.

[glad2bhere]

Thanks, Frank.

I appreciate your consideration. Maybe we can forego it for the time being. There are a lot of folks who might feel cautious about speaking their minds about something if they had to first get over some of the energy a title puts in the way. Thats not to say that other folks who want to be addressed in this way don't have the right to request it. For myself, though, it just seems to be one more thing to put between myself and others. I suppose its a matter of "I know what I know and here are my truthes" and attaching a title to what I say won't make the inaccurate more accurate or the less true more true.

Of course, I'm just talking about me. Everyone elses' mileage may vary. :D

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[sidekick]

Gentlemen, thank you for your informative responses. I understand were the thought process is coming from, but perhaps we are going a little to deep into the physiological aspects of the art and not addressing the practical application of the movement. To be fair to all parties offering input, to review the actual movement in person would go a long way in evaulating. The old saying that a picture is worth a 1,000 words would hold true in this respect. The question I asked Mr. Clay earlier is a prime example. It deals with common sense application. I will try to expound. Picture yourself, combative setting. A person on your right side starts to throw a punch at you. You turn to your right to defend against the punch. In the process of turning to face your attacker and at the same time defend against the punch, would you make the complete body turning motion, now facing your attacker, and then counter the incoming punch with a right hand middle block or would you in the process of turning, use a right hand outside middle block to protect yourself in the turning process. Now we are not talking about using anything other that the stated blocks, for that is the dictates within the form. Which block is the correct block to use?
These movements are very basic, but foundational.

Respectfully
Mike Dunn

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mike:

"........In the process of turning to face your attacker and at the same time defend against the punch, would you make the complete body turning motion, now facing your attacker, and then counter the incoming punch with a right hand middle block or would you in the process of turning, use a right hand outside middle block to protect yourself in the turning process. Now we are not talking about using anything other that the stated blocks, for that is the dictates within the form. Which block is the correct block to use?...."

I'm sorry, Mike; I don't mean to be obtuse but its just plain not that cut and dry.

You are attempting to define a form movement along only one line of reasoning and the forms are simply not for that. There is a lot more going on than just dealing with a person punching and you blocking. What is "right", what is "logical", what is "effective" all have to pay deference to what is stipulated. The fact that you are asking about this indicates that you are already using the form for what it is intended and the way it is intended. The only thing that I might suggest that you are doing wrong is seeking a definitive answer in a situation in which there isn't one. Sorry.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[sidekick]

Bruce, to me it is very cut and dry. Forms to me, the rational that was given to me, are an adjunct training tool. Many would have you believe that they have a seperate life to themselves. Perhaps in some disciplines that could be construed as such. My outlook is more puritanical. Forms to me are a way to practice definitive moves (blocks and counters), for combative conditions. These moves should and must have proper adapation for proper application. Practicing a movement that in all probability has a negitive affect is not conducive to good training. I realize that there are many that practice forms for the sake of the "art" side of the spectrum. Making it look nice for competition is 180 from making it applicable to combat. I respect your viewpoints, but I can't agree with going with what is "stipulated" over what is right, logical and effective.

Hopefully we can continue this discussion in the spring at the Mississippi gathering. Nothing better than a show and tell.:D

Mike Dunn

[glad2bhere]

Ah, well. Theres' the missing piece. We simply have different views on how forms are used and what their purpose might be. Nothing wrong with that.

Hope we can get together in Jackson. Its gonna be a great event!

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Jerusalem]

Only problem with the Taeguk patterns (in the above arguments), is that they are very recent. They are not adapted from older forms or used to put "battlefield techniques" into a usable format. They were designed to venture further away from the original Poomse and Chon Ji patterns that were either Karate kata by different names or very similar to those same Kata.

That said, I do believe that some of the motions that Sidekick was talking about are really not truly blocks. They are just taught that way to beginners and it just never gets changed in their minds.

[Kumsul Player]

Gentleman,

As I agree that the movements of the Taeguks are somewhat limited/flawed/confusing, keep this in mind; They were never meant to be more than what they are. Let's look back in the history of the TKD forms and the purpose of TKD (WTF system not ITF). When they established the WTF TKD, its main purpose was to establish a Korean martial sport. The forms of old, ie the Shotokan forms were then changed around to start the break away from their Karate root. (Here is where I tend to mess myself up) I believe there was one set of forms (chon-ji ?) prior to the palgues which looked almost exactly like the Shotokan, after that, the palgues came about which still had their Shotokan flare but less than before. During this time, of course, the TKD GM's wanted to emphasize the sparring more than the forms. Pretty much the attitude was keep the forms for tradition more than practical application.

Now, from what I have been told by a couple of the older generation Koreans is that the Taeguks were put together to prepair mostly for sparring techniques than practical usage (this is why most of them have the walking stance implemented). Again, this is what I have been told. You see they taeguks were just thrown together. I don't believe the powers that be placed a lot of thought behind them. Their main concern is sparring. I heard before that they considered getting rid of the forms all together. Now I have heard that they are wanting to make the forms more stronger. Who knows. The bottom line is that I wouldn't waste a lot of time thinking about the practicality of them, as the GM's sure as heck didn't. If it is a true thorn in your side then go beyond what you see and be creative in your interpretation...sometimes a block is a strike and a strike is a block. ;) Just adding a few pennies worth of thoughts.

[kodanjaclay]

Jeremy,

The ChungDoKwan and MDK for two began using the Pyung Ahn sets since their inception. The Chung Han Set comes from the Pyung Ahn, and in fact, Choi, Hong Hi did in fact receive an honorary dan ranking from the CDK in '55 under Sun, duk son. This is in my view why some of the Chung Han look so close to the Pyung Ahn... Won Hyo being very notable in that it is almost a carbon copy, with some changes, from Pyung Ahn EeDan.

[Jerusalem]

I believe it was Palgue-Chon ji-Taeguk. As far as implementation goes anyway. Of course...I've been wrong before :P

[kodanjaclay]

The Palgwe were created after the formation of the OhDoKwan. The construction series goes: Pyung Ahn, Chung Han, Pal Gwe, Taegeuk. The Pyung Ahn are typically only used by the TSD people today, though there are some Kwans that still allow them, Grandmaster Son in NYC is a notable example. Chung Han are primarily ITF. Pal Gwe were first created by the Kukki TKD group circa 1961 if memory serves. They were superceded by the Taegeuks, but are still considered supplemental training. The Chung Han predate both the Pal Gwe and the Taegeuk, and in fact the WTF itself. The Pal Gwe were created by either KTA or WTF, but I cannot remember which.

[Kumsul Player]

"Pal Gwe were first created by the Kukki TKD group circa 1961 if memory serves. They were superceded by the Taegeuks, but are still considered supplemental training. The Chung Han predate both the Pal Gwe and the Taegeuk, and in fact the WTF itself. The Pal Gwe were created by either KTA or WTF, but I cannot remember which."

Mst. Clay,

Thank you for that information. It was the Chung Han forms (not the Chon-ji form) that I was thinking of. Yes, the ITF still use the forms which are very much like their Shotokan presecessor, the WTF, however, made it a point to try and get a way from them. Though some schools will still practice the Palgue forms, the law of the land ie KKW and WTF, is that they are to teach the taeguk forms and "forget" the Palgue forms. As such Taeguks are the "official" WTF/KKW patterns. Which is too bad as I have always liked the Palgues more than the Taeguks.

[Jerusalem]

So Chung Han is the proper name for the group of forms often refered to as Chon Ji?

[Bugeisha]

As I understand it, the Palgwe and Taeguk forms for the WTF were designed largely as a political statement to differentiate Korean Taekwondo from it's Japanese martial roots. Korea and Japan aren't exactly the best of friends, eh?:bandit:
Of course, I'm no expert. There was a relevant article in the last few issues of Classical Asian Fighting Arts magazine, I believe, called Taekwondo: An Historical Appraisal . If anyone can get ahold of the article, it might be worth checking out.

[kodanjaclay]

I disagree. There is a concept called Kibun in Korean mudo. I think that rather than a political statement, it was more the work of Kibun in order to help develop a Korean sense of pride.

[jabbathehut]

look guys why worry about little flaws like that when your whole system is flawed -learn to use your hands properly and then worry about the minor flaws!

[Kumsul Player]

Originally posted by jabbathehut
look guys why worry about little flaws like that when your whole system is flawed -learn to use your hands properly and then worry about the minor flaws!

Thank you for that enlighten piece of advice......NEXT!

[kodanjaclay]

Jabba,

Spoken like someone who truly does not know what they are talking about:

1) All man-made systems are inherently weak, due to the errors committed by man in general. Not to mention that any system being applied is subject not only to any weakness within that system, but also to human error.

2) Not all systems of TKD fail to use their hands. What you are referring to is the sport form of TKD, which in fact does use hands, although in a minor capacity.

3) Each post must be signed with your real first and last name.

4) Please do not make a post which is intended to show either ignorance on the part of the poster, or to inflame other guests.

[Kumsul Player]

Mst. Clay,

This falls under the rule of thumb:

A waste is a terrible thing to mind.

I wouldn't stress out on this one. I have dealt with his kind many of times on the Bullshido forum

[jabbathehut]

Ahhh. dont cry about it girls ... Im merely stating that the Taekwondo fighters I have trained and sparred against fail to use their hands to their full potential concentrating too much on kicks means they are too easy to beat!

[Kumsul Player]

Well there you go. My bad. I didn't know you trained with every available TKD people outside your little world. You're right, it is far better to generalize with ignorance than it is to speculate with facts.

Oh by the way...what style do you teach?

[jabbathehut]

My Bad girls. Didn't know how wise and superior you were Taekwondo is truly the mightiest force on earth -that is why so many UFC champions use it for their stand up game.

(My Bad), -ignorance of the English language.

[glad2bhere]

Dear ????????:

Apparently your lack of appreciation of Korean Martial Arts generally, and Taekwondo specifically, extends well beyond your present behavior to include poor communication skills and a rife inability to follow instructions even when coached. If I am any judge of similar situations from the past you will continue to bait people here by addressing them as "girls" and casting aspersions on the arts they have selected to follow. For myself, personally, I am a keen fan of muay thai and while I find a number of short-comings in its practice as a lifestyle I would not presume to disparage it publicly.

Whatever other shortcoming TKD may have, I feel reasonably certain in saying that the preponderance of its practitioners, in my expereince, are known to conduct themselves with taste and decorum. Whatever advantage you may enjoy regarding your art--- no matter how imaginary---- your training has obviously left you berift of common courtesy.

Regards,

Bruce

[jabbathehut]

Your completely right glad2b, ive trained with my friend in Taekwondo for the past two years alongside my other training and have learnt alot from it -your kicks are awesome, i was bored and posted an observation of a short coming that I have noticed -had i realised it was such a sore spot for the Taekwondo community I would never have done so. I apologies whole heartedly, we will have to agree to disagree. Your art has many great qualities. good day gentlemen.

[Kumsul Player]

" i was bored and posted an observation of a short coming that I have noticed "

You posted the following:

look guys why worry about little flaws like that when your whole system is flawed...."

So is it the whole system, or the fact that TKD sport is flawed? Or the fact that the people you trained with didn't do it correctly? When you come with that type of statement then you will get a negative response. Simple.


-had i realised it was such a sore spot for the Taekwondo community I would never have done so. "

On the contrary. I tend to agree with you to some extent. Modern TKD is and always will be a sport. That was its conception. I have stated it, others have stated it. However, there was a time that TKD had a well rounded curriculum. To many people found it easier to teach the one area of it than the full thing. It happens in many arts. Again, I took up arms just because you approached this whole subject like a troll more than someone trying to contribute to the thread (which is still about flaws in the TKD forms). If you want to talk about other flaws in TKD post a new topic.

"apologies whole heartedly, we will have to agree to disagree. Your art has many great qualities. good day gentlemen"

All arts have something of value and something of flaws. It is natural state of things. BTW...calling me a girl does not get my dander up. I have been called a lot worse but my favorite as of last Thursday is Ninjaboy. :D

[jabbathehut]

Ok fair dooes -Ninjaboy.

[kodanjaclay]

Mr. Hutchins... forum rules require first name and last name. Initials don't count.

Thanks.

[jabbathehut]

spell my second name right **** and i might think about it!

[kodanjaclay]

Mr. Hutchings,

This is not a debate. This is no longer a request. You agreed to certain rules and you refuse to abide by them. You will now need to take this up with our webmaster; however, you will not be able to post again until you do so.

[Lord_Yong]

In 20 years of teaching, I have came to the conclusion that all traditional forms I've seen are flawed, because they contain useless, worthless techniques that will not work on the street. Front stances, horse stances, chambering the hands, it's all garbage in a real fight. You'll see lots of people from TKD or Karate backgrounds crossing over to more practical arts like JF/JKD but I have never witnessed a JKD person who felt the need to master the art of Tae Kwon Do for the purpose of learning how to fight. Face it guys, if you're doing a traditional art, then at least 50% of what you're teaching probably isn't good for anything but exercise, and in the process of repetition, you're building bad, wasteful habits that can get you hurt when you need it the most. WTF, ITF, doesn't really matter, the forms aren't going to give you skill in fighting.

Just my humble opinion from my experiences, not meant to offend anyone. I have a 5th dan in TKD from before I started more practical arts.





For those that practice the Taeguek Forms. Have you found any movements that you feel are not correct?



Respectfully
Mike Dunn

[kodanjaclay]

Well Mr. Yong, you do need to follow forum policies and sign each post with your real first and last name.

You can do this by going to your "CP" and setting up a signature.

[Lord_Yong]

Done! Is there a particular reason why a real name is required to get on here and chat and share ideas? I fail to see the purpose of revealing one's identity for the purpose of forum discussion.


Well Mr. Yong, you do need to follow forum policies and sign each post with your real first and last name.

You can do this by going to your "CP" and setting up a signature.

[Mandeigh Wells]

Done! Is there a particular reason why a real name is required to get on here and chat and share ideas? I fail to see the purpose of revealing one's identity for the purpose of forum discussion.


click here to find out more about the name rule (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6716)

[BBFC]

Lord_Yong I find it hard to believe that you’re a valid TKD 5th Dan making these claims. If you feel that TKD forms are totally useless then my guess is that you hold low rank, if not then turn your rank in.

Tkd forms have many uses even for self-defense, they teach you balance, focus, speed and coordination. I have training in TKD, Hapkido, Judo and Jujutsu but my 1st first prefer style is TKD. Since you obviously divorce yourself from TKD then do not state rank in the art.

[Lord_Yong]

I've cross trained, have you? Have you studied Jeet Kune Do under any of Inosanto's people? Until you have, you won't know what I'm talking about, and you'll continue to protest and defend forms that have no practicality. I used to defend them too, many years ago before I trained in any practical fighting arts, simply because it was all I had, and maybe I didn't want to process the fact that the ITF and WTF were both wastes of time for learning how to fight. (Yes, I'm certified under both.) No disprespect meant, but I'm coming from many years of experience in many styles, and yes, a 5th dan in TKD, which for fighting, does me almost no good as anyone experienced in practical arts can tell you.



Lord_Yong I find it hard to believe that you’re a valid TKD 5th Dan making these claims. If you feel that TKD forms are totally useless then my guess is that you hold low rank, if not then turn your rank in.

Tkd forms have many uses even for self-defense, they teach you balance, focus, speed and coordination. I have training in TKD, Hapkido, Judo and Jujutsu but my 1st first prefer style is TKD. Since you obviously divorce yourself from TKD then do not state rank in the art.

[SRK85]

The WTF froms are more for sport then for a realistic version of self defense.

[dadams]

Apologies for jumping on this thread a little late, but back to the original question by sidekick (Mike).

I believe that he was most likely referring to Taeguk Sah Jang (correct me if I'm wrong).

I used to wonder about the change as well, however this line of reasoning follows along an assumption that during the form, when you turn from your back to your opponent to face them and do a block that their attack is happening at the same time. In "reality" this will not always be the case. Once you have finished an attack on an opponent you will immediately turn to face your next opponent whether or not they themselves are throwing an attack at yourself at that instant. Once you have turned to face your attacker and have not needed to block instantaneously you have lost all body momentum and therefore are able to block with either hand in either direction for an attack that may occur slightly after you have faced them.
(I hope this is not too convoluted).

Whether or not this is what was meant by those who constructed the form is only for them to say.
However, the use of the technique could also be seen as a training aid early on in the students development (6th gup in most instances) of being able to make the body go in a non-intuitive fashion. eg. it's use can also be apparent in learning the co-ordination and control of your body.

Regards,
Damian Adams.

[FearlessFreep]

they teach you balance, focus, speed and coordination.

This has been my take on them. I still a very beginner (orange belt, which is just above white belt at our school..maybe 5 months experience) We use the Taeguk forms. I've never taken them seriously as anything about self-defense. To me, they help me learn footwork, coordination, balance, and concentration. They also represent sorta an abstract, idealized, 'perfect' representation of a given technique; when doing a block or kick, I tend to focus on hand, shoulder, hip, and foot placement as sorta what the technique should look like in an absract, artistic way. The don't teach me much about how to defend myself but they teach me how to focus my mind and control my body, which *does* help in other ways.

Just a newbies perspective

[DragonMind]

they teach you balance, focus, speed and coordination.

This has been my take on them. I still a very beginner (orange belt, which is just above white belt at our school..maybe 5 months experience) We use the Taeguk forms. I've never taken them seriously as anything about self-defense. To me, they help me learn footwork, coordination, balance, and concentration. They also represent sorta an abstract, idealized, 'perfect' representation of a given technique; when doing a block or kick, I tend to focus on hand, shoulder, hip, and foot placement as sorta what the technique should look like in an absract, artistic way. The don't teach me much about how to defend myself but they teach me how to focus my mind and control my body, which *does* help in other ways.

Just a newbies perspective

A good way of approaching them. Forms are a training tool just like a focus mitt, a kicking bag, or a shinai. You can get out of them useful things or you can dismiss them as irrelevant; your choice. Personally, I think they are useful as study aids. They aren't meant to be combat choreography but many times the flow of moves in a form can be useful for training your muscles to go from one technique to another. They also help sharpen your perceptive skills. There are many hidden strikes in forms as well as multiple interpretations of each technique. Looking for them can increase your skill at perceiving possibilities.

Even the lowly bow can have combat use. In Shaolin Kenpo we bow by placing the right fist in the left open palm and then bow from the waist. Consider someone grabbing your collar. Now the bow becomes a trap and break, followed by a takedown. I don't think anyone would propose bowing as a fighting technique, but there can be applications for almost every move. Your skill in MA increases as you learn to find them. That is the great loss of many who reject things like forms as being useless because they can't see beyond the surface. :bow:

[KUSA_KMG]

I think we need to remember that forms are for practicing balance, speed, power, concentration, memory, focus, etc.

They are not for self defense.

If you notice, the forms are all done in one direction, and mirrored to the opposite direction. When you are trying to make a symmetrical pattern, one that also makes a design on the ground, its going to be impossible to make it realistic. I mean, who is really going to spin 90 degrees and do a downblock to block a front kick in real life??? Its not about being practical, its about developing different aspects of yourself.

I mean, if you want to argue about things being akward, I would argue that it would be extremely akward to face 16 attackers, 8 of which attack you with the same technique as the other 8. Right?

Don't think of forms as being useful for anything other than developing overall performance and skill.