Is there a difference?

[chris alabama]

Hello, I'm studying Tang Soo Do through the World Tang Soo DO Association, Jae C. Shin's group. I'm only an orange belt but I love it and plan to stay with it as long as I can.
But I keep seeing Moo Duk Kwan linked to Tang Soo Do, and I was wondering if they are different styles or the same. Sense I've been involved with The World Tang Soo Do Ass. I've not heard mention of Moo Duk Kwan as it relates to what we are learning, and I was just wondering about the link between the two. What can you guys tell me?

[Sgathak]

Chris, you need to post your real name with all of your posts... I know its in your profile, but the rules say it has to be on the post itself. Thanks

[kodanjaclay]

Well...

first off a kwan is an organization... a school as it were. Tang Soo Do is a style. Tang Soo do first surface in 1944 when Yi, Won Kuk opend the CDK. The MDK opened a short time later. CDK became TKD and a faction of the MDK became TKD as well. TSD MDK has evolved into two camps... tsd and sbd (soo bahk do). SBD is changing itself to be a softer art, formwise.

Hope this helps.

[Butch Voss]

Chris,
While I must disagree with Master Clay, Tang Soo Do is the
art we study, the style is Moo Duk Kwan. Like he said there
were different Kwans in the beginning that changed to TKD
and TSD. GM Shin was in Moo Duk Kwan. The way things are
now Tang Soo Do is basically the same in most schools but
there is a difference in the art from school to school, and you
will probably notice this the frist time you go to a Federation
torunament.
Tang Soo!!!
Butch

[glad2bhere]

Dear Butch:

Since I am not a TSD practitioner I must rely on your experience in these matters.

Have you found the variation among TSD schools to be attributed to differences passed down as stylistic differences or owing more to the differences in teaching practices and standards from school to school? For example are all hyung that are practiced the same from school to school with subtle priorities in execution, or are there significant differences with some schools cutting out or even adding hyung. Its hard to exactly describe what it is I am focusing on here but I am working to understand to what degree organizational affiliation determines curriculum as compared to the experience or priorities of a particular teacher. Is this coming across clearly?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[kodanjaclay]

Butch,

Historical precedent cannot be discounted. The MDK is not a style per se, it is a specific method created by Hwang Kee and attributed to the birthdate of Nov 9, 1947. Yi, Won Kuk first opened in 1944 under the provincial govornor Abe, and he first called his art Tang Soo Do. According to him, he taught Okinawa-Te. It wasn't until later that the arts began moving from the name TangSooDo and the original Kwans were then called Tae Soo Do. Choi, Hong Hi went ballistic, and forced the name change from Korea TaeSooDo to Korea Taekwondo. According to Uhm, Kyu Um and others, this began his downfall and resulted in the founding of the ITF, with their assistance. The Moo Duk Hae faction was headed by Hong Jong Zoo.. an interesting side note to this, is that the MDK, as an organization first tried to unify under KASA, and this effort was joined by Jidokwan. Hwang Kee lacking the clout of Choi, Hong Hi, failed. This is common knowledge, and not something I interpreted or created. Some of the sources include the txt written by Hwang Kee, and a TKD history, which I will be happy to send, as well as personal interviews, one of which included Yi, Won Kuk but I have since lost the transcript.

[Butch Voss]

This is a two part reply,
Master Sims,
The defferences can be from a slight hand placement in a form
to the forms being added to for competion reasons, to the forms being change altogether. Most and I say most of the time it is
done by the instructor, but I have noticed differences between
Org. also.
Master Clay,
I agree with what you are saying, I have read that history also,
but wouln't you say that if everyone was teaching what they called TSD and theywere teaching different techinques then
wouldn't each Kwan be a different style of the same art. I'm
not trying to insult a Master of your knowledge, I was just trying
to give advice to someone that wants to know the differences.
Tang Soo,
Butch

[kodanjaclay]

Nah Butch, I didn't take it that way. I was trying to make sure we are on the same page.

[Pale Rider]

I know that I haven't been in TSD as long as some.. I have noticed differences between the different schools of TSD.

For example : Pan-Am TSD, Kim's Karate (World Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do) - and others....

I see that even tho the forms are very similiar in nature, sometimes it could be the techniques themselves that differ.

What may be conisdered a "block" in one school may be something totally different in another.

Even though I have noticed that majority of the stances are pretty much the same in all of them. Some of the TSD schools use more "hip torque" then others, while some focus on other aspects.

I do believe that by looking at the foundation of the MDKTSD, and that the Moo Duk Kwan came from GM Hwang Kee - I see that most of the people in TSD are of an off branch of that Kwan. I don't see too many people who are in the CDKTSD.

The answer I see to the first basic question is simply. To see for yourself by going to different tournaments and watching the other schools that are in TSD, but in a different organization and see how they do the techniques.

Bill Richards

[chris alabama]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Very interesting stuff there.

I understand more now. I bought Grand Master Kang Uk Lee's Book on TSD and it explained the link alittle better than I got from my WTSDA hand book, and instructor.

I see some differences in the frist 3 hyungs in the book. They call them Kee Cho. We call them Sae Kye. And we have kicks were they have punches, or blocks when you turn to the middle. But same pattern, and stances.

But I've learned a few of the Pyung Ahn hyungs and they are the same. I love doing Pyung Ahn E Dan, It's the best form I've learned so far. I thank I do it to much and neglect my other forms, though.

But again thanks to to everyone.
Chris Payne

[Pale Rider]

About the Hyoungs...

I have them on my website available for download..

Kentucky Artist (http://www.kentucky-artist.com/karate.php)

I know that Master McHenry also has the forms available for download on his site as well..

That is another way that you can see the differences just in the hyoungs alone.


Here is Master Mac's download page...

Master McHenry's Hyoungs (http://mchenry.homeip.net/TangSooDo/forms/index.htm)

I hope this helps some...

Tang Soo!

Bill

[kodanjaclay]

Chris,

Are you ChungDoKwan?

[chris alabama]

The only name I have to describe what I'm studying is Tang Soo Do. So far that is the only name I have heard in class, or seen it referred to in the handbook. Grand Master Shin learned the art form Master Hwang Kee, so I'm going to say I don't study Chung Do Kwan. I don't know anything about that system/school.

What I'm kind of seeing is that Tang Soo Do is the system and the different Kwan are schools of that system. Kind of like saying Karate is the art, but there are different schools of karate. Am I right?



Chris Payne

[Pale Rider]

Well you are close....

Kwans are the schools themselves that teach the art.

What I have known and read is that for example GM Hwang Kee founded the Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do, but there were other forms of Tang Soo Do like the Chung Do Kwan..

Let's take for example the the kwans that are familiar.... like
Pan-Am TSD, World Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do Federation and others - they are basically pretty much the Moo Duk Kwan (as they are in my opinion an "off-branch" of the MDK.)

Even thou there are other kwans (english word translated loosely means "schools") - They will still be Tang Soo Do, and may even have totally different forms.

Like Tae Kwon Do - there are the ITF and the WTF and some of them trade the forms while others do not, but yet they are still Tae Kwon Do.

I hope this is helpful in some ways..

Pil Sung
Bill Richards

[glad2bhere]

Dear Bill:

Just a quick thanks to you for providing the links to your site and Master Macs'.

If you could give me a bit of time to compare and contrast the TSD hyung with the Japanese traditions would you be up for an discussion? I ask only because some people might consider this mixing apples and oranges. (Note to moderator: I also don't want to introduce material to a TSD forum if people might take offense when that comparitive material comes from the art of another culture. ) Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[kodanjaclay]

Bruce,

I would not see any harm it. The idea is to further knowledge and any intellectual study does that...

Chris, Tang Soo Do is simply the Korean pronunciation for Karaate-Do (Way of the China Hand). Kong SooDo is Korean for Karate-Do (Way of the empty hand). I asked about sa kye because I did not know that Hwang Kee ever caleld them that. Duk, sun-song teaches in NYC today, and I believe he still teaches the sa kye. He was the second president of the CDK, hence my curiosity. Anyone know when the name transition took place?

[Pale Rider]

Bruce,

I can offer what I know. The only thing that I have spotted with Tang Soo Do and you have to take this in consideration - is the differences. What I may say and believe may differ from the next person.

By studying the Pyong Ahn forms you find remarkable similiarites to the Japanese katas known as the Heinans. The only major differences of course is the hip torque! And of course alot of the stances aren't as deep.

I find that in my opinion that if you examine it that TSD and Japanese Shotokan is strikingly similiar, but there are subtle differences that do stand out.

There are those people who will be able to assist you in ways that I can't... Master Clay is more adversed in this field... ( and he is directly over my Sahbom Nim - Master Barker). But I will do what I can in assisting you if you would like.


Let me know... thanks
Bill Richards

[glad2bhere]

Dear Bill and Frank:

Many thanks for the encouragement.

What I see happening would be a comparison of Korean protocol with its Japanese or Okinawan counterpart. The idea is not a comparison to identify an ultimate way of doing the hyung/kata, but rather a comparison of biomechnics and the rationale for them. For instance, the opening to Naifanchi for me starts with a very large opening of the stance with the arms swinging L and R to meet at a point just over the groin. When I saw Mac perform this hyung on his website this movement was left off. The discussion might then ask from one side "why don't you folks do this movement" or from the other side "why DO you folks do this movement?"

Now, one thing that I noticed when Mac did his hyung, his hips moved up and down with his execution. In contrast I was taught that the height that ones' hips found themselves with the execution of the first technique is the height that was maintained throughout the form. However, I also know that some TKD styles subscribe to the SINE WAVE theory for generating power. Perhaps TSD subscribes to a similar idea, yes? Anyhow, this was the sort of thing I envisioned for the discussion. I think its very important for the idea of a "right"/"wrong" way of doing things not to enter into the exchanges so I am treading very carefully here. ;)

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[kodanjaclay]

Bruce,

I cannot speak for all, only for my own experience. I have always been taught, and always taught, that generally speaking the hips should stay within the same plane. There are exceptions, but those are rather obvious... such as a jumping or arial technique.

This is not intended to say that Mac is wrong. The beauty of any form lies within the adaptation of that form to the practitioner's body, in my opinion.

[Butch Voss]

Bruce,
I has been my exspeariance(sp) that the large and flowing
movements that you see have come about thru tournament
play. Now I'm not saying that you or you instructor have
done this but it might have been somewere back down the
line. A form opening is usually very short movement like it would be in real life. The changes have come about over the years
in most part for tournaments. I'm also not saying this is a bad thing only different.
Tang Soo!!!
Butch

[Pale Rider]

Bruce,

There is a difference between the "sine wave" theory and the basic hip torque.

Basically ( I am speaking from experience and from what I have seen) - most of the Tang Soo Do schools that I have encountered teach the "hip torque" more so then the "sine wave".

By comparing the katas performed by Shotokan and then looking at the hyoungs performed by Tang Soo Do - you will see that most of the ones in TSD will do the hip torque but not all will do the "sine wave" theory.

I myself, have examined the sine wave theory/principle and although it may have it's good points - I would rather just stick to the hip torque movement. By rotating your hips just prior to the execution of the techniques you will find that you can deliver more power vs just doing the technique without the hip torque.

As Master Clay as stated... keep your hips on the same plane, but just rotate them to deliver more power in your technique.

Say for example when delivering a San Dan Mahki (high block)
»ê´Ü¸· while you are in the horse stance.. it is a 2 point pivot.

Hope this helps...

pil sung

Bill Richards

[Mark Jorgensen]

Just a couple of quick notes:

WTSDA does indeed come from the Moo Duk Kwan lineage- GM Shin trained under GM Hwang Kee. Some of the more veteran masters still have the calligraphy for "Moo Duk Kwan" on their uniforms, if you know what to look for...

As to the Sae Kye Hyungs: We used to do the Ki Cho Hyungs, and I still remember them. In 1987, GM Shin and the association introduced the Sae Kye Hyungs into the curriculum, as a method of incorporating kicks into the first basic hyungs. it was felt that they better incorporated all of the aspects that a beginner was learning, including blocks, bunches, and kicks, rather than only blocks and punches. "Sae Kye" translates loosely as "World", implying "World Tang Soo Do Association"

I hope that clarifies things a little.

Mark Jorgensen
Sah Dan
World Tang Soo Do Association