Pepper Spray - Is there any consensus?

[John Bennett]

On a motorcycling forum I frequent someone mentioned pepper spray as an effective alternative to carrying a gun.

Is there any research on the effectiveness of pepper spray for civilian defensive use?

I did a search, but could only find data regarding its use during law enforcement activities.

My preconceptions are:

- It's no substitue for a gun (notice that cops who use pepper spray still have a gun on their hip).

- It won't stop a crazed or intoxicated attacker.

- Attackers who get sprayed with it tend to tackle their victims, thus smearing the stuff all over their victims as well.

- Predators only mildly interested in taking your stuff become enraged vengance-seeking madmen after being sprayed with it.

Does anyone here have experience using it in a defensive situation?

I've already heard plenty of testimony from my friends in the security and LEO business about how it hurts. I don't see that as completely relavant because, in those situations, the attackers being sprayed have very different motivations and fewer alternatives for retaliation.

[WolverineGuy]

If I'm being attacked, I want to immobilize my attacker, not irritate him. Just my two cents.

[DARKSON]

I think it could be usefull based on the particular situation. I wouldnt try it on somebody with a gun.

[Musubi Dojo]

I suppose it would be easier to run away from someone who's partially blinded. It woud probably be easier to stand back and land kicks to the legs as well. I have no practical experience to back this up though.

My training partner taught corrections for a few years including use of pepper spray and he high recommended going through training including having it used on you and being decontaminated, before using it. I think there are more variables involved (effective range, aimimg, wind direction, what to do if it ends up in your eyes by accident) than the untrained person would think of.

On the flip side my mail man gets issued a bottle to deal with dogs and his training consisted of "here, use this"

Cheers
c

[Jeff Burger]

I carried CS tear gas for years and never went anywhere without it.
This was back in my punky days too ,so i sprayed more than a few people.

Sure its not as good as a gun but its a big advantage to have on someone.

Jeff

[rubberband]

my queston concerning Pepper spray is its placement in the force level perameters for civilians... it is my understanding that civilians must fight at equal force levels for it to not be assault... where as LEO can go one level above... is pepper spray legally a weapon to only be used against other weapons? or is it a deterant that can be used on an unarmed attacker?

[Jeff Burger]

In my state its illegal.
You need to egt a FID card to carry it legally and god luck getting an FID card if you live in the city.
Mass has basically taken away the right to keep and bare arms.

Jeff

[DARKSON]

Move to FLA. We still drive around with shot guns in the windows of our pickup's. No permit required.

[Cliff Hargrave]

I am all for carrying it. As a matter of fact I was just planning on getting some for my wife and for me for off duty carry. Sure there are some people that seem to be able to take it but they are in a small minority. I have seen lots of folks spayed and only two or three that it didn't immediately effect. Even those had a delayed reaction to it. It just took a little bit for it to sink in. All of them will have their eyes shut and will be coughing. From a strictly civilian view point of self defense you should spray and run. A coughing, hacking, blinded person will probably have trouble catching you.

I have seen it save an officer's life when a crowd jumped on him at a club parking lot. I was his first backup and the first thing I noticed was this ten to twelve foot empty circle around him in the middle of the crowd. When he was on the ground getting booted he just sprayed in a big circle. I have also seen it completely clear out the local biker bar during a brawl.

[Musubi Dojo]

Move to FLA. We still drive around with shot guns in the windows of our pickup's. No permit required.

You guys are allowed to carry hand guns in plain sight as well aren't you? Thought I saw that on the news sometime ago...

[wab25]

I saw this TV show, I don't remember if it was Cops or one of the other real cop shows. Anyway, they had this guy in room where they finger print him and take his shoes, and there were 2 cops in there with him. The guy was handcuffed, but he got violent. One cop grabbed at him from behind, holding his cuffs. The other cop got his pepper spray and tried to spray the guy in the face. The guy ducked and the cop sprayed the other cop full in the face, point blank. The poor cop didn't even know it was coming, because he couldn't see it till too late. Anyway, aside from it being pretty funny to watch one cop spray the other by accident, BOTH cops kept fighting the guy and they finally controled him. ( after he got out of that room into the office area of the department.... )

Anyway, my first sensei saw that one of the girls in the class carried pepper spray and asked her if she knew how to use it. She said she went to a training course where they showed her how to spray and told her to spray in short bursts of a few seconds each. My sensei told her to forget that, spray until one of two things happen. The guy stops moving or you run out of spray. He said that most of the time, you will run out of spray first. ( He worked as a prison guard and got to be "volunteered" to break up prison fights, do cell extractions and just generally deal with the more violent guys in there, so he had lots of experience with people who want to do you harm )

[Sgathak]

Forget pepper spray - use oven cleaner!

[Jason H]

...but oven cleaner doesn't come in handy travel size canisters... ;)

[SRK85]

Good call peper spray is ok but guns are better

[Sgathak]

Well then Im claiming copyright/patent/trademark on the idea right now!!!:D :D :D

[Jason H]

Watcha gonna call it: "EZ-OFF The Bad Guys"? :p

[Jeff Burger]

"Well then Im claiming copyright/patent/trademark on the idea right now!!! '

I had a girlfriend used to carry bug spray in her car. THe big spray the next from far away can.
Oh...and a ball peen hammer.

Jeff

[Junon_taiso]

Did she hit you jeff? it's ok, you're safe here, let it all out.....

[Taliesin]

Reading your posts, i am soo thankful i don't live in America.

The thought of everyone carrying some sort of weapon, whether it is a gun, pepper spray, knives, swords etc, strikes fear into my heart.
I think can honestly say i don't know anyone who carries a weapon like that on a regular basis. The only person i know who actually owns a gun, shoots for the England small bore team.

I can understand why you all think its nessescary(sp?), but how many times have you actually been in a situation when you've really needed to use them?

[Jeff Burger]

"Did she hit you jeff? it's ok, you're safe here, let it all out....."

lol actually yes

She came to a self defense clas and then got more an more interested in MA ( strictly self defense stuff).
We were playing around one day "what would you if I id this) and I got hairspray in the face and groin shot.


But I highly recommend CS or pepper spray.
Sure it doesnt beat a gun.
But... it inflicts pain at a distance and unlike a knife or gun it doesnt cause permanent damage.
Lets say you end up in court. You want to be there for spraying someone with a safe irritant or stabbing them?

And it can be use for area of effect.
I had a friend was supposed to fight this guy.
I was there to watch his back and the other guys friends jumped in on it.
I would have been way out numbered so I just sprayed the whole pile.

I was in a car with someone who was driving realy crazy an wouldnt let me out. I threatened to fill the car with the spray and he woulnt stop so I did.
He stopped.

Yes it may enrage some people but you will still have a big adavtage.
I got into alot of fights back then and only a couple of people tried to come at me after being sprayed.

I wouldnt worry about getting it all over you if you end up grappling with someone you sprayed. Its just not the same as a blast in the face.
Id also recommend experiencing it.
Alot of friends I ha back them carried it, we seriously bought CASES of this stuff.
We all tasted it plenty of times.
Even knowing its coming and how painful it will be it still was pretty dibilitating.

Play with different products ( CS, CN and pepper )
Some spray far, some hurt alot more,some have only a short distance mist thats easily effected by the wind and check this out...some didnt not work in the cold weather.
MACE brand mace had a delayed reaction in the cold weather.
It would hit you and you would feel much then it would burn more as your boy temp warmed it.


Jeff

[DARKSON]

You have to have a concealed weapons permit to have a hand gun strapped to your waist but you just take a class and they give you a permit.

You dont need squat for a shot gun you just have to be 18yrs old.

[tkdcanada]

Originally posted by Taliesin
Reading your posts, i am soo thankful i don't live in America.

The thought of everyone carrying some sort of weapon, whether it is a gun, pepper spray, knives, swords etc, strikes fear into my heart.
I think can honestly say i don't know anyone who carries a weapon like that on a regular basis. The only person i know who actually owns a gun, shoots for the England small bore team.

I can understand why you all think its nessescary(sp?), but how many times have you actually been in a situation when you've really needed to use them?

Same here. I can't imagine living in a place where everyone carries some kind of weapon. Like you, I don't nor have ever known anyone who carries a weapon. It's just not done here.

[Jeff Burger]

I think its terrible living in a place where owning a gun is illegal.

Cause then only criminals will have them.

I moved to upstate New York when I was a teenager.
Almost everybody up there had guns you seldom heard of anyone abusing them.

In Boston its hard to own a gun but you hear about gun violence somewhere in the city every night on the news.
They are almost always illegal possesions.

Cold weather and stupid laws make we want to leave this state.

Jeff

[riku]

I go with tkdcanada and Taliesin this: I think it would be terrible to live somewhere where anyone can walk into K-Mart or somewhere and get a gun...

However, I admit that people kill each other here, too: Finland has rather strict firearm (and teargas) control laws - so most used weapon is cheap knife...

Riku Ylönen

[kage110]

I think its terrible living in a place where owning a gun is illegal.

Cause then only criminals will have them.

Without wanting to start a gun control debate I would like to point out that I am pretty sure that there are many, many more guns (legal or otherwise) in the hands of American criminals than is the case on this side of the pond.

In the UK gun crime is very rare and for most people can simply discounted as a credible threat. In the UK I feel no need to be armed with anything other than my wits in the places I frequent but I will occasionally feel inclined to carry a blunt instrument (torch) for protection. If I lived in many parts of the US I would be armed with a knife at the very least and a firearm if I could on the basis that I would hate to be the only unarmed person in a predominantly armed society - even if I felt there was no particular threat against me.

I do think that some of the reactions from UK residents (and the like) which express horror at the thought of weapons indicates a woeful lack of awareness of the real dangers that exist in all societies. This reaction is almost as disturbing as the 'I must be armed to the teeth because we are all in mortal danger' attitude expressed by some inhabitants of the US. Both reflect a certain lack of realism in the individual's view of the world.

[tkdcanada]

Originally posted by kage110


I do think that some of the reactions from UK residents (and the like) which express horror at the thought of weapons indicates a woeful lack of awareness of the real dangers that exist in all societies. This reaction is almost as disturbing as the 'I must be armed to the teeth because we are all in mortal danger' attitude expressed by some inhabitants of the US. Both reflect a certain lack of realism in the individual's view of the world.

I do think it boils down to what you have been exposed to and what kind of society you live in. If you have moved around alot like yourself and have lived in a variety of situations, you have a better appreciation for the different perceptions of self-protection. Without that exposure, you just can't fully appreciate the violence that exists in some places and being armed seems ridiculous. On the other hand, if that's all you know, the "I must be armed to the teeth" reaction becomes somewhat realistic. I do agree that both extreme views reflect a certain lack of realism, but I also think it's human nature to react in a way that reflects your exposure. Violent crime, murder, swarmings, beatings, even domestic assault is very low where I live and it makes headlines when it happens, thus my own view on carrying weapons. However, I can see both sides, I just can't imagine myself on the other side dealing with that everyday.

Oh, and regardless of law, I also agree with others that the majority of gun/violent crimes are committed with unlawfully acquired weapons....so the law here is really irrelevant.

But back to the thread on pepper spray. That's illegal here too...even the postal carriers aren't even allowed to have it anymore. My dad is a carrier and he used to carry mace, but now all the protection they have are clubs. Only police are allowed pepper spray. I can imagine pepper spray being a good thing to have though...no permanent damage, and if you spray in the right area (face) then it could slow down your attacker long enough for you to get away, as I think others have said.

What about stun guns? I don't know anything about them or the legalities, but I would think they would be good too since they are non-chemical and can stop someone without doing damage?

[wab25]

I live in the USA and I don't carry a gun. I don't even own a gun. ( aside from an airsoft pistol for MA training ) I live within 10 minutes of San Francisco, and have walked some of the most dangerous areas there. The neighborhood where I live has some gang problems and there are quite a few violent crimes that go on in the surrounding neighborhoods. However, most of the people I live around, don't own guns. My point here is that the US is not full of gun toting people. In fact, most people here live their whole lives without ever touching a real gun. ( the only ones they see are carried by police ) I think using your wits and being aware of your surrounding will help you 99% of the time. That other 1% can be handled by running. Sure, there are random shootings here, drive bys and school yards and postal workers. But, in reality, the shooting is over and done with before anyone realizes what happened. By that time, it is too late to pull your gun. You are better off being aware. If you have that feeling that says "something is going down," LEAVE. Don't hang out to see what happens. All those innocent bystanders get hurt because they are standing by a dangerous situation. Go home, and watch it on TV.

[Sgathak]

Among the Cossacks, they have a saying "My life is not my own, it belongs to my friends and family."

Many people carry weapons, deterants, and so on for their own protection. I do not. I can take care of myself just fine thank you. Even working security in a heavily drug /gang filled complex I dont feel the need to be armed for my own protection. However, when I go out with friends and family, I do arm myself, if only with a knife. Because you never know when someone might do something stupid, and I never know when I might need to, you know, actually USE some of that training I put myself through.

A man went to go pick up his daughter after a choir practice, he left his pistol at home thinking that he would just be gone a few minutes, and he was going to the church after all. What could happen? While he was there, a man whos wife had just recieved full custody of his daughters due to his mental illness (schizophrenic and bipolar) had entered the church a few seconds later and began shooting... (with a gun he bought illegally as those with a history of mental illness cannot buy a gun). The first man, who left his pistol at home watched his daughter get shot, and then watched several other children get shot, and all he could do was lay on his daughters body protecting her from any more damage. He was a former cop, and a combat pistol competition champion. He could have easily saved the lives of many children, as well as a few adults, had he only picked up that pistol - which he legally had the right to carry.

My life is not my own, it belongs to my friends and family, I can die myself, so long as I save them.

[Taliesin]

What a dreadful thing to happen. Had the sequence of events been different.....

I do understand the reasons behind the need to carry a gun in a society where the majority of people have them. I'm also not knocking anyone who does.
The right to bear arms etc, and the deterrent factor. But yet again I'm glad I don't live in that sort of society.

The word 'inevitability' echoes in my head and I wonder what will be the 'norm' when my children are older. Will they have to buy a gun?
But on the other hand what is a weapon?
Pepper spray can be very effective, as is oven cleaner, (ha ha) hair spray, wasp spray etc but as far as I know nobody has died from it.
Most things in my handbag could be a potential weapon, keys, perfume, pen, tweezers even my hairbrush.
I used to walk home late at night with my keys between my fingers, but this would be seen as premeditated and whoever attacked me could sue me for inflicting bodily harm!
How mad is that?

[wab25]

I was trying to point out that not many people here run around with weapons. ( at least not anything more serious than a set of keys ) Even people who carry small pocket knives are harder to find than you would think. Those here that "need" to carry a weapon need it for the image they think it gives others. ( the whole tuff guy image )

[Taliesin]

Understood Wab. lol

You must think I believe everything I see in the movies...

I have been to San Fransisco, I didn't see anything that resembled an uzi. ;)

Lucy Rymell

[kage110]

Among the Cossacks, they have a saying "My life is not my own, it belongs to my friends and family."

<snip>

My life is not my own, it belongs to my friends and family, I can die myself, so long as I save them.

I share this thought to a great extent. In many walks of life I equip myself to deal with situations (first aid kits, extra mountaineering equipment, tools, etc.) that other people might find themselves in. It serves to keep me better able to survive but experience has shown me that I rarely have to help myself get out of trouble but I have had to help others at times. I haven't had to defend anyone from attack yet and hope I never will.

[RA Miller]

Back to the original question...

John, OC is a tool, not an answer. It is normally incapacitating, reliable, can cover a lot of people and if you do screw up (as in it goes off in your pocket) there's no permanent injury.

It works on most people to varying degrees. In over twelve years I've seen one person that didn't even close his eyes (and he pulled six concrete screws out of the wall with his fingers so that he could break the stainless steel mirror in two and have two shanks) the rest, whether crazy, methed up or whatever, at minimum couldn't see worth a damn. It is much easier to fight (or run from) a blind threat.

There are a lot of variables with advantages and disadvantages: spray, stream or foam; propellant; carry.

It gives a non-lethal but ranged response, which fills a gap nicely.

Rory

[Jeff C.]

What Rory said!

Pepper spray will always blind if you hit the eyes. 100 percent of the time. It's easier to get away from an aggressive blind person, or fight them.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[John Bennett]

Thanks for the info guys. The consensus seems to be that pepper spray is good stuff. I'll go with that.

Sorry for the late reply. I had lost track of this thread.

[StanLee]

How about the pepper spray used in the movie Shrek 2?

[jjaje]

I took my family to the zoo this past weekend. A zoo employee feeding some monkeys had a holster and can on her belt. I asked if it was pepperspray, she said all people who work with mammals carry it, from the small prarie dogs to the monkeys, chimps and gorillas. They carry no gun, and are trusting in its affectiveness.

[jjaje]

I do understand the reasons behind the need to carry a gun in a society where the majority of people have them.

It's really not the wild west out here, with everybody and their dog packin' "heat".

[Mart]

hehe, im so glad i dont live in America. We dont have guns in the UK and we dont need them. THnak God.
I dont carry any weapons in london. Some criminals do but its not to big a problem, probably because guns are illegal which ha sto be good thing.

[Mandeigh Wells]

hehe, im so glad i dont live in America. We dont have guns in the UK and we dont need them. THnak God.
I dont carry any weapons in london. Some criminals do but its not to big a problem, probably because guns are illegal which ha sto be good thing.

what planet are you living on? we don't have guns yeah right.

and I believe you have been told before to sign your posts as per the rules which you agreed to when you signed up to Budoseek....

[Cliff Hargrave]

hehe, im so glad i dont live in America. We dont have guns in the UK and we dont need them. THnak God.
I dont carry any weapons in london. Some criminals do but its not to big a problem, probably because guns are illegal which ha sto be good thing.

Good to see you don't have guns in the UK. I guess these stories are all false then.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1741336.stm

http://www.gunnewsdaily.com/rw711.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2144434.stm

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/story.jsp?story=364549&dir=506&host=3

[Carl Martin]

I think it's kind of funny that others view Americans as gun toting tuff guys and we're all armed to the teeth. It's pretty much up there with all British having bad teeth, all Aussie's males playing rugby and drinking fosters, and all Canadians being hippies. :D Stereotypes are fun.

My actual question is about the shelf life of PS. My instructor says that the only problem with pepper spray is that after a few months or years it has about the same potency as Bianca? Is that true?

[Cliff Hargrave]

My instructor says that the only problem with pepper spray is that after a few months or years it has about the same potency as Bianca? Is that true?

No, but in some cases the propellent can slowly leak over a long period of time and you will end up with a can that doesn't shoot. Probably not a bad idea to replace your can every three or four years.

[Mart]

Im sorry but gun cirme isnt a problem here, not compared the lunacy in the states. Yes there is some, of course there is. but its not so bad. There is no discussion for civilians to be armed, that just would be crazy. Im sure Americans arent gun toting, but they sure are obsessed with them.
Martin Staffwater

[Oz82]

Im sorry but gun cirme isnt a problem here, not compared the lunacy in the states. Yes there is some, of course there is. but its not so bad. There is no discussion for civilians to be armed, that just would be crazy. Im sure Americans arent gun toting, but they sure are obsessed with them.
Martin Staffwater

I'm not sure if we're gun-obsessed, or y'all are gun-phobic. Heck, you seemed to be threatened by a picture of a gun on another thread!

But seriously, if you do a statistical map overlay of gun crime and restrictive gun laws, you'll find that they correspond eerily well. When the criminals are sure that the law-abiding citizenry aren't armed, they're much bolder about using their own illegal firearms. Maybe this wouldn't correlate in parts of Europe, since those countries haven't trusted their citizens with real gun rights in modern times. In the US, however, there will always be ways to obtain a gun no matter what laws are passed.

Back to the point of the thread; do any of the knowledgable people here have a brand (or "flavor") favorite? My LEO uncle always carries the MACE brand, but I think it's because that's what his PD issues.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Im sorry but gun cirme isnt a problem here, not compared the lunacy in the states. Yes there is some, of course there is. but its not so bad. There is no discussion for civilians to be armed, that just would be crazy. Im sure Americans arent gun toting, but they sure are obsessed with them.
Martin Staffwater

You sure do make alot of sarcastic comments in almost all of your posts. If you are trying to make new friends then you are failing.