Pressure Points

[jabbathehut]

To anyone trained in pressure point fighting -dim mak etc
Have you ever used your training in a violent situation and how effective were they -no fantasy stories please, how did they fair honestly? very interested in pressure points and would just like to hear how effective they are?

____________________________________
M Hutchings

[wab25]

In my system, we work pressure points some. The idea isn't to disable the guy by using the "secret touch of death." They come into play when you are in a clench or on the ground and you need to get a little space. If you can surprise him with a good pressure point, it may give you enough room to start your move. They also come into play when blocking and striking. When blocking, the most common one is the nerves inside the forearm. If you always train to hit them when you block a round house punch, you have a better shot at hitting them for real. While this doesn't finish anything, it sure does cause a lot more pain than missing them, and if you miss the nerves, chances are you still got the block. When striking, if you hit the nerve, it just magnifies the pain. So, we learn where a few pressure points are, might as well get the most bang for your buck.

[jabbathehut]

Thanx for that- it makes sense how you use them, they sound well worth while learning just need to find a style that teaches them -what style do train in and what part of the world?

I train in Muay Thai in London.

[wab25]

This may come as a bit of a surprise, but I study Danzan Ryu Jujitsu.

Any good system of jujitsu or aikido will have pressure point knowledge. Also many good kung fu styles should have it as well. Probably, if you went to any "traditional" style of martial art, they have pressure points. Its the styles more oriented towards competition that drop them out, like muay tai, judo, TKD. I am not saying these are bad because of it, just a different goal. (also, not all muay tai, judo and TKD schools have dropped them, and not all are competition based )

[jabbathehut]

Yeah my gym does teach techniques for outside the ring like throws -grappling and some pressure points -I havent reached that point yet. But I was planning to start jujitsu at some point anyway so i will just find a school that includes a helpful amount. Our teaching in Muay Thai includes pressure point striking but not so much in the grappling sense.

[riku]

As wab says, there comes the question about definition...

If 'use of pressure points' means that there are some parts in human body that are more vulnerable than some other, then probably most MAs carry out teachings about pressure points: making straight arm-bar; stomping someone's foot; twisting flesh of flesh or armpit area; pushing opponent's sternum with knuckles... all can be counted as pressure point attacks by this definition.

On the other hand, if the use of pressure points means use of some system having vague and perhaps contradictory onthology behind techniques... Well, there have been argumentation about that subject - delayed death touch, cycle of destruction, etc - previously...


With respect,
Riku Ylönen

[Keep it real]

Well M, how effective are they? I thing that it depends upon your knowledge in that area, how often you train with PP in mind, recently one of my students was witness to a brawl when two guys squared up to each other, one guy throws a punch not very hard from a standing position no step back and step through. Lots of posturing. catches him between the lower and upper mandible on the side of his face and sparks him out, for 20 minutes. How did this weak punch cause such a great amount of affect?

Kevin

[Cliff Hargrave]

The nerves where the jaw attaches under the ear cause this. When you are hit in the jaw it pushes back on these nerves. Some people can take a powerful shot and some drop like that guy.

Interesting thing though, if you have a mouth piece in it can limit the movement of the jaw somewhat. So some people can take a pretty good shot in training with the mouthpiece, but in the street they get dropped with a good jaw shot.

I don't think there really is an answer on why it works so well on some and not on others. Just that everyone's body is different, so you should have a wide variety of tools at your disposal in a real fight.

[Jack Stay]

The nerves where the jaw attaches under the ear cause this. When you are hit in the jaw it pushes back on these nerves. Some people can take a powerful shot and some drop like that guy.

Interesting thing though, if you have a mouth piece in it can limit the movement of the jaw somewhat. So some people can take a pretty good shot in training with the mouthpiece, but in the street they get dropped with a good jaw shot.

I don't think there really is an answer on why it works so well on some and not on others. Just that everyone's body is different, so you should have a wide variety of tools at your disposal in a real fight.

Hi Cliff,

Something I learned from the 'boxers'. Along the jawline where the two bones meet to form the jaw is a 'suture', there is a 'suture' on either side of the jaw. These areas are what boxers call 'the buttons'.

If you run your hands down either side of your jaw, beginning just below the earlobe, you should be able to feel the spots where the bones join, located about two inches above the chin.

These are the 'buttons' where every boxer is trained to focus his punches, in essence, the 'pressure points' of boxing.

In the street, the experienced boxer aims for this area instinctively.
______________________
John 'Jack' Stay

[Cliff Hargrave]

I think I have been hit on those buttons a few times :)

"What happened? Why am I laying down?........"

[corsarius]

I think Cliff has the right of it with the observation that some things will work on certain people and not others. Everyone is constructed differently both on the outside (build etc) and on the inside (exact position of nerves, configuration of the nervous system). There is enough similarity across the board to make most pressure points attack on most people, but there will always be people that a particular attack doesn't work on.

This goes for both pressure point attacks and pain-compliance techniques. I train with a guy, for example, who literally feels no pain in any wrist lock, and so pain-compliance techniques don't work on him. Conversely, however, he seems particulary susceptible to pressure point attacks further up the arm.

Pressure points are a tool, but not the "ultimate" tool, and should be used as such. Choose the right tools for the job and you should do okay.

[Keep it real]

I think Cliff has the right of it with the observation that some things will work on certain people and not others. Everyone is constructed differently both on the outside (build etc) and on the inside (exact position of nerves, configuration of the nervous system). There is enough similarity across the board to make most pressure points attack on most people, but there will always be people that a particular attack doesn't work on.

Does that mean we are all different or all the same? Yes we all look different but we are built the same, we have all got the same Skeletal structure, muscle groups, nerves system, organs etc. Again I disagree, If, you apply the same test to a thin guy or a muscular guy an ensure that they follow the same reactions you will get a similar effect. The difference is in the regulation of the force necessary to hit the spot.

This goes for both pressure point attacks and pain-compliance techniques. I train with a guy, for example, who literally feels no pain in any wrist lock, and so pain-compliance techniques don't work on him. Conversely, however, he seems particulary susceptible to pressure point attacks further up the arm.

]Wrist locks our something different, in my experience if the wrist lock is not working, then you are not applying it correctly. PP striking should not be pain reliant. the neurological shut down does not need pain to make it work.

Pressure points are a tool, but not the "ultimate" tool, and should be used as such. Choose the right tools for the job and you should do okay.

Agreed they are not the ultimate tool. You have a choice strike the throat and kill them, or control them, which is the easiest? strike the throat.

Just food for thought.

KiR

[Cliff Hargrave]

Wrist locks our something different, in my experience if the wrist lock is not working, then you are not applying it correctly.

I kind of agree with this when you are talking about using a wristlock throw. If done right the techniques cause a skeletal lockup of the wrist, elbow, and shoulder, thus making the body follow. The problem runs into when you are using a the wrist lock as a pin or compliance tool and then the pain compliance issue comes up.

The biggest problem I see people making is when something doesn't work right, they just keep applying pressure harder and harder and the person escapes while you are concentrating on making that one thing work. You can usually tell pretty quick if something is working or not and if it isn't then it's time to switch to another joint. Years ago I broke a guy's wrist with a pain compliance - come along technique because he just didn't feel it. He ended up getting out of it AFTER I broke his wrist and I had to punch him. I should have just switched techniques and put him down and handcuffed him. Age and experience has changed alot of what I do.




PP striking should not be pain reliant. the neurological shut down does not need pain to make it work

That goes back to percentage of effectivness on people. Not everyone has the "neurological shut down" reaction. Some react to the pain, some to the neurological shut down (usually described as an electrical shock feeling), and some don't react at all.

[Erik]

I kind of agree with this when you are talking about using a wristlock throw. If done right the techniques cause a skeletal lockup of the wrist, elbow, and shoulder, thus making the body follow. The problem runs into when you are using a the wrist lock as a pin or compliance tool and then the pain compliance issue comes up.

Years ago I ran into this kind of thing when bouncing. I did the wrist leverage/come along where you face the guy squarely and put the guy's hand in such a position that his thumb faces away from him and his fingers point upward, pinky closest to the guy's body. His wrist is bent as tightly as possible, palmwards (opposite of the wrist position while doing a pushup). I used one hand to hold his in place and the other holding his forarm to control that. Then, I rotated the hand along the top arc so that the tips of the fingers turned toward him. Sure wish I could just link to a photo as it would be easier than describing this.


Years ago I broke a guy's wrist with a pain compliance - come along technique because he just didn't feel it. He ended up getting out of it AFTER I broke his wrist and I had to punch him. I should have just switched techniques and put him down and handcuffed him. Age and experience has changed a lot of what I do.

I expected the guy to drop to his knees but all he did was look at me in horror, his eyes got really wide and his jaw dropped, as if he were trying to ask me what the hell I was doing to him but couldn't muster the words. He did NOT drop to his knees and he did NOT move into a pinning position. He was clueless enough that he would have lost his arm first. This was not an acceptable outcome for the engagement, at least, not for me. :mad:


The biggest problem I see people making is when something doesn't work right, they just keep applying pressure harder and harder and the person escapes while you are concentrating on making that one thing work. You can usually tell pretty quick if something is working or not and if it isn't then it's time to switch to another joint.

Point of the story is that he did not behave as I expected (thanks SCARS/KFSS/HCS/whatever, :eek: but that's another thread) and I elected to release the leverage and go for something else instead of risking breaking his arm. I tried a collar choke against the wall, deep right hand in the collar with the ulna pressing against the neck and my elbow pushing back toward the wall, left hand pulling downward and inward, which did not knock him out as I had hoped. Looked like this but standing: http://www.judoinfo.com/images/katajuji.jpg

It did effectively pin him against the wall but this was more like just pressing someone against a wall and holding him 'til my buddies showed up. Clearly, I did it wrong. :eek:

Really tough question - when to persist vs. when to try something else. I've been working on this in BJJ. There's a guy whose guard is quite solid and I wind up being completely shut down when in it. He tells me afterward that I was almost out and should have kept trying the same pass but I had switched to something else. Other times, switching to a new move when one isn't working is obvious good sense. Tough to know when to do which, at least for me.

Anyway, that bounce turned out alright but nothing worked as advertised or as practiced. It was a very good lesson.


That goes back to percentage of effectivness on people. Not everyone has the "neurological shut down" reaction. Some react to the pain, some to the neurological shut down (usually described as an electrical shock feeling), and some don't react at all.
Amen to that.

I got my first KO on the street with a this choke http://www.judoinfo.com/images/ejc/kataha.jpg against the guy he was fighting at the time (who turned on me).

There were some important lessons from that one, too. :eek:
1) Drunks go out cold FAST. Something to do with less oxygen in the blood.
2) People come to very quickly if you don't hold them out long. By quickly I mean instantaneously. It's important NOT to let go of them as then you'll have to reacquire the choke, which implies giving up all the advantage you've already earned.
3) When they come to, they don't neccessarily know they were out. This guy kept fighting and didn't even realize I was behind him putting him out.

Anyway, sorry about the long story. Though I'm tooting my own horn here :bandit: (it's obnoxious, I'm sorry), I learned some very good lessons that helped keep myself in one piece during the years I was bouncing to pay for college. I hope others can learn from this, too.